Case closed on roughing the snapper

L

LindseyNelson

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Much debate has arisen among fans and media over a roughing the snapper call made against Notre Dame. Both coaches have even weighed in on the subject. Coach Weiss said he believes the call was an "error." Coach Sarkisian agreed with the call, saying the violation was "blatant."

My review of the official rule and approved rulings, in light of available video evidence, confirms that the call was correct. Indeed, the video evidence provides textbook illustration for proper enforcement of the rule, and should be used as instructional guidance for all referees.

Rule 9-1-2-o states: "When a team is in scrimmage kick formation, a defensive player may not initiate contact with the snapper until one second has elapsed after the snap (A.R. 9-1-2-XVIII-XX)."

Approved Ruling 9-1-2-XVIII gives the following illustration of what is NOT a violation of the rule:

"Immediately after the snap, with Team A in an obvious scrimmage kick formation, noseguard B71 attempts to “shoot the gap” between the snapper and the adjacent lineman. B71’s initial legal contact is with the lineman next to the snapper. RULING: Legal. Incidental contact with the snapper after this initial legal contact is not a foul"

Watch video of the Huskies' PAT after Locker's touchdown run at 10:10 of the first quarter and you will see Irish NG Ian Williams #95 penetrating into the 'A' gap. In this particular instance I would agree with what Weis said: ". . . It didn't look to me like he was trying to go through the [snapper's] helmet."

However, if you compare that PAT with the roughing the snapper call made on the Huskies FG at 5:35 of the 4th quarter you can clearly see the difference between penetrating the 'A' gap and a full on bull rush by a 295 pound nose guard trying to go right through Huskies' long snapper #49 Danny Morovick.

Approved Ruling 9-1-2-XIX gives the following example of a proper call of roughing the snapper:

"Team A is in an obvious scrimmage kick formation. Immediately after the snap, nose guard B55 charges directly at the snapper, contacts him, and drives him backward. The ball is snapped to an upback three yards behind the scrimmage line or to the potential kicker, who instead runs with or passes the ball. RULING: Foul. Penalty—15 yards and automatic first down. The snapper may not be contacted until one second has elapsed after the snap when Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation"

The point of this approved ruling is to demonstrate that the snapper is protected whenever in kick formation, even if it turns out to be a fake kick. The key language is the phrase: "Immediately after the snap, nose guard ... charges directly at the snapper, contacts him, and drives him backward."

Weis might have a case for publicly criticizing the official's call had there been any inconsistency in the enforcement of the rule. There was no inconsistency. I have reviewed every FG and PAT by both teams. The rule was consistently enforced throughout the game and the call was only made on the one occasion where it was, as Sarkisian put it, "blatant."

In several instances the Huskies' NG lined up on the Irish long snapper's right shoulder--just like the Irish NG did when the roughing call was made--but the difference is that the Huskies' NG did not try to go through the snapper. The clearest example is on the Irish 21 yd FG at 12:51 of the 3rd quarter. This FG came at the same end zone where the 4th quarter roughing call was made and the NBC camera captures the action from behind the goal posts in both instances, giving identical perspectives for comparison. You see the Huskies' NG lined up on the Irish long snapper's right shoulder. At the snap he tries to penetrate the A-gap and the Irish long snapper is free to stand up and push him to the side. Once again, compare that to the Huskies' Morovick immediately fighting for his life against a full on bull rush where you can see the real potential for a whiplash injury as his head snaps back violently on impact.

Coach Sarkisian said it was "blatant." One could make a case for calling it "flagrant" which would have required disqualification of the Notre Dame nose guard under Rule 9-1-1.
 

wpchief4

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it wasn't a PAT attempt, it was field goal. Besides how come its never called besides against ND. another case of a conference trying to screw ND
 

AlumniHall98

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I'm sorry, but can anyone honestly say they have EVER heard that call made before? I am certain that this rule is violated all the time, and forgive me for not being a purist here, but there is NO WAY that call can be made at THAT point in the game!!! I mean, that was a call that essentially gives Washington the football game, if not for our stout defensive stance on the goal line. You just cannot make that call at that time, especially on a penalty that is SO rarely called, I bet most of the posters on this site had never even heard of it before. Just ludicrous, I don't care WHAT the rule book says!!
 

tko

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the coach of Notre Dame football is Charlie Weis. anyone know Weiss? Walt Weiss used to play shortstop for the Oakland A's.
 

kmoose

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it wasn't a PAT attempt, it was field goal. Besides how come its never called besides against ND. another case of a conference trying to screw ND

The rule doesn't specify a PAT, PAT was used as an illustration of what is a violation of the rule. Any scrimmage kick (PAT, FG, punt) falls under this rule.
 

no.1IrishFan

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The point is that if you watch 10 pat's or field goals, I bet it happens 9-10 times. There is no effing way you make that call at that point in the game unless the officials are trying to screw you!
 

GO IRISH!!!

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I would love to hear from guys like Jordan Cowart or Braxton Cave about how often opponents wait 1 second after the snap until initiating contact with the snapper.

This is a bullshit call that probably happens all the time, but is rarely called. It's like a traveling call in the NBA nowadays. Everyone does it, but it only gets called a few times.
 

FrankMA

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I would love to hear from guys like Jordan Cowart or Braxton Cave about how often opponents wait 1 second after the snap until initiating contact with the snapper.

This is a bullshit call that probably happens all the time, but is rarely called. It's like a traveling call in the NBA nowadays. Everyone does it, but it only gets called a few times.

Yes, I am 60 years old and have watched or listened to football almost my whole life and I don't recall the last time I have seen it called and I am sure it could be called often. It should never have been called in that situation.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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LindseyNelson, I'm not impressed. Look at the replay and how quickly the ref through the flag.

Predetermined?

Traveling in the closing seconds of the game?
 

ND_HAS_RISEN

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This is absolutely HOGWASH!!! I don't care what the rules say. The rules also say that face guarding is illegal too, but that is hardly ever called. I have played and watched football for years and HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT CALLED. I was a DLINE player for a D1 school myself and i can personally guarentee you that there was no way in hell i was waiting 1 second before engaging, and I was never called for the penalty. Seriously, posting something like this is just plain absurd. There is no way the a referee should have an outcome on the game, and that referee was clearing trying to influence the outcome. You can slow it down, you can quote rules, you can do whatever in the hell you want, THERE IS NO WAY I WILL EVER AGREE THAT WAS THE CORRECT CALL, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

IrishAddiction

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When we went for FGs, PATs when i was in HS, we were taught to immediately down block, allowing no penetration through the middle. If the Defense has a person in the either the 0 or 1 gaps, the person will likely be pushed toward the center AKA the snapper. After myself watching it many times, this is clearly what happened.

Should have been a no call. Ian did not in any way try to run through or purposely contact the long snapper, but was only trying to penetrate his assigned gap. Bullshit call, bullshit post.

Its all mout now anyways...... WASHINGTON, not the refs, lost the game. Just like ND lost the game vs michigan. When given the chance to win, you capitalize. ND did. Washington did not. Sarkisian sounded like a bitch complaining about the refs. Dont make excuses because when your team had the chance to seal the win, they did not. You can question it (like CW did against Michigan), but not blantantly call out the refs. Makes him look like an ass.
 

kmoose

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This is absolutely HOGWASH!!! I don't care what the rules say. The rules also say that face guarding is illegal too, but that is hardly ever called.

I thought face guarding was NOT illegal, at the collegiate level. I have always been under the impression that face guarding is an NFL rule, but not a college rule.
 

TDHeysus

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this rule sucks...whatever the reason the rule was instated is wrong. The long snapper doesnt need any 'protection' he is a LINEMAN!!!!

This rule is as ghey as the 'tuck rule' in the NFL.
 

Nothingman

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I've only seen this called one other time, also on Notre Dame. I believe it was the 2006 Stanford game on a punt. I was just as pissed then as I was after the call in the UW game.
 

Swash

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When the ref said "roughing the snapper" I thought it was a mistake and he meant roughing the kicker and somehow I missed it.

I do remember being taught back in my rocket football days not to go after the snapper. This is the first time I've heard anyone say the phrase "roughing the snapper" since 6th grade. BS call.

But who cares now, we stopped them and showed we were the better team. Now let's go and beat USC!!!!!!
 

IrishSLC

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This could have cost ND the game at the end. But ND had only themselves to blame. They had no problem moving the ball but couldn't manage TD's. They came away with 5 FG's in regulation because they stalled inside the 30.

Can't do that against USC. Can't settle for 3. Can't leave points on the field. Defense has to wrap up (Unlike Polk) for losses.

GO IRISH!! BEAT SC!!!
 

DirtySecret

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Much debate has arisen among fans and media over a roughing the snapper call made against Notre Dame. Both coaches have even weighed in on the subject. Coach Weiss said he believes the call was an "error." Coach Sarkisian agreed with the call, saying the violation was "blatant."

My review of the official rule and approved rulings, in light of available video evidence, confirms that the call was correct. Indeed, the video evidence provides textbook illustration for proper enforcement of the rule, and should be used as instructional guidance for all referees.

Rule 9-1-2-o states: "When a team is in scrimmage kick formation, a defensive player may not initiate contact with the snapper until one second has elapsed after the snap (A.R. 9-1-2-XVIII-XX)."

Approved Ruling 9-1-2-XVIII gives the following illustration of what is NOT a violation of the rule:

"Immediately after the snap, with Team A in an obvious scrimmage kick formation, noseguard B71 attempts to “shoot the gap” between the snapper and the adjacent lineman. B71’s initial legal contact is with the lineman next to the snapper. RULING: Legal. Incidental contact with the snapper after this initial legal contact is not a foul"

Watch video of the Huskies' PAT after Locker's touchdown run at 10:10 of the first quarter and you will see Irish NG Ian Williams #95 penetrating into the 'A' gap. In this particular instance I would agree with what Weis said: ". . . It didn't look to me like he was trying to go through the [snapper's] helmet."

However, if you compare that PAT with the roughing the snapper call made on the Huskies FG at 5:35 of the 4th quarter you can clearly see the difference between penetrating the 'A' gap and a full on bull rush by a 295 pound nose guard trying to go right through Huskies' long snapper #49 Danny Morovick.

Approved Ruling 9-1-2-XIX gives the following example of a proper call of roughing the snapper:

"Team A is in an obvious scrimmage kick formation. Immediately after the snap, nose guard B55 charges directly at the snapper, contacts him, and drives him backward. The ball is snapped to an upback three yards behind the scrimmage line or to the potential kicker, who instead runs with or passes the ball. RULING: Foul. Penalty—15 yards and automatic first down. The snapper may not be contacted until one second has elapsed after the snap when Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation"

The point of this approved ruling is to demonstrate that the snapper is protected whenever in kick formation, even if it turns out to be a fake kick. The key language is the phrase: "Immediately after the snap, nose guard ... charges directly at the snapper, contacts him, and drives him backward."

Weis might have a case for publicly criticizing the official's call had there been any inconsistency in the enforcement of the rule. There was no inconsistency. I have reviewed every FG and PAT by both teams. The rule was consistently enforced throughout the game and the call was only made on the one occasion where it was, as Sarkisian put it, "blatant."

In several instances the Huskies' NG lined up on the Irish long snapper's right shoulder--just like the Irish NG did when the roughing call was made--but the difference is that the Huskies' NG did not try to go through the snapper. The clearest example is on the Irish 21 yd FG at 12:51 of the 3rd quarter. This FG came at the same end zone where the 4th quarter roughing call was made and the NBC camera captures the action from behind the goal posts in both instances, giving identical perspectives for comparison. You see the Huskies' NG lined up on the Irish long snapper's right shoulder. At the snap he tries to penetrate the A-gap and the Irish long snapper is free to stand up and push him to the side. Once again, compare that to the Huskies' Morovick immediately fighting for his life against a full on bull rush where you can see the real potential for a whiplash injury as his head snaps back violently on impact.

Coach Sarkisian said it was "blatant." One could make a case for calling it "flagrant" which would have required disqualification of the Notre Dame nose guard under Rule 9-1-1.


Rule 9, Section 3, Article 2B states: "The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress."

This also a rule, but it didn't stop the Pac 10 refs from not calling in 2005. The roughing the snapper penalty was BS, but it's not like the Pac 10 never trys to screw ND..

YouTube - Greatest Plays of the Weis Era - #8 - Grimes Makes Catch for the Ages
 
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Dizzyphil

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Rule 1, Section 1, Article 1A of Dizzyphil's ND games concerning the refs this year states; "Referees are allowed 3 to 4 bullshit calls during any Notre Dame game."


I think they have covered so far this year.


:devil_2:
 

phork

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This could have cost ND the game at the end. But ND had only themselves to blame. They had no problem moving the ball but couldn't manage TD's. They came away with 5 FG's in regulation because they stalled inside the 30.

Can't do that against USC. Can't settle for 3. Can't leave points on the field. Defense has to wrap up (Unlike Polk) for losses.

GO IRISH!! BEAT SC!!!

ND won the Washington game by kicking 3s. It was a learning moment for Charlie.
 

sonomairishfan

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When the ref said "roughing the snapper" I thought it was a mistake and he meant roughing the kicker and somehow I missed it.

I do remember being taught back in my rocket football days not to go after the snapper. This is the first time I've heard anyone say the phrase "roughing the snapper" since 6th grade. BS call.

But who cares now, we stopped them and showed we were the better team. Now let's go and beat USC!!!!!!

Ty W's first game against Stanford roughing the snapper was called. I was there and I thought it was a made up call. It is a rule.
 

jason_h537

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There was a time when he would have went for it. Without those 3s ND loses, even one.

Yeah butat that time he did not have a kicker. The better option was to go for it. Maybe it is not a learning experience but an upgrade in personell
 
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