BVG Fired

[NDgradstudent]

I think others here have made this point, but we should go after Aranda if Miles gets canned.

 

[CIrishWin]

we would hit but not wrap up...it reminded me of the bama game...one guy would hit and try wrapping up and a bunch of guys would slowly trot towards the play but not be ready to assist and then they are out of position for big gashes...they wanted it more and imposed their will...that's what stings

Could it be they were tired we heard about how many people looked good in camp but did not play in the game.

 

[DCirishfan]

Unless Kelly leaves too......

Kelly stays

 

[IrishBroker]

we would hit but not wrap up...it reminded me of the bama game...one guy would hit and try wrapping up and a bunch of guys would slowly trot towards the play but not be ready to assist and then they are out of position for big gashes...they wanted it more and imposed their will...that's what stings

This was a the worst. We'd start cheering up in the stands...only to watch Swoopes, Warren, of Foreman break the line and gain 3 or 4 yards.

Looked like we were either gassed, or we don't practice fundementals

 

[PANDFAN]

Could it be they were tired we heard about how many people looked good in camp but did not play in the game.

This was a the worst. We'd start cheering up in the stands...only to watch Swoopes, Warren, of Foreman break the line and gain 3 or 4 yards.

Looked like we were either gassed, or we don't practice fundementals

it was throughout the ENTIRE game

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I think others here have made this point, but we should go after Aranda if Miles gets canned.

If trades existed in college:

ND offers Zaire to LSU for Aranda. With the talent LSU brings in on defense, you could put a small town high school coach in as DC there and be fine

 

[AlabamaDuck]

BVG

BVG

It's not scheme, it's talent. Safety position is utterly dreadful, not even MAC level. Corners are OK but asked to do too much without enough help. Front 7 is just OK with some decent talent that flashes at times but is too inconsistent.

Texas is a lot better than people think but that's not really the point. The point is that the team lacks talent. In 2012 we had 5 NFL players in our front 7, and solid players in the back end with a scheme to protect them. Hasn't been the case since.

BVG had great defensive stats at Auburn. He also had some very good athletes.
I am very surprised at the poor play by Tranquill.

 

[dang227]

BVG had great defensive stats at Auburn. He also had some very good athletes.

I am very surprised at the poor play by Tranquill.

No he didn't. Sounds like his time at ND

http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.ssf/2012/11/what_went_wrong_auburn_defense.html


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[BabyIrish]

What's our safety recruiting look like this year? Have the staff been addressing the lack of depth here?

 

[IrishinSyria]

BVG had great defensive stats at Auburn. He also had some very good athletes.
I am very surprised at the poor play by Tranquill.

I don't get how anyone could be surprised by this (and you're not the only one). At best, Tranquil was useful as a safety/LB hybrid against option teams. As a pure safety, he's never been good and I don't understand why people thought that would change with him coming off a knee injury.

 

[Circa]

This. This is the single biggest factor. I defer to experts about scheme, and maybe even about talent. But the single biggest, recurring issue last night was hitting ball carriers flush, and having them go another two or three yards (minimum) or breaking free altogether. (Anybody know how many tackles for a loss ND had? And how many outside of the 19 minutes from 10:00 of the third quarter to 6:00 of the fourth?) I'm no Tom Landry, but that strikes me less a "talent" or "scheme" issue, than an issue of technique and physical strength and, possibly, conditioning. Let me hand pick two or three plays last night (maybe fewer) where the tackle "stuck" and it's a different game; and I'm not cherry picking: it was a recurring, chronic problem.

Yea.. and for the last 2 years we only had Schmidt... He was so bad that we became an average D..

 

[ndcoltsfan2010]

We have the talent!! It's really about coaching to their skill sets and abilities. We are just not getting it done defensively. So many schools would love to have the talent we have. I personally don't buy the we lack talent excuse. We should be a top 15-20 Defense, yet we struggle mightily. Sorry fellas, but it's coaching/schemes, not talent. We need to adjust to our strengths and our players.

 

[5thHorseman]

Sorry, I'm not sold on the lack of talent pitch, doesn't mean we have the right players for defense BVG wants to run. A good DC is going to work on fundamentals, BVG threw fundamentals out the window. He is gonna assess his personnel and mold a defense that fits scheme and player ability. Classes of 3* and 4* recruits is alot better than what other teams have to work with however perhaps those schools DC actually have the sense to take in what talent they have to work with and defensively look sound. ND does not look sound defensively in the slightest. Everyone else pointed out the flaws, CB getting beat, breakdowns in fundamentals the list can go on. Here's my one piece though, Texas had a surprisingly mature, well rounded True freshman QB and a 250lb Bruiser of a QB that Strong used perfectly to win that game. Skys not falling.... yet.

 

[ndcoltsfan2010]

Sorry, I'm not sold on the lack of talent pitch, doesn't mean we have the right players for defense BVG wants to run. A good DC is going to work on fundamentals, BVG threw fundamentals out the window. He is gonna assess his personnel and mold a defense that fits scheme and player ability. Classes of 3* and 4* recruits is alot better than what other teams have to work with however perhaps those schools DC actually have the sense to take in what talent they have to work with and defensively look sound. ND does not look sound defensively in the slightest. Everyone else pointed out the flaws, CB getting beat, breakdowns in fundamentals the list can go on. Here's my one piece though, Texas had a surprisingly mature, well rounded True freshman QB and a 250lb Bruiser of a QB that Strong used perfectly to win that game. Skys not falling.... yet.

I could not agree more! Well said! I really feel the same way. It's not a talent issue here, it's more of a coaching and scheme issue. I just think we should coach and play to our strengths.

 

[BobbyMac]

Of course it's not talent. The Irish started ten 4 stars against Texas. Only Martini was a 3 star Comp... by a whisker because Rivals threw him under the bus.

in '15, BC was #1 in total team defense. Wisconsin was #2. Mizzou was #6. ND EASILY has more talent than those three.

It's scheme and player development.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Of course it's not talent. The Irish started ten 4 stars against Texas. Only Martini was a 3 star Comp... by a whisker because Rivals threw him under the bus.

in '15, BC was #1 in total team defense. Wisconsin was #2. Mizzou was #6. ND EASILY has more talent than those three.

It's scheme and player development.

Honestly this has been the problem with the whole BK era. Yes ND puts people in the pros but he is a 5 star, odds are he is going pro whether he goes to ND or Purdue.

Im becoming less and less confident in BK. To make the statement that you have to outscore your opponent like it is an offensive race only was very irresponsible. You cant put it all on the offense when they are scoring points. When a defense gives up 50 points, they suck....period. The fact that he is constantly defending BVG instead of holding him accountable is not fair to the team, the fans nor the university. I dont know what BVG has on BK, maybe he is letting BK rock his wife I dont know but this makes no sense. You can take any top 15 team week 1 and the defense performed significantly better than NDs did with less talent.

The excuses have to stop. Any DC recruiting against ND just had major mud to sling. Clearly ND's DC cant develop. Why would you want to go there?

 

[CIrishWin]

Michigan St 2014 Defense (8 National)
S. Calhoun 3
J. Heath 3
D. Knox 3
M. Rush 3
D. Harris 3 (safety)
T. Jones 3
E. Davis 3
D. Hicks 3
K. Drummond 3
RJ. Williamson 3 (wide receiver)
T. Waynes 3
Notre Dame 2016 Defense ( ???)
DE I. Rochell 4
NT J. Jones 4 (OT)
DT J. Tillery 4 (OT)
DE A. Trumbetti 4
LB J Onwualu 4 (WR)
LB N. Morgan 4
LB G. Martini
CB C. Luke 4
CB S. Crawford 4

S D. Tranquill 4
S A. Sebastian 4

It is coaching and development of the players. There is plenty of talent if you believe the 247sports star rankings.
Other players that have stared at Michigan State: R. Bullough 3. D Cooper 3 D. Dennard 3

 

[IrishLax]

Michigan St 2014 Defense (8 National)
S. Calhoun 3
J. Heath 3
D. Knox 3
M. Rush 3
D. Harris 3 (safety)
T. Jones 3
E. Davis 3
D. Hicks 3
K. Drummond 3
RJ. Williamson 3 (wide receiver)
T. Waynes 3
Notre Dame 2016 Defense ( ???)
DE I. Rochell 4
NT J. Jones 4 (OT)
DT J. Tillery 4 (OT)
DE A. Trumbetti 4
LB J Onwualu 4 (WR)
LB N. Morgan 4
LB G. Martini
CB C. Luke 4
CB S. Crawford 4

S D. Tranquill 4
S A. Sebastian 4

It is coaching and development of the players. There is plenty of talent if you believe the 247sports star rankings.
Other players that have stared at Michigan State: R. Bullough 3. D Cooper 3 D. Dennard 3

This is why you have a red bar. Your post has nothing to do with the premise of this thread. It does not matter what your "starter" is ranked coming out of HS. For an example, a team with 11 true freshman 5 stars starting would look by your estimation to have more "talent" than Alabama. And that's obviously really stupid. If those 11 true frosh 5 stars are the only players on the roster then the defense is in dire straights if any are a bust or get injured...

What we're talking about is depth and developed players. Because of massive misses in safety recruiting, there are no experienced players on the entire roster except for the two you listed, who have both been debilitated by injuries. To use MSU, the team you contrasted against, they have 6+ scholarship players at safety with at least a year of development compares to Notre Dame's 2.

 

[ScooterIrish]

BVG had great defensive stats at Auburn. He also had some very good athletes.
I am very surprised at the poor play by Tranquill.

Holy cow, what? His defense at Auburn was not good, as another poster noted. Same exact issues we have here.

You may be thinking of his defenses at UGA, 20 years ago...

 

[ScooterIrish]

This is why you have a red bar. Your post has nothing to do with the premise of this thread. It does not matter what your "starter" is ranked coming out of HS. For an example, a team with 11 true freshman 5 stars starting would look by your estimation to have more "talent" than Alabama. And that's obviously really stupid. If those 11 true frosh 5 stars are the only players on the roster then the defense is in dire straights if any are a bust or get injured...

What we're talking about is depth and developed players. Because of massive misses in safety recruiting, there are no experienced players on the entire roster except for the two you listed, who have both been debilitated by injuries. To use MSU, the team you contrasted against, they have 6+ scholarship players at safety with at least a year of development compares to Notre Dame's 2.

OF course depth is a problem and that's on Kelly and BVG. But the scheme is making the defense awful.

 

[CIrishWin]

This is why you have a red bar. Your post has nothing to do with the premise of this thread. It does not matter what your "starter" is ranked coming out of HS. For an example, a team with 11 true freshman 5 stars starting would look by your estimation to have more "talent" than Alabama. And that's obviously really stupid. If those 11 true frosh 5 stars are the only players on the roster then the defense is in dire straights if any are a bust or get injured...

What we're talking about is depth and developed players. Because of massive misses in safety recruiting, there are no experienced players on the entire roster except for the two you listed, who have both been debilitated by injuries. To use MSU, the team you contrasted against, they have 6+ scholarship players at safety with at least a year of development compares to Notre Dame's 2.

it has everything to do if no coach can help this defense michigan state had a great defense with less talent because they know how to develop players and have a better scheme and it is not like they missed on players as well if so worried about depth why give fertitta a scholarship when he will never be able to produce more than on special teams

 

[IrishLax]

We have the talent!! It's really about coaching to their skill sets and abilities. We are just not getting it done defensively. So many schools would love to have the talent we have. I personally don't buy the we lack talent excuse. We should be a top 15-20 Defense, yet we struggle mightily. Sorry fellas, but it's coaching/schemes, not talent. We need to adjust to our strengths and our players.

Experienced players with talent at safety: zero.
Experienced players with talent at CB: 1. Luke. Unless you count Watkins (injured) or Crawford (missed a year, so not experienced).
Experienced players with talent at LB: 3+. Every one of those guys is a veteran, none of them suck. Coney also doesn't suck by all accounts.
Experienced players with talent at DL: 4+. Every one of those guys is a veteran, none of them suck except WDE continues to be a bit questionable with Hayes injured.

The whole "we have talent" argument is hand waving at the actual problem. The problem isn't that ND lacks "talent" it's that at some positions we have crippling holes in how we recruited. And when you have a hole in your defense, opponents attack it. Playing good defense is as much about having adequate players at every position who can execute their responsibilities as it is about having "stars."

So when ND is stuck playing a 3-3-5 to protect their back end AND the safeties can't cover because they're slow AND the safeties aren't effective in run support AND Texas has a game plan to throw at Coleman... it's that hole that undermines the rest of the defense. And because you compensate for that and play with only 6 in the box, you get run on to death no matter how good Rochelle, Tillery, Morgan, Cage, etc. play.

 

[CIrishWin]

Experienced players with talent at safety: zero.
Experienced players with talent at CB: 1. Luke. Unless you count Watkins (injured) or Crawford (missed a year, so not experienced).
Experienced players with talent at LB: 3+. Every one of those guys is a veteran, none of them suck. Coney also doesn't suck by all accounts.
Experienced players with talent at DL: 4+. Every one of those guys is a veteran, none of them suck except WDE continues to be a bit questionable with Hayes injured.

The whole "we have talent" argument is hand waving at the actual problem. The problem isn't that ND lacks "talent" it's that at some positions we have crippling holes in how we recruited. And when you have a hole in your defense, opponents attack it. Playing good defense is as much about having adequate players at every position who can execute their responsibilities as it is about having "stars."

So when ND is stuck playing a 3-3-5 to protect their back end AND the safeties can't cover because they're slow AND the safeties aren't effective in run support AND Texas has a game plan to throw at Coleman... it's that hole that undermines the rest of the defense. And because you compensate for that and play with only 6 in the box, you get run on to death no matter how good Rochelle, Tillery, Morgan, Cage, etc. play.

Do you believe Diaco could get more out of this defense

 

[Wingman Ray]

it has everything to do if no coach can help this defense michigan state had a great defense with less talent because they know how to develop players and have a better scheme and it is not like they missed on players as well if so worried about depth why give fertitta a scholarship when he will never be able to produce more than on special teams

This 100%

I just dont get it. ND has the money. Go get a good DC! How hard is that? I get it year one BVG fizzles. Year two ok. Year three is a no brainer. WTH is the problem here getting a decent DC?

 

[Wingman Ray]

Experienced players with talent at safety: zero.
Experienced players with talent at CB: 1. Luke. Unless you count Watkins (injured) or Crawford (missed a year, so not experienced).
Experienced players with talent at LB: 3+. Every one of those guys is a veteran, none of them suck. Coney also doesn't suck by all accounts.
Experienced players with talent at DL: 4+. Every one of those guys is a veteran, none of them suck except WDE continues to be a bit questionable with Hayes injured.

The whole "we have talent" argument is hand waving at the actual problem. The problem isn't that ND lacks "talent" it's that at some positions we have crippling holes in how we recruited. And when you have a hole in your defense, opponents attack it. Playing good defense is as much about having adequate players at every position who can execute their responsibilities as it is about having "stars."

So when ND is stuck playing a 3-3-5 to protect their back end AND the safeties can't cover because they're slow AND the safeties aren't effective in run support AND Texas has a game plan to throw at Coleman... it's that hole that undermines the rest of the defense. And because you compensate for that and play with only 6 in the box, you get run on to death no matter how good Rochelle, Tillery, Morgan, Cage, etc. play.

If ND doesnt have talent with experience, that is on ND. You recruit every year so you dont have complete dry wells with true freshmen starting. No excuses for having zero experienced starters at a school like ND.

If you think every single team wont line up and throw at our inexperienced DBs, you are kidding yourself. ND is going to make a lot of teams QBs look like Heisman trophy candidates this year.

 

[IrishLax]

it has everything to do if no coach can help this defense michigan state had a great defense with less talent because they know how to develop players and have a better scheme and it is not like they missed on players as well if so worried about depth why give fertitta a scholarship when he will never be able to produce more than on special teams

Fertitta was recruited strictly to be a special teams player. He doesn't even factor into the discussion, he didn't take a scholarship from anyone.

Do you believe Diaco could get more out of this defense

You're really bad at reading. I've said for awhile in many places (including in this thread and before the season) that the scheme is a problem, and made suggestions about what we maybe should do to mask holes we've got. The point of this thread was to talk about how there is no scheme that could've saved us on Saturday because the talent/play on the back end was so bad it could not be saved.

I never said another DC couldn't do better, I think they could on the whole. I said no coach or scheme can FIX the problem we have right now. There is no coach that is going to come in a wave a magic wand and make our depth/talent issues in the secondary magically disappear. That is an impossibility, and the only solution is time/recruiting.

The reason we got blown out by Texas wasn't "BVG's scheme." He didn't run his normal exotic, attacking crap. It was not typical "BVG scheme" that got us killed. All the coaches got together and obviously came to the conclusion that we had to run a super simple 3-3-5. So he ran a super simple, almost no blitz 3-3-5... it was that the safeties and corners couldn't execute it.

If we ran a standard 4-3 to stop the run (and using 4 down lineman really did work well), then they probably wouldn't have ran and would've just thrown deep on every play against whoever the safety/Coleman/linebacker were matched up on. If we aggressively blitzed... well, no one thinks that's a good idea against up tempo.

If you want to tell me "everything is fine" with Tranquil/Sebastian because they were low 4-star players coming out of HS or some other nonsense I'm frankly not going to listen because that's just really stupid. And that's the only point you've even tried to make that's even relevant to what this discussion is supposed to be about, which is a lack of talent/depth at certain spots thanks to crap recruiting. There are like 10 other threads to quibble about scheme.

 

[IrishLax]

If ND doesnt have talent with experience, that is on ND. You recruit every year so you dont have complete dry wells with true freshmen starting. No excuses for having zero experienced starters at a school like ND.

If you think every single team wont line up and throw at our inexperienced DBs, you are kidding yourself. ND is going to make a lot of teams QBs look like Heisman trophy candidates this year.

That's pretty much the entire point of why I made this thread boiled down to one sentence. It's completely inexcusable that safety recruiting was virtually non-existent for multiple classes until this most recent one we signed with a bunch of bodies that can hypothetically play back there.

 

[NDgradstudent]

safety recruiting was virtually non-existent for multiple classes

Was there a reason for that? It's not a rhetorical question, I don't know.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Was there a reason for that? It's not a rhetorical question, I don't know.

See: Cooks, Kerry and Diaco, Bobby.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[Domina Nostra]

Was there a reason for that? It's not a rhetorical question, I don't know.

My 2 cents:

Some of it was getting burned by injuries, transfers, and kids not panning out.

Some of it was going for big fish, whiffing, getting in too late with the 2nd tier kids, and ending up with the 3rd tier kid.

But I still maintain a lot of it is simply refusing to recruit something like an entire 22 person line-up each year. This staff has a nasty habitat of declaring ourselves full at a certain position, then taking the foot off the pedal, and creating gaps. This is especially egregious when you do it with a position that has bodies but not elite talent. You saw it last year when we refused to recruit DT despite not having good young DTs. Why? Because we overstocked the year before, in reaction to under-recruiting previous years. Its a vicious cycle.

Unless the 5th year situation dictates otherwise (usually limited to OL), you should try to have at least: 1 QB, 1-2 RB, 1-2 TEs, 2-3 WRS, and 2-3 OG/C, and 2 OTs, in every recruiting class, and 2 DT/NTs, 1 SDE, 1 WDE, 2 OLBs, 1 MLB, 2 CBs, 1 SS, and 1 FS in EVERY CLASS!