Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[IrishSteelhead]

Of the players that BK has recruited at ND (including the last part of the 2010 class), he has only had 1 QB and 4 WR that we’re drafted. CAL, who has had 7 losing seasons since BK has been the coach, has had 2 QB’s drafted and 4 WR drafted from the 2010-2017 recruiting classes. That isn’t good company to be in. Evaluation is a big part of the problem. I remember when BK chose Torii Hunter Jr. over Tyler Boyd, for example. We were the favorite for Boyd, but BK accepted Hunter’s commitment before Boyd’s announced and chose not to pursue him any longer.

I can live with that choice, even though it didnt work out better than it would have with Boyd.

THJ was a brand name, and you need to pull some of those guys like him and Admiral Jr to show you still got a big wang in recruiting circles.


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[Irishize]

On our major bowl trophy record and "match-ups."

Maybe it's been mentioned. Notre Dame is a publicity draw like almost no one else. Bowls get to choose who they are going to invite to some degree. After getting some power team slotted in, they look for a "paying/TV draw" opponent. There sits a good Notre Dame team, albeit less ranked. No matter, this will translate into bucks. Invite out. We accept to play a superior opponent.

This is not a mystery.

This was especially true in the BCS era. I do think the conference bowl tie-ins have limited that a bit but you’re right, if the bowl/network has the option, they’d take ND in a heartbeat b/c it sells tickets & increases viewership.

 

[Irishize]

Its a lot easier for a good quarterback to make bad receivers look good, than good receivers making a bad quarterback look good.

Its a moot point, though. No premier QB is going to choose a school that has a bare cupboard at WR, or a crappy offensive system in place, so you need one to have the other.

Im not saying ND has a bare cupboard or crappy offensive system, just pointing out the obvious.


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Wish that logic worked for elite RBs. Why wouldn’t an elite RB want to play behind an ND OL?

 

[GATTACA!]

I can live with that choice, even though it didnt work out better than it would have with Boyd.

THJ was a brand name, and you need to pull some of those guys like him and Admiral Jr to show you still got a big wang in recruiting circles.


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Truth is the OSU/Alabamas of the world would have just taken both and figured it out later or cut loose an upperclassmen that wasn't producing.

 

[Free Manera]

Truth is the OSU/Alabamas of the world would have just taken both and figured it out later or cut loose an upperclassmen that wasn't producing.

ND should too. I feel like you have to take guys that are at the top of your board no matter what. Attrition will happen, cross the bridge when you get to it. (ND is actually starting to do this I think).

 

[NDMatt91]

ND should too. I feel like you have to take guys that are at the top of your board no matter what. Attrition will happen, cross the bridge when you get to it. (ND is actually starting to do this I think).

We’ve been over 85 after signing day the last few years, just like OSU and Bama have been doing for the last decade or two. The roster has sorted itself out with transfers, players hanging up the cleats and not going for a 5th year, etc.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

There’s not a coach in the country that’s gonna come in and do any better than Brian Kelly. I think he is doing as good as he can with the circumstances he is dealt. Saban isn’t gonna come in here and recruit a top 5 class neither is Meyer. ND is a great school but outside of the stadium the area of South Bend is a shit hole. There isn’t much to do off campus. You can only do so much with the cards you’re dealt.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Book and seeing over the OLine ... I've really resisted wanting to believe how significant this is, but yes and yes ... sadly again yes. I see Ian beginning to move not just because of pocket tightening, but he seems to be trying to get sight lanes. The fact that we hardly ever move the pocket, and depend upon mano-a-mano blocking (which our guys are really good at) leaves Ian behind a confusing wall of dancing bears all a half foot taller than he is. Though our guys bend a little to do their jobs pass-pro, the rushers (who are getting jacked "up" in more than one way) have no obligation to do so.

Some QBs have a knack about this. This is the only thing (in my opinion) that severely restricts Ian's play that is his own problem. But our guy did huge things with this hanging on his back, and he's going, so God Bless you Captain of The Ship in what comes next. Maybe just maybe Ian's problem here was the staff not paying serious enough attention to this limitation. Coach believes very strongly in simplicity of "design" and precise attention to those design details. Maybe he was too stubborn to insist upon moving pockets and "tricks". His whole Cincinnati offensive philosophy was "Stand and Deliver." Pike was that guy.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

There’s not a coach in the country that’s gonna come in and do any better than Brian Kelly. I think he is doing as good as he can with the circumstances he is dealt. Saban isn’t gonna come in here and recruit a top 5 class neither is Meyer. ND is a great school but outside of the stadium the area of South Bend is a shit hole. There isn’t much to do off campus. You can only do so much with the cards you’re dealt.

We’re top 10 now. I don’t disagree that Kelly is a great coach but to think that the “what if” scenario of Meyer, Dabo or Saban coming here and being able to slide our recruiting classes up 2-5 places based on just name recognition is crazy. I mean Charlie Weis had a few top 5 classes as I recall.

 

[Free Manera]

There’s not a coach in the country that’s gonna come in and do any better than Brian Kelly. I think he is doing as good as he can with the circumstances he is dealt. Saban isn’t gonna come in here and recruit a top 5 class neither is Meyer. ND is a great school but outside of the stadium the area of South Bend is a shit hole. There isn’t much to do off campus. You can only do so much with the cards you’re dealt.

I don't know where I fall on this, but I know you can't say that definitively (I mean, you just did so I guess you can, but whatever).

Luke Fickell could come in with a killer staff and recruit top 5 every year for 3 years, get a generational QB and win a title. So could Campbell. We just don't know. We do know recruiting at a high level is possible. Weis did it. He just totally neglected defense. (Was he actually seeing the future of college football back then?! nah probably not).

In order for Kelly to do that, he has to change his entire perspective on his job and his staff. He does not prioritize recruiting, according to all the guys covering ND.

Maybe he does change here in the twilight of his career to try and get a title. But he has not dedicated himself to recruiting in his tenure and that's a fact.

 

[Free Manera]

Book and seeing over the OLine ... I've really resisted wanting to believe how significant this is, but yes and yes ... sadly again yes. I see Ian beginning to move not just because of pocket tightening, but he seems to be trying to get sight lanes. The fact that we hardly ever move the pocket, and depend upon mano-a-mano blocking (which our guys are really good at) leaves Ian behind a confusing wall of dancing bears all a half foot taller than he is. Though our guys bend a little to do their jobs pass-pro, the rushers (who are getting jacked "up" in more than one way) have no obligation to do so.

Some QBs have a knack about this. This is the only thing (in my opinion) that severely restricts Ian's play that is his own problem. But our guy did huge things with this hanging on his back, and he's going, so God Bless you Captain of The Ship in what comes next. Maybe just maybe Ian's problem here was the staff not paying serious enough attention to this limitation. Coach believes very strongly in simplicity of "design" and precise attention to those design details. Maybe he was too stubborn to insist upon moving pockets and "tricks". His whole Cincinnati offensive philosophy was "Stand and Deliver." Pike was that guy.

Yep. There is a reason tall QBs are coveted by the pros. It matters. ND basically couldn't throw quick slants this year because Book couldn't see.

If you are going to be a 5'11 QB, you need to be a freak like Kyler Murray or have awesome arm talent like Drew Brees.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Book and seeing over the OLine ... I've really resisted wanting to believe how significant this is, but yes and yes ... sadly again yes. I see Ian beginning to move not just because of pocket tightening, but he seems to be trying to get sight lanes. The fact that we hardly ever move the pocket, and depend upon mano-a-mano blocking (which our guys are really good at) leaves Ian behind a confusing wall of dancing bears all a half foot taller than he is. Though our guys bend a little to do their jobs pass-pro, the rushers (who are getting jacked "up" in more than one way) have no obligation to do so.

Some QBs have a knack about this. This is the only thing (in my opinion) that severely restricts Ian's play that is his own problem. But our guy did huge things with this hanging on his back, and he's going, so God Bless you Captain of The Ship in what comes next. Maybe just maybe Ian's problem here was the staff not paying serious enough attention to this limitation. Coach believes very strongly in simplicity of "design" and precise attention to those design details. Maybe he was too stubborn to insist upon moving pockets and "tricks". His whole Cincinnati offensive philosophy was "Stand and Deliver." Pike was that guy.

I never understood why they didn't roll the pocket or run bootleg plays. Seems like it would've helped Book out a lot. You can do that and cut the field in half and give him better vision, and you can throw screens back the other way.

I dunno it just seemed like an obvious move for this offense and we never saw it. They run off tackle so well and that means they could probably put Mayer, Tremble, and any WR at three different levels and pick the open guy.

 

[Irishize]

I definitely don’t want BK gone but I do want him to move the program beyond winning the games they’re supposed to win and finally competing in games w/ national consequences.

That’s not an elite Bama defense. The ND OL played great and deserved more points. Book played hard and never quit but he didn’t play great. The underthrown balls on key plays was frustrating. And believe it or not, there were open receivers that he just never looked at. Takacs was wide open on a pass play that went to Kyren for a 1 yard gain. Skowronek & Lenzy both had a step on their defender downfield.

I don’t know if they were playing not to get blown out but it’s hard to argue otherwise when you look at the missed opportunities and lack of aggression on offense that we saw in the first Clemson game.

 

[Rogue219]

Brian Kelly already reset when he hired Long and Elko. He need to reset again and figure out what will get them to a Championship. I think it starts with recruiting. How do they get these dynamic skill guys, especially at Quarterback?

 

[NDMatt91]

There’s not a coach in the country that’s gonna come in and do any better than Brian Kelly. I think he is doing as good as he can with the circumstances he is dealt. Saban isn’t gonna come in here and recruit a top 5 class neither is Meyer. ND is a great school but outside of the stadium the area of South Bend is a shit hole. There isn’t much to do off campus. You can only do so much with the cards you’re dealt.

I disagree. Urban would absolutely get top 4-6 classes on a yearly basis. He’d fill his staff with elite recruiters and talent evaluators. Unlike BK, Urban would be able to sell a fun offense that has produced countless draft picks to HS recruits, and we’d be getting more of the elite recruits that we offer that go to OSU, Clemson, etc. The blue chip QB’s and skill positions players that we offer would be flocking to come play for Urban, or at the very least come here on an OV. He’d also be bringing pipelines in FL, OH and TX. Some of the top kids in OH that we can offer will no longer be slam-dunks to go to OSU (not saying we get most of them). Another aspect is that he is an ELITE closer on OV’s and in-home visits. As an added bonus, he’d not only be able to sell the NFL and his track record, but he’d be able to play the academics card. I’d imagine that would be very appealing to the parents (especially single moms) of recruits who are from rough areas or don’t have a long history of family members graduating college.

We would constantly have momentum in recruiting circles as opposed to seasons when we go to the Natty, like in 2012. The 2013 class was ranked 5th on 247 and 3rd on Rivals. And that’s with BK costing us Anzalone and Vanderdoes backing out. I would also anticipate him going to the administration and ask them to axe the foreign language requirement (and I think they’d do it), which has cost us good players (who had the grades) but not the foreign language.

 

[Sea Turtle]

New Kelly article:

https://www.si.com/college/notredam...lly-pushes-back-against-championship-standard

 

[Sea Turtle]

I disagree. Urban would absolutely get top 4-6 classes on a yearly basis. He’d fill his staff with elite recruiters and talent evaluators. Unlike BK, Urban would be able to sell a fun offense that has produced countless draft picks to HS recruits, and we’d be getting more of the elite recruits that we offer that go to OSU, Clemson, etc. The blue chip QB’s and skill positions players that we offer would be flocking to come play for Urban, or at the very least come here on an OV. He’d also be bringing pipelines in FL, OH and TX. Some of the top kids in OH that we can offer will no longer be slam-dunks to go to OSU (not saying we get most of them). Another aspect is that he is an ELITE closer on OV’s and in-home visits. As an added bonus, he’d not only be able to sell the NFL and his track record, but he’d be able to play the academics card. I’d imagine that would be very appealing to the parents (especially single moms) of recruits who are from rough areas or don’t have a long history of family members graduating college.

We would constantly have momentum in recruiting circles as opposed to seasons when we go to the Natty, like in 2012. The 2013 class was ranked 5th on 247 and 3rd on Rivals. And that’s with BK costing us Anzalone and Vanderdoes backing out. I would also anticipate him going to the administration and ask them to axe the foreign language requirement (and I think they’d do it), which has cost us good players (who had the grades) but not the foreign language.

This has me pumped! Let's do it!

 

[Free Manera]

The foreign language requirement is so antiquated. You can be a stud in your STEM classes but be disqualified because you didn’t take French. Who gives a shit.

 

[NDisme]

IMO we need to stop mentioning Charlie Weis and top 5 recruiting class. He had 1 top 5 class and that class was all offense, he recruited like garbage on D with the exception of Landing Te’o. 2008 class had 3 5 stars floyd, Rudolph, Crist. Offense was not the issue for Charlie.

 

[NDMatt91]

The foreign language requirement is so antiquated. You can be a stud in your STEM classes but be disqualified because you didn’t take French. Who gives a shit.

Byron Marshall, who was a very good college player at Oregon (2012-2015), had the grades and a Stanford offer but we couldn’t take him because of the stupid foreign language requirement. He is just one example.

 

[rtrn2glory]

New Kelly article:

https://www.si.com/college/notredam...lly-pushes-back-against-championship-standard

Ouch... Not saying any of that is wrong either

 

[NDFAN420]

I disagree. Urban would absolutely get top 4-6 classes on a yearly basis. He’d fill his staff with elite recruiters and talent evaluators. Unlike BK, Urban would be able to sell a fun offense that has produced countless draft picks to HS recruits, and we’d be getting more of the elite recruits that we offer that go to OSU, Clemson, etc. The blue chip QB’s and skill positions players that we offer would be flocking to come play for Urban, or at the very least come here on an OV. He’d also be bringing pipelines in FL, OH and TX. Some of the top kids in OH that we can offer will no longer be slam-dunks to go to OSU (not saying we get most of them). Another aspect is that he is an ELITE closer on OV’s and in-home visits. As an added bonus, he’d not only be able to sell the NFL and his track record, but he’d be able to play the academics card. I’d imagine that would be very appealing to the parents (especially single moms) of recruits who are from rough areas or don’t have a long history of family members graduating college.

We would constantly have momentum in recruiting circles as opposed to seasons when we go to the Natty, like in 2012. The 2013 class was ranked 5th on 247 and 3rd on Rivals. And that’s with BK costing us Anzalone and Vanderdoes backing out. I would also anticipate him going to the administration and ask them to axe the foreign language requirement (and I think they’d do it), which has cost us good players (who had the grades) but not the foreign language.

This makes the assumption that ND would pay for UM's recruiters and evaluators. They would not. UM would require multiple coaches earning over $1million/yr, plus recruits that Kelly cannot get through admissions. This is not happening.

I was a never Kelly or a Kelly birther, whatever you want, but I now believe that he must leverage his clout at ND to pay the coaches and get the recruits. He might win one. As the Spartans say laconically, "If".

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Byron Marshall, who was a very good college player at Oregon (2012-2015), had the grades and a Stanford offer but we couldn’t take him because of the stupid foreign language requirement. He is just one example.

Is this true? Jeeeeeez you got to be kidding me.


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[Free Manera]

This makes the assumption that ND would pay for UM's recruiters and evaluators. They would not. UM would require multiple coaches earning over $1million/yr, plus recruits that Kelly cannot get through admissions. This is not happening.

I was a never Kelly or a Kelly birther, whatever you want, but I now believe that he must leverage his clout at ND to pay the coaches and get the recruits. He might win one. As the Spartans say laconically, "If".

To me it’s not about higher pay for on the field coaches. It’s about hiring like 10-12 more recruiting staff. It would have a huge impact. And sacrifices nothing besides a few bucks. If ND can’t spend another 1.5 to greatly increase their chances of success (without sacrificing their values) what are we even doing here.

There are really good players interested in ND. But it’s hard to find them when you are working with a skeleton crew all the time.

 

[Rogue219]

This makes the assumption that ND would pay for UM's recruiters and evaluators. They would not. UM would require multiple coaches earning over $1million/yr, plus recruits that Kelly cannot get through admissions. This is not happening.

Bingo. Saban, Meyer and Swinney have dozens of these kinds of people on their staffs. They are former college coaches, HS coaches and they get paid to do recruiting evaluation all day long.

ND has a fraction of the staff these guys have.

Meyer had his chance to come to ND in 2005 and he chose Florida because he knew the path to winning their was going to be much easier. It was the right choice.

This administration and Brian Kelly seem to be happy with the way things are. As supporters, we want to see what we have not since January 1989. Just when I think Brian Kelly has turned a corner, he comes back around to showing that he is still the rigid guy he was when he was doing dumb things against Tulsa. I wish I could say I was impressed with his post game press conference the other day, but for him to act that way is pretty arrogant considering he doesn't have the equity to crap on the media when he hasn't won a title.

I thought Pete Sampson asked a great question in terms of "what do you need to do from here?" as it relates to winning a championship. Kelly got pissy about it and thinks everything is fine. "We'll be back here again".

He was saying that same shit in 2016 when they went 4-8.

I question whether he can get it done when he acts this way.

 

[NDMatt91]

This makes the assumption that ND would pay for UM's recruiters and evaluators. They would not. UM would require multiple coaches earning over $1million/yr, plus recruits that Kelly cannot get through admissions. This is not happening.

I was a never Kelly or a Kelly birther, whatever you want, but I now believe that he must leverage his clout at ND to pay the coaches and get the recruits. He might win one. As the Spartans say, "If".

I’ve posted before that from 2013-2020 there were 213 5* and 4* recruits who did not have a ND offer but were offered by Stanford, NW, or an Ivy League school. From 2013-2020 OSU only offered 18 more of these 5*/4* prospects than we did. Heck, the majority of the studs OSU has landed under Meyer and Day were good enough academically to get into ND. There are also players Meyer offered who, depending on their foreign language credits, likely would’ve been able to get into ND: JT Barrett (3.9 GPA >1400 SAT), Joe Burrow (3.8 GPA), Mitch Trubisky (3.6 GPA, NW offer). The player pool is there for us to realistically contend for a national title. The issue is that we don’t have a HC whose body of work is very attractive to a lot of blue chip recruits (that we can offer) AND isn’t viewed as a great recruiter (and in some instances, a lazy recruiter). Kelly has even acknowledged that he can be more available to recruits.

The only requirement I can see Admissions caving on is the stupid foreign language requirement. There are players out there with offers from Stanford with 4.0 GPA who might not be able to be admitted because they might lack the required foreign language credits. I have no doubt that Meyer would be able to persuade them to axe that requirement and keep everything else as is.

Kelly absolutely needs to allocate more resources to recruiting. I doubt we seriously contend for a title with him as HC, but allocating more resources to recruiting is our only chance at maximizing our run for the next 4 years of BK. Personally, I think it was stupid to extend him for 3 more years when he already was under contract for 2021, as that takes us out of the running for any hot young coaches or prominent coaches who may have temporarily retired, until at least 2025.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Bingo. Saban, Meyer and Swinney have dozens of these kinds of people on their staffs. They are former college coaches, HS coaches and they get paid to do recruiting evaluation all day long.

ND has a fraction of the staff these guys have.

Meyer had his chance to come to ND in 2005 and he chose Florida because he knew the path to winning their was going to be much easier. It was the right choice.

This administration and Brian Kelly seem to be happy with the way things are. As supporters, we want to see what we have not since January 1989. Just when I think Brian Kelly has turned a corner, he comes back around to showing that he is still the rigid guy he was when he was doing dumb things against Tulsa. I wish I could say I was impressed with his post game press conference the other day, but for him to act that way is pretty arrogant considering he doesn't have the equity to crap on the media when he hasn't won a title.

I thought Pete Sampson asked a great question in terms of "what do you need to do from here?" as it relates to winning a championship. Kelly got pissy about it and thinks everything is fine. "We'll be back here again".

He was saying that same shit in 2016 when they went 4-8.

I question whether he can get it done when he acts this way.

I get what you’re saying. I think the missing pieces are more of a Kelly problem than an ND problem. As the poster above me mentioned, his analysis of 4/5 star recruits offered by both ND and OSU has a lot of overlap.

Just out of curiosity, why won’t ND hire more recruiting analysts or coordinators or whatever? Are they cheap? I also don’t think the school is absolutely content where they are. I think Kelly is slowly convincing the right people like the facilities upgrades and stadium upgrades shows. I think they’re much more committed to football in 2021 than they were in 2010

 

[NDMatt91]

Is this true? Jeeeeeez you got to be kidding me.


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According to knowledgeable posters in his thread from the 2012 class, yes. He seemed to be all ND. Hell of a player, and would’ve been another Theo Riddick type. Had one year with over 1,000 rushing yards and another with over 1,000 receiving yards. Another great weapon to compliment Fuller and Prosise. Maybe we would’ve beat Clemson and Stanford and endEd up in the 4-team playoff.
Side note, I‘d LOVE to see what that 2015 team would’ve looked like at full strength. It was criminal the amount of injuries to key players we had that year, and yet we were a Chris Brown fumble inside the 10 yard line and a breakdown in the secondary away from being undefeated.

 

[Rogue219]

I get what you’re saying. I think the missing pieces are more of a Kelly problem than an ND problem. As the poster above me mentioned, his analysis of 4/5 star recruits offered by both ND and OSU has a lot of overlap.

Just out of curiosity, why won’t ND hire more recruiting analysts or coordinators or whatever? Are they cheap? I also don’t think the school is absolutely content where they are. I think Kelly is slowly convincing the right people like the facilities upgrades and stadium upgrades shows. I think they’re much more committed to football in 2021 than they were in 2010

It is a Kelly problem. Getting blown out in a major bowl by Oregon State twenty years ago has shit to do with him or any of these kids. Having seen what BK did with LeFevour at CMU, with Pike and Collaros at UC; I thought he'd use the ND brand to bring in QB talent and show us that strength. That "Quarterback Whisperer" reputation hasn't manifested itself at Notre Dame. Everett Golson was a tremendous HS QB. Zaire, Kizer, Hendrix were talents. The guy that really disappointed me was Wimbush. How they got nothing out of him is beyond me.

I heard Alabama employs close to thirty of these recruiting evaluators. I don't know if that is true, but suppose you pay them $40K a year. Even for college town living, that's not much to live on and if you're paying 30 of these people that adds up. I Honestly have no idea what they make, but if Alabama has close to that many, I don't know why ND would only have a fraction of that.

 

[NDMatt91]

I get what you’re saying. I think the missing pieces are more of a Kelly problem than an ND problem. As the poster above me mentioned, his analysis of 4/5 star recruits offered by both ND and OSU has a lot of overlap.

Just out of curiosity, why won’t ND hire more recruiting analysts or coordinators or whatever? Are they cheap? I also don’t think the school is absolutely content where they are. I think Kelly is slowly convincing the right people like the facilities upgrades and stadium upgrades shows. I think they’re much more committed to football in 2021 than they were in 2010

NFL Draft Picks OSU (recruited by Meyer) had that were offered by ND
2012: Taylor Decker, Noah Spence
2013: Joey Bosa, Ezekiel Elliott, Vonn Bell, Eli Apple, Billy Price
2014: Raekwon McMillan, Curtis Samuel, Jamarco Jones, Sam Hubbard, Jalyn Holmes, Noah Brown
2015: Jerome Baker, Mike Weber, Jashon Cornell, Dre’Mont Jones
2016: Nick Bosa, Dwayne Haskins, Binjimen Victor, Michael Jordan, Jordan Fuller
2017: Chase Young, Jeff Okudah, JK Dobbins, Kendall Sheffield (JUCO transfer from Bama, but we offered out of HS)

There will also be at least 5 or 6 from the 2017 class and at least 5 or 6 from the 2018 class that will be drafted this year or next year. Decker was committed to ND and flipped after Urban hired away one of our coaches, Elliott wanted to come to ND as a RB but Kelly wanted him on Defense, and Curtis Samuel wanted to come to ND but Diaco never gave him the time of the day.