COVID-19

Irishize

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Media scolding citizens w/o masks.

Citizen points out that media’s cameraman & crew are not wearing masks.

Way to “sell it” MSNBC.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is the greatest video clip in the history of MSNBC (low bar, I know).<br><br>Wait for it...<br><br>"Including the cameraman..."<a href="https://t.co/q9fZpIvjhC">pic.twitter.com/q9fZpIvjhC</a></p>— Jason Howerton (@jason_howerton) <a href="https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1265381156574330885?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

ARALOU

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Like other viruses, disease, murder rate, suicide rate & auto accidents, etc. Yes, I agree w/ you...small & insignificant until it personally affects you. I saw plenty of pics over Memorial Day of widows & children lying at their dad’s tombstone or accepting a folded American flag on behalf of their father. None of them died from COVID-19 but that doesn’t lessen their deaths either.


Huh? What does that mean? You lecturing me on Memorial Day? I stated, in a covid thread, that if you aren't directly affected then it probably seems like anything else. There happens to be a folded flag on a bookshelf next to bronze star narrative in my living room. So I don't need someone comparing that to this. I am aware.
 

TorontoGold

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This thread boggles my mind. We are closing in on 100K deaths. If we didn’t shut down the economy we would be a couple hundred thousand higher. What is the acceptable amount of death? If our President has treated it as anything other than a hoax, and instead ramped up our response. Maybe we could have avoided a shutdown. If we had better contact tracing and testing (thanks CDC) maybe we could have avoided a shutdown. If Americans could fucking put on a mask and follow rules, maybe we could have had a shorter shutdown.

It's a circular thread mostly, seems like a lot of people went to the Rand Paul school of disease control. "Look at the mortality rate for kids!!1!1! Send them back!" Except they seem to forget kids usually dont live on their own.

1. Apparently this like any other disease (see Irishize's posts).
2. Fauci is a liar, wrong, a puppet. He's their fall guy, and who gets the blame.
3. The economy would have been just fine it had been left open. No way would businesses have been forced to shutdown if they outbreaks.
4. Nobody could see this coming, there's no playbook for this. Except the precious admin was working on one. Plus, what does that say about your preparedness if you hadn't considered this?
5. Any criticism = never Trumper
6. Oh, and all the models were wrong. Yeah, no shit, most of the models were predicated on following some sort of stay at home order. Beating the models is a good thing, not sure why it isn't celebrated - instead nope Fauci and his cabal of liars duped us!

It's unfortunate that there's a lot of back and forth that blocks out the people in medicine and their posts.
 
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Legacy93

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If we hadn’t shut down our economy, our death rate would be even higher. You have to flatten the curve. If not many people that could have been saved (or were saved) would have died due to lack of beds, equipment and qualified practitioners. This is not rocket science. Yes there is collateral damage in the form of mental health and loss of wages. There is always a sacrifice to be made, sometimes the lesser of 2 evils has to be chosen.

Most people in this thread seem to be focused on the continued shut down of the economy, not that there shouldn't have been a shutdown at all. It's a risk-benefit analysis - when the shut down was first enacted, we knew little about the disease and the risk was potentially huge. Now, we know more - we have better ideas of prevalence, the fatality rate, primary transmission mechanisms, etc. and the evidence appears to suggest that a thoughtful reopening makes sense given the risks of a continued shutdown and the associated economic damage, psycho-social toll on people, etc. The fact that some states seem to (1) have moved the goalposts from "flatten the curve" to "eliminate the virus" and/or (2) have arbitrarily decided to hold-off re-openings (may not be arbitrary but the supporting evidence and logical framework are lacking in my opinion) is beginning to feel like it is taking on the trappings of authoritarianism in the name of science.

I think we agree that the lesser of two evils needs to be chosen in some situations - I am suggesting that exact framework is what everyone is currently debating and is leading to the various conclusions many are reaching in this thread.
 
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Legacy93

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It's a circular thread mostly, seems like a lot of people went to the Rand Paul school of disease control. "Look at the mortality rate for kids!!1!1! Send them back!" Except they seem to forget kids usually dont live on their own.

1. Apparently this like any other disease (see Irishize's posts).
2. Fauci is a liar, wrong, a puppet. He's their fall guy, and who gets the blame.
3. The economy would have been just fine it had been left open. No way would businesses have been forced to shutdown if they outbreaks.
4. Nobody could see this coming, there's no playbook for this. Except the precious admin was working on one. Plus, what does that say about your preparedness if you hadn't considered this?
5. Any criticism = never Trumper
6. Oh, and all the models were wrong. Yeah, no shit, most of the models were predicated on following some sort of stay at home order. Beating the models is a good thing, not sure why it isn't celebrated - instead nope Fauci and his cabal of liars duped us!

It's unfortunate that there's a lot of back and forth that blocks out the people in medicine and their posts.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but there is an element of the decision to reopen that is a values-based assessment and science can only provide information to help navigate through the values-based assessment; it can't determine the framework and balance competing values. That is where we non-scientists play a role - the government should be of the people for the people and so the values-based back and forth needs to continue imo (not all of the non-sense you're correctly calling out).

Jenkin's NYT Opinion piece put a nice, fine edge on this for me (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/opinion/notre-dame-university-coronavirus.html)
 

ab2cmiller

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Most people in this thread seem to be focused on the continued shut down of the economy, not that there shouldn't have been a shutdown at all. It's a risk-benefit analysis - when the shut down was first enacted, we knew little about the disease and the risk was potentially huge. Now, we know more - we have better ideas of prevalence, the fatality rate, primary transmission mechanisms, etc. and the evidence appears to suggest that a thoughtful reopening makes sense given the risks of a continued shutdown and the associated economic damage, psycho-social toll on people, etc. The fact that some states seem to (1) have moved the goalposts from "flatten the curve" to "eliminate the virus" and/or (2) have arbitrarily decided to hold-off re-openings (may not be arbitrary but the supporting evidence and logical framework are lacking in my opinion) is beginning to feel like it is taking on the trappings of authoritarianism in the name of science.

I think we agree that the lesser of two evils needs to be chosen in some situations - I am suggesting that exact framework is what everyone is currently debating and is leading to the various conclusions many are reaching in this thread.

Great post.

Most people at the time thought the lock down was necessary to flatten the curve to not overwhelm the healthcare system, improve testing and to buy some time in getting supplies and equipment. In hindsight, maybe the lock downs didn't need to be quite so long or they could've been more targeted. But I don't spend much time dwelling on that now. I give my Governor the benefit of the doubt on that one.

It's pretty clear now that there will not be any huge spikes after reopening. There could be some slight increases, but it certainly appears to be manageable.
 

TorontoGold

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I agree with a lot of what you said, but there is an element of the decision to reopen that is a values-based assessment and science can only provide information to help navigate through the values-based assessment; it can't determine the framework and balance competing values. That is where we non-scientists play a role - the government should be of the people for the people and so the values-based back and forth needs to continue imo (not all of the non-sense you're correctly calling out).

Jenkin's NYT Opinion piece put a nice, fine edge on this for me (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/26/opinion/notre-dame-university-coronavirus.html)

Yes sir, I totally agree with you and the points Jenkin's made. (Man, it's refreshing to see your posts lol)

I'm working with my firm's transition team right now too, and our biggest challenge is making people feel safe getting back to work. I think once that hurdle is crossed for everyone, then we're full steam ahead.
 

Irishize

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Huh? What does that mean? You lecturing me on Memorial Day? I stated, in a covid thread, that if you aren't directly affected then it probably seems like anything else. There happens to be a folded flag on a bookshelf next to bronze star narrative in my living room. So I don't need someone comparing that to this. I am aware.

No. I was agreeing w/ you and noting the heightened awareness of just that over Memorial Day.
 

Irishize

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Most people in this thread seem to be focused on the continued shut down of the economy, not that there shouldn't have been a shutdown at all. It's a risk-benefit analysis - when the shut down was first enacted, we knew little about the disease and the risk was potentially huge. Now, we know more - we have better ideas of prevalence, the fatality rate, primary transmission mechanisms, etc. and the evidence appears to suggest that a thoughtful reopening makes sense given the risks of a continued shutdown and the associated economic damage, psycho-social toll on people, etc. The fact that some states seem to (1) have moved the goalposts from "flatten the curve" to "eliminate the virus" and/or (2) have arbitrarily decided to hold-off re-openings (may not be arbitrary but the supporting evidence and logical framework are lacking in my opinion) is beginning to feel like it is taking on the trappings of authoritarianism in the name of science.

I think we agree that the lesser of two evils needs to be chosen in some situations - I am suggesting that exact framework is what everyone is currently debating and is leading to the various conclusions many are reaching in this thread.

Yes! This..100%. We rely on public policy to set standards based on risk/benefit analysis. You crystallized the thoughts of most folks on here IMO. Reps
 

irishff1014

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I heard on the radio this morning that Maryland is advertising for people to still take their healthy children to the doctors to get their regular vaccinations. Nice so now we have parents not getting their kids the vaccinations they need lovely.
 

ARALOU

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Like other viruses, disease, murder rate, suicide rate & auto accidents, etc. Yes, I agree w/ you...small & insignificant until it personally affects you. I saw plenty of pics over Memorial Day of widows & children lying at their dad’s tombstone or accepting a folded American flag on behalf of their father. None of them died from COVID-19 but that doesn’t lessen their deaths either.

No. I was agreeing w/ you and noting the heightened awareness of just that over Memorial Day.


My apologies for the snarkiness.
 

Irishize

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It's a circular thread mostly, seems like a lot of people went to the Rand Paul school of disease control. "Look at the mortality rate for kids!!1!1! Send them back!" Except they seem to forget kids usually dont live on their own.

1. Apparently this like any other disease (see Irishize's posts).
2. Fauci is a liar, wrong, a puppet. He's their fall guy, and who gets the blame.
3. The economy would have been just fine it had been left open. No way would businesses have been forced to shutdown if they outbreaks.
4. Nobody could see this coming, there's no playbook for this. Except the precious admin was working on one. Plus, what does that say about your preparedness if you hadn't considered this?
5. Any criticism = never Trumper
6. Oh, and all the models were wrong. Yeah, no shit, most of the models were predicated on following some sort of stay at home order. Beating the models is a good thing, not sure why it isn't celebrated - instead nope Fauci and his cabal of liars duped us!

It's unfortunate that there's a lot of back and forth that blocks out the people in medicine and their posts.

1. Yes, it can lead to death like other diseases.
2. I never said Fauci was a liar.
3. Who specifically stated this?
4. Agree
5. Disagree but you may be referring to others who have stated this. I don’t recall anyone saying this but feel free to correct me. I think it’s you who think anyone who disagrees w/ any aspect of the shutdowns is a Trump apologist. I know there’s plenty of posters who voted for Trump but even they have criticized him & acknowledged his idiocy & childishness.
6. I missed about a week on here due to work but who specifically is blaming everything on Fauci?

You’re no more above the fray than anyone else on here. Legacy93’s post summed this entire thread up perfectly. You were correct about it being circular in its arguments but that’s coming from both sides as neither side deigns to listen to the other.

This is the nature of message boards. When disagreements emerge, it turns into a big pissing contest riddled w/ condescension, smugness, cynicism & conspiracy theories. Both sides post peer-reviewed, statistically significant trials &/or articles to support their argument yet can’t understand why the folks dissenting view don’t just throw up their hands in surrender & admit they were wrong.

It does strike me as humorous when the most self-important posters on this thread have all the time in the world to post long diatribes about how they are the expert on the entire matter of the pandemic b/c they are employed by a hospital. That’s great if you just want to impart your knowledge to a few aspects and how it relates to your area of the country...I can appreciate that . But the condescendingly scolding anyone who dares to disagree whether it be subjectively or objectively is sad.
 

Irishize

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My apologies for the snarkiness.

None needed. It’s a message board which is all the proof I need to agree w/ my wife when she says men are the inferior communicators. Same applies on texts & emails too.
 

Irishize

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I heard on the radio this morning that Maryland is advertising for people to still take their healthy children to the doctors to get their regular vaccinations. Nice so now we have parents not getting their kids the vaccinations they need lovely.

Suicide hotlines are up 1000% as are suicides in general. Why is the under 30 crowd suffering the most anxiety yet by the DATA are the least likely to die from COVID-19? Tons of small businesses are gone and won’t be coming back. Economists haven’t been very bullish about the economy bouncing back anytime soon.

Elective procedures are down which means fewer early cancer diagnoses & detection of CV issues. I work w/ oncology clinics & most have seen a decline in chemo visits due to COVID. Even gynecological-oncology where an ovarian cancer patient would normally have a debulking surgery to remove as much of the tumor as possible is put on hold due to COVID. Sadly for those patients, cancer doesn’t stop growing b/c of a coronavirus.

That’s why the scientists need to come together w/ the policy makers and find the best of the worst scenarios. Sometimes it can boil down to lack of communication. I’m afraid it’s too political though in this instance.
 
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TorontoGold

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1. Yes, it can lead to death like other diseases.
2. I never said Fauci was a liar.
3. Who specifically stated this?
4. Agree
5. Disagree but you may be referring to others who have stated this. I don’t recall anyone saying this but feel free to correct me. I think it’s you who think anyone who disagrees w/ any aspect of the shutdowns is a Trump apologist. I know there’s plenty of posters who voted for Trump but even they have criticized him & acknowledged his idiocy & childishness.
6. I missed about a week on here due to work but who specifically is blaming everything on Fauci?

You’re no more above the fray than anyone else on here. Legacy93’s post summed this entire thread up perfectly. You were correct about it being circular in its arguments but that’s coming from both sides as neither side deigns to listen to the other.

This is the nature of message boards. When disagreements emerge, it turns into a big pissing contest riddled w/ condescension, smugness, cynicism & conspiracy theories. Both sides post peer-reviewed, statistically significant trials &/or articles to support their argument yet can’t understand why the folks dissenting view don’t just throw up their hands in surrender & admit they were wrong.

It does strike me as humorous when the most self-important posters on this thread have all the time in the world to post long diatribes about how they are the expert on the entire matter of the pandemic b/c they are employed by a hospital. That’s great if you just want to impart your knowledge to a few aspects and how it relates to your area of the country...I can appreciate that . But the condescendingly scolding anyone who dares to disagree whether it be subjectively or objectively is sad.

To your points:

1. It's a novel virus, so no, it's not like other diseases.
2. I wasn't addressing you or making specific reference to you (You're actually fairly open minded compared to some of the other posters.)
3. Should have put italics here, was making a point that the economy would not have been fine if there were no stay at home orders. Look at Feb for example of the markets tanking.
5. No need to project here. The reason why I don't post in that Trump thread is because any form of criticism is met with "never trumper". Enough on that subject.
6. Literally a couple pages back you can some posts with videos calling Fauci a political hack. Or there's the podcast with the guys talking about Fauci flip flopping around.

I know you like to say both sides are take part in smugness but literally only ever call out left leaning posters. It's fine, just own it. I lean left and I support the posters that share my views, and there's posters from the other side that I respect because they can articulate their points well.

The reason why people get so frustrated is because for the beginning of April (you can go back and look at like pages 55 to 58) people were chalking it up to being less than the flu. Go look back at Loomis and Sea Turtle's posts. That's why people get upset, you have people trying to post from their state or countries perspective and then in the midst of it you've got "Throw a mask on and get to work" or "Don't underestimate the flu".
 

ARALOU

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None needed. It’s a message board which is all the proof I need to agree w/ my wife when she says men are the inferior communicators. Same applies on texts & emails too.

LOL, glad I helped prove that.
 

Legacy

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pkt,

Reps on your posts. They are right on. In fairness - for lack of a better description - posters have their opinions and just may be on issues they are not aware of. The Governors of the states did act quickly and appropriately working with their communities as the pandemic spread. They got none of the expected support from the federal government.

There certainly was a playbook called the Pandemic Preparedness and Response Act passed in 2006, obligated the Executive Branch to set up Preparedness plans for appropriate agencies to be run by the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Health. Here's the CDC's as part of HHS. After the H1N1 Influenza pandemic, the Government Accounting Office reviewed how it functioned as Congress intended. A quote from the beginning of their review:

The 2009 H1N1 influenza pandemic was the first human pandemic in over four decades, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimate that there were as many as 89 million U.S. cases. Over $6 billion was available for the response, led by the Departments of Health and Human Services (HHS) and Homeland Security (DHS), with coordination provided by the Homeland Security Council (HSC) through its National Security Staff (NSS). In particular, HHS's CDC worked with states and localities to communicate with the public and to distribute H1N1 vaccine and supplies. GAO was asked (1) how HHS used the funding, (2) the key issues raised by the federal response, and (3) the actions taken to identify and incorporate lessons learned. GAO reviewed documents and interviewed officials from five states about their interaction with the federal government. GAO also reviewed documents and interviewed officials from HHS, DHS, the Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), NSS, and others, such as associations.
The link also has Recommendations and is 67 pages long. The CDC's is 233 pages long. The DoD's is 87 pages long. Each state was required to set up their own pandemic preparedness plan.

The Defense Department established their Preparedness plan as part of the Act as did Homeland Security, DHS (links above) and each state.

When it was quite apparent there was human-to-human transmission in January, we should have followed the Plan, shutdown in early Feb hard to flatten the curve earlier with less impact on the economy. We had acting heads of DHS and DHH and those long-time deputy assistants with experience and knowledge of our pandemic response plans and how they functioned in 2009 were fired and not replaced.

The Defense Department has followed their plan (but for having to have our most experienced aircraft carrier commander fired for speaking out). Testing on board to see who was positive. Isolating those who were negative for two weeks. Quarantining those who were positive. Retesting all and moving those who were negative and turned positive to quarantine. The Defense Department has lengthened the time those positive cases are quarantined from two weeks to three weeks. They have canceled all overseas travel by personnel as well as imposing the mitigation measures drawn up in their Pandemic Preparedness Response plan and based on long-held public health measures that date back into the 1800s.

To say the least, Congress was pissed, called the appropriate heads of the Agencies who should have implemented the Pandemic Response Plan according to their bipartisan Act. Those acting heads of those Departments were totally unfamiliar with the actions expected to be taken under the law.

Not picking on anyone, but just to make it very clear, "nobody could see this coming, there's no playbook for this" (in italics) and noted as the Rand Paul school of disease control (love the title) is something we can all agree on is false and that there are specific and detailed responses, which as an example the Defense Department followed on CDC prepardedness plans.

YJ, I believe, and perhaps others may have also provided links to these plans earlier.
 
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Legacy

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You do realize that a large portion of the US population that is under 65 have comorbidities, right? Hypertension, diabetes and obesity or rampant in the US. That doesn’t even get into issues such as hear disease, breathing issues (asthma, etc.) and immuno compromised individuals. I bet about half if not more of adults 35-64 have some form of comorbidity.

The risks with COVID also increase by sex, preferring males with the risk of dying at a 2:1 ratio. Another factor is race with minority deaths much higher. Obesity is the major contributor to diabetes and cardiac conditions, as you noted.

So add males and minorities to higher mortality risk groups with COVID-19.

As far as obesity stats, they are fairly consistent in age groups:
Non-Hispanic blacks (49.6%) had the highest age-adjusted prevalence of obesity, followed by Hispanics (44.8%), non-Hispanic whites (42.2%) and non-Hispanic Asians (17.4%).
The prevalence of obesity was 40.0% among young adults aged 20 to 39 years, 44.8% among middle-aged adults aged 40 to 59 years, and 42.8% among older adults aged 60 and older.

By 2030, nearly one in two adults will be obese, and nearly one in four will be severely obese (termed morbid obesity).
 
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Woneone

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What specific pieces of information known at the end of January, such as number of confirmed cases, WHO statements, would you have used to justify locking the country down at that time?

I’ve skimmed through some of those plans outlined above. Which one of those states, using those metrics you would have selected, that a total lockdown would be in order?

I’m not disagreeing that we were slow to the punch, but this seems like a lot of hindsight. There is a difference between the selection that would have lead to to the preferred outcome with the power of hindsight vs those decisions made supported by the data (not to mention what Ive read in the action plans) at the time the decision was made.

Earlier in this thread, you outlined why hospitals would potentially send patients back to long-term care facilities even after a coronavirus diagnosis. With the power of hindsight, Was that still the right call? Or did the models suggesting an overflow of hospital bed utilization maybe lead us to decisions that were incorrect?
 

Bishop2b5

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And remember, WHO was toting China's water and playing Goebbels to their Hitler, telling us there was nothing to worry about, they had it under control, and it couldn't be transmitted from one person to another.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there needs to be a safety net available for the people who face a greater risk of contracting COVID. If your job is a people facing job or something to that effect, and you get COVID you shouldn't face financial ruin for it.

That's fair.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Really? What is many? Even in the New York which was the hardest hit state, the max is about 20%. Many other states are in the single digits. Hard to call that many...

Just stating what we know to be true. If you're relatively young and healthy you're not at high risk.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Is it? Your decisions don’t just harm you they could harm everyone around you. Great you want to go to the beach. Your decision might be yours but if you infect your coworkers your actions harm much more than you. What if you require a ventilator and are now a burden on the healthcare system. Maybe you are taking a ventilator that could have gone to someone who followed all the rules. Someone who got it from a jackass worker who went to the beach and spread it.

The curve was flattened. Numbers are going down. If you want to stay in, stay in. If you think everyone needs to stay home until we find a vaccine, that isn't acceptable.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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If we hadn’t shut down our economy, our death rate would be even higher. You have to flatten the curve. If not many people that could have been saved (or were saved) would have died due to lack of beds, equipment and qualified practitioners. This is not rocket science. Yes there is collateral damage in the form of mental health and loss of wages. There is always a sacrifice to be made, sometimes the lesser of 2 evils has to be chosen.

Here's the thing...most Americans played by the rules. We stayed home for weeks, some of us for months and STILL are. We did flatten the curve. We did wear masks, and some still have to.

Shutting down our economy for a few weeks in a global pandemic was a sacrifice Americans were willing to make and did make. Shutting down an economy for months is catastrophic and unrealistic. There's no coming back from it.

People in some states are pretty damn close to living their normal lives again, while others (I'm in PA) still can't go to a restaurant, barber shop, dentist, etc.
 

Sea Turtle

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To your points:

1. It's a novel virus, so no, it's not like other diseases.
2. I wasn't addressing you or making specific reference to you (You're actually fairly open minded compared to some of the other posters.)
3. Should have put italics here, was making a point that the economy would not have been fine if there were no stay at home orders. Look at Feb for example of the markets tanking.
5. No need to project here. The reason why I don't post in that Trump thread is because any form of criticism is met with "never trumper". Enough on that subject.
6. Literally a couple pages back you can some posts with videos calling Fauci a political hack. Or there's the podcast with the guys talking about Fauci flip flopping around.

I know you like to say both sides are take part in smugness but literally only ever call out left leaning posters. It's fine, just own it. I lean left and I support the posters that share my views, and there's posters from the other side that I respect because they can articulate their points well.

The reason why people get so frustrated is because for the beginning of April (you can go back and look at like pages 55 to 58) people were chalking it up to being less than the flu. Go look back at Loomis and Sea Turtle's posts. That's why people get upset, you have people trying to post from their state or countries perspective and then in the midst of it you've got "Throw a mask on and get to work" or "Don't underestimate the flu".

It's not even close in worldwide deaths as Spanish flu, 1957 flu or 1968 flu. You seriously underestimate the flu. Like most people.

This is dangerous to old people. So are a lot of things. You don't destroy the country just so 85 year old grandma and grandpa are sure to live to 86.
You don't destroy the country because you don't want doctors and nurses to have the inconvenience of being overworked.

100,000 elderly people have died. It happens many years. Doesn't it make much more sense to have the elderly 'stay home, stay safe' instead of the whole freaking country?
 

Sea Turtle

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Here's the thing...most Americans played by the rules. We stayed home for weeks, some of us for months and STILL are. We did flatten the curve. We did wear masks, and some still have to.

Shutting down our economy for a few weeks in a global pandemic was a sacrifice Americans were willing to make and did make. Shutting down an economy for months is catastrophic and unrealistic. There's no coming back from it.

People in some states are pretty damn close to living their normal lives again, while others (I'm in PA) still can't go to a restaurant, barber shop, dentist, etc.

Yes. Yes. We aren't doing this shit anymore.
 

TorontoGold

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It's not even close in worldwide deaths as Spanish flu, 1957 flu or 1968 flu. You seriously underestimate the flu. Like most people.

This is dangerous to old people. So are a lot of things. You don't destroy the country just so 85 year old grandma and grandpa are sure to live to 86.
You don't destroy the country because you don't want doctors and nurses to have the inconvenience of being overworked.

100,000 elderly people have died. It happens many years. Doesn't it make much more sense to have the elderly 'stay home, stay safe' instead of the whole freaking country?

You, seriously don't grasp this at all. It's so apparent. Why do we need to compare it events that happened with completely different healthcare systems? That's pure idiocy.

That is such an insanely ignorant thing to say. I bet there's people on this very forum that know someone who's passed away that isn't 80+.
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
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You, seriously don't grasp this at all. It's so apparent. Why do we need to compare it events that happened with completely different healthcare systems? That's pure idiocy.

That is such an insanely ignorant thing to say. I bet there's people on this very forum that know someone who's passed away that isn't 80+.

Stop it. You disagree with me so that means that I 'dont get it'. We all get it. It's important to compare to historical pandemics so you can get perspective. And on a pandemic scale, this is about a 1.

Healthy people should not have to live their lives as if they were the Bubble Boy from Seinfeld.

Elderly and immune compromised should be doing the 'stay home, stay safe'. 'We're all in this together', 'no job, no prob' bullshit that we've had shoved down are throats for three months now.
 
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