Defense?

[IrishLax]

Stupid? Okay so let me ask a simple question. Whose fault was it for Cincy's poor defense last year.

Whose fault was it for USC's poor defense last year?

I don't know whether you've played competitive sports or not, but if you did you should know that it is NEVER black & white the "coach's fault" or the "player's fault" with anything. Players can only play in the system they're given and coaches can only coach the players they have. Perfect example: our lacrosse team absolutely dominated four top 10 offenses in the NCAA tournament last year holding 3 of them to season lows in goals. How? It wasn't that our players were super-amazing-all-world defenders. And it wasn't that our coaches were some schematic geniuses. No, it was that Coach Byrne had a great system that a lot of solid players bought into and played as an awesome unit. And Scotty was unreal in goal for our whole run. Good coaching + good players = good defense. You can't have one without the other. Now on to your examples.

Cincy: At least 90% the players... and they really weren't that bad as a unit... especially considering the offensive scheme creating a game with more possessions. As an athlete you cannot be taught experience. You also can't really be taught to be an athlete (although the training regiment definitely is a factor). 10 completely fresh faces while drawing from a rather untalented (at least in measurables) group... while playing with an up-tempo offense and BK/Diaco still fielded a defense ranked MUCH higher statistically than ND's was last year.

USC: At least 75% the players. Pete Carroll didn't change his coaching (I'm not sure how much his coordinators changed though) from when he had dominant defenses to last year. Simple fact is that when the ROY Brian Cushing leaves along with Clay Matthews and Malaluga you CANNOT expect to get the same production plugging in kids who aren't first round material. The players were simply not as good as they were in previous years, although Pete & Co. can probably be blamed a little for the lack of adjustments they made.

And my bonus analysis on ND: At least 80% the coaches. I don't know how much talent we have on the DL, but I do know we have some serious athletes at linebacker and our corners are much better than they played. What I also have heard from numerous sources is that the constant changing of schemes with multiple coordinators was a complete and utter train wreck. At least 50% of the blown coverage/mental errors you saw on the field were a direct result of coaching. I could be wrong, but I expect our defense to play with a completely different focus and attention to detail this year.

Alright that is all. Back to packing.

PS. Sorry I did not mean to say that you were "stupid." While I think your post was completely ill-informed and wrong... it is only a single post... a single post does not define a person. For all I know you have had a number of insightful comments on this site that I have not read. My apologies.

 

[iamtrulyblessed]

You get the right kids with alot of the same character, motivation, persistency, technique,and heart to play on the same team, or as i should say....DEFENSE, it will all come together. With Diaco and Elston running that defense, im so confident that alot of good things are bound to happen.

 

[NDinLA is a TROLL]

IrishLax: It is the coaches job to groom players to fill in spots and ultimately is their responsibility. Like I said before, ALA will have 9 new starters on defense and I doubt that they are going to have a drop off that bad. Now of course ALA is not Cincy but I doubt anyone on here thinks that ALA will be that poorly on defense.

 

[iamtrulyblessed]

Hey Truly, could you elaborate? I know his system is more of a hybrid than a traditional 3-4, but how does it differ philosophically? Do they use more stunting from the DL and rely less on the zone blitz, or is it a different approach? I tried to watch Cincinnati a lot last year, but living in California as I do, only a few games were shown, so I don't have a great grasp on how Diaco runs his particular brand of the 3-4.

I can't elaborate too much Birdman cause it's sorta like having a secret recipe. Your right, it's not the traditional 3-4 and it's definetly hybrid. Yes, more stunting from the DL. All I can say is that it will work and with what Tate said about having the right guys to run it, he's definetly right!!

 

[Rocket89]

IrishLax: It is the coaches job to groom players to fill in spots and ultimately is their responsibility. Like I said before, ALA will have 9 new starters on defense and I doubt that they are going to have a drop off that bad. Now of course ALA is not Cincy but I doubt anyone on here thinks that ALA will be that poorly on defense.

Well how bad will the drop off be?

If the Tide don't go undefeated and win the title then it is 100% Saban's fault?

If a team loses half a dozen All-Americans on defense, 99% of the time they will not be as good the following year.

It's not like great coach's forget how to coach. They aren't wizards who can turn anybody into great players.

Your argument sounds good if I'm listening to a coach at a press conference, but it doesn't really work that way in the real world.

 

[iamtrulyblessed]

Rocket your absolutely right!!

 

[dales5050]

I personally hate the 3-4 with our team because you have it relies multiple LB play with speed and strength and I don't think we have the personnel.

I disagree with this as well. I think the LBs are built for the 3-4 as well as the d-line. It is what they were recruited to play and were well on the way to being solid before the abortion of a defense by Tenuta was put in play.

I honestly think that by week 4 we are going to see Filer replace Smith and I think Fleming is going to have a breakout year. Te'o is about as athletic/fast as they come in regards to a MLB. The only concern I have is McDonald...but all he needs to be is a thumper in the middle.

 

[ACamp1900]

I didn't read through the thread but I agree with the T.C. I worry about the Defense a lot... though I think the coaches CAN turn it around, the bad part is it is still the same players...

by the end of the Michigan game, we'll know.

 

[NDinLA is a TROLL]

Well how bad will the drop off be?

If the Tide don't go undefeated and win the title then it is 100% Saban's fault?

If a team loses half a dozen All-Americans on defense, 99% of the time they will not be as good the following year.

It's not like great coach's forget how to coach. They aren't wizards who can turn anybody into great players.

Your argument sounds good if I'm listening to a coach at a press conference, but it doesn't really work that way in the real world.

Part of great coaching is not having any drop off with player personnel though. Coaches are getting paid millions of dollars to be good every year. Now maybe Kelly can afford a drop off in defense since his offense seemed to carry the load last year.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

The thing about the 3-4 is probably the most crucial ingredient is the Nose. You've got to have a sumo on the center taking two blockers or else there's too much inside running room. Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Terrance Cody, Haloti Ngata, Tony Siragusa, the list goes on.

We could have 5 Manti's but they'll all be irrelevant if hogs are constantly getting to the second level.

I don't know if Ian Williams can be this much of a space eater. We all saw that Ethan Johnson can't, and is much better suited for DE.

 

[IrishLax]

IrishLax: It is the coaches job to groom players to fill in spots and ultimately is their responsibility. Like I said before, ALA will have 9 new starters on defense and I doubt that they are going to have a drop off that bad. Now of course ALA is not Cincy but I doubt anyone on here thinks that ALA will be that poorly on defense.

Yes and no. You also can't put a square peg in a round hole. Example: this year on our lacrosse team we lost 3xAll-American crease attackman Ryan Hoff. Crease attack, at the highest level, is not a position where you can simply plug in a 'good' attackman and expect it to work the same. So our coaches, realizing there was no one who was really an elite inside finisher on the team, decided to completely revamp the offensive system they've used for years.

We had a large drop off in offensive production this year. We would have had a worse drop off if our coaches hadn't made that change.

This example is works the same for every team sport. If you lose a great player(s) and the team performs worse you CANNOT definitively say whether or not it is the coaches fault. Only the players on the team really know that.

If the Colts lost Peyton Manning to injury and played worse would it be the coach's fault? If the Cavs play worse this year without Lebron is that the coach's fault? Think about it for a second.

Nothing is EVER purely the coach's fault or the player's fault... and there is no way you can judge how good of a job coach is doing without being one of his players. If you're not in the huddle... or at least near it.... you really can't make the claims your making. And you especially can't do it based on "ranks" when there are so many other variables involved like the quality of opponents, number of possessions, etc.

 

[NDinLA is a TROLL]

In the case of CFB and the amount the coaches are being paid, recruiting and grooming depth at each position is in the job description unlike the NFL. In the NFL it is more about maintaining your talent. If you were to use an example similar like say college basketball you would have swayed me.

Look at Roy Williams and UNC, he lost two all americans but he should have had players to replace them. I am still shocked to this day that UNC was that bad last year simply because Roy Williams usually has players to step in and become great. Same goes for Calipari at Kentucky, if doesn't make the tournament next year it will rest on his shoulders.

and to this "...there is no way you can judge how good of a job coach is doing without being one of his players."

Sure you can, Weis put many of our players on defense last year in horrible positions. Undersize LB playing dline. As a viewer you can judge how good of a job the coach is doing to a certain degree. Seeing how well they manage the clock, run the 2-minute offense, selection of time outs. I can't stand when a QB takes multiple time outs to avoid a delay of game. It shows me that they were not prepared and poor communication which is a direct result of poor coaching.

 

[dales5050]

I didn't read through the thread but I agree with the T.C. I worry about the Defense a lot... though I think the coaches CAN turn it around, the bad part is it is still the same players...

by the end of the Michigan game, we'll know.

Something to consider...

The 2004 ND offense passed for 2617 yards, rushed for 1529 yards and accounted for 33 TDs.

With pretty much the same players, the 2005 offense passed for 3963 yards, rushed for 1765 yards and accounted for 53 TDs.

That is a 44% improvement in passing, 14% improvement in rushing and a 48% improvement in scoring.


I know I am a homer, as we all are, but I am VERY VERY confident in the talent that ND has on the defensive side of the ball. I think the one thing that Kelly and Diaco will do and something that Tenuta refused to do is game plan for what they have rather than what they want to be.

 

[ACamp1900]

I understand all that... I see it as possible... but given ND's recent history I will expect the Defense to lose more battles than they win this year until PROVEN otherwise...

again, when the clock hits 00:00 in the Michigan game I'll have my firm opinion of our team and MAINLY of our defense... I believe they can pull a 180... I also believe they prob. won't and Forcier/Robinson will make us look painfully silly again.

 

[NDinLA is a TROLL]

yeah, I too will be basing our team on the outcome of week 2.

I will be in Vegas that weekend and I am hoping I will be able to talk some trash to Michigan fans. Week 2 is probably has by far the some of the best games of the season.

 

[IrishLax]

In the case of CFB and the amount the coaches are being paid, recruiting and grooming depth at each position is in the job description unlike the NFL. In the NFL it is more about maintaining your talent. If you were to use an example similar like say college basketball you would have swayed me.

Look at Roy Williams and UNC, he lost two all americans but he should have had players to replace them. I am still shocked to this day that UNC was that bad last year simply because Roy Williams usually has players to step in and become great. Same goes for Calipari at Kentucky, if doesn't make the tournament next year it will rest on his shoulders.

and to this "...there is no way you can judge how good of a job coach is doing without being one of his players."

Sure you can, Weis put many of our players on defense last year in horrible positions. Undersize LB playing dline. As a viewer you can judge how good of a job the coach is doing to a certain degree. Seeing how well they manage the clock, run the 2-minute offense, selection of time outs. I can't stand when a QB takes multiple time outs to avoid a delay of game. It shows me that they were not prepared and poor communication which is a direct result of poor coaching.

This was a good post.

To your points, I will say you are right about the difference between the NFL and CFB. But you did ignore my lacrosse example which was spot on what I'm talking about. I could give you a number of similar examples... such as with our soccer team and Lapira... or even your example with UNC and Roy Williams is interesting because you're saying that it is his fault that he didn't have the players... which I guess is true to an extent but pretty circular logic and a twist on what is going on here. This year, no matter what happens, Kelly is using players that weren't his recruits so an kind of analogy between performance at Cincy and expected performance this year, using the Roy Williams logic, becomes completely moot.

Next, to the part you quoted, you are definitely right that you can evaluate quite a bit from a 3rd party point of you. I was thinking solely in terms of points/yards allowed and general metrics often being terrible indicators of how well a coach is coaching a defense or how well a coach has their players fulfilling their potential.

Either way, +1 rep for making some good points. I think we will agree to disagree on how our defense will perform this year. Care to make a vBucks wager?

 

[NDinLA is a TROLL]

I do not bet against my teams, I am just cautiously optimistic. I am always hoping for the best, but I am a cynic when it comes to new coaching hires for ND, especially when they are changing back to the 3-4. It really amazes me how many systems our defense have had to learn in the past 4 years.

 

[Irish_Angst]

We also had our front seven playing out of position last year. Each and every one of them, with the exception of maybe Ian Williams, yet I make the case that he did an incredible job as a frosh in the 3-4 and then saw a decline in productivity. Ethan Johnson is a 3-4 DE who was asked to play the 3 technique undersized. KLM is a 3-4 DE who was playing DE in a 4-3. You could argue it is still the DE position, yet the requirements are drastically different in a 4-3 than a 3-4, and that isn't even getting into an attacking 4-3 and a no crease 3-4. Manti is an ILB and was playing outside. Brian Smith is an OLB who was playing inside. Fleming was playing a 4-3 DE when he should have been at OLB. Now on to Cincy

Cincy replaced 10 of their 11 starters on defense last year, and still finished better in those categories than the Irish last season. Now the obvious argument is that they did that with a much less "talented" roster. All that means is that the potential at Notre Dame is greater, and I think that, if you examine both teams, you would come to the conclusion that Notre Dame has better athletes, but not football players, and that is apparent from the statistics. Now the variable which will carry over and allow us to perform this experiment is Kelly, Longo, and Diaco. Those gentlemen produced our Exhibit A in Cincinnati, and now will give us Exhibit B to compare at Notre Dame. We can't really have a control group, but we'll make due.

Ultimately, we will see this year just how important coaching was at both universities. Notre Dame will be aided in the fact that they will be transitioning back to the 3-4, where their players fit more naturally, and they have the majority of them back. We'll have to wait until the season to scientifically measure your questions Reggie Bush. Even if we don't get the desired results, we can just say it was his first year and give BK a few more. ;D

Outstanding analysis. I'd like to add that last season we essentially had 2 defensive coordinators in Tenuta & Brown who had differing philosophies. Hard for the defense to play in sync when the assistant coaches aren't.

Blitzing 90% of the time won't do any good if you're not pressuring the QB. All he has to do is throw to the area vacated by the blitz. I suspect that Diaco will be able to disguise his blitzes better as well as put pressure on the QB without having to blitz as often.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

..Blitzing 90% of the time won't do any good if you're not pressuring the QB. All he has to do is throw to the area vacated by the blitz...

Or you can do the simplest of all things. Hand the ball to the RB inside, then have him swing outside after 2 steps. If D is blitzing and attacking the first point of attack or fake, all LB's and DL are easily sealed. Simple misdirection from the O can easily burn a quick to commit D.

 

[Irish_Angst]

Or you can do the simplest of all things. Hand the ball to the RB inside, then have him swing outside after 2 steps. If D is blitzing and attacking the first point of attack or fake, all LB's and DL are easily sealed. Simple misdirection from the O can easily burn a quick to commit D.

Very true... good point!

Question is: If we know that, why didn't Tenuta? I see he's now the LB coach for NC State. Curious to see if his defensive philosophy stays the same?