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Irishize

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I get the focus on “Dixie” but why no mention of the sexist connotation in “Chicks”? Now reasonable people realize that their name was derived from a Little Feat hit entitled “Dixie Chicken” but the cancel culture is far from reasonable so “Chicks” should be removed, too.

By the way, the makers of ‘Cracker Jacks’ has announced they will re-brand it as ‘Caucasian Jacks’. About time.
 

Irishize

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I don't recall reading anything here arguing that those firings were just. See below:



The problem is with adding "sexual orientation" as a protected class under the CRA. There were other ways for SCOTUS to have delivered relief for these plaintiffs without sentencing the Church here to death-by-a-thousand-papercuts via activist lawsuits.

I'm not really mad about the ruling per se. I'm mad at the GOP and the Federalist Society who have hoodwinked so many Catholics into supporting them because of the importance of SCOTUS appointments. It's freeing in a sense; now I can more easily dissuade them from supporting either party.

maxresdefault.jpg

"This time it'll be different, Charlie. We just need one more solid conservative on the Court,
and then we'll finally get around to overturning Roe v. Wade."

The bolded should be the takeaway for my friends & colleagues who voted for Trump solely on SCOTUS appointments. “SCOTUS & tax cuts” is no longer a winning formula for the elephants anymore.
 

Irish#1

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Who would fire an employee like the following?

R. G. & G. R. Harris Funeral Homes fired Aimee Stephens, who presented as a male when she was hired, after she informed her employer that she planned to “live and work full-time as a
woman.” (con

I really don't care what sexual orientation someone is, but I have no problem with the funeral home firing he/she for lying.
 

OrlaNDomer

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The bolded should be the takeaway for my friends & colleagues who voted for Trump solely on SCOTUS appointments. “SCOTUS & tax cuts” is no longer a winning formula for the elephants anymore.

I think most people I know who vote republican do so just because the alternative is worse, not because they actually believe in the republican party.
 

Irishize

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I think most people I know who vote republican do so just because the alternative is worse, not because they actually believe in the republican party.

I agree. A lot of folks I know told me before the election they held their nose & voted Trump for the SCOTUS plus figured he get blown out by Hillary anyway.
 

Wild Bill

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I think most people I know who vote republican do so just because the alternative is worse, not because they actually believe in the republican party.

I agree. A lot of folks I know told me before the election they held their nose & voted Trump for the SCOTUS plus figured he get blown out by Hillary anyway.

I'm not really mad about the ruling per se. I'm mad at the GOP and the Federalist Society who have hoodwinked so many Catholics into supporting them because of the importance of SCOTUS appointments. It's freeing in a sense; now I can more easily dissuade them from supporting either party.

Truly freeing. The gop can't defend shit except a ME war and a tax cut. Stop voting for them and maybe something better will emerge.
 

Irish YJ

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Truly freeing. The gop can't defend shit except a ME war and a tax cut. Stop voting for them and maybe something better will emerge.

What is realistically going to emerge. I hate our two party system, but it's just reality.

I've been an IND all my life and still consider myself one, but the last several years has tuned me into more of an "anything but Dem" voter. The last two election cycles have served up the 3 worst candidates ever, so I'll hold my nose again.
 

Old Man Mike

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"Culture" arises from a SHARED set of foundational beliefs and values and to a lesser but not unimportant degree Art/Music/and Literature (expressions of the Soul.)

Culture cannot be viewed as anything arising from antithetical viewpoints, profound divisions, hatreds, kneejerk rejections, nor all the tearing-asunder that "are" the USA.

This is why many social philosophers, observers, meditators upon society think that the USA has NO culture --- no really fundamental harmonies and very few grudging agreements.

With no culture, this thread becomes a street-corner reflection on the shallow veneer of our non-culture. Therein lies the deep tragedy of our times.
 

Irishize

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#CancelYale is trending. I predict this will be tit for tat for the next year as pundits on both sides of the aisle research every major figure in US History to find their flaw or poor decision and remove them from our culture. Stalin is smiling up from Hell right now (allegedly)
 

Legacy

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"Culture" arises from a SHARED set of foundational beliefs and values and to a lesser but not unimportant degree Art/Music/and Literature (expressions of the Soul.)

Culture cannot be viewed as anything arising from antithetical viewpoints, profound divisions, hatreds, kneejerk rejections, nor all the tearing-asunder that "are" the USA.

This is why many social philosophers, observers, meditators upon society think that the USA has NO culture --- no really fundamental harmonies and very few grudging agreements.

With no culture, this thread becomes a street-corner reflection on the shallow veneer of our non-culture. Therein lies the deep tragedy of our times.

My take on what Whiskey said about being mad at the GOP and the Federalist Society is that promises are made to use the federal government to effect cultural changes. Those are always promises that may almost be unwinnable and antithetical towards a commitment to work to effect the public good. They create a divisiveness that we have always worked through beginning with the Federalists vs the anti-Federalists.

Good government, especially in a pluralistic, multi-cultural society, described by Teddy Roosevelt over a hundred years ago:

"Of all the questions which can come before this nation, short of the actual preservation of its existence in a great war, there is none which compares in importance with the great central task of leaving this land even a better land for our descendants than it is for us, and training them into a better race to inhabit the land and pass it on."

“I stand for the square deal. But when I say that I am for the square deal, I mean not merely that I stand for fair play under the present rules of the games, but that I stand for having those rules changed so as to work for a more substantial equality of opportunity and of reward for equally good service. Now, this means that our government, national and State, must be freed from the sinister influence or control of special interests.”

There can be no effective control of corporations while their political activity remains. To put an end to it will be neither a short nor an easy task, but it can be done….
It is necessary that laws should be passed to prohibit the use of corporate funds directly or indirectly for political purposes; it is still more necessary that such laws should be thoroughly enforced.

Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations.
 

Irish YJ

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My take on what Whiskey said about being mad at the GOP and the Federalist Society is that promises are made to use the federal government to effect cultural changes. Those are always promises that may almost be unwinnable and antithetical towards a commitment to work to effect the public good. They create a divisiveness that we have always worked through beginning with the Federalists vs the anti-Federalists.

Good government, especially in a pluralistic, multi-cultural society, described by Teddy Roosevelt over a hundred years ago:

Not a good time to quote Teddy I guess.

Bill de Blasio just announced Teddy is being removed from the NYC's American Museum of Natural History
 

Old Man Mike

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Yes. It was a poorly conceived "art" idea from the first. The museum should find a way to remove the side statues (which create the racism objections) and leave Teddy and his horse. Roosevelt deserves a statue near that Natural Historey Museum because of his role in conservation. (Museum officials have said so.)
 

Irishize

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Are Americans as parents so passive & spineless & lazy that they can’t show their child a statue and explain the HISTORY behind it? When I type history I mean the good, the bad & the ugly. Whether it’s Columbus, George Washington, Teddy & FDR, JFK or MLK Jr, none are w/o sin but their contributions are what helped form this nation &/or led to positive changes in our culture. I mean the Babe Ruth statue needs to come down at some point at Camden Yards, right?
 

Old Man Mike

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I of course feel very strongly about obliterating the memory of Babe Ruth from US history. His background was PRUSSIAN of all things and he spoke only GERMAN as a young man. OUT WITH HIM!!

He was a beer-drinking delinquent AND a CATHOLIC!!! GET HIM OUTTA HERE!!! Wanted to use a baseball bat instead of engaging in honorable productive work!!!!!!!

.... and, as all we hip moderns know, he wasn't really that good, because nobody could play ball back then. I'm so offended that I could spit.
 

Whiskeyjack

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What is realistically going to emerge. I hate our two party system, but it's just reality.

I've been an IND all my life and still consider myself one, but the last several years has tuned me into more of an "anything but Dem" voter. The last two election cycles have served up the 3 worst candidates ever, so I'll hold my nose again.

The system is designed to do that. Keeps you voting regardless of outcome, which: (1) legitimates the status quo; (2) makes you morally complicit in all sorts of garbage you surely don't support; and (3) neutralizes you as a threat.

If the Harlem Globetrotters are evil, and the only team offered for opposing them are the Washington Generals, then the smart play isn't to keep showing up because "there's no other choice," but to simply stop buying tickets. The GOP as it currently exists is worse than useless, and it will never improve until people start making their support conditional on results.
 

Legacy

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Are Americans as parents so passive & spineless & lazy that they can’t show their child a statue and explain the HISTORY behind it? When I type history I mean the good, the bad & the ugly. Whether it’s Columbus, George Washington, Teddy & FDR, JFK or MLK Jr, none are w/o sin but their contributions are what helped form this nation &/or led to positive changes in our culture. I mean the Babe Ruth statue needs to come down at some point at Camden Yards, right?

Agree though Confederate statues that are rallying points for those still advocating those ideals belong in museums. One learns through books and education. Statues play little role except to discuss our history. I have no problem with Mt Rushmore figures, RE Lee, Founding Fathers that owned slaves, Columbus murals that show Native Americans in less than equal status, ruins of Spanish missions who converted you for your physical and spiritual survival. Teaching points.

I just finished reading River of Doubt where Teddy with a combined American and Brazilian expedition explored an uncharted river and almost died. The trip was sponsored by sponsored in part by the American Museum of Natural History which included taking specimens. His advocacy for preserving our environment and for establishing national parks is worth celebrating. He did look upon the native tribes as uncivilized unlike his Brazilian counterpart. One of his good friends, Father Zahm, alienated almost all the members of the expedition so much so that Roosevelt sent him on a side trip. When Zahm tired along the long overland trip, he wanted to be carried on a throne-like structure by the native Brazilians - a role he considered to be commensurate with their status - and when the expedition was struggling to carry the provisions they needed. But his sum total was more than that attitude.

OMM says: - ""Culture" arises from a SHARED set of foundational beliefs and values" Perhaps we can just reach the point of understanding those including the ones that clash.
 

Irishize

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Agree though Confederate statues that are rallying points for those still advocating those ideals belong in museums. One learns through books and education. Statues play little role except to discuss our history. I have no problem with Mt Rushmore figures, RE Lee, Founding Fathers that owned slaves, Columbus murals that show Native Americans in less than equal status, ruins of Spanish missions who converted you for your physical and spiritual survival. Teaching points.

I just finished reading River of Doubt where Teddy with a combined American and Brazilian expedition explored an uncharted river and almost died. The trip was sponsored by sponsored in part by the American Museum of Natural History which included taking specimens. His advocacy for preserving our environment and for establishing national parks is worth celebrating. He did look upon the native tribes as uncivilized unlike his Brazilian counterpart. One of his good friends, Father Zahm, alienated almost all the members of the expedition so much so that Roosevelt sent him on a side trip. When Zahm tired along the long overland trip, he wanted to be carried on a throne-like structure by the native Brazilians - a role he considered to be commensurate with their status - and when the expedition was struggling to carry the provisions they needed. But his sum total was more than that attitude.

OMM says: - ""Culture" arises from a SHARED set of foundational beliefs and values" Perhaps we can just reach the point of understanding those including the ones that clash.

I have no problem with that. But whitewashing history is Orwellian and actually carried out by dictators like Stalin. The Germans still wince when WWII & the Holocaust is mentioned. They know what it did to their reputation in the eyes of the world. One of the ways they used to ensure that horrific mistake doesn’t get made again is keeping some of the Nazi imagery around as a warning of what can happen when an authoritarian dictator leads a country.
 

Irishize

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The system is designed to do that. Keeps you voting regardless of outcome, which: (1) legitimates the status quo; (2) makes you morally complicit in all sorts of garbage you surely don't support; and (3) neutralizes you as a threat.

If the Harlem Globetrotters are evil, and the only team offered for opposing them are the Washington Generals, then the smart play isn't to keep showing up because "there's no other choice," but to simply stop buying tickets. The GOP as it currently exists is worse than useless, and it will never improve until people start making their support conditional on results.

Great analogy! Reps.
 

greyhammer90

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The system is designed to do that. Keeps you voting regardless of outcome, which: (1) legitimates the status quo; (2) makes you morally complicit in all sorts of garbage you surely don't support; and (3) neutralizes you as a threat.

If the Harlem Globetrotters are evil, and the only team offered for opposing them are the Washington Generals, then the smart play isn't to keep showing up because "there's no other choice," but to simply stop buying tickets. The GOP as it currently exists is worse than useless, and it will never improve until people start making their support conditional on results.

Ding ding ding
 

Wild Bill

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What is realistically going to emerge. I hate our two party system, but it's just reality.

I've been an IND all my life and still consider myself one, but the last several years has tuned me into more of an "anything but Dem" voter. The last two election cycles have served up the 3 worst candidates ever, so I'll hold my nose again.

I have no idea what will emerge, if anything. I basically agree with everything whiskey said above, especially point 3:

The system is designed to do that. Keeps you voting regardless of outcome, which: (1) legitimates the status quo; (2) makes you morally complicit in all sorts of garbage you surely don't support; and (3) neutralizes you as a threat.


This is why many social philosophers, observers, meditators upon society think that the USA has NO culture --- no really fundamental harmonies and very few grudging agreements.

With no culture, this thread becomes a street-corner reflection on the shallow veneer of our non-culture. Therein lies the deep tragedy of our times.

If the USA has NO culture, what's the purpose of this cultural revolution? What's the point of removing statues, symbols, re-naming streets, etc?
 

Old Man Mike

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Some people are trying to create one (i.e. shared values)

America's idea was that it could be a "melting pot." We got the Pot without the Melt.
 

Whiskeyjack

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If the USA has NO culture, what's the purpose of this cultural revolution? What's the point of removing statues, symbols, re-naming streets, etc?

Culture only arises from a shared cultus. Vermeule's Liturgy of Liberalism describes this well:

In The Old Regime and the Revolution, Alexis de Tocqueville described the French Revolution as a religious movement:

The ideal the French Revolution set before it was not merely a change in the French social system but nothing short of a regeneration of the whole human race. It created an atmosphere of missionary fervor and, indeed, assumed all the aspects of a religious revival—much to the consternation of contemporary observers. It would perhaps be truer to say that it developed into a species of religion.

Ryszard Legutko has now expanded this idea into a book, but he corrects and improves upon Tocqueville in one critical respect. Tocqueville suggested that if the Revolution had “developed into a species of religion,” still it was “a singularly imperfect one, since it was without a God, without a ritual or promise of a future life.” Legutko shows how very wrong this is. The Revolution’s descendants not only possess a theology and eschatology, but a central sacrament and an accompanying liturgy. Indeed, they compulsively, helplessly re-enact that liturgy, with mounting anxiety, while priding themselves on their freedom from all superstition.

Born in 1949, Legutko is a Polish philosopher and member of the European Parliament who was a dissident under communism and a high minister in the new Polish liberal-democratic state. Uniquely positioned as he is to understand both communism and liberalism, it is not surprising that his immediate frame for the book is a running comparison between the two systems. Twin children of the Enlightenment, raised in the same nursery of the Revolution, communism and liberalism have the same inner logic, the same intellectual structure, and the same dynamics over time—such is Legutko’s main thesis. Both embody the secularized soteriology of the Enlightenment, the narrative of Progress. The liberal and communist polities are both perpetually poised in the now and not-yet, between the emergence from the dim night of unreason and the final triumph. Meanwhile, however, the forces of irrationality, hatred, discrimination, and reaction are still strong—in the Vendée, among the kulaks of the Bible Belt who cling bitterly to their guns and their God, and even in the universities.

Communism and liberalism feature an odd and distinctive combination of historical determinism and radical Pelagianism. The eschaton of radical freedom for all is inevitable, the forces of History will sweep toward their ultimate victory—and therefore it is essential that every good citizen accept liberalism (communism) in his heart and promote it publicly, eagerly detecting and shaming bias (class interest) and intolerance (oppression). It also follows from Legutko’s view that liberal orders like the EU recreate the pathologies of communism, albeit with a human mask. The nations of Eastern Europe that, having rejected communism, ran pell-mell in the direction of EU-style liberalism betrayed each other and themselves. The forces behind the first Solidarity movement, on Legutko’s telling, were not at all uniformly liberal. The Church, or critical parts of it, was one of the few institutions to resist the Communist party. But when the new Polish regime became a liberal regime, it fell under a new shadow, with the same essential form as the old.

The stock distinction between the Enlightenment’s twins—communism is violently coercive while liberalism allows freedom of thought—is glib. Illiberal citizens, trapped without exit papers, suffer a narrowing sphere of permitted action and speech, shrinking prospects, and increasing pressure from regulators, employers, and acquaintances, and even from friends and family. Liberal society celebrates toleration, diversity, and free inquiry, but in practice it features a spreading social, cultural, and ideological conformism. Legutko is at his best when explaining, in the manner of Jon Elster, the subtle causal mechanisms that underpin this relentless drive for conformism, which constantly works to extinguish the illiberal.

Part of the picture is the familiar Tocquevillian claim that liberal egalitarianism generates pervasive suspicion and distrust of competing associations and institutions, which come to be perceived as breeding grounds of special privilege. Here, too, Legutko improves upon his predecessor by pinpointing the deep source of liberal hostility to orthodox religion in particular: Salvation is a good that is unequally distributed and thus amounts to the ultimate illegitimate privilege. More central to Legutko’s vision, however, is a different point: the essential loneliness of the liberal citizen, which becomes a powerful engine of conformism. Because liberalism tends to dissolve intermediate institutions and traditional groupings—family, community, church—liberal man craves belonging and membership. Under communism, citizens knew “they had to sever, if only verbally, all links with tradition, and to fill the empty space in their souls with the content of the socialist creed.” So too under liberalism: “The void ha to be filled by a new identity.” Individuals forge this new identity by inventing and participating in ecstatic political rituals that aspire to combine perfect equality with perfect freedom. Especially prominent are politicized “language rituals,” also a characteristic of life under communism; “the more participants, the noisier the political rites, the more impressive seemed to be the performance of the entire political system.”

As for intellectuals under liberalism—those evidence-based freethinkers of the quiet car, raised, selected, and trained to avoid superstition and prejudice (except for their own unconscious biases, which they ruefully confess but devoutly hope one day to overcome)—they either adopt the new liberal identity or are cowed into an outer conformism. This is due not just to fear of social reprisals and shaming, but also to self-deception and the lack of any other comprehensive view that would give them the self-confidence to think and speak against liberalism. The intellectual “in his heart . . . believes (or is not strong enough to shun the belief) that there must be something fundamentally right in all this deluge of nonsense, and he persuades himself that deprecating it would be more wrong than keeping silent.”

There are many puzzles about contemporary liberalism: its inconsistencies and hypocrisies, its vehement commitments that seem out of step with liberalism’s own professed principles. Just as, in the succession of scientific theories, anomalies come to light and mount up until a paradigm-shifting crisis occurs, so too the anomalies of liberalism as it actually operates have become glaring. Here are a few.

Why do Western liberal academics and EU technocrats object so stridently to the mild illiberalism of the Fidesz parliamentary party in Hungary, while saying little or nothing about Saudi Arabia and other monarchical or authoritarian nations, nominal allies of the West, who routinely control, punish, and dominate women, gays, and religious dissenters? Why are the EU technocrats, whose forte is supposed to be competence, so very bumbling, making policy mistake after policy mistake? How is it possible that while the sitting president of the United States squarely opposed same-sex marriage just a few years ago, the liberal intellectuals who supported him passionately also condemn any opposition to same-sex marriage as bigotry, rooted in cultural backwardness? Why was the triumph of same-sex marriage followed so rapidly by the opening of a new regulatory and juridical frontier, the recognition of transgender identity?

Legutko helps us understand these oddities. We have to start by understanding that liberalism has a sacramental character. “The liberal-democratic mind, just as the mind of any true communist, feels an inner compulsion to manifest its pious loyalty to the doctrine. Public life is full of mandatory rituals in which every politician, artist, writer, celebrity, teacher or any public figure is willing to participate, all to prove that their liberal-democratic creed springs spontaneously from the depths of their hearts.” The basic liturgy of liberalism is the Festival of Reason, which in 1793 placed a Goddess of Reason (who may or may not have been a prostitute conscripted for the occasion, in one of the mocking double entendres of Providence) on the holy altar in the Church of Our Lady in Paris. The more the Enlightenment rejects the sacramental, the more compulsively it re-enacts its founding Festival, the dawning of rationality.

Light is defined by contrast, however, so the Festival requires that the children of light spy out and crush the forces of darkness, who appear in ever-changing guises, before the celebration can be renewed. The essential components of the Festival are twofold: the irreversibility of Progress and the victory over the Enemy, the forces of reaction. Taken in combination, these commitments give liberalism its restless and aggressive dynamism, and help to make sense of the anomalies. Fidesz in Hungary is more threatening than the Saudi monarchy, even though the latter is far less liberal, because Fidesz represents a retrogression—a deliberate rejection of liberalism by a nation that was previously a member in good standing of the liberal order. The Hungarians, and for that matter the Poles, are apostates, unlike the benighted Saudis, who are simple heretics. What is absolutely essential is that the clock of Progress should never be turned back. The problem is not just that it might become a precedent and encourage reactionaries on other fronts. The deeper issue is that it would deny the fundamental eschatology of liberalism, in which the movement of History may only go in one direction. It follows that Brexit must be delayed or defeated at all costs, through litigation or the action of an unelected House of Lords if necessary, and that the Trump administration must be cast as a temporary anomaly, brought to power by voters whose minds were clouded by racism and economic pain. (It is therefore impossible to acknowledge that such voters might have legitimate cultural grievances or even philosophical objections to liberalism.)

The puzzle of the EU technocrats, on this account, is no puzzle at all. They are so error-prone, even from a technocratic point of view, at least in part because they are actually engaged in a non-technocratic enterprise that is pervasively ideological, in the same way that Soviet science was ideological. Their prime directive is to protect and expand the domain of liberalism, whether or not that makes for technical efficiency.

Liberalism needs an enemy to maintain its sacramental dynamism. It can never rest in calm waters, basking in the day of victory; it is essential that at any given moment there should be a new battle to be fought. The good liberal should always be able to say, “We have made progress, but there is still much to do.” This is why the triumph of same-sex marriage actually happened too suddenly and too completely. Something else was needed to animate liberalism, and transgenderism has quickly filled the gap, defining new forces of reaction and thus enabling new iterations and celebrations of the Festival. And if endorsement and approval of self-described “gender identity” becomes a widely shared legal and social norm, a new frontier will be opened, and some new issue will move to the top of the public agenda, something that now seems utterly outlandish and is guaranteed to provoke fresh opposition from the cruel forces of reaction—polygamy, perhaps, or mandatory vegetarianism.

Man is a sacramental animal who cannot deny his own nature. Legutko offers us a striking illustration of this truth. If ritual is rejected in theory, it will be aped in reality as a kind of compulsion. Obergefell v. Hodges was the decision that announced a constitutional right to same-sex marriage, founded on a constitutional right to “define and express [one’s] identity.” The Chief Justice, in dissent, complained about the majority’s “entirely gratuitous” aspersions against supporters of traditional marriage: “It is one thing for the majority to conclude that the Constitution protects a right to same-sex marriage; it is something else to portray everyone who does not share the majority’s ‘better informed understanding’ as bigoted.” In this, the Chief Justice betrayed a deep misunderstanding about what sort of activity he was participating in. He thought that he was participating in a legal decision. In fact, he was participating in a ritual drama—as the villain. The celebration of common-law liberal heroism, and its overcoming of the bigotry of the ages, requires the very aspersions that the Chief Justice thought gratuitous. They were an essential moment in the liturgy of liberalism.
 

Irishize

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Man executed in broad daylight while washing his car in Brooklyn<br><br>Bloody weekend continues in NYC<a href="https://t.co/opA0kto8H1">pic.twitter.com/opA0kto8H1</a></p>— NANCY (@9NEWSNANCY) <a href="https://twitter.com/9NEWSNANCY/status/1275065728513634307?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 22, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

ThePiombino

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Man executed in broad daylight while washing his car in Brooklyn<br><br>Bloody weekend continues in NYC<a href="https://t.co/opA0kto8H1">pic.twitter.com/opA0kto8H1</a></p>— NANCY (@9NEWSNANCY) <a href="https://twitter.com/9NEWSNANCY/status/1275065728513634307?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 22, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Fucking disgusting human being

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

Wild Bill

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Some people are trying to create one (i.e. shared values)

America's idea was that it could be a "melting pot." We got the Pot without the Melt.

Culture only arises from a shared cultus. Vermeule's Liturgy of Liberalism describes this well:

I wouldn't go as far as saying America has never had a dinstinct culture, but would agree, we lack culture in current year.

I see this attack on statues and symbols, at least in part, as nothing more than useful idiots destroying remnants of whatever culture we may have had so our ruling class makes sure we understand this is merely an economic zone, not a real nation.
 

Old Man Mike

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I sort of agree with that (while acknowledging that this is an awfully large multidimensional issue.)

In my opinion, "we" (the European immigrants) had an early culture which came over basically intact from the United Kingdom strongly colored ultimately by the Irish. The USA became a culture distinct from "England" due largely to two factors: the differences imprinted by Irish beliefs and attitudes plus the hard-to-quantify things which came from the "frontier experience" and the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" ideals and realities that turned America into a nation of hard-working optimists who took on a "don't push me"/ high testosterone/low bowing to authority and procedure stance, but still believed in enough Christianity to keep lawless/moral-less anarchy at bay.

America was, and to some lingering extent still tries to be, an Irish-English "culture" (note the absolutism view about language) under severe pressure to fly apart into disconnected mini-faction "pseudo-cultures." The globalism arrow of the economy does not aid in the maintenance of any culture as it makes "place" less and less significant.

The non-culture of widely disparately "connected" (pretty much an oxymoron) fundamentally isolated individuals is the trend of our future. Those who do not feel the need for true deeply rooted connectivity even on a fundamental beliefs level, dance a soul-deadening and ultimately lonely and dangerous dance.

I see perhaps MOST of our "culture" going the way of mindless pleasure-chasing adolescent morons. ... and the incredible wealth-production engine of the global economy will allow this adolescence to persist in the morons lives for many decades.
 

Irish YJ

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I sort of agree with that (while acknowledging that this is an awfully large multidimensional issue.)

In my opinion, "we" (the European immigrants) had an early culture which came over basically intact from the United Kingdom strongly colored ultimately by the Irish. The USA became a culture distinct from "England" due largely to two factors: the differences imprinted by Irish beliefs and attitudes plus the hard-to-quantify things which came from the "frontier experience" and the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" ideals and realities that turned America into a nation of hard-working optimists who took on a "don't push me"/ high testosterone/low bowing to authority and procedure stance, but still believed in enough Christianity to keep lawless/moral-less anarchy at bay.

America was, and to some lingering extent still tries to be, an Irish-English "culture" (note the absolutism view about language) under severe pressure to fly apart into disconnected mini-faction "pseudo-cultures." The globalism arrow of the economy does not aid in the maintenance of any culture as it makes "place" less and less significant.

The non-culture of widely disparately "connected" (pretty much an oxymoron) fundamentally isolated individuals is the trend of our future. Those who do not feel the need for true deeply rooted connectivity even on a fundamental beliefs level, dance a soul-deadening and ultimately lonely and dangerous dance.

I see perhaps MOST of our "culture" going the way of mindless pleasure-chasing adolescent morons. ... and the incredible wealth-production engine of the global economy will allow this adolescence to persist in the morons lives for many decades.

I'd add in Italian and German as well. Born in the 70s in Indy, we still had very ethnic neighborhoods and parishes. I'd call it simply a Euro culture. Within a 5 mile circle we had German, Irish, and Italian parishes/schools. The City Market growing up was full of Italians and Jewish stands/shops. In places like NO, you have French.

But those weren't American cultures. Those pockets did however share a common view of "America" for the most part.

Those pockets are no more. The only old pocket IMO that still hangs on in Indy is the small amount of Italians living in that same area. Most moved out to the burbs starting in the 70s and 80s. Some younger have moved back since the area is now "hip", but those younger folks didn't really preserve the culture.

I would say though, that the US ranks top 5 in most culture lists. The word, or definition of "culture" perhaps is not what we're talking about here.

Regardless, when you're a melting pot, those distinct cultures get watered down over time. The continuous input of different cultures/people and religion (or lack of) changes it. The only substantial pockets we see now are Hispanic and Asian.

I do agree we're somewhat a product now of economic influences, individualism, and pleasure chasers, but it's also a matter of input as much as anything. If you're making a mixed drink, altering the ingredients absolutely impacts the final product. If you take a rum and coke, and add some gin, vodka, and a margarita, you get something close to long island.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
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The Dixie Chick have changed their name to Chicks. Oregon St and Oregon will no longer refer to their rivalry as the Civil War.

How long before people get offended by the word South?
 
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