Another Shooting

[TorontoGold]

Gun violence is not inevitable. Every other developed nation in the world does a better job of protecting its people from gun violence. The gun murder rate in the United States is 25 times higher than it is in other nations, and American teenagers are 82 times more likely to die from a gun homicide than their international peers.

Domestic terrorism like this is something else. All shapes, colors and forms of it should be condemned across the board without exception. It isn't.

Gun violence is a public health issue and needs to be treated as such. I consider not getting riddled with bullets at a grocery store or at a concert a fundamental right, and I don't consider the best solution is being armed to myself . I have three elementary aged kids. They've done lock down drills since Pre K. That's dog crap, and quite frankly, I don't feel that coincides with having freedom or any pursuit of happiness. I come from a family of police officers and teachers. Post Columbine, I am now living a life having to stress about the safety of both.

We had assault weapons bans in my lifetime under Reagan, GHW Bush, etc. that were supported by both parties. Overwhelmingly. Then one day those bills didn't get passed anymore. Why?

White replacement theory is a helluva drug.

 

[Rogue219]

These photos don't seem to have anything to do with the Second Amendment, freedom, fundamental rights or protection of family/home. Can someone explain or help me understand? To me, this is not normal, regardless of whether it is black or white families. I don't know that this is healthy enthusiasm.

We sent out a Christmas card years ago when the kids were little and they all had ND jerseys on. I thought even that was a bit tacky, but we did it. This....someone help me try to understand the motivation here. I'm not being flippant.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

Seems like a lot of posturing or boasting to me……..similar to people posting pics of their cars, money, houses, physiques, clothes, etc…….look at me and how important, powerful (or insert other descriptive words) I am. With firearms as shown in your examples……probably more along the lines of “don’t mess with me or my family……if you do, I’ll @%#! you up!!!

 

[irishff1014]

Apparently this dude threatened to shoot up a school as well. He was evaluated for 36 hours. Which to me is unacceptable. I do know that here is MD if you attempt to harm
yourself you are out in a 72 hour hold. Or that’s what the police tell us when they EP someone. I am not sure why someone threatening to shoot a school would be any less. And maybe that’s there law.

This comes down to pure evil. This is the prime example of pre-mediated. If you are driving 3 hours to shoot someone that’s nothing but pre-mediated. I know we all have our own opinions on things but I believe pre-mediated murder should be punishable by the death penalty.

I can’t imagine being a parent of a person that does this kind of evil. However they say in some of the shows they say there’s no way to tell if your child is capable to do this and I would have to disagree to some degree. That guy looked very angry in his photos you can’t team me his parents didn’t see that at all?

Unless his parents had the same mindset that he did then I could see them not expecting this. I know being a teenager and now that I am getting ready to have one of my own you are still responsible for building a relation with them as they change and grow up. Yes you want them to learn and to be able to do things on their own but you still need to be there to mentor them and punish them accordingly.

 

[Bishop2b5]

10. Cleveland, Ohio
The murder rate in Cleveland is 24.09 per 100,000.

9. Memphis, Tennessee
The murder rate in Memphis is 29.21 per 100,000.

8. Kansas City, Missouri
The murder rate in Kansas City is 29.88 per 100,000.

7. New Orleans, Louisiana
The murder rate in New Orleans is 30.67 per 100,000.

6. Baton Rouge, Louisiana
The murder rate in Baton Rouge is 31.72 per 100,000.

5. Dayton, Ohio
The murder rate in Dayton is 34.18 per 100,000.

4. Detroit, Michigan
The murder rate in Detroit is 41.45 per 100,000 residents.

3. Birmingham, Alabama
The murder rate in Birmingham is 50.62 per 100,000.

2. Baltimore, Maryland
The murder rate in Baltimore is 58.27 per 100,000.

1. St. Louis, Missouri
The murder rate in St. Louis is 64.54 per 100,000.

Amazingly, Chicago falls outside the top 10 with a murder rate of just over 18 per 100,000.

Remove the murders from just the top 10 murder cities in the country and the US moves to having one of the lower murder rates in the world. In other words, most of the US isn't very violent and has a lower murder rate than most of the rest of the world. Figure out what those 10 cities have in common and what's going on there, solve those issues, and you've essentially solved the problem. Unfortunately, politicians and well-meaning but naive twits consistently want to treat the symptoms, not the underlying problems.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

I would say a good bet is that it primarily comes down to a combination of poorly educated individuals, community poverty and lack of family support/structure. You rarely, if ever, see significant murder rates where there is good education, strong family units and community financial stability. It’s a cycle that keeps repeating itself.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Two things:

1) why is there always a pissing match between both political sides every time this happens? The vast majority of sentient human beings (99.9%) would/should condone these tragedies regardless of what was uttered/believed/posted by the psychopath that commits the tragedies.

2) why do they never comment on the suspect begin on psychiatric meds for bi-polar, schizophrenia, etc? I asked my wife & she guessed it was a HIPPA violation to report that. Is that the case? If not, it being reported would go a long way on shutting down the political narrative and dealing w/ the root of the problem…mental illness.

 

[Sea Turtle]

I think I just heard on the radio that more people were shot and killed in Chicago last weekend than all the people in these three mass shootings combined.

Unreal.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I think I just heard on the radio that more people were shot and killed in Chicago last weekend than all the people in these three mass shootings combined.

Unreal.

Shhhh. You're not allowed to mention that.

 

[Valpodoc85]

Guns violence is the symptom not the disease. Society can be conservative, homogeneous, with everyone in lockstep or diverse, heterogeneous with emphasis oh the individual. The US of A has been the experiment to push individual freedoms. This comes at a cost. The second amendment is there to stop rogue groups from becoming disproportionately powerful, not necessarily just the government. It does not surprise me at times of social and economic change the weak and the wacky would insist on being heard. The fix for what ails us is less individual freedom and a bigger push toward group identity

 

[Blazers46]

White replacement theory is a helluva drug.

I think I just heard on the radio that more people were shot and killed in Chicago last weekend than all the people in these three mass shootings combined.

Unreal.

Sure is. People who subscribe to this theory just need to push for more abortions and ignore gun violence in inner cities….

 

[Bishop2b5]

These photos don't seem to have anything to do with the Second Amendment, freedom, fundamental rights or protection of family/home. Can someone explain or help me understand? To me, this is not normal, regardless of whether it is black or white families. I don't know that this is healthy enthusiasm.

We sent out a Christmas card years ago when the kids were little and they all had ND jerseys on. I thought even that was a bit tacky, but we did it. This....someone help me try to understand the motivation here. I'm not being flippant.

I can't fully explain and don't have all the answers, but I'll give you my two cents worth. I'm a staunch conservative and believe in the 2nd Amendment. I support (and fully believe in) the right for those of sound mind and without a significant criminal history to own guns for hunting and protection. That being said, I personally have never owned a gun. My dad had hunting guns in the house when I was growing up and I was an occasional hunter. I haven't been hunting in 31 years, but have nothing against it and would likely go now if offered an opportunity. I've shot rifles, shotguns, and handguns, and am a decent shot. I never felt a need for a gun for self-protection, but if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one and don't believe I'd lose a second of sleep over using one to protect my family.

So, no problem with hunting and no problem with law-abiding people owning guns in order to protect their family, self, and property. That being said, I'm with you to some extent on the pictures you posted. I don't really get the whole over the top obsession with gun ownership, posing with your AR-15, the family photos with everyone holding a gun, and etc. To me, a gun is just a tool. No more, no less. My family doesn't send out Christmas cards with us all holding power drills, chainsaws, crescent wrenches, or electric can openers, Those things are just tools, not a culture to center your life around. Same with guns.

 

[drayer54]

We had assault weapons bans in my lifetime under Reagan, GHW Bush, etc. that were supported by both parties. Overwhelmingly. Then one day those bills didn't get passed anymore. Why?

Because people recognized evidence and data that showed they did nothing to reduce crime, including homicides. They didn’t work and people recognized it.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I'm amazed at some of the ideas and attempts to reduce gun violence. You have one group, we'll call them group A, who are high crime, follow few if any laws about gun ownership, commit numerous murders, and are responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun-related murders and other crimes. Then you have group B, and they use their guns for hunting, target practice, and home/personal defense. They're typically law-abiding, rarely commit violent crimes, and are what we refer to as middle America. Guess which group those who cry the most about gun violence tend to go after in order to "stop the madness."

 

[drayer54]

I'm amazed at some of the ideas and attempts to reduce gun violence. You have one group, we'll call them group A, who are high crime, follow few if any laws about gun ownership, commit numerous murders, and are responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun-related murders and other crimes. Then you have group B, and they use their guns for hunting, target practice, and home/personal defense. They're typically law-abiding, rarely commit violent crimes, and are what we refer to as middle America. Guess which group those who cry the most about gun violence tend to go after in order to "stop the madness."

For whom do those people typically vote? It’s a politically motivated attack on the opposition.

 

[Rogue219]

Because people recognized evidence and data that showed they did nothing to reduce crime, including homicides. They didn’t work and people recognized it.

Yet here we are on a message board in a thread titled "Another Shooting."

Meanwhile 7 in 10 voters favor an assault weapons ban, including 54% of Republicans.

 

[drayer54]

Yet here we are on a message board in a thread titled "Another Shooting."

Meanwhile 7 in 10 voters favor an assault weapons ban, including 54% of Republicans.

Yet here we are, with vastly different dynamics in policing and political outlooks on crime and punishment. Also, your stats are bullshit. If 7 in 10 supported it, we would have it. Again, support for gun control took a nosedive when it became obvious to many we are on our own for self-defense and that Dems would seek bail relief for those terrorizing communities.

Support For Stricter Gun Laws Drops Under 50%, Poll Finds — Lowest Rate In 6 Years

Support for more gun restrictions has fallen by nine percent since April.

www.forbes.com

 

[Rogue219]

Yet here we are, with vastly different dynamics in policing and political outlooks on crime and punishment. Also, your stats are bullshit. If 7 in 10 supported it, we would have it. Again, support for gun control took a nosedive when it became obvious to many we are on our own for self-defense and that Dems would seek bail relief for those terrorizing communities.

Support For Stricter Gun Laws Drops Under 50%, Poll Finds — Lowest Rate In 6 Years

Support for more gun restrictions has fallen by nine percent since April.

www.forbes.com

Sure.

 

[Rogue219]

I can't fully explain and don't have all the answers, but I'll give you my two cents worth. I'm a staunch conservative and believe in the 2nd Amendment. I support (and fully believe in) the right for those of sound mind and without a significant criminal history to own guns for hunting and protection. That being said, I personally have never owned a gun. My dad had hunting guns in the house when I was growing up and I was an occasional hunter. I haven't been hunting in 31 years, but have nothing against it and would likely go now if offered an opportunity. I've shot rifles, shotguns, and handguns, and am a decent shot. I never felt a need for a gun for self-protection, but if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one and don't believe I'd lose a second of sleep over using one to protect my family.

So, no problem with hunting and no problem with law-abiding people owning guns in order to protect their family, self, and property. That being said, I'm with you to some extent on the pictures you posted. I don't really get the whole over the top obsession with gun ownership, posing with your AR-15, the family photos with everyone holding a gun, and etc. To me, a gun is just a tool. No more, no less. My family doesn't send out Christmas cards with us all holding power drills, chainsaws, crescent wrenches, or electric can openers, Those things are just tools, not a cultureF to center your life around. Same with guns.

Firmly in agreement with you here. Thank you for the feedback and civility. Tough to come by.

 

[Blazers46]

I have guns, lots of guns. I own a retail store and other cash businesses so I feel l need to. I carry on my hip, I probably have one in my backpack and I typically have one in my truck or office that stay in my truck or office... as well as guns I keep at home in my home and in my barn. Walking around you NEVER see them. As I sit here at my office at the store I have three guns within 10 feet of me.

The problem is politics not guns. I have friends locally that are staunch democrats that never believed in gun ownership now armed to the teeth because we are so close to the border. If we had the borders under control less people would be buying guns locally. The politicization of the border leaves the border wide open and open to be interpreted anyway by anyone. I haven't dabbled too much into the thinking of the Buffalo man but if he were led to thinking there is some conspiracy to brown america he has a lot of "ammo" to go on and you will always have a radical nut like this from time to time. The Subway shooter the same. I havent read much about his motivations but when you are fed by politicians and the media that you are a victim and mean ol wypepo are the enemy there will be some radical nut doing things like this. If he were smart he could just wait closer to election time when politicians encourage rioting and looting he could have taken his aggression out on foot locker with no questions asked.

The following link is from maybe a year ago but its something that happens routinely on a smaller scale. For context Chapparral / Vado is literally 5 minutes from my family farm. We have some German Baptist neighbors that do not believe in guns... they do now.

Border Patrol agents find 134 migrants in stash houses in Vado, Chaparral, San Elizario

Agents found 134 migrants and seized more than $600,000 worth of meth over\u00a0two days at three separate stash houses in San Elizario and New Mexico.

www.elpasotimes.com

With that said I really do not have a problem with making it harder to get guns. I think the fear is if we leave it to politicians they will screw everything up anyway and the armed civilian will then turn into the unarmed law abiding dead citizen because the bad guys will have them anyway.

 

[Irish#1]

There's a balance in there, but neither Dems or Repubs want to meet in the middle. Dems want all or nothing. Repubs are afraid that if they give an inch, the next step with be asking for a foot, then a yard, etc. The 2nd amendment was written in a time when it made sense for citizens to bear arms. I'm still in favor of the 2nd amendment, but I can't justify to myself semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Having said that, I don't believe stricter gun laws is the total answer. Better background checks should help, but people that want a gun will find a way to get one. If they can't get a gun and are intent on doing harm like this idiot, they find another way like making a bomb.

On a side note, I think many people freak out because some rifles look like automatic weapons.

 

[ulukinatme]

10. Cleveland, Ohio
The murder rate in Cleveland is 24.09 per 100,000.

9. Memphis, Tennessee
The murder rate in Memphis is 29.21 per 100,000.

8. Kansas City, Missouri
The murder rate in Kansas City is 29.88 per 100,000.

7. New Orleans, Louisiana
The murder rate in New Orleans is 30.67 per 100,000.

6. Baton Rouge, Louisiana
The murder rate in Baton Rouge is 31.72 per 100,000.

5. Dayton, Ohio
The murder rate in Dayton is 34.18 per 100,000.

4. Detroit, Michigan
The murder rate in Detroit is 41.45 per 100,000 residents.

3. Birmingham, Alabama
The murder rate in Birmingham is 50.62 per 100,000.

2. Baltimore, Maryland
The murder rate in Baltimore is 58.27 per 100,000.

1. St. Louis, Missouri
The murder rate in St. Louis is 64.54 per 100,000.

Amazingly, Chicago falls outside the top 10 with a murder rate of just over 18 per 100,000.

Remove the murders from just the top 10 murder cities in the country and the US moves to having one of the lower murder rates in the world. In other words, most of the US isn't very violent and has a lower murder rate than most of the rest of the world. Figure out what those 10 cities have in common and what's going on there, solve those issues, and you've essentially solved the problem. Unfortunately, politicians and well-meaning but naive twits consistently want to treat the symptoms, not the underlying problems.

Damn, I'm a bit surprised to see Dayton so high on the list. Nice going, Ohio! One of three states to have multiple entries in the Top 10. In my lifetime I've always been within a half hour of either Cleveland or Dayton. Lucky!

 

[Blazers46]

There's a balance in there, but neither Dems or Repubs want to meet in the middle. Dems want all or nothing. Repubs are afraid that if they give an inch, the next step with be asking for a foot, then a yard, etc. The 2nd amendment was written in a time when it made sense for citizens to bear arms. I'm still in favor of the 2nd amendment, but I can't justify to myself semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Having said that, I don't believe stricter gun laws is the total answer. Better background checks should help, but people that want a gun will find a way to get one. If they can't get a gun and are intent on doing harm like this idiot, they find another way like making a bomb.

On a side note, I think many people freak out because some rifles look like automatic weapons.

I agree there could for sure be a balance. I think they would be willing to meet in the middle if there was some trust but there isn't. They are just as divided as the people are, if not more. One could argue its by design to appease their bases or garner votes. Sometimes the people yelling fire are the ones that started it.

I think a lot of people making the argument against automatic weapons could be the same ones down the road wishing more citizens had them. I know if I am ever in a gun fight for my life or my families I am not hoping or wishing it to be a fair fight. Their 9mm v my 9mm, nope!! I am hoping if someone is crazy enough to try to victimize my family that I have enough rounds and a weapon that can unload the most amount of rounds possible in less time they can.

 

[drayer54]

There's a balance in there, but neither Dems or Repubs want to meet in the middle. Dems want all or nothing. Repubs are afraid that if they give an inch, the next step with be asking for a foot, then a yard, etc. The 2nd amendment was written in a time when it made sense for citizens to bear arms. I'm still in favor of the 2nd amendment, but I can't justify to myself semi-automatic or automatic weapons. Having said that, I don't believe stricter gun laws is the total answer. Better background checks should help, but people that want a gun will find a way to get one. If they can't get a gun and are intent on doing harm like this idiot, they find another way like making a bomb.

On a side note, I think many people freak out because some rifles look like automatic weapons.

Why would I give an inch to laws only designed to break the industry or make gun ownership so burdensome nobody does it? It’s an incremental approach to fundamentally ending the 2A. If gun control doesn’t work, why would I meet in the middle? Why would I flirt with surrendering freedom for perceived security? I’m not willing to sacrifice speech for less hurt feelings.

 

[Irish#1]

Why would I give an inch to laws only designed to break the industry or make gun ownership so burdensome nobody does it? It’s an incremental approach to fundamentally ending the 2A. If gun control doesn’t work, why would I meet in the middle? Why would I flirt with surrendering freedom for perceived security? I’m not willing to sacrifice speech for less hurt feelings.

Your response is just what I said. It's the classic response always given. What would be so burdensome of having a better background check? Having to wait a few extra days before you can pick up your gun? What's the justification for semi or automatic weapons? I don't think a ban on those weapons will break the industry. The government will still buy them. I've shot my share of guns and I did say I am still in favor of the 2nd Amendment. Outside of better background checks and a ban on semi and automatic weapons, I'm not in favor of changing the 2nd amendment anymore than that.

 

[goldandblue]

Your response is just what I said. It's the classic response always given. What would be so burdensome of having a better background check? Having to wait a few extra days before you can pick up your gun? What's the justification for semi or automatic weapons? I don't think a ban on those weapons will break the industry. The government will still buy them. I've shot my share of guns and I did say I am still in favor of the 2nd Amendment. Outside of better background checks and a ban on semi and automatic weapons, I'm not in favor of changing the 2nd amendment anymore than that.

There is no justification for automatic weapons. They are banned and are typically only in the hands of criminals. Semi automatic on the other hand, would be banning any pistol that wasn't a revolver. Any shotgun that is not pump action or breech load. Many hunting rifles are also semi-auto. I don't personally have a problem with requiring a maximum of 10 rd magazines or something to that affect for semi-auto weapons. But banning them all together would be terrible. The question to me is not the guns themselves. It's the crazies that get them. How do we keep that from happening?

 

[drayer54]

Your response is just what I said. It's the classic response always given. What would be so burdensome of having a better background check? Having to wait a few extra days before you can pick up your gun? What's the justification for semi or automatic weapons? I don't think a ban on those weapons will break the industry. The government will still buy them. I've shot my share of guns and I did say I am still in favor of the 2nd Amendment. Outside of better background checks and a ban on semi and automatic weapons, I'm not in favor of changing the 2nd amendment anymore than that.

I'm fine with background checks, but there's no reason to stall the purchase. It also complicates private transfers. Semi-automatics are a majority of the industry. Full auto's are regulated insanely and rare. Telling the industry that they will be ok because the government will buy them is also alarming to me. I would like to see the ammo/gun manufacturers isolate government sales to any state or municipality that imposes crazy gun control measures. There's no such thing as respecting the 2A and supporting a ban on semi-auto's. You would be banning >90% of the guns in circulation.

One thing that works to prevent and reduce crime- law enforcement.

 

[Blazers46]

I own automatic guns. When criminals stop carrying them I might consider it but probably still would probably own one. In my little world and my anecdotal life I am a victim of something often. I am building a house on the same property I am living on. Last night some rando came onto my property to try to steal tools and building material.... keep in mind my wife and 3 kid live on this property as well and were outside about 50 yards from where this was happening.

What would you do?

A. Nothing
B. Observe and report and hope the justice system prevails, keep in mind there are thousands of dollars of tools and thousands more in building material.... and judging by past experiences with the justice system nothing will happen even if the man is caught.
C. Kindly ask this man that you have never met what he is doing and just bring my smile and charm.
D. Do what I did and run over there with a gun on my hip and an automatic weapon because you don't know this man or what his intentions are or what he brought to the party or who else is in the truck......

*Edit - Cheat Sheet -
A. You do nothing you lose thousands of dollars of material and you will most likely be victimized again.
B. Pretty much the same as A.
C. Best case scenario is he runs away. Worst case scenario is you could die.
D. Best case scenario... well what happened was he took everything out of his truck and I got his license plate number. Judging by the look on his face and the smell of shit in air he probably won't be back.

I asked my son... "did we learn anything today" My son said "Gator don't take shit from nobody" I am still debating if my son being 10 feet behind during all this was a good idea but who cares. We are making memories.

 

[Irish#1]

There is no justification for automatic weapons. They are banned and are typically only in the hands of criminals. Semi automatic on the other hand, would be banning any pistol that wasn't a revolver. Any shotgun that is not pump action or breech load. Many hunting rifles are also semi-auto. I don't personally have a problem with requiring a maximum of 10 rd magazines or something to that affect for semi-auto weapons. But banning them all together would be terrible. The question to me is not the guns themselves. It's the crazies that get them. How do we keep that from happening?

It is the crazies for sure. If pistols that aren't revolvers are considered semi-automatic, then we should rewrite legislation allowing them. My reference is more toward semi-automatic rifles.

 

[Irish#1]

I'm fine with background checks, but there's no reason to stall the purchase. It also complicates private transfers. Semi-automatics are a majority of the industry. Full auto's are regulated insanely and rare. Telling the industry that they will be ok because the government will buy them is also alarming to me. I would like to see the ammo/gun manufacturers isolate government sales to any state or municipality that imposes crazy gun control measures. There's no such thing as respecting the 2A and supporting a ban on semi-auto's. You would be banning >90% of the guns in circulation.

One thing that works to prevent and reduce crime- law enforcement.

I wasn't aware that pistols are considered semi-automatic. I'm not in favor of banning them, thus this would solve a couple of your concerns. What happens when you hand the gun over and a few days later the background check shows they shouldn't be able to buy one?