Fatal shooting Charleston SC

[JughedJones]

I have never seen this or had this happen close to home much like others haven't. But I have seen other events that was very upsetting and it really makes your heart hurt for people going through this. One thing I do believe we need to do as a country is quit saying this won't happen to me or happen in my area. You have to be prepared for anything anymore.

How do you intend to 'prepare' for something like this, good sir?

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[JughedJones]

Question for anyone that might know... when was the last time there was a clearly racial white on black mass crime (terrorism) like this? I can think of the Birmingham church bombings of the 60s, but I know there must be many other examples since then I'm not remembering. What was the most recent one?

If you look at the amount of hate crimes, and the amount of violent hate crimes, acts against 'black' people are the far and away 'winners.'

If you dissect it by percentage of population, Jews are still getting shit on #1, but not at the violent rate that black people are. Gay people get that award by far.

So. Yay?

 

[NDgradstudent]

If you look at the amount of hate crimes, and the amount of violent hate crimes, acts against 'black' people are the far and away 'winners.'

If you dissect it by percentage of population, Jews are still getting shit on #1, but not at the violent rate that black people are. Gay people get that award by far.

So. Yay?

Alas, the FBI does not tell us what the race of the perpetrators is in those "hate" crimes. It would be idle to assume they are all white.

If you want to look at all crime, not just "hate" crime (as opposed to all those murders committed by non-hateful people) there is a massive disparity. In 2013, there were 409 whites murdered by blacks and 189 blacks murdered by whites. Given the relevant population sizes, a white person is nearly fifteen times more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a white person.

At some point, reality needs to intrude upon The Narrative.

 

[JughedJones]

Alas, the FBI does not tell us what the race of the perpetrators is in those "hate" crimes. It would be idle to assume they are all white.

If you want to look at all crime, not just "hate" crime (as opposed to all those murders committed by non-hateful people) there is a massive disparity. In 2013, there were 409 whites murdered by blacks and 189 blacks murdered by whites. Given the relevant population sizes, a white person is nearly fifteen times more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a white person.

At some point, reality needs to intrude upon The Narrative.

And there's this guy again. I was hoping you'd come back.

Please... go on.

Tell us about the terrible injustice that the white man must persevere through. I'd love to hear about it.


(by the way? your interpretation of statistics is fascinating.)

I must tell you. With every post, I doubt the sincerity of your username.

 

[pkt77242]

Alas, the FBI does not tell us what the race of the perpetrators is in those "hate" crimes. It would be idle to assume they are all white.

If you want to look at all crime, not just "hate" crime (as opposed to all those murders committed by non-hateful people) there is a massive disparity. In 2013, there were 409 whites murdered by blacks and 189 blacks murdered by whites. Given the relevant population sizes, a white person is nearly fifteen times more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a white person.

At some point, reality needs to intrude upon The Narrative.

Since you aren't stupid, I will assume that you are purposefully missing the point. It isn't a hate crime to kill someone who is a different race. It is a hate crime to kill them because they are a different race. The numbers that you are using have nothing to do with hate crimes.

Also does anyone else here think that magogian and NDgradstudent are the same person?

 

[JughedJones]

Since you aren't stupid, I will assume that you are purposefully missing the point. It isn't a hate crime to kill someone who is a different race. It is a hate crime to kill them because they are a different race. The numbers that you are using have nothing to do with hate crimes.

Also does anyone else here think that magogian and NDgradstudent are the same person?

 

[Cackalacky]

Question for anyone that might know... when was the last time there was a clearly racial white on black mass crime (terrorism) like this? I can think of the Birmingham church bombings of the 60s, but I know there must be many other examples since then I'm not remembering. What was the most recent one?

Lax, I don't have time to muddle through the particulars, but here is the Southern Poverty Law Centers Docket on "Hate and Extremist" cases they are involved in.

Case Docket | Southern Poverty Law Center
While I don't see many that were perpetrated against the numbers of people as in Charleston, there are some pretty gruesome events described herein. I cannot recall any in my lifetime here in SC that were this heinous but there are numerous ones I know of that occurred which would be classified as such if SC actually had a law that allowed them to warrant further attention. Many of the hate crimes reported now dont end in death, involve two or fewer victims or result in property damage. This is one I remember clearly from 1995 from Macedonia, which is located about 20 miles north of Charleston in the Francis Marion Forest:

A church burning
On the evening of June 21, 1995, members of the Christian Knights poured flammable liquids on the floor of a 100-year-old black Baptist church, ignited a fire and watched the building go up in flames. The structure was completely destroyed, but the spirit of the congregation was not.

The Center brought the case on behalf of Macedonia Baptist Church, one of several rural black churches burned by arsonists in the mid-1990s.

A South Carolina jury awarded the largest judgment ever against a hate group. The Christian Knights of the KKK, its state leader, and four other Klansmen were ordered to pay $37.8 million, later reduced by a judge to $21.5 million, for their conspiracy to burn a black church.

The civil judgment forced the Klan to give up its land and headquarters. When the property was sold, the deed included a restriction that the land never be used for white supremacist activities.

The judgment in this case transformed the Christian Knights from one of the most active Klan groups in the nation to a defunct organization.



Co-Counsel:
Ricci Land Welch
Tom Turnipseed

Date(s) of Disposition:
12/29/1997: Case amended
07/24/1998: Judgment for the plaintiffs (award later reduced)

Its really hard to put a frame around it or gauge its severity as I know from first hand accounts reported to me by my and my wife's grandparents that violence against whole black communities was not uncommon before the Civil Rights Era. These of course would not be recorded or documented in a manner as to describe the true nature of the events.

The bombings in Birmingham were pretty bad and if I recall there were 4 or so in a matter of weeks. Violence against black churches has a long history spanning hundreds of years.

I understand some posting here will find this a less than compelling post but nonetheless the legal precedent is well established due to the nature, quantity and victim identities.

 

[NDgradstudent]

And there's this guy again. I was hoping you'd come back.

Please... go on.

Tell us about the terrible injustice that the white man must persevere through. I'd love to hear about it.


(by the way? your interpretation of statistics is fascinating.)

I must tell you. With every post, I doubt the sincerity of your username.

Since there is no challenge to the accuracy of the figures, nor to my calculation (it is not an "interpretation," it is a fact) this is what we get: pointing and sputtering.

Since you aren't stupid, I will assume that you are purposefully missing the point. It isn't a hate crime to kill someone who is a different race. It is a hate crime to kill them because they are a different race. The numbers that you are using have nothing to do with hate crimes.

Suppose I killed a black lawyer from Delaware. If I killed him because he is black, that is worse than killing him because he is a lawyer, or from Delaware, when I hate lawyers and people from Delaware? Should hate crime laws be expanded to include hatred against places and professions? This devolves so rapidly in a round of the oppression Olympics that it makes a mockery of the idea of equality before the law.

Certainly in practice "hate crimes" are only said to be committed against certain designated victim groups. For example, the 2010 Connecticut office shooting where a black guy killed eight people -and did so because they were "racist"- was not classified as a hate crime. To the contrary, it was actually blamed on white people! So the statistics on this score are highly suspect, because of the dubious way law enforcement agencies classify these crimes.

 

[Cackalacky]

Just a few of the recently reported incidents

Newberry, SC
The New Black Panther Party marched in response to the dragging death of a black man.
Type: Rally
Reported: 07/16/2010
Newberry, SC
A man was arrested for murdering a black man and dragging the victim's body behind a pickup truck.
Type: Murder
Reported: 06/02/2010
Florence, SC
Three men were sentenced for threatening a black man with a chain saw in December, and taking his car and then using a gun to threaten two white men who were attempting to help the victim. Thomas Howard Blue Sr., 49, was sentenced to 156 months in prison; Thomas Howard Blue Jr., 29, was sentenced to 36 months; and Judson Hartley Talbert was sentenced to 108 months.
Type: Legal Developments
Reported: 04/19/2010

Alabama has some doozies......

oh and here is one reported of a mob of black men vs a white guy so they do get reported:

Seneca, SC
Between 15 and 20 black men allegedly used racial slurs and beat a white man leaving a restaurant. Teryn Robinson, 18; Tray Holland, 19; Justin Alexander, 20; Derick Williams, 22; Kino Jones, 25, and Monrez Jones, 22 were charged with assault and battery by a mob.

.

Again, its not always about race vs race but the MAJORITY vs the MINORITY.

 

[IrishLax]

Lax, I don't have time to muddle through the particulars, but here is the Southern Poverty Law Centers Docket on "Hate and Extremist" cases they are involved in.

Case Docket | Southern Poverty Law Center
While I don't see many that were perpetrated against the numbers of people as in Charleston, there are some pretty gruesome events described herein. I cannot recall any in my lifetime here in SC that were this heinous but there are numerous ones I know of that occurred which would be classified as such if SC actually had a law that allowed them to warrant further attention. Many of the hate crimes reported now dont end in death, involve two or fewer victims or result in property damage. This is one I remember clearly from 1995 from Macedonia, which is located about 20 miles north of Charleston in the Francis Marion Forest:

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. Topic came up in discussing the Jon Stewart monologue on the crime, where he starts off by saying something like "...if this wasn't so common..." and "...it's it's not unthinkable or unimagineable..." and in talking about it we could name dozens of mass shootings off the top of our head.

But we couldn't come up with an example of a mass killing that was also strictly race-motivated, except for the Birmingham church bombings of the 60s. It seems like this kind of -- for lack of a better term -- racial genocide is incredibly rare. There are lots of examples of a group of people targeting a person or a couple for a hate crime... but not many where one person opts to try to commit mass murder of a larger group.

This is the first time in my lifetime (and probably the lifetime of most people posting on this board) that something quite like this has happened.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

To the contrary, it was actually blamed on white people!

I don't read it that way. He's not portrayed as a victim in the article. He's portrayed as a murderer who snapped.

Let's agree that victim blaming is silly.

Charleston shootings: NRA blames victims as reactions echo Newtown | US news | The Guardian

 

[pkt77242]

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. Topic came up in discussing the Jon Stewart monologue on the crime, where he starts off by saying something like "...if this wasn't so common..." and "...it's it's not unthinkable or unimagineable..." and in talking about it we could name dozens of mass shootings off the top of our head.

But we couldn't come up with an example of a mass killing that was also strictly race-motivated, except for the Birmingham church bombings of the 60s. It seems like this kind of -- for lack of a better term -- racial genocide is incredibly rare. There are lots of examples of a group of people targeting a person or a couple for a hate crime... but not many where one person opts to try to commit mass murder of a larger group.

This is the first time in my lifetime (and probably the lifetime of most people posting on this board) that something quite like this has happened.

While it wasn't about "race" the Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin is pretty close.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting

 

[GoIrish41]

While it wasn't about "race" the Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin is pretty close.

This is what I thought, too.

 

[IrishLax]

While it wasn't about "race" the Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin is pretty close.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting

Man, I hadn't even heard about this. How did I possibly miss this? It's almost 100% analogous.

How many more things like this have happened?

 

[phork]

Riiiight I see. Because you expect these things to happen in the sanctity of a church. Unreal. The NRA are really and truly a bunch of boobs.

 

[Redbar]

Man, I hadn't even heard about this. How did I possibly miss this? It's almost 100% analogous.

How many more things like this have happened?

Not sure but here are a couple more

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ish_Community_Center_shooting&oldid=664018607

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Baumhammers&oldid=666495596

 

[Cackalacky]

Reports coming in that Nikki Haley is brokering a deal to remove the Confederate Flag permanently. I need verification, but its out there gaining traction.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Reports coming in that Nikki Haley is brokering a deal to remove the Confederate Flag permanently. I need verification, but its out there gaining traction.

Reports that Graham will also call for its removal.

Lindsey Graham to call for Confederate flag to come down - CNNPolitics.com

 

[Bluto]

Man, I hadn't even heard about this. How did I possibly miss this? It's almost 100% analogous.

How many more things like this have happened?

A white supremacist shot up a Jewish daycare center in LA in 1999.

 

[gkIrish]

Reports coming in that Nikki Haley is brokering a deal to remove the Confederate Flag permanently. I need verification, but its out there gaining traction.

I really don't know the history behind the flag and what it stands for today.

That being said, I'm hardly ever in support of taking action as a REaction to an event. If the flag needs to be removed, it should be done when emotions aren't at an all-time high and the local government can actually make an objective decision.

 

[ACamp1900]

I do have a possible concern about the flag momentum... and I won't argue for keeping the flag(s) up but as a student of history I do worry what I fear the next step may be. There were good people that fought and died for the Confederacy, there were. Is the next step to take down statues of, for just one example, James Longstreet?? That would be a shame imo as I would view it as wrongfully taking good men (some, not all, just like any army ever) and throwing them out with the bath water… I hope it doesn't get there...

 

[Cackalacky]

I really don't know the history behind the flag and what it stands for today.

That being said, I'm hardly ever in support of taking action as a REaction to an event. If the flag needs to be removed, it should be done when emotions aren't at an all-time high and the local government can actually make an objective decision.

While I understand where you are coming from, its most definitely time for it to be relegated to a museum and it isn't really a reactionary move at this point. For almost 40 years the lifers (that have been around since the Civil Rights ERA and their ideological disciples) in the State legislature have not been able to be budged except to the most recent compromise. Keep in mind to that the reason it went up in the first place was in 1961 to celebrate the Civil War Centennial. That is the narrative that will be trotted out as a main defense. The real reason is the Dixicrats and Strom Thurmond wanted it up to facilitate and symbolize the de-facto state of segregation and maintain Jim Crow laws and invoke a visual defiance to the Civil Rights Movement. Thus it has become a symbol of segregation in addition to its documented symbolism from Civil War days. I definitely recommend reading up on the symbolism of the blue and white cross (later rotated to the "X"), the red background, and the variations adopted by different states over time.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Sometimes decisions need to be made when the emotions are very raw. The public at large is interested right now.

 

[IrishLax]

I do have a possible concern about the flag momentum... and I won't argue for keeping the flag(s) up but as a student of history I do worry what I fear the next step may be. There were good people that fought and died for the Confederacy, there were. Is the next step to take down statues of, for just one example, James Longstreet?? That would be a shame imo as I would view it as wrongfully taking good men (some, not all, just like any army ever) and throwing them out with the bath water… I hope it doesn't get there...

Around here, we have many high schools named after Confederate generals. Heck, if Robert E. Lee hadn't have sided with his home state he would've led the Union forces. It's revisionist history at best to paint the Union as "good" and Confederacy as "evil"... akin to how the sides are shades of grey in Game of Thrones.

With that being said, the Confederate flag is a symbol of Confederate ideals and principles... a defining one of those being racial slavery. It's hard to find any rationalization for why that flag should be flown.

 

[ACamp1900]

There are no shades of freaking grey in GoT!!!!!! The Starks are the good guys.




.

 

[kmoose]

Reports coming in that Nikki Haley is brokering a deal to remove the Confederate Flag permanently. I need verification, but its out there gaining traction.

I think it's great that there is movement on removing it, but I think a lot of people are deluding themselves into thinking that doing so will somehow make a difference in how many dumbasses go out and shoot up black churches. If it makes a difference for one, it is worth it. But I suspect that more people who have racist tendencies will blame black people for the loss of their symbol, than will rethink their views on race.

 

[Cackalacky]

I think it's great that there is movement on removing it, but I think a lot of people are deluding themselves into thinking that doing so will somehow make a difference in how many dumbasses go out and shoot up black churches. If it makes a difference for one, it is worth it. But I suspect that more people who have racist tendencies will blame black people for the loss of their symbol, than will rethink their views on race.

You mean ....any more than they already blame black people for any of their other numerous reasons they have? Like for existing in the first place? Taking over the country? Liberalization of America through rap music?

 

[NDgradstudent]

Reports coming in that Nikki Haley is brokering a deal to remove the Confederate Flag permanently. I need verification, but its out there gaining traction.

The American flag comes down, too, when people complain. Many people consider it offensive.

The question is whether the South Carolina legislature will represent the people of South Carolina, or not.

 

[IrishLax]

NFL's Benjamin Watson: Remove The Confederate Flag For The Right Reasons

Benjamin Watson for President.

 

[Cackalacky]

The American flag comes down, too, when people complain. Many people consider it offensive.

The question is whether the South Carolina legislature will represent the people of South Carolina, or not.

You can continue to throw out stats on the popularity of removing the flag from various states but at no point in the history of this country has Civil Rights issues benefiting the MINORITY been determined and achieved by popular vote. To the contrary, predominantly most all Civil rights issues have been determined by the state and federal governments that legislates such changes for better or worse.