COVID-19

[AlaskanIrish]

Could someone move this to the Politics thread that's not on the front page?

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Rumsfeld, Powell, and Rice…

What about them? They did not face a formal deposition.

 

[pumpdog20]

Yes, pandemic disruptions reduced routine childhood vaccinations in many places, and public health experts, including Fauci, were aware and concerned about that because lower MMR coverage increases the risk of measles outbreaks. That's a real consequence of the pandemic and the response to it.

While children generally had much lower risk than older adults to Covid, thousands were hospitalized, some died, and others developed complications like MIS-C or long COVID. Public health decisions had to weigh multiple risks, not just one.

COVID vaccines were always intended primarily to reduce severe illness, hospitalization, and death. Early on they also reduced infection and transmission, but as the virus evolved that protection against infection became less durable. Many vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity, they reduce the likelihood or severity of disease rather than preventing every infection.

I also don't think it's fair to reduce complex policy decisions to "his fame was more important than 70 million children." That's a serious accusation, and I'd want strong evidence before accepting it.

We can criticize specific pandemic policies, including school closures or how routine vaccinations were disrupted, without rewriting what COVID vaccines were designed to do or overstating either disease.

Seems like this got rewritting a couple of times from it's going to stop the spread, to the now it was always only supposed to reduce the severity.

The early dialog of the virus is what prevented many people from taking it. Some of you may or may not have seen through that bullshit and knew better. If all along it would have been communicated as basically equivalent to a flu shot, we probably now wouldn't have so many people (incorrectly) not taking other vaccines.

 

[Blazers46]

What about them? They did not face a formal deposition.

I think we are getting into the weeds. If you are upset Saddam Hussein got overthrown write your Senator or congressman and make a complaint.

 

[sixstar]

COVID vaccines were always intended primarily to reduce severe illness, hospitalization, and death. Early on they also reduced infection and transmission, but as the virus evolved that protection against infection became less durable. Many vaccines don't provide sterilizing immunity, they reduce the likelihood or severity of disease rather than preventing every infection.

You are re-writing history. These are objective facts:

• The EUA was based on the primary endpoint: symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19. ie - prevention of contracting COVID.
  • Initial vax rollout was DEC 2020. After the Provincetown outbreak (July 2021), messaging changed to "reduction in symptom severity." In late 2021, the primary messaging from CDC (including Walensky) became that vax was working as expected by "preventing severe outcomes." The goalposts moved - you just didn't notice.
• SARS-CoV-2 is a positive-sense single-stranded RNA, just like the common cold coronaviruses. This type of virus mutates incredibly quickly. Mutating away from the original phenotype was essentially guaranteed. That's why we don't have a vaccine against the cold.
  • Are you asserting that top virology and immunology experts didn't know this basic fact?
• Vaccines, by previous definition (that was changed during COVID), were required to produce immunity:
  • CDC definition prior to 2015: "Injection of a killed or weakened infectious organism in order to prevent the disease."
  • CDC definition 2015-2021: "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease."
  • CDC changed the definition in 2021 to say: "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases"

We should hold high standards for all public servants, from Fauci to Trump.
Fauci has a Presidential pardon and still refused to answer any questions? Should tell you everything you need to know.

Blazers - it's infuriating to read what happened to you. I'm not surprised the worker bees in this thread don't empathize with a business owner since they were impacted like you were. But, man, that was a tough read. Such a shame what happened.

 

[GATTACA!]

Fauci has a Presidential pardon and still refused to answer any questions? Should tell you everything you need to know.

Howley and Rand have continued to talk about their desires to jail Fauci. They would comb through any testimony trying to pin perjury charges on him and any half decent lawyer would have advised him as such and to take the 5th.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

You are re-writing history. These are objective facts:

• The EUA was based on the primary endpoint: symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19. ie - prevention of contracting COVID.
  • Initial vax rollout was DEC 2020. After the Provincetown outbreak (July 2021), messaging changed to "reduction in symptom severity." In late 2021, the primary messaging from CDC (including Walensky) became that vax was working as expected by "preventing severe outcomes." The goalposts moved - you just didn't notice.
• SARS-CoV-2 is a positive-sense single-stranded RNA, just like the common cold coronaviruses. This type of virus mutates incredibly quickly. Mutating away from the original phenotype was essentially guaranteed. That's why we don't have a vaccine against the cold.
  • Are you asserting that top virology and immunology experts didn't know this basic fact?
• Vaccines, by previous definition (that was changed during COVID), were required to produce immunity:
  • CDC definition prior to 2015: "Injection of a killed or weakened infectious organism in order to prevent the disease."
  • CDC definition 2015-2021: "A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease."
  • CDC changed the definition in 2021 to say: "A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases"

We should hold high standards for all public servants, from Fauci to Trump.
Fauci has a Presidential pardon and still refused to answer any questions? Should tell you everything you need to know.

Blazers - it's infuriating to read what happened to you. I'm not surprised the worker bees in this thread don't empathize with a business owner since they were impacted like you were. But, man, that was a tough read. Such a shame what happened.

Isn't there more nuance to the timeline we're discussing?

The initial clinical trials did use prevention of symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 as the primary endpoint. That's true. But those trials were conducted before variants like Delta and Omicron emerged. As the virus evolved and more real-world data became available, public health messaging shifted to reflect what the evidence was showing, not necessarily because the vaccines had "failed," but because their effectiveness against infection declined while protection against hospitalization and death remained much stronger.

No serious virologist was unaware that RNA viruses mutate. The question wasn't whether SARS-CoV-2 would evolve, it was how quickly, in what ways, and whether vaccines would continue to provide meaningful protection. Influenza viruses mutate rapidly too, yet flu vaccines are still considered valuable because they reduce severe illness even when they don't completely prevent infection.

With CDC definition, it's accurate that the wording changed but the previous definition wasn't a scientific standard that every vaccine had to achieve sterilizing immunity. Many vaccines used long before COVID such as the influenza vaccine and pertussis vaccine reduce the risk of disease and severe outcomes without preventing every infection. The 2021 wording was intended to better reflect how vaccines work across different diseases, not to redefine COVID vaccines after the fact.

It's fair to criticize aspects of pandemic communication. Some officials made statements with more certainty than the evidence ultimately supported, particularly regarding transmission. But that's different from saying the science itself was rewritten or that the concept of vaccination fundamentally changed. The evidence consistently showed that COVID vaccines substantially reduced the risk of severe disease, hospitalization, and death, even as their ability to prevent infection decreased with new variants.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

We should hold high standards for all public servants, from Fauci to Trump.

If only this were true.

 

[greyhammer90]

I can't wait for someone's mind to be changed in this thread.

 

[oddz313]

Covid became a political football. Does NM or any other blue state completely shut down their states if we had a democratic president in office? Highly doubt it. And their excuse was Fauci from the shut down to the vaccine mandates.

Ohio where the congressman the other day was cussing out Fauci happened to be a red state for the most part.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Ohio where the congressman the other day was cussing out Fauci happened to be a red state for the most part.

Moreno.

He should have been as tough as Fauci as he was on his ex son in law who beat up his daughter and also happens to be in the House.

 

[GATTACA!]

Moreno.

He should have been as tough as Fauci as he was on his ex son in law who beat up his daughter and also happens to be in the House.

Didn't just beat her up. He poured boiling water on her too IIRC.

 

[Valpodoc85]

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Didn't just beat her up. He poured boiling water on her too IIRC.

No Republican members of Congress have yet called for an investigation into Miller, including Miller’s former father-in-law, Senator Bernie Moreno.

Dropped an f bomb on Fauci, though, so he's a hero.

 

[Blazers46]

Ohio where the congressman the other day was cussing out Fauci happened to be a red state for the most part.

Moreno.

He should have been as tough as Fauci as he was on his ex son in law who beat up his daughter and also happens to be in the House.

Didn't just beat her up. He poured boiling water on her too IIRC.

Cool. But as many have said… lesson learned, move on, right?

I’ll fully admit both sides have people that have done bad/criminal things.

Now back to bashing Fauci…

 

[RDU Irish]

Seems like this got rewritting a couple of times from it's going to stop the spread, to the now it was always only supposed to reduce the severity.

The early dialog of the virus is what prevented many people from taking it. Some of you may or may not have seen through that bullshit and knew better. If all along it would have been communicated as basically equivalent to a flu shot, we probably now wouldn't have so many people (incorrectly) not taking other vaccines.

If Covid had been properly communicated as a "strong flu" we wouldn't have had the mass hysteria and retarded reaction to it in the first place. And yes, we knew this early on. It was FAUCI that promoted 2-3% death rate publicly while telling dear diary it was one tenth that. Data NEVER supported 10x the death rate of a normal flu yet here we are with folks either still full throating Fauci's scrotum or saying "move on".

 

[TorontoGold]

Pretty crazy that Fauci was the only one in the science community who did all of this. Even more wild that no other country had similar guidance, or, could you imagine if other countries were more restrictive?

At the end of the day, it's just great to see people get upset at public figures who have outsized opinions of themselves. Good to see the consistency from the posters upset at Fauci's diary also carry this smoke for other figures.

world's biggest /s

 

[RudyVerse]

If Covid had been properly communicated as a "strong flu" we wouldn't have had the mass hysteria and retarded reaction to it in the first place. And yes, we knew this early on. It was FAUCI that promoted 2-3% death rate publicly while telling dear diary it was one tenth that. Data NEVER supported 10x the death rate of a normal flu yet here we are with folks either still full throating Fauci's scrotum or saying "move on".

This is hardly as intrusive as others, especially those who couldn’t visit relatives or lost businesses. But daycare was insane under these rules. I live in a blue state and they went nuts with it. If a kid had a runny nose, kid was out until they visited a doctor and got a note and covid test. No fever needed, no apparent sickness, just a runny nose. And the siblings also had to be out even if zero symptoms, again until they went to urgent care and got tested.

Insanity.

 

[drayer54]

I can't wait for someone's mind to be changed in this thread.

View attachment 3064227

The Fauci release did change some people’s minds-
But when you have Gattaca:

And the rest of the board dancing to shit like this-


You can’t expect facts and new releases to change their minds from the cult of Fauci. We knew he wanted power and fame, not anything good for the general public. We knew that when it was safe to riot but not go to church, teachers unions controlled school openings, Elites could wine and dine, and the rest of were told by Biden’s liars when it was safe to go outside. Thank god for people like DeSantis who told Fauci to fuck off when they saw a charlatan. More facts are available, but stupid is and stupid does.

 

[RDU Irish]

five years ago -smh

 

[TorontoGold]

The Fauci release did change some people’s minds-
But when you have Gattaca:

And the rest of the board dancing to shit like this-


You can’t expect facts and new releases to change their minds from the cult of Fauci. We knew he wanted power and fame, not anything good for the general public. We knew that when it was safe to riot but not go to church, teachers unions controlled school openings, Elites could wine and dine, and the rest of were told by Biden’s liars when it was safe to go outside. Thank god for people like DeSantis who told Fauci to fuck off when they saw a charlatan. More facts are available, but stupid is and stupid does.

Who's administration developed the vaccine?
Who's administration had Jerome Adams as the surgeon general?
Who gave Fauci a presidential medal of freedom?

It would be so easy for you to celebrate the fact that TRUMP not Biden was the one who gave the world one the most consequential vaccines of a generation. It's literally all right there.

 

[drayer54]

Who's administration developed the vaccine?
Who's administration had Jerome Adams as the surgeon general?
Who gave Fauci a presidential medal of freedom?

It would be so easy for you to celebrate the fact that TRUMP not Biden was the one who gave the world one the most consequential vaccines of a generation. It's literally all right there.

It is. Operation Warp Speed was a huge success. The abuse of Covid for power in the coming years of mandates and fraud was an insane crime that Fauci should answer for.

 

[RDU Irish]

Trump sucked on Covid, so did Biden.

You forgot PPP loans that enriched businesses that didn't need help and did nothing for the worst affected.

Also - GFY Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_convoy_protest

 

[RDU Irish]

It is. Operation Warp Speed was a huge success. The abuse of Covid for power in the coming years of mandates and fraud was an insane crime that Fauci should answer for.

For pharma profits, sure.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

If Covid had been properly communicated as a "strong flu" we wouldn't have had the mass hysteria and retarded reaction to it in the first place. And yes, we knew this early on. It was FAUCI that promoted 2-3% death rate publicly while telling dear diary it was one tenth that. Data NEVER supported 10x the death rate of a normal flu yet here we are with folks either still full throating Fauci's scrotum or saying "move on".

You're mixing together legitimate criticisms with claims that don't hold up. It's fair to debate lockdowns, school closures, or how officials communicated risk. But COVID wasn't simply "a strong flu." Before vaccines, it was significantly more deadly than seasonal flu and far more likely to overwhelm hospitals because it spread through a population with no existing immunity.

Early fatality estimates changed because researchers had incomplete information, not because they already knew the true number and hid it. As more widespread testing became available, estimates were refined. That's how scientific evidence evolves.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Pretty crazy that Fauci was the only one in the science community who did all of this. Even more wild that no other country had similar guidance, or, could you imagine if other countries were more restrictive?

At the end of the day, it's just great to see people get upset at public figures who have outsized opinions of themselves. Good to see the consistency from the posters upset at Fauci's diary also carry this smoke for other figures.

world's biggest /s

It's easy to turn one person into the sole villain or hero. Pandemic policies and messaging were shaped by governments, public health agencies, and scientific advisors around the world not just Fauci.

If someone believes public officials should be held accountable for overconfidence, inconsistent messaging, or overstating certainty, that standard should apply across the board. Consistency matters more than whether the person is someone you already agree with.

I'm old enough to remember when Covid was a hoax. People were told to wear masks, social distance, wash their hands, etc. There was outrage over that. Suddenly, one of the people who was suggesting people do these things is responsible for "killing people."

This is yet another distraction from more important and current matters.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

This is hardly as intrusive as others, especially those who couldn’t visit relatives or lost businesses. But daycare was insane under these rules. I live in a blue state and they went nuts with it. If a kid had a runny nose, kid was out until they visited a doctor and got a note and covid test. No fever needed, no apparent sickness, just a runny nose. And the siblings also had to be out even if zero symptoms, again until they went to urgent care and got tested.

Insanity.

Many of those policies were put in place before rapid home tests were widely available and when childcare centers were trying to prevent outbreaks that could shut down an entire facility. Some of the rules look excessive in hindsight, but they were also being made with limited information and few practical alternatives.

Sure, some of those policies should have been adjusted sooner as the evidence improved.

 

[sixstar]

The initial clinical trials did use prevention of symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 as the primary endpoint. That's true. But those trials were conducted before variants like Delta and Omicron emerged. As the virus evolved and more real-world data became available, public health messaging shifted to reflect what the evidence was showing, not necessarily because the vaccines had "failed," but because their effectiveness against infection declined while protection against hospitalization and death remained much stronger. No serious virologist was unaware that RNA viruses mutate.

Can you find me any mention from CDC / Fauci / Walensky stating that yearly COVID boosters were inevitable to adapt to the mutations?
Robert Malone said it, and he was treated as a conspiracy theorist and de-platformed. Toronto made fun of Malone when I mentioned his statements about the virus mutating back in 2022 (that aged poorly, Toronto).

If you believe that the experts knew that the virus would mutate, do you believe that they properly informed the public of the need for yearly COVID boosters to maintain immunity/protection prior to the vax mandates that started in Spring 2021 and forced people out of jobs and military members out of service?

If you want nuance, you won't find it with CDC, FDA, or any of the "experts."
"Safe and effective." No asterisk, no disclosure of side effects or waning immunity. Just safe and effective. And that over simplistic messaging encouraged the boldness to enact vax mandates.

Influenza viruses mutate rapidly too, yet flu vaccines are still considered valuable because they reduce severe illness even when they don't completely prevent infection.

Valuable is not the same as mandatory. The narrative is completely different if the COVID shots were optional.

With CDC definition, it's accurate that the wording changed but the previous definition wasn't a scientific standard that every vaccine had to achieve sterilizing immunity. Many vaccines used long before COVID such as the influenza vaccine and pertussis vaccine reduce the risk of disease and severe outcomes without preventing every infection. The 2021 wording was intended to better reflect how vaccines work across different diseases, not to redefine COVID vaccines after the fact.

So, you believe that CDC's decision to change the definition of vaccine in September 2021 was completely unrelated to the fact that Delta had been spreading across vaccinated cohorts all summer? What are the odds...

It's fair to criticize aspects of pandemic communication. Some officials made statements with more certainty than the evidence ultimately supported, particularly regarding transmission. But that's different from saying the science itself was rewritten or that the concept of vaccination fundamentally changed. The evidence consistently showed that COVID vaccines substantially reduced the risk of severe disease, hospitalization, and death, even as their ability to prevent infection decreased with new variants.

Let's add nuance to that statement. I've provided ample evidence using raw, properly stratified, country-wide data that shows vax efficacy vs. hospitalization and death is negligible in cohorts under 60 years of age. Public, Government-level, raw data - the golden standard for statisticians. Why didn't the US ever publish raw data, if the UK did?

Do me a favor and tell me what the Absolute Risk Reduction (ARR) of hospitalization and death is for working-age individuals who took the shot. Then tell me the Number Needed to Treat (NNT) for those age groups. I've posted them here in this thread. Then provide me with a logical explanation for vaccine mandates for working age citizens given these numbers.

At the end of the day, it's just great to see people get upset at public figures who have outsized opinions of themselves. Good to see the consistency from the posters upset at Fauci's diary also carry this smoke for other figures.

world's biggest /s

lol'd at this one. Fauci and Trump are two peas in a pod.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Trump sucked on Covid, so did Biden.

You forgot PPP loans that enriched businesses that didn't need help and did nothing for the worst affected.

Also - GFY Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_convoy_protest

PPP probably helped keep some businesses and workers afloat early on, but it also led to enormous waste, fraud, and windfalls for companies that weren't truly at risk. That's par for the course these days. The amount of money the government has given to people who absolutely do not need it has been a national past time for decades.

Countries all over the world were making difficult and flawed decisions during the first global pandemic in a century. United States and Canada included.

 

[RudyVerse]

Many of those policies were put in place before rapid home tests were widely available and when childcare centers were trying to prevent outbreaks that could shut down an entire facility. Some of the rules look excessive in hindsight, but they were also being made with limited information and few practical alternatives.

Sure, some of those policies should have been adjusted sooner as the evidence improved.

They were insane the and insane now. No hindsight was needed. “No symptoms is one of the symptoms” lol.