Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[johnnycando]

One starting point to give us a far wider pool to recruit into would be to drop the second language requirement. That "skill" wasn't even required pragmatically for my PhD studies let alone for undergraduate success in life. There are probably hundreds of good athletes per year who don't get in the HS classrooms for a second language or can't/won't pass with a decent grade.

I wouldn't be surprised if this alone shrinks the recruiting pool (especially for athletes from low income school districts or even high-obsession football districts) by very large percentages. And no one wants to say this, but a lot of the speed/power recruits everywhere around the country's power football programs come from these exact "school" districts. ... and, yes, there's a racial statistic to this.

ND succeeded despite the higher standards in the old days because so many pipelines existed to feed elite players to our program. Football got bigger wealthier and more of a midnight business chasing elite jocks whether they could read or not. I recall the moment that hit for me: Bear Bryant recruits a big talent back named Wilver something-or-other, and was beginning to break the Alabama "no coloreds" policy --- even Alabama fans didn't initially agree with their beloved Bear Icon on that. But the back ran wild and they decided that it was a good thing after all.

Bryant made the mistake of allowing the media to interview this fellow after a game. He could barely make sentences. His main statement was (and this is spelled to indicate the sound of the words used): "Coat Brynt say --- I get ball, I gone." Bryant cut that interview short, mercifully.

That type of non-educated athlete can run by you or through you but he can't come within light years of getting into Notre Dame. He still CAN get into a LOT of power schools though. He can be recruited --- Coach Kelly can't even bother. Look at the top recruits in the nation every year when it's still early in recruiting. Lots of them don't even have a Notre Dame offer --- we can't even try. Even a really good guy like the current USC RB (Stepp) can get into USC but not here.

The Old Days: ND was such a fantasy in football that parents had ND and almost nothing but ND in mind as their rare athletic+intelligent kid went to high school, that the steps towards ND were almost a given if the kid was mentally and athletically good enough.

Well composed OMM.

God bless you sir and thank you.

 

[ulukinatme]

You know, the Michigan/Ohio State game got me thinking. Buckeye players have said they're already getting prepared for Michigan next year. The circle that date on the calendar and every day they're thinking about what they can do to get better for that game. Michigan, on the other hand, approaches the game the same way we do: very business-like and "onto the next week." At least that's the way the post-game quotes came across. I think the outcome the last few years has shown, Ohio State has completely humiliated Michigan. They take that rivalry personally. Sometimes I think you need that kind of attitude and mentality when it comes to rivalry games. I think if we would have had that mindset towards Michigan it could have been a very different game. Ohio State is good, but they're not 30 points better than SCUM. The players cited the extra emotions and motivation for their success.

 

[pumpdog20]

You know, the Michigan/Ohio State game got me thinking. Buckeye players have said they're already getting prepared for Michigan next year. The circle that date on the calendar and every day they're thinking about what they can do to get better for that game. Michigan, on the other hand, approaches the game the same way we do: very business-like and "onto the next week." At least that's the way the post-game quotes came across. I think the outcome the last few years has shown, Ohio State has completely humiliated Michigan. They take that rivalry personally. Sometimes I think you need that kind of attitude and mentality when it comes to rivalry games. I think if we would have had that mindset towards Michigan it could have been a very different game. Ohio State is good, but they're not 30 points better than SCUM. The players cited the extra emotions and motivation for their success.

A good analysis. I saw a tweet about the topic yesterday from a Michigan writer. Basically OSU only has one hated rival on their schedule every year. Michigan has at least two every year, and had three this year (and last year). They can't have that type of focus for one opponent like OSU can.

 

[Irish#1]

You know, the Michigan/Ohio State game got me thinking. Buckeye players have said they're already getting prepared for Michigan next year. The circle that date on the calendar and every day they're thinking about what they can do to get better for that game. Michigan, on the other hand, approaches the game the same way we do: very business-like and "onto the next week." At least that's the way the post-game quotes came across. I think the outcome the last few years has shown, Ohio State has completely humiliated Michigan. They take that rivalry personally. Sometimes I think you need that kind of attitude and mentality when it comes to rivalry games. I think if we would have had that mindset towards Michigan it could have been a very different game. Ohio State is good, but they're not 30 points better than SCUM. The players cited the extra emotions and motivation for their success.

Perhaps they say that to downplay the humiliation by saying it not as important to them as it is to OSU? Seems like a tactic Harbaugh would use.

 

[koonja]

Needed changes:

1) The business-like attitude towards games. It's a freaking game, be emotional, play with passion. It's not golf.

2) more high level, but in coaching searches ND needs to realize again, it's a GAME. We don't need Jesus Christ himself to coach a sport at ND. Any future coaching considerations should remove the unnecessary "holy art thou" requirement. We're hiring a coach, not a President of the University.

3) MLB has to be better. Drew White either needs a Bilal-like improvement (not likely), or he needs to be replaced. I think he should be replaced, he's the Tony Jones of the defense.

4) Offensive play calling needs to be reengineered or completely madeover.

5) RB needs to change. The only hope is Tyree EE's (does he?) and he becomes the guy. Our 3 star RBs are 3 star RBs. They won't kill us but they're holding this offense back.

Do at least 3 of these things and we can make playoffs. Do 4 and we can win them, IMO.

 

[NDRock]

Some good answers and I appreciate the time you guys took to enlighten me and share your views. stlnd01's answer was especially good and brought up a couple of reasons I hadn't thought about.

I also don’t think ND really wants to do what it takes to be elite. I think they like the current level of success under Kelly. I truly think that if ND wanted to compete for championships that they could and I don’t mean paying players. Going full on with facilities, coaches salaries, scheduling, making minor admission adjustments, etc... would add up to better recruiting and better results. I just don’t feel they think it’s worth it. Instead they go about 90% of the way and fall short of elite status. It is what it is.

 

[irishandy]

Like Luckylucci said above, we ended the season 10-2, to add to that this is the first time in program history since the 1991-93 season's we won 10 games in 3 straight season's.

For all of you who think we need 5*'s to win a NC I think you are wrong.

That is the difference between BK and Weis. Weis always went for the 5* and some he got, others he didn't; at that time those 5* had poor coaching and look how the team did. I like BK's theory that they have to be the right kind of kid athletically and academically for ND. As it has been said a million of times on this board: ND IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.

Am I saying that ND shouldn't go after a 5*? No. Look at Tyree- ND needs him. Johnson for next year- ND has landed 5* WR before. I used to feel that ND should go after every 5*...not anymore.

I do like where ND is headed with the 2020 and 2021 classes. I think the coaches are doing a great job at recruiting and I am already ready for next year.

Let's be happy that ND ended the season with a win!

 

[NDRock]

Like Luckylucci said above, we ended the season 10-2, to add to that this is the first time in program history since the 1991-93 season's we won 10 games in 3 straight season's.

For all of you who think we need 5*'s to win a NC I think you are wrong.

That is the difference between BK and Weis. Weis always went for the 5* and some he got, others he didn't; at that time those 5* had poor coaching and look how the team did. I like BK's theory that they have to be the right kind of kid athletically and academically for ND. As it has been said a million of times on this board: ND IS NOT FOR EVERYONE.

Am I saying that ND shouldn't go after a 5*? No. Look at Tyree- ND needs him. Johnson for next year- ND has landed 5* WR before. I used to feel that ND should go after every 5*...not anymore.

I do like where ND is headed with the 2020 and 2021 classes. I think the coaches are doing a great job at recruiting and I am already ready for next year.

Let's be happy that ND ended the season with a win!

Please point out the past NC winners who did not have 5* players. Won’t take long.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Thanks, Johnny.

When I was at ND in the late 50s/early 60s, Bronko Nagurski and Stan Musial sent their sons to ND to play football. A couple of years later Leon Hart sent his son here. The point is not that these three were particularly good at ND, but that ND was the Kingdom of Honor in college football back then, and almost anyone at least thought of coming here.

These were also the days of simple power football and demanded a certain kind of tough grind-it-out player. Defenses were all aimed at the run. The popular defensive base was the "wide-tackle-six" with 6 down D linemen, one in each gap, and two linebackers. There were almost never more than THREE defensive backs --- i.e. ONE safety.

Muscle teams like Notre Dame could reduce the wide tackle six to a five man front with what was then called a nose guard (usually a real rough neck brawler --- on Buoniconti's team [my team's years] that was a weight-lifting wild boar named Norb Roy.). We could play "just" five D linemen and three linebackers --- thus initiating the importance of the Middle backer, where your superstar (Nick) played.

Smaller teams, still employing personnel like so-called "watch-charm guards" (Olinemen weighing like 180 pounds) could not last throughout seasons or even second halves.

USC started the change to the modern offensive game by initiating the California "Bomb Them" deep strike quarterbacking. They even said before one important game: "The only way to beat Notre Dame is to Bomb them." Sling it offenses slowly crept up on Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler, and Notre Dame, and things ultimately had to change --- the utterness of the change should be obvious to anyone --- how in the heck else does Tommy Rees break everyone's records except Brady Quinns? (and I LOVE Tommy, and was that most hated of all people at the time --- a Tommy Rees apologist.)

Suddenly speed came into the offensive game, and old style defenses were caught offguard. It was then Miami and Florida State that completed the transition of the game by dumping the heavy lumbering linebackers (generally) and going for speed. The whole South (and most of the pros) went for speed at D-Ends and Linebackers, while ND and the North slept. This napping lasted until very recent times with even this board not understanding modern defense (always talking about beefing up our LBs towards 250 pounds rather than trusting speed and systemic gap-filling to overcome occasionally being blasted by a huge OLineman. Manti was a great Old Style. Jaylon was a great New Style. ... so were Coney and Tranquil. Not so was Morgan.

Coach has tried hard to get these qualities in his teams. But where do you go (consistently) to recruit athletic speed? The Houston ghettos? The Carolina coasts? Rural Georgia or ghetto Atlanta? Florida in the midst of MiamiU, FSU, FloridaU? And USC still gets to "pick first" in California.

The game changed away from the dominance of "Wisconsin+New Jersey Tough Guys" to Houston plus coastal southern speed. Coach Kelly is doing all that he can, in my opinion, and certainly TRYING to construct teams in synchronization with the modern game, while adding his own effective genius to the systems. People also forget that he was able to go undefeated at Cincinnati when he had no recruiting restrictions. If it wasn't as unattractive destination (Cincinnati vs the Sun and Fun of certain southern options), who knows what monsters he could have created in that northern garage?

On an odd historical note: WAY back with Rockne and the Four Horsemen, Saint Knute won with toughness but also with raw speed. Most folks don't realize that Elmer Layden was a BLAZING fast sprinter.

 

[irishandy]

Needed changes:

5) RB needs to change. The only hope is Tyree EE's (does he?) and he becomes the guy. Our 3 star RBs are 3 star RBs. They won't kill us but they're holding this offense back.

I agree with #5. This board has talked about difference-makers and guys that have the "it" factor and I think Tyree is that package player. This year our team missed Dexter Williams and you could see it. Last year was the first time in a while I was excited about the RB position in a long time. I thought the Folston/Bryant combo would be big; nope.

There are going to be changes to the RB position next year. Do you offer Tony Jones Jr a fifth year? Do you make a choice between C'bo and Jahmir Smith; where 1 of those 2 transfers? Can Jafar be the #1 back?

Tyree isn't coming here to sit. I don't think you call him your starter right away, but half way through next year he'll be our starter.

 

[irishandy]

Please point out the past NC winners who did not have 5* players. Won’t take long.

All of the big boys get their share of 5*- Clemson, Ohio St., Alabama...list goes on.
Alabama gets more than Auburn, Auburn won yesterday.
I think the start system is overrated.

 

[NDRock]

All of the big boys get their share of 5*- Clemson, Ohio St., Alabama...list goes on.
Alabama gets more than Auburn, Auburn won yesterday.
I think the start system is overrated.

So you agree that you need 5* players to win NCs? You seemed to indicate earlier that you didn’t.

The teams with the most 5* kids going into the season were:
Alabama
Ohio State
Georgia
LSU
Clemson

The top 5 teams in the ranking heading into this weekend were:
Ohio State
LSU
Clemson
Georgia
Alabama

You may think the system is overrated but the stats show otherwise.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

Next year should be a good year for us I don’t see us taking much of a hit with the loss of Okwara or Kareem we have enough depth and guys waiting to contribute. Gilman needs to return, Pride didn’t shine like we thought he would this year so hopefully there’s someone waiting on the roster to take over. LB almost everyone is back minus Bilal.

Offense big debate will be is book back or will Phil take over..
TE: Kmet is returning and we have tons of depth. We will be better
OL: everyone returns or should. We should be better
RB: release Chris Tyree from day one, move Jafar back to WR or keep the option open we have a lot of capable guys at running back plus smith and tony Jones should be back.
WR I think we will get losing Claypool but I think overall we can be better. Keys, Lenzy, jordan Johnson, Kevin Austin. Keep recruiting speed going forward.

 

[ARALOU]

Thanks, Johnny.

When I was at ND in the late 50s/early 60s, Bronko Nagurski and Stan Musial sent their sons to ND to play football. A couple of years later Leon Hart sent his son here. The point is not that these three were particularly good at ND, but that ND was the Kingdom of Honor in college football back then, and almost anyone at least thought of coming here.

These were also the days of simple power football and demanded a certain kind of tough grind-it-out player. Defenses were all aimed at the run. The popular defensive base was the "wide-tackle-six" with 6 down D linemen, one in each gap, and two linebackers. There were almost never more than THREE defensive backs --- i.e. ONE safety.

Muscle teams like Notre Dame could reduce the wide tackle six to a five man front with what was then called a nose guard (usually a real rough neck brawler --- on Buoniconti's team [my team's years] that was a weight-lifting wild boar named Norb Roy.). We could play "just" five D linemen and three linebackers --- thus initiating the importance of the Middle backer, where your superstar (Nick) played.

Smaller teams, still employing personnel like so-called "watch-charm guards" (Olinemen weighing like 180 pounds) could not last throughout seasons or even second halves.

USC started the change to the modern offensive game by initiating the California "Bomb Them" deep strike quarterbacking. They even said before one important game: "The only way to beat Notre Dame is to Bomb them." Sling it offenses slowly crept up on Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler, and Notre Dame, and things ultimately had to change --- the utterness of the change should be obvious to anyone --- how in the heck else does Tommy Rees break everyone's records except Brady Quinns? (and I LOVE Tommy, and was that most hated of all people at the time --- a Tommy Rees apologist.)

Suddenly speed came into the offensive game, and old style defenses were caught offguard. It was then Miami and Florida State that completed the transition of the game by dumping the heavy lumbering linebackers (generally) and going for speed. The whole South (and most of the pros) went for speed at D-Ends and Linebackers, while ND and the North slept. This napping lasted until very recent times with even this board not understanding modern defense (always talking about beefing up our LBs towards 250 pounds rather than trusting speed and systemic gap-filling to overcome occasionally being blasted by a huge OLineman. Manti was a great Old Style. Jaylon was a great New Style. ... so were Coney and Tranquil. Not so was Morgan.

Coach has tried hard to get these qualities in his teams. But where do you go (consistently) to recruit athletic speed? The Houston ghettos? The Carolina coasts? Rural Georgia or ghetto Atlanta? Florida in the midst of MiamiU, FSU, FloridaU? And USC still gets to "pick first" in California.

The game changed away from the dominance of "Wisconsin+New Jersey Tough Guys" to Houston plus coastal southern speed. Coach Kelly is doing all that he can, in my opinion, and certainly TRYING to construct teams in synchronization with the modern game, while adding his own effective genius to the systems. People also forget that he was able to go undefeated at Cincinnati when he had no recruiting restrictions. If it wasn't as unattractive destination (Cincinnati vs the Sun and Fun of certain southern options), who knows what monsters he could have created in that northern garage?

On an odd historical note: WAY back with Rockne and the Four Horsemen, Saint Knute won with toughness but also with raw speed. Most folks don't realize that Elmer Layden was a BLAZING fast sprinter.

I recall the 73 Sugar Bowl announcers talking about how the mammoth Irish offensive line averaged 250 pounds. That was large back then for the most part. Now everyone on the field is as big or almost that big.

 

[irishandy]

So you agree that you need 5* players to win NCs? You seemed to indicate earlier that you didn’t.

The teams with the most 5* kids going into the season were:
Alabama
Ohio State
Georgia
LSU
Clemson

The top 5 teams in the ranking heading into this weekend were:
Ohio State
LSU
Clemson
Georgia
Alabama

You may think the system is overrated but the stats show otherwise.

I think those teams can win regardless, not win every game, but be in it every year. All those teams above are always going to get the 5* We went undefeated last year and all those teams above had more 5* than we did.

 

[EvilleIrish]

Next year should be a good year for us I don’t see us taking much of a hit with the loss of Okwara or Kareem we have enough depth and guys waiting to contribute. Gilman needs to return, Pride didn’t shine like we thought he would this year so hopefully there’s someone waiting on the roster to take over. LB almost everyone is back minus Bilal.

Offense big debate will be is book back or will Phil take over..
TE: Kmet is returning and we have tons of depth. We will be better
OL: everyone returns or should. We should be better
RB: release Chris Tyree from day one, move Jafar back to WR or keep the option open we have a lot of capable guys at running back plus smith and tony Jones should be back.
WR I think we will get losing Claypool but I think overall we can be better. Keys, Lenzy, jordan Johnson, Kevin Austin. Keep recruiting speed going forward.

Book just had a 33-6 TD INT ratio. Phil taking over for him is not a discussion.

 

[NorthDakota]

Next year should be a good year for us I don’t see us taking much of a hit with the loss of Okwara or Kareem we have enough depth and guys waiting to contribute. Gilman needs to return, Pride didn’t shine like we thought he would this year so hopefully there’s someone waiting on the roster to take over. LB almost everyone is back minus Bilal.

Offense big debate will be is book back or will Phil take over..
TE: Kmet is returning and we have tons of depth. We will be better
OL: everyone returns or should. We should be better
RB: release Chris Tyree from day one, move Jafar back to WR or keep the option open we have a lot of capable guys at running back plus smith and tony Jones should be back.
WR I think we will get losing Claypool but I think overall we can be better. Keys, Lenzy, jordan Johnson, Kevin Austin. Keep recruiting speed going forward.

Should be better next year. 10 wins this year ain't too shabby. Let's win a bowl game now and go into the off season with that big dick energy.

 

[GATTACA!]

I think those teams can win regardless, not win every game, but be in it every year. All those teams above are always going to get the 5* We went undefeated last year and all those teams above had more 5* than we did.

And we were promptly blown out by the first team we faced that was loaded with 5* players.

We will have to get incredibly lucky to win a championship with the recruiting disadvantages we self impose. We haven't shown the ability to beat a single one of these 5* big boy programs and we'd have to beat two in a row to win it all.

 

[ThePiombino]

ND is an antiquated model on the athletic fields. Either change the standards, or it's mediocre football from here on out. Social media and eased standards at football factories are much more fun to play at. Kids today don't want to work...they want a path to the league.

LOLOLOLOL 33 wins over the last three seasons, four 10-win seasons out of five, an appearance (albeit an embarrassing one, but an appearance nonetheless) in the CFP is mediocre? lol Bud, I feel bad for your SO...

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Old Man Mike]

"mediocre": of moderate to low quality in value or performance.

GAWD!!! Almost mental.

I'd look elsewhere for an image of "mediocre."

 

[nd_fan]

LOLOLOLOL 33 wins over the last three seasons, four 10-win seasons out of five, an appearance (albeit an embarrassing one, but an appearance nonetheless) in the CFP is mediocre? lol Bud, I feel bad for your SO...

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Yea because 20 years from now, people will praise ND for having three 10-win seasons and a blown out CFP appearance.

Boy who wants championship wins when you can get 10 wins season (literally a given for elite teams) and play meaningless bowl games.

 

[johnnycando]

Honestly fellas you drive me nuts. We’re going 10-2 and just beat Stanford on the road for the first time in a decade and you can’t be happy. Not all, but too many.

Ridiculous fan base.

Thanks for bringing gravity.

 

[PraetorianND]

I’m super happy BK is our coach. I’m also super happy our fans don’t make the coaching decisions around here. Insanity.

 

[Free Manera]

Yea because 20 years from now, people will praise ND for having three 10-win seasons and a blown out CFP appearance.

Boy who wants championship wins when you can get 10 wins season (literally a given for elite teams) and play meaningless bowl games.

10 win seasons when all of ND’s rivals are down. I gotta agree that I don’t really care about winning 10 games when the two losses were against the only two good teams on the schedule. Hard to get excited over beating UVA...

There is middle ground in this argument. 10 win seasons are cool if they’re part of the trajectory to winning a CFP game next year. However shooting for 10 wins is kind of pathetic.

 

[ND88]

10 win seasons when all of ND’s rivals are down. I gotta agree that I don’t really care about winning 10 games when the two losses were against the only two good teams on the schedule. Hard to get excited over beating UVA...

There is middle ground in this argument. 10 win seasons are cool if they’re part of the trajectory to winning a CFP game next year. However shooting for 10 wins is kind of pathetic.

Gratitude isn’t a goal. It’s a state of mind. It’s difficult to argue against the progress that has been demonstrated since Kelly earned a well-deservd exit ticket four years ago. He made some changes and now he needs to make a few more. It’s still growth. This team was far from perfect this season, but they stepped up when they could have left on a “we just got our asses handed to us” note. That loss to Michigan makes it difficult to look back on that Georgia game and remember that we had a legit shot of winning a game that everyone said we had no business playing in. 10 wins is in fact better than a sh*t-show which is what this season could have very well been when fans were clamoring for the number 2 QB and everything from expect a loss to a ranked Navy (that was rolling at the time). Yes, the big games need be won. Of course. But it’s not that difficult to appreciate some stability ... Davie, Willingham, Weis, dear God.

 

[IrishTusker]

LOLOLOLOL 33 wins over the last three seasons, four 10-win seasons out of five, an appearance (albeit an embarrassing one, but an appearance nonetheless) in the CFP is mediocre? lol Bud, I feel bad for your SO...

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Another way of looking at the past three years is that we beat the teams we're supposed to beat, and I certainly give Kelly credit for that. I don't believe however that we beat any teams as underdogs in that period.

10 win seasons when all of ND’s rivals are down. I gotta agree that I don’t really care about winning 10 games when the two losses were against the only two good teams on the schedule. Hard to get excited over beating UVA...

There is middle ground in this argument. 10 win seasons are cool if they’re part of the trajectory to winning a CFP game next year. However shooting for 10 wins is kind of pathetic.

The point about our rivals is key. We saw yesterday that an elite teams are able to travel to Ann Arbor and beat Michigan with ease. Those sort of games remain major red flags and raise questions about any and all NC predictions being made here.

 

[NDRock]

Another way of looking at the past three years is that we beat the teams we're supposed to beat, and I certainly give Kelly credit for that. I don't believe however that we beat any teams as underdogs in that period.
.

I saw a stat today that us and Alabama are the only teams to not lose to an unranked team in the last three years. Crazy.

 

[Cali_domer]

10 win seasons when all of ND’s rivals are down. I gotta agree that I don’t really care about winning 10 games when the two losses were against the only two good teams on the schedule. Hard to get excited over beating UVA...

There is middle ground in this argument. 10 win seasons are cool if they’re part of the trajectory to winning a CFP game next year. However shooting for 10 wins is kind of pathetic.

Especially when ND is now scheduling for 10 wins. New Mexico and Bowling Green? In our victories ND was on average 17 point favorite so that is not shocking we won.

It is great we don't totally suck, but we ain't no where near elite. I am just riding out the time with BK, 5 more years. He is better than Weis, Davie and Willingham, but that is a incredibly low bar.

Okay season, they did not totally fold like they could have.

 

[NDRock]

Should be better next year. 10 wins this year ain't too shabby. Let's win a bowl game now and go into the off season with that big dick energy.

I'm not a fan of NDNation, but one thing I can say is they would not allow this nonsense on their board. Christ, I'm getting old.

 

[IrishTusker]

I saw a stat today that us and Alabama are the only teams to not lose to an unranked team in the last three years. Crazy.

Yes, because we banked a decade's worth of those losses in 2016.