Everything Soccer

[Old Man Mike]

Hello, again. Another naive question which some might feel worth entertaining themselves enough (since there's not a lot better to do) and answer/debate:

I just finished watching ManU vs Celta Vigo (I probably can watch ManU easier than most here due to my Johnny-come-lately status --- I don't view them with the dislike I used to view the New York Yankees, for instance.) Anyway, they played a decent game and there in the middle of it all was this guy, who I gather a lot of folks (even here) dislike (Fellaini --- I don't even know his first name.)

Because I value defense, and strength, and selfless good-of-the-team behavior and effort, I couldn't help but become fascinated with what this guy was doing (often goal-to-goal ranging). Obviously my naive eyes were giving me a bad impression, because he looked AWFULLY GOOD to me in that game. He worked his a$$ off and by the 80+ minute was gassed but still was warrioring it out.

Finally the play announcer said something (almost not followed up) about people having mixed views about what Fellaini brings to the team. Alexi then, in a not-like-alexi way, gave him some "props" as being more than a big bully but a guy which lots of foot skill --- but saying it in a way which contained so little energy (that was unlike Lalas) that I couldn't tell if Alexi or the commentator believed Fellaini was exceptional or particularly valuable or what.

Anyway, I watched his every move for many minutes --- very strong (maybe only the freak Ibrahimovic is obviously stronger), very aware and intuitive defensively, surprisingly good at imitating a number 9-type "receive the long ball and drop it at your feet while walling off the opponent", getting almost every defensive header on set pieces. On the set piece free kick goal: Celta Vigo set a wall and Fellaini walked over to the end of it. As Blind made a false run leaving Rashford to kick, Fellaini leaned sideways onto the end CV defender --- it held that guy to the ground (subtly without hands) and he couldn't jump. Rashford's ball went over the area and into the nets.

So, I'm asking: what am I not seeing about this guy? I remember the recent Red Card, but that was Fellaini getting suckered by a con-man (he barely touched Aguero.) Yeh, he shouldn't have done it --- Bill Laimbeer would have suckered him the same way in BBall. But other than that (I have a hard time dissing him for high testosterone and aggression), why is he never mentioned positively, by practically anyone?

 

[Emcee77]

OMM, you have hit squarely on Fellaini's strengths. When he's at his best, his physicality makes him an excellent center midfielder. After all, there is a reason Man U bought him. In fact, last year, when Man U was losing late in the game, the manager at the time, Louis Van Gaal, would throw on Fellaini as a sort of auxiliary striker so he could try to get on the end of a cross and score a cheap equalizer, because he is SO strong in the air.

Man U fans will be better qualified to address his weaknesses, but I think it's that he lumbers about and commits clumsy, costly fouls, and in some games he disappears because he lacks the footspeed and agility to keep up with the opposing midfielders. Further, he's not known for being a great ball-striker, in terms of long-distance passing or shooting. He's definitely a guy who can play a role for you, but who won't fit into the team on some days, depending on who he has to match up with.

That said, in the last World Cup I remember seeing some outstanding performances from him in midfield. He definitely has his days where he looks great.

 

[Cackalacky]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UW0x0dkR6Lc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Cackalacky]

I will just add that after having watched Fellani for Everton and for Manu he can get bent. I have no love for that guy. He tries hard to be a destroyer but he pales in comparison to my all time favorite midfield ruffian.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bSJmMc1cvac" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Old Man Mike]

Those are two very different futbol players if the clips are representative. Gattuso reminds me of Vidal with more mouth. Very high energy and lots of ball skills. He probably gets his reputation in part because he has too much testosterone oozing out of his eyeballs to get him to cool it after plays are over. Gattuso definitely likes to attack as if he's a striking wing --- Fellaini obviously is not that kind of player.

Fellaini is more of an "enforcer" like many power forwards in BBall used to be (think Draymond Green or Charles Barkley.) They do the dirty contact work wherever they're assigned, but aren't "fancy" at all. By the way, I think that this will probably surprise some who watch the darkside of Fellaini video, but I felt that only one instance in there was what I'd call "dirty" in the sense of a violent act dealt out without provocation. Even the one vicious elbow was Fellaini responding to the guy pulling his head backwards by his hair. All those little testosterone-driven foreheads-to-the-forehead were at the level of love-taps with babyish diving by the opponent.

I don't think that much of anything in the Gattuso video was "dirty play" either --- but then again I was accused to dirty play often myself in BBall, just because I was willing to push people in the back under the boards to get them out of there --- gently and civilly of course, maybe. To me almost all the stuff on those videos was "hard aggressive play." After the plays are over, both guys continue to respond to their opponents --- almost always a matter of no-backing-up aggression, but much ado about nothing. ... not gentlemanly behavior if we're bringing our son to the game maybe, but otherwise what's the issue in my mind.

p.s. I can see why people would love or hate Gattuso, and never in-between.

p.p.s. the video of Rooney looked to have several dirty plays in it (deliberate stomps etc.), while the video of Ronaldo was basically all down-the-nose sneering with little "heavy play."

 

[IHateMarkMay]

I watched the Man U game yesterday, and this past weekend when he got the red. Everything that has been said about his game is pretty spot on. He is a strong player and when he is on, he is extremely good. However, all it takes is someone to get under his skin and he goes off and does something stupid and gets carded. High risk, high reward type of player.

I am quite intrigued to see if Zlatan leaves after this season. If they get Griezman, I think he bolts (which I'd be fine with that trade off).

 

[Cackalacky]

Those are two very different futbol players if the clips are representative. Gattuso reminds me of Vidal with more mouth. Very high energy and lots of ball skills. He probably gets his reputation in part because he has too much testosterone oozing out of his eyeballs to get him to cool it after plays are over. Gattuso definitely likes to attack as if he's a striking wing --- Fellaini obviously is not that kind of player.

Fellaini is more of an "enforcer" like many power forwards in BBall used to be (think Draymond Green or Charles Barkley.) They do the dirty contact work wherever they're assigned, but aren't "fancy" at all. By the way, I think that this will probably surprise some who watch the darkside of Fellaini video, but I felt that only one instance in there was what I'd call "dirty" in the sense of a violent act dealt out without provocation. Even the one vicious elbow was Fellaini responding to the guy pulling his head backwards by his hair. All those little testosterone-driven foreheads-to-the-forehead were at the level of love-taps with babyish diving by the opponent.

I don't think that much of anything in the Gattuso video was "dirty play" either --- but then again I was accused to dirty play often myself in BBall, just because I was willing to push people in the back under the boards to get them out of there --- gently and civilly of course, maybe. To me almost all the stuff on those videos was "hard aggressive play." After the plays are over, both guys continue to respond to their opponents --- almost always a matter of no-backing-up aggression, but much ado about nothing. ... not gentlemanly behavior if we're bringing our son to the game maybe, but otherwise what's the issue in my mind.

p.s. I can see why people would love or hate Gattuso, and never in-between.

p.p.s. the video of Rooney looked to have several dirty plays in it (deliberate stomps etc.), while the video of Ronaldo was basically all down-the-nose sneering with little "heavy play."

I am definitely of the opinion that Fellani is a flat out dirty player. His elbows are notorious in Liverpool. Its possible that I am biased since he played for the two teams I despise the most, but in general I have seen too much of his play to think he is doing anything in a sporting manner. There is one clip in there where he elbowed a Liverpool player and then stomped on Lucas's feet and it all appeared intentional.

If you want some Manu fan perspective here is an apt thread on their forum

But again you are astute OMM... Gattusso was a loyal bulldog and did have attacking skills but more often than not his role was to roam and destroy alongside Pirlo (either at AC Milan or on the National team) who would orchestrate a counter from any turnover Gattusso could provoke or cause.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I read the ManU fan thread on how "dirty" Fellaini is. (reminded me a lot of IE football threads --- people jumping on negative bandwagons and going to near insane levels before other posters arrive with more balancing opinions.) ... thread was a March 2016 thing.

The train of opinion was interesting. It began as if Fellaini was consistently guilty of every imaginable "dirty" offense, and as it went on, the list of consistent offenses dwindled to two: a). elbowing and b). headbutting. They showed a Match-of-the-day clip of him vs Everton which was supposed to be a Climax piece of evidence for the prosecution. I saw almost nothing in it at all. The "elbow", the "headbutt", the "punch" that the incredibly wimpy announcer was crying about were pansy-a$$ed "taps" with the opponent not even going down --- the "punch" was hilarious --- a soft slow-motion open-handed push. Anyway, none of it was anywhere near convincing to me.

Then (for me) sanity began showing its head and quotes like this arose:
"I don't think he's even necessarily deliberately dirty, he's just incredibly reckless and careless. He's always flinging an elbow in some players direction, or pushing someone over, or committing a foul of some kind. While players like Scholes and Keane could be dirty, they could also go for large periods of a match wherein they didn't do anything particularly reckless. Fellaini feels like he's always on the verge of a foul."

I didn't agree with the tone of that either, but felt that it was getting closer to what the player was.

Then this:
"He's just big and clumsy as has been pointed out. I notice he'll use his body to try to outmuscle the opponent off the ball but because he throws his arms up everywhere he'll inevitably end up giving far too many fouls away."

This hit me as almost exactly correct. Fellaini is to ManU soccer like Bill Laimbeer was to the Detroit Pistons (Laimbeer being a FAR better player and gamesman.) In this way: Laimbeer was the maestro of the "flopping flailing arms." On all crowded jumps, those big arms flopped out there and shoved the opponent down and away. They were almost never hard elbows --- just like Fellaini's are almost never hard elbows (many soccer players have been encultured to react to any contact by falling on the ground and crying to the referee, while NBA were not.) I've watched perhaps 10 instances of "complaints" against Fellaini for elbowing, and maybe one looked like it had any stinger intent and force behind it. Did any of them actually hurt? Who knows? Maybe. I got my head opened up for a six stitches blood gusher once by a completely unintentional elbow, reaching for a rebound. Even that didn't hurt; just produced a bunch of blood.

Another quote:
"Nothing wrong with Fellaini's antics.
Fellaini doesn't play in our team for his Messi like skills. He plays to disrupt the opposition and increase our chances of scoring.
If rival players don't want to end up on the floor, they shouldn't mark him so closely.
And as for Can (was it?), in the last LFC game - he went down too easily. My sister wouldn't have gone to ground but that drama queen tumbled, hoping to get Fellaini carded. I'm surprised that after going to ground, he didn't roll on the floor as like he'd been shot in the face."

This comes closer still with what I see in him. The intensity of the griping seemed almost entirely because the ManU fandom thinks that Fellaini isn't good enough for them, or for the salary he's getting. Other soccer fans "hate" him because he's on ManU.

Again, this was just a fan thread. I see the guy as a hard-working willing-to-engage-in-contact roughneck who has the team interests at heart, and therefore is going to play very hard without getting red-carded off. And who has more value than everyone seems to want to give credit for. But I'm the rook here, and view him as I viewed Laimbeer --- a player who I would have loved to play BBall with on my team. Lunchbucket physical work-to-the-end for the team.


"If you have a team full of choirboys, you better be awfully good at singing. ... and it better be singing that you're competing about."

Mountain William.

 

[Emcee77]

Wow, West Ham, where has that effort been all season.

Let's hope Boro can do to Chelsea on Monday what they did to Man City last weekend. Bummer for Spurs today but it ain't over till it's over.

 

[Cackalacky]

Thank you Arsenal.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Liverpool has nearly zero presence in the air. Without Lallana on the pitch during most of the game, the only penetration that they made was when Milner would take the ball down the left side and hit a cross (he did this well but uselessly as no Liverpool player ever came close to heading one.) Coutinho was reduced to playing ten yards further away than normal just to get touches.

It's hard for me to see where Liverpool can succeed with any consistency vs a savvy coach with a design to shut off Coutinho --- unless Lallana and Mane would also be in there threatening. Even with all hands on deck, It's hard to see them rising to any greatness when an opposing coach can essentially forget about any air game on their part and just defend the middle tightly. (let the wings get downfield and cross it all they want; there's no threat on the end of the pass.) (( against strong physical centerbacks, I doubt even Can or Firmino would ever touch the ball, even on a corner. I can't imagine what the two Juventus Hammers would think of that "opposition." ))

I like Liverpool because I like Klopp, and very much like Lallana as well, so the above evaluation is unwelcome to my prejudices.

 

[NorthDakota]

Liverpool has nearly zero presence in the air. Without Lallana on the pitch during most of the game, the only penetration that they made was when Milner would take the ball down the left side and hit a cross (he did this well but uselessly as no Liverpool player ever came close to heading one.) Coutinho was reduced to playing ten yards further away than normal just to get touches.

It's hard for me to see where Liverpool can succeed with any consistency vs a savvy coach with a design to shut off Coutinho --- unless Lallana and Mane would also be in there threatening. Even with all hands on deck, It's hard to see them rising to any greatness when an opposing coach can essentially forget about any air game on their part and just defend the middle tightly. (let the wings get downfield and cross it all they want; there's no threat on the end of the pass.) (( against strong physical centerbacks, I doubt even Can or Firmino would ever touch the ball, even on a corner. I can't imagine what the two Juventus Hammers would think of that "opposition." ))

I like Liverpool because I like Klopp, and very much like Lallana as well, so the above evaluation is unwelcome to my prejudices.

There is a flaw in your thought process. Liverpool owns the good teams/coaches.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Well, thank you for making things personal. (Could it ever be possible that we'd say such things more like: "Hmmm. I get the point, but the fact that Liverpool seems OK using these players vs power teams, seems to indicate that there's something more complicated going on here. I wonder if we could discuss why these two different things seem to be happening"?)

My opinion on Liverpool,( not you --- I'm trying NOT to have an opinion about your mental processes, which I'm sure would be quite boring to everyone here,) is that the power teams believe that they can play Liverpool straight up and beat them with their normal games, and then (often) find out that if they would alter their games slightly to play power soccer almost exclusively (just against Liverpool), they wouldn't play into Liverpool's strength. I believe that the big clubs have underestimated Liverpool's skill (esp. when Lallana and Mane are available), and may even have too much pride to alter their normal game style, even if it would better ensure a win.

This is merely a fan opinion, Dakota, not part of my personal mental make-up. I back off these things easily when more expert or insightful adults educate me.

 

[NorthDakota]

Well, thank you for making things personal. (Could it ever be possible that we'd say such things more like: "Hmmm. I get the point, but the fact that Liverpool seems OK using these players vs power teams, seems to indicate that there's something more complicated going on here. I wonder if we could discuss why these two different things seem to be happening"?)

My opinion on Liverpool,( not you --- I'm trying NOT to have an opinion about your mental processes, which I'm sure would be quite boring to everyone here,) is that the power teams believe that they can play Liverpool straight up and beat them with their normal games, and then (often) find out that if they would alter their games slightly to play power soccer almost exclusively (just against Liverpool), they wouldn't play into Liverpool's strength. I believe that the big clubs have underestimated Liverpool's skill (esp. when Lallana and Mane are available), and may even have too much pride to alter their normal game style, even if it would better ensure a win.

This is merely a fan opinion, Dakota, not part of my personal mental make-up. I back off these things easily when more expert or insightful adults educate me.

No worries my man. I can be tough to deal with! I didn't intend to come off as a dick. And i don't disagree with what you are trying to say. I think you make a good point that good teams don't really understand how to deal with Pook

 

[Rogue219]

Klopp subs a tad too late IMO. May have been wise to get Sturridge and Lallana on earlier. Consider Moreno, even as a wing, for his pace in situations like yesterday too. Teams have been doing this to Liverpool all year and they still can't figure out how to break them down.

I would never have imagined that motivated Arsenal was going to show up for that match yesterday either.

For all the money they spent this past summer, Mourinho sure likes to moan about all the matches he's had to play. During their unbeaten streak, did they ever even rise above fifth? They could finish sixth and LVG was fired for that. On a cheaper spend, too.

 

[Emcee77]

Liverpool are a very flawed team right now. Klopp likes to play narrowly so his players are in position to counter-press, win the ball back, and create breaks. This almost worked a couple of times against Saints, but LFC didn't get the bounces. But generally I agree with OMM that LFC don't really have a good answer for a team that defends deep and compactly. Normally, the obvious answer is to get the fullbacks forward and swing in crosses. True, LFC don't have a big center forward who is an obvious target for those crosses, but Firmino and Origi are actually pretty good in the air despite not being classic big-bodied center forwards (Firmino sometimes reminds me of Sergio Aguero in this respect; he has scored some great headed goals. And Origi is deceptively tall and an athletic leaper), so I don't think the problem is on the receiving end--it's on the delivery end. Robbie Mustoe put his finger on it in his post-game remarks on NBCSN: Milner is right-footed, so he will always be a little awkward delivering crosses from the left, and Clyne is just not a good offensive fullback when it comes to getting good crosses in. I actually think right back is a really overlooked need for LFC right now, based on the tactics opponents have used against us this year and Clyne's unfitness to counter them.

Klopp subs a tad too late IMO. May have been wise to get Sturridge and Lallana on earlier. Consider Moreno, even as a wing, for his pace in situations like yesterday too. Teams have been doing this to Liverpool all year and they still can't figure out how to break them down.

Also I totally agree with both points.

No idea why Klopp didn't thrown on Studge and Lallana right at halftime. He always does this, makes brilliant changes but too late in the game.

And yes, against teams that defend deep and compact, I wish Klopp would consider bringing on Moreno for CLYNE and moving Milner to right back. Moreno was just what was required on Saturday. He is a bit sloppy at times but by and large he is a good, creative attacking fullback, which is what we needed. He was really helpful against Crystal Palace, but Klopp waited too long to throw him on. Frustrates me so much as a fan.

 

[Cackalacky]

Liverpool are a very flawed team right now. Klopp likes to play narrowly so his players are in position to counter-press, win the ball back, and create breaks. This almost worked a couple of times against Saints, but LFC didn't get the bounces. But generally I agree with OMM that LFC don't really have a good answer for a team that defends deep and compactly. Normally, the obvious answer is to get the fullbacks forward and swing in crosses. True, LFC don't have a big center forward who is an obvious target for those crosses, but Firmino and Origi are actually pretty good in the air despite not being classic big-bodied center forwards (Firmino sometimes reminds me of Sergio Aguero in this respect; he has scored some great headed goals. And Origi is deceptively tall and an athletic leaper), so I don't think the problem is on the receiving end--it's on the delivery end. Robbie Mustoe put his finger on it in his post-game remarks on NBCSN: Milner is right-footed, so he will always be a little awkward delivering crosses from the left, and Clyne is just not a good offensive fullback when it comes to getting good crosses in. I actually think right back is a really overlooked need for LFC right now, based on the tactics opponents have used against us this year and Clyne's unfitness to counter them.



Also I totally agree with both points.

No idea why Klopp didn't thrown on Studge and Lallana right at halftime. He always does this, makes brilliant changes but too late in the game.

And yes, against teams that defend deep and compact, I wish Klopp would consider bringing on Moreno for CLYNE and moving Milner to right back. Moreno was just what was required on Saturday. He is a bit sloppy at times but by and large he is a good, creative attacking fullback, which is what we needed. He was really helpful against Crystal Palace, but Klopp waited too long to throw him on. Frustrates me so much as a fan.

Personally, I dont know why we had Lucas, Can and Gini on all at the same time? Perplexing. If Lallana was fit he should have played in place of Lucas.

More and more, I am less and less of a fan of Clyne. He doesnt do much to hurt you but he doesn't bring much offensively either and his crosses are HORRIBLE.

 

[Emcee77]

Personally, I dont know why we had Lucas, Can and Gini on all at the same time? Perplexing. If Lallana was fit he should have played in place of Lucas.

More and more, I am less and less of a fan of Clyne. He doesnt do much to hurt you but he doesn't bring much offensively either and his crosses are HORRIBLE.

Yes and yes. I don't know why Lallana didn't play, if he was fit. And yes, we have to admit that Clyne is a pretty good, reliable defender. He could be really good on the right side of a back 3, the way Chelsea use Azpilicueta. If Klopp continues to experiment with a back 3, I definitely see a role for him. But we shouldn't be counting on him to provide width in attack. He is just not good at that.

 

[Rogue219]

They miss Mane. Badly.

They play West Ham away next. Everyone that has throttled that team this year has gone right at them. I think you have to start Lallana and Sturridge. Come right at them and try to put a few in early.

If they bottle this and finish below 4th, they don't deserve Europa League let alone Champions League.

 

[Rogue219]

Milner has done a great job this year, but they need a proper left back to compete for a title and for Champions League.

They could use some coverage on the right side for Clyne as well. He's piled a lot of minutes over there, as has Milner on the left. They had a teenager start at Old Trafford and he played the entire match. Held up well. Don't recall the boy's name. Maybe Klopp is grooming him up?

 

[NorthDakota]

Milner has done a great job this year, but they need a proper left back to compete for a title and for Champions League.

They could use some coverage on the right side for Clyne as well. He's piled a lot of minutes over there, as has Milner on the left. They had a teenager start at Old Trafford and he played the entire match. Held up well. Don't recall the boy's name. Maybe Klopp is grooming him up?

Trent Arnold Alexander. He's capable of playing in a variety of spots.

 

[Rocket89]

For all the money they spent this past summer, Mourinho sure likes to moan about all the matches he's had to play. During their unbeaten streak, did they ever even rise above fifth? They could finish sixth and LVG was fired for that. On a cheaper spend, too.

The funny thing is Man U might end up with 2 trophies and in the Champions League. Just have to hold serve at home against Celta Vigo and beat (likely opponent) Ajax.

And they could knock out their cross-town rival from the Champions League who also spent more money than them in 2016-17 and didn't get a trophy.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I'll bet on ManU 5th in EPL and losing to Ajax. Double disappointment for ManU fans.

 

[nsisk157]

I'll bet on ManU 5th in EPL and losing to Ajax. Double disappointment for ManU fans.

I'd surely have a few friends on suicide watch.

 

[NorthDakota]

I'll bet on ManU 5th in EPL and losing to Ajax. Double disappointment for ManU fans.

Would be delightful. Won't be any easier for them next year.

 

[Rogue219]

The funny thing is Man U might end up with 2 trophies and in the Champions League. Just have to hold serve at home against Celta Vigo and beat (likely opponent) Ajax.

And they could knock out their cross-town rival from the Champions League who also spent more money than them in 2016-17 and didn't get a trophy.

A League Cup and Europa League aren't exactly their standards. Sure as hell aren't Mourinho's. Just a few years ago he bad mouthed the Europa League. Life comes at you fast I guess.

 

[Rogue219]

Trent Arnold Alexander. He's capable of playing in a variety of spots.

Maybe they should consider putting him out there for Milner. At least start him anyway.

Total games missed through injury this season:

Coutinho - 10
Henderson - 12
Mané - 12
Lallana - 11
Sturridge - 18

They're currently in third despite this. Pretty impressive.

 

[Rocket89]

A League Cup and Europa League aren't exactly their standards. Sure as hell aren't Mourinho's. Just a few years ago he bad mouthed the Europa League. Life comes at you fast I guess.

Eh, maybe but it's not a terrible place to be. A couple trophies, back in the Champions League with $20 million pay day coming your way at the expense of your rival, and some momentum going into the offseason where they can make a splash. Post Fergie standards that's pretty nice. Compared to say, Arsenal's situation.

 

[GowerND11]

Eh, maybe but it's not a terrible place to be. A couple trophies, back in the Champions League with $20 million pay day coming your way at the expense of your rival, and some momentum going into the offseason where they can make a splash. Post Fergie standards that's pretty nice. Compared to say, Arsenal's situation.

But... you're not wrong.

 

[Rogue219]

Eh, maybe but it's not a terrible place to be. A couple trophies, back in the Champions League with $20 million pay day coming your way at the expense of your rival, and some momentum going into the offseason where they can make a splash. Post Fergie standards that's pretty nice. Compared to say, Arsenal's situation.

I thought that Man U winning the Europa League doesn't knock anyone out of Champions League. The max they can send is five clubs.

For the money they spent this past summer, and the status of their club globally, it isn't anywhere near good enough. Some may want to lower standards for them, but I wouldn't say that's fair considering who they are and who their manager is.

They've scored 51 goals this season. Bournemouth has 52. Their magical unbeaten run basically gained them nothing against a struggling Liverpool and City.