Another Shooting

[Blazers46]

How do you pick which is a cultural failure instead of a government failure?

You can for sure let government affect culture. Open borders like @drayer54 said. When you have the numbers that cross there is no assimilation needed. Public schools and the woke ideas of individualism without the idea of patriotism or community but instead teach victim hood and guilt. Abortion and carelessness of life. Bail reform and lawlessness without consequence.

Morality is subjective, it’s become an opinion. When right and wrong become an opinion with no foundation you are free to do as you please as long as you can make it make sense. People are taught to be individuals without any knowledge of thought about the collective or community. Patriotism has been replaced with victimhood or guilt. We subsidize divorce and broken families. If women can do everything a man can do what is the purpose of a man? If we don’t even know what a man is or what a women is and even that is now subjective. I’m not saying a working women is wrong but when men make money they think about their income in terms of providing for the family, when women make money it’s more about being independent… and not needing a man. I could go on and on. You can be white, brown, purple… rich, middle class, poor… or living in America or Africa. If you live in a nuclear family with a mom and a dad that know how to function you will be successful. Our culture and our government do everything to destroy this unit. Why are divorce rates so high, why are people not even getting married, why are people electing to not have kids… which is one thing needed to ensure your nations future. We have a country full of entitled individuals. That’s culture and governments fault.

 

[Blazers46]

I suppose we have to ban Super Bowl parades now.

That would be the government thing to do. Instead getting at the root of the problem they just take things away.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I want the government to do it's fucking job, that's all I advocate for. Your citizens are getting railed on healthcare by paying much more and getting much less, you have children with cafeteria debt, modern slavery system thats humming along (prison system), and a corporate class that gets to re-write the tax code. Those are all tangible items that can be addressed.

Distracting everyone from all of this include a litany of things that simply don't matter, many of which get hemmed and hawed about endlessly in multiple threads on this site in the political forum. I feel as though I needn't get specific.

Yeah, you pretty much nail it here, though. The Federal Government works for people that don't really need it but continually ask for and receive more when they're already more well off than the majority. Everyone else is on their own.

But, Trans Kids. So it goes.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

First, crime isn’t the biggest threat to single parent homes. Culture is. Government assistance aids separation. Any UBI will further assist in the separation of families. Part of culture in American has become entitlements and victim hood. Instead of increasing subsidies and promoting single family homes let’s further subsidize and further promote two parent homes.

Without googling places like Chicago, South Bend, Elkhart, Las Cruces NM provide free breakfast and lunch to students. They have for years even in the summer time.

Phones and tablets are offered to low income families. How are you missing this?

Go to the ghettos, they get free shit all the time!!! We have the richest poor people in all the world. The purchase power of the American poor is already pretty high and higher than most all places.

No lights, no heat, no Internet, no tech, no food… that’s not governments fault. The right has churches and food pantries. Most homeless shelters are run by Christian organizations. Most food pantries are run by Christian organizations. What are your atheist friends doing besides pounding for more government?

Guns are surely a part of the problem but what continues to puzzle me is why did the regularity of mass shootings not begin until the mid-1990s? Or is that just a case of recency bias or lack of media awareness? Guns, even semi-auto; have been readily available decades before then. We all remember seeing classmates w/ a rifle in the gun rack of their pickup truck & never gave it another thought b/c they were obviously hunting enthusiasts.

The only mass shootings I can recall from history prior to Columbine or Jonesboro (can’t recall which one was first) were the UT student in the bell tower in the 1960s (way before most of us were born) and a McDonalds in California in the 1980s. I’m sure there were others but not at epidemic proportions. I remember where I was when both the Columbine & Jonesboro school shootings took place. Again, may it’s recency bias but if they were happening at today’s rate back in the 70s-80s, I would think it would’ve still been front-page news.

Today, we hear that there is almost one mass shooting for every day of the year. I say all that to say it’s not binary to guns although guns are a component. To turn one’s nose to the other components isn’t helpful but then again today’s society is more concerned w/ clicks and who can have the sickest burns w/ the most snark.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Guns are surely a part of the problem but what continues to puzzle me is why did the regularity of mass shootings not begin until the mid-1990s? Or is that just a case of recency bias or lack of media awareness? Guns, even semi-auto; have been readily available decades before then. We all remember seeing classmates w/ a rifle in the gun rack of their pickup truck & never gave it another thought b/c they were obviously hunting enthusiasts.

The only mass shootings I can recall from history prior to Columbine or Jonesboro (can’t recall which one was first) were the UT student in the bell tower in the 1960s (way before most of us were born) and a McDonalds in California in the 1980s. I’m sure there were others but not at epidemic proportions. I remember where I was when both the Columbine & Jonesboro school shootings took place. Again, may it’s recency bias but if they were happening at today’s rate back in the 70s-80s, I would think it would’ve still been front-page news.

Today, we hear that there is almost one mass shooting for every day of the year. I say all that to say it’s not binary to guns although guns are a component. To turn one’s nose to the other components isn’t helpful but then again today’s society is more concerned w/ clicks and who can have the sickest burns w/ the most snark.

Follow the legislation. And follow the money.

 

[TorontoGold]

You can for sure let government affect culture. Open borders like @drayer54 said. When you have the numbers that cross there is no assimilation needed. Public schools and the woke ideas of individualism without the idea of patriotism or community but instead teach victim hood and guilt. Abortion and carelessness of life. Bail reform and lawlessness without consequence.

Morality is subjective, it’s become an opinion. When right and wrong become an opinion with no foundation you are free to do as you please as long as you can make it make sense. People are taught to be individuals without any knowledge of thought about the collective or community. Patriotism has been replaced with victimhood or guilt. We subsidize divorce and broken families. If women can do everything a man can do what is the purpose of a man? If we don’t even know what a man is or what a women is and even that is now subjective. I’m not saying a working women is wrong but when men make money they think about their income in terms of providing for the family, when women make money it’s more about being independent… and not needing a man. I could go on and on. You can be white, brown, purple… rich, middle class, poor… or living in America or Africa. If you live in a nuclear family with a mom and a dad that know how to function you will be successful. Our culture and our government do everything to destroy this unit. Why are divorce rates so high, why are people not even getting married, why are people electing to not have kids… which is one thing needed to ensure your nations future. We have a country full of entitled individuals. That’s culture and governments fault.

I would challenge the notion of "woke" individualism, would not pushing for more inclusivity be pro-community? I don't see how modern conservative policy that advocates for nativism and unfettered capitalism (a real doozy to have nativist views and be staunchly pro-capitalist) is something that promotes a sense of community. I won't continue on this since it is a shooting thread.

Gendered household roles is archaic, as long as shit gets done in the house it shouldn't matter who did it. I've had girlfriends that couldn't cook for shit and that didn't impact the "house". That's your impression though of how a woman "thinks" by centering it around the man as if it's imperative for a man to be the measuring stick.

I generally agree with you that the government and culture have lead to entitlement, I just disagree on the reasons behind each. I just am puzzled (to center this back to shootings) as to why the government doesn't bare most of the blame for this. They've politicized the whole process of any sort of reasonable regulations on gun ownership, it's not the individuals fault that firing a gun is fun as shit. Culture based on learned societal norms, if you have a government telling you "It's your birthright, and someday you'll need one to protect yourself" of course you'll inherently feel that any sort of regulation is an afront of your rights. I don't think reasonable gun owners should be sent to the gulag, by no means, but would think that commonsense reforms should be done. Think of all the intercity crime that is bemoaned as destroying the country, reduce the ability for those fuckers to get a full setup.

 

[TorontoGold]

Distracting everyone from all of this include a litany of things that simply don't matter, many of which get hemmed and hawed about endlessly in multiple threads on this site in the political forum. I feel as though I needn't get specific.

Yeah, you pretty much nail it here, though. The Federal Government works for people that don't really need it but continually ask for and receive more when they're already more well off than the majority. Everyone else is on their own.

But, Trans Kids. So it goes.

I just don't get it - I agree with them on saying the Government fucking sucks, but in this one instance it's "not the governments place". However, multiple other matters Government should be in every nook and cranny. I just want consistency.

I don't want "more government" I want efficient better government. If there was any sort of true "fiscal conservative" they run the government like a true business and enforcement residency rules for corporate taxes. Literally making it easier for companies to offshore profits for services earned and performed in the US. I work on this type of planning quite often and it's hilarious how easy it is to scrape profits out of California/Kentucky/Georgia/Michigan so the taxes paid there are almost nil. Then you can fund all your projects on making lives better for citizens without touching personal income. Of course, peasant brained people will go "but m'lord will take me job" without realizing that since we're in late stage capitalism - efficiencies have already been pushed to the max and if you could be offshored they would have done it by now.

 

[PerthDomer]

Guns are surely a part of the problem but what continues to puzzle me is why did the regularity of mass shootings not begin until the mid-1990s? Or is that just a case of recency bias or lack of media awareness? Guns, even semi-auto; have been readily available decades before then. We all remember seeing classmates w/ a rifle in the gun rack of their pickup truck & never gave it another thought b/c they were obviously hunting enthusiasts.

The only mass shootings I can recall from history prior to Columbine or Jonesboro (can’t recall which one was first) were the UT student in the bell tower in the 1960s (way before most of us were born) and a McDonalds in California in the 1980s. I’m sure there were others but not at epidemic proportions. I remember where I was when both the Columbine & Jonesboro school shootings took place. Again, may it’s recency bias but if they were happening at today’s rate back in the 70s-80s, I would think it would’ve still been front-page news.

Today, we hear that there is almost one mass shooting for every day of the year. I say all that to say it’s not binary to guns although guns are a component. To turn one’s nose to the other components isn’t helpful but then again today’s society is more concerned w/ clicks and who can have the sickest burns w/ the most snark.

Guns have proliferated. There are twice as many guns in the country today as there were in 2000.

It's also a thing that once it happens, everyone considers they can do it. See suicide bombings for a similar thing.

And as to immigration as someone else brought up, immigrants even illegal commit crimes at a lower rate than native born Americans. So not even connected to the issue.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I just don't get it - I agree with them on saying the Government fucking sucks, but in this one instance it's "not the governments place". However, multiple other matters Government should be in every nook and cranny. I just want consistency.

I don't want "more government" I want efficient better government. If there was any sort of true "fiscal conservative" they run the government like a true business and enforcement residency rules for corporate taxes. Literally making it easier for companies to offshore profits for services earned and performed in the US. I work on this type of planning quite often and it's hilarious how easy it is to scrape profits out of California/Kentucky/Georgia/Michigan so the taxes paid there are almost nil. Then you can fund all your projects on making lives better for citizens without touching personal income. Of course, peasant brained people will go "but m'lord will take me job" without realizing that since we're in late stage capitalism - efficiencies have already been pushed to the max and if you could be offshored they would have done it by now.

America has vilified the poor, made anyone making $100K a year believe they're rich and the poor are sucking taxes out of their paychecks and have led everyone to believe that they're all able to become millionaires just by "pulling up their bootstraps and working hard." Misdirection from all the neoliberal bullshit that been shoveled at us for decades.

As for shootings, it's simple. The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Act was enacted as part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. It expired on September 13, 2004. Columbine was five years prior, crime was going down and Democrats in Congress at the time showed very little urgency or excitement about renewing the act again. Four years later, President Blackenstein the Kenyan Socialist from The Chicago Machine took office. "They" were coming for all your guns at that point.

Guns are one of many wedge issues that divide us and it doesn't matter how many people get killed. We keep going around in circles while we subsidize more summer homes for the Koch Brothers and government keeps working more and more for the people who need and deserve it least.

 

[RDU Irish]

Or secure the border. Deport the criminals being dumped in our country. Enforce the laws. Police the communities. Just an alternative idea.

D.C. police chief: Average homicide suspect has 11 prior arrests before committing murder

Can't believe they let this racist POS run the DC po-po department.

 

[Blazers46]

I would challenge the notion of "woke" individualism, would not pushing for more inclusivity be pro-community? I don't see how modern conservative policy that advocates for nativism and unfettered capitalism (a real doozy to have nativist views and be staunchly pro-capitalist) is something that promotes a sense of community. I won't continue on this since it is a shooting thread.

Gendered household roles is archaic, as long as shit gets done in the house it shouldn't matter who did it. I've had girlfriends that couldn't cook for shit and that didn't impact the "house". That's your impression though of how a woman "thinks" by centering it around the man as if it's imperative for a man to be the measuring stick.

I generally agree with you that the government and culture have lead to entitlement, I just disagree on the reasons behind each. I just am puzzled (to center this back to shootings) as to why the government doesn't bare most of the blame for this. They've politicized the whole process of any sort of reasonable regulations on gun ownership, it's not the individuals fault that firing a gun is fun as shit. Culture based on learned societal norms, if you have a government telling you "It's your birthright, and someday you'll need one to protect yourself" of course you'll inherently feel that any sort of regulation is an afront of your rights. I don't think reasonable gun owners should be sent to the gulag, by no means, but would think that commonsense reforms should be done. Think of all the intercity crime that is bemoaned as destroying the country, reduce the ability for those fuckers to get a full setup.

When it cones to community and the influx of migrants from all over the world assimilation is key to community. Instead of assimilation they are immediately told they are victims and how awful the white man is, community is almost impossible. But I am more arguing the community within the home there is none. We live in a world where split families and mixed families are very common, and then we wonder why the children produced out of those families have bad outcomes.

When the same children are also taught at their public school that everything their parents are teaching them is bullshit, that creates a split and rift within themselves as well.

Gender roles are still sort of a thing. When a woman becomes an adult, they are multi optional, they can either become a mother or housewife, or they can go into the workforce. They can also do a combination of those options as well. Men when they enter adult age their three options are to work, work, or work. Women being the breadwinners are far more likely to end in divorce. Ask yourself why. Child outcomes are worse when the female is the breadwinner. You can they archaic, women are fully capable of living on their own. But for better child outcomes and societal outcomes the proof is there whether you agree with those facts or not. I’m sure if I dug a little bit, I could find some correlation between the cultural shift in gender roles and birthing rates, which has been a point the left makes in regard to the need for open borders.

I think I’ve said it before and it’s worth repeating that I am probably not on the conservative side when it comes to gun regulations. What I am not for is gun regulations and that is it. I feel like it’s the government and societies fault for the issues. We currently have with gun violence, so instead of fixing the root of the problem, which is not guns at all, they just want to take away guns, or access to guns. Which I am not entirely against. I think society and government should take the brunt of the blame, but you are not fixing society by just taking things away . Fix the root of the problem and the root of the problem is not free breakfast.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Follow the legislation. And follow the money.

I found this article from the LA Times that provided some context. Not saying it’s a panacea but beats the typical back & forth regarding guns which never leads to a solution much less compromise.

Opinion: We analyzed 53 years of mass shooting data. Attacks aren't just increasing, they're getting deadlier

The Odessa and Midland, Texas, mass shooting further confirms what's disturbingly clear: Attacks are becoming more frequent and are getting deadlier.

www.latimes.com

Mass shooting memes spread by diffusion. First, innovators like the Columbine High School killers provide a blueprint for early adopters to follow. Each new shooting normalizes the process and encourages new participants to join in.

The validation process is self-sustaining. Like genre conventions in movies and pop culture, mass shooters today are conforming to expectations of what mass shooters do. They post their pet ideologies on the internet, use similar-style assault rifles, and try to top the death count of those who came before.

We too are conforming. Politicians and civic leaders offer thoughts and prayers. The media feature the victims’ families, cover the funerals and probe the killers’ backgrounds. And we try to “harden” targets, putting children through rituals of lockdown drills and equipping them with bulletproof backpacks for school.




Studies estimate that in the aftermath of their attacks, mass killers receive approximately $75 million in free media coverage, a level professional athletes and Hollywood actors would envy. For men who feel angry, alienated and anonymous, the incentives to perform are appealing. And bigger body counts mean bigger headlines. One recently thwarted shooter posted that, “A good 100 kills would be nice,” and another wanted to “break a world record.”

 

[IRISHDODGER]

As for shootings, it's simple. The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Act was enacted as part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. It expired on September 13, 2004. Columbine was five years prior, crime was going down and Democrats in Congress at the time showed very little urgency or excitement about renewing the act again.

That made sense when I read it b/c we all remember Columbine but looking at the data from this article shows the highest # of school & mass shootings occurred between 1992-1994. Maybe that’s what led to the Act you referenced but it’s never approached the high of 1994 since. Jonesboro was in 1998 & as you stated Columbine was ‘99. There was a spike in 2004 but you can’t tell from the graph if it was before or after the expiration of the Act. Seems too random to assign blame to just that anyways but I wished it was explored more publicly. I don’t even recall the shootings from 1992-1994 but I can recall some of the names from the shooters at Columbine in ‘99 & other recent mass shootings.

Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say.

news.northeastern.edu

 

[PerthDomer]

That made sense when I read it b/c we all remember Columbine but looking at the data from this article shows the highest # of school & mass shootings occurred between 1992-1994. Maybe that’s what led to the Act you referenced but it’s never approached the high of 1994 since. Jonesboro was in 1998 & as you stated Columbine was ‘99. There was a spike in 2004 but you can’t tell from the graph if it was before or after the expiration of the Act. Seems too random to assign blame to just that anyways but I wished it was explored more publicly. I don’t even recall the shootings from 1992-1994 but I can recall some of the names from the shooters at Columbine in ‘99 & other recent mass shootings.

Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say

Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say.

news.northeastern.edu

I think overall gun violence and mass shootings aren't one for one. The difficulty is mass shootings are rare enough that it's harder to do the kinds of studies you can do on overall gun violence.

I think raising the age limit to 21, wait times with background checks would probably help with both. Passing and using red flag laws would help more with mass shootings.

The 2000's saw a massive proliferation in gun ownership once the gun bill expired though. Anyone who got riled up about big city crime surging should probably wonder whether the surge in guns floating around America was a good thing.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Of course it’s not all a result of the internet but interesting nonetheless…

https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/health/tower-documentary-shooting/index.html

 

[drayer54]

Alright, a few different points here. First, I'll point out that you've now swung to a completely different argument. You've switched from a "good guy with a gun stops bad guy with gun during active crime" argument (which is not shown to be statistically true) to a "more guns lower the initial committing of crimes" argument. Totally different, still probably wrong.

I wasn't able to find the FBI study you referenced above with a Google search, but I assume that no direct causation between the two figures was put forward by the FBI. So presumably what you've done is seen that crime rates are down in a report, and seen that gun ownership is up in another report, and decided to draw your own conclusions.

The issue with correlation = causation is that anyone can make similar arguments using whatever they want:

Crime is way down since the 90s:

Reported violent crime rate in the U.S. 2023| Statista

In 2023, the violent crime rate in the United States was 363.8 cases per 100,000 of the population.

www.statista.com

Do you know what has increased since the 90s?

View attachment 3055394

You are actively attempting to make us less safe by strengthening the border.

This took a minute. I recall this coming out and distributing it via a PAC to state legislators. This is one article, but many people at the time drew this conclusion. Accepting other countries prison populations, floods of Chinese migrants, African migrants, and Venezuelan gangs doesn’t make anyone safer.

Are AR-15 Rifles a Public Safety Threat? Here's What the Data Say | Being Classically Liberal

Between 2007 and 2017, nearly 1,700 people were murdered with a knife or sharp object per year. That’s almost four times the number of people murdered by an assailant with any sort of rifle. But what if we look at just AR-15 rifles?

fee.org

How many murders involve rifles like the AR-15?​

If we take the time to look at the raw data provided by the FBI, we find that all rifles, not just “assault-style rifles,” constitute on average 340 homicides per year from 2007 through 2017 (see Figure 1.). When we adjust these numbers to take under-reporting into account, that number rises to an average of 439 per year.

Figure 2 compares rifle homicides to homicides with other non-firearm weapons. Believe it or not, between 2007 and 2017, nearly 1,700 people were murdered with a knife or sharp object per year. That’s almost four times the number of people murdered by an assailant with any sort of rifle.

 

[drayer54]

 

[Blazers46]

They are saying it’s an “isolated” incident. my only guess is that it’s a he said she said on who shot first and not wanting ruin someone’s name if they were just defending themselves. I guess I’m being optimistic.

 

[Sea Turtle]

I guess poverty and the housing market made them decide to 'bust some caps in that ass' at a parade.

 

[Blazers46]

I guess poverty and the housing market made them decide to 'bust some caps in that ass' at a parade.

They were upset they weren’t offered free breakfast in grade school…

 

[Sea Turtle]

They were upset they weren’t offered free breakfast in grade school…

Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money.

And school breakfast.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

 

[drayer54]

Well, we don’t know that these are the guys. Media is covering that up. If those were white teens in a MAGA hat, it would be very different.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Stay strapped or get clapped.

 

[drayer54]

Anyone seen pictures of the KC shooters yet? Bueller?

 

[TorontoGold]

The media is doing such a great job hiding the pictures that they make you forget you actually responded to a post with the pictures! Ahhhhhhh!!!!

 

[drayer54]

The media is doing such a great job hiding the pictures that they make you forget you actually responded to a post with the pictures! Ahhhhhhh!!!!

TMZ pics aren’t official. Where’s the mugshots? Where’s the bios? Where’s the stuff we get when it fits the narrative?

 

[GATTACA!]

TMZ pics aren’t official. Where’s the mugshots? Where’s the bios? Where’s the stuff we get when it fits the narrative?

Are all of the media companies in a vast conspiracy to suppress all this info? Or could it be that they all realize that compared to a mass shooter people don't really care about two people getting into an argument and shooting each other? I guess we'll never know.

The AP released their names and where they're from btw.

 

[TorontoGold]

TMZ pics aren’t official. Where’s the mugshots? Where’s the bios? Where’s the stuff we get when it fits the narrative?

My twitter feed is broken because alt right grifters think it’s a big conspiracy because they can’t astroturf some nutjob shooter into “he’s actually a good guy”. So, I guess you’re right it doesn’t fit the narrative and you’re wondering where you can get more information on if they will be speaking at the next TPUSA convention.

 

[Blazers46]

Finland school shooting: One child killed, two injured as 12-year-old suspect detained | CNN

A child has died and two others have been seriously injured in a school shooting in Finland, according to the country’s national police.

amp.cnn.com