American Sniper: "Pro-war bias?"

[woolybug25]

What's up with Wooly trying to get a 3-way going between Leppy, Buster, and himself?

Bukkake stained my carpet.

 

[irishog77]

Bukkake stained my carpet.

It ain't gay if it happened in a 3-way.

 

[DonnieNarco]

I can tell you obiously haven't been to war so I am going to try and tread lightly here. War is gruesome and horrific. A place where one instant you are chatting with a friend, and the next you are placing pressure on his chest because shrapnel from an IED ripped through his lung. You obviously have never held the hand of a dying friend who was supposed to return home in only a short months time and witness the birth of his daughter. You see, WAR IS BLACK AND WHITE, you either live or you die. It isn't the real world, and having a real world mentality will get yourself and your men killed. War is pretty simple, you either kill or be killed. Its all pretty self explanatory out there, and if you had been there you would have witnessed it for yourself. As far as what happens to an individuals mindset once in theater, thats another story. It takes a certain type of person to go towards the sound of gunfire. Not a crazy person, or someone with a death wish, but someone who has come to the realization that death is out of their control.

To be blunt, you should find it disturbing, because it is. The whole notion of going somewhere you know you may be killed and will have to kill someone is disturbing. What do think someone in this situations outlook should be? Should you not have a hate and disdain for your enemy? How would you go about controlling the rage that comes with seeing a friend die?

I only say these things to assure you by no means is Chris Kyle a bad person, and yes he was okay with killing people. He was okay with killing people because that was required of him, and it saved other servicemembers lives. I can tell you that he wanted to kill every single enemy combatant that posed a threat to our boys, because I felt the same when I was there. Having a protectors mindset, you don't enjoy the killing as much as knowing that that dirtbag can't take the life of anymore American's.

This is a good point. I see how it is black and white with living and dying. I just wish Kyle had a better outlook following the war. I wish he didn't make up the stories. I wish he could reflect back on his time and see that the Iraqis and Muslims weren't the bad guys. I think he suffered from severe PTSD and it clouded his judgment for a lot of things. In all, I do not think a book or movie should have come out.

 

[tussin]

On face value (not saying that Kyle was this, by any means), saying that a guy killed a bunch of people and justified it simply because he thought they were evil for no other reason other than their ____ religion, sounds pretty psychotic.

Agreed when you put it like that. I interpreted it as him thinking that only Al Qaeda militants were evil, not all Muslims.

 

[greyhammer90]

I can tell you obiously haven't been to war so I am going to try and tread lightly here. War is gruesome and horrific. A place where one instant you are chatting with a friend, and the next you are placing pressure on his chest because shrapnel from an IED ripped through his lung. You obviously have never held the hand of a dying friend who was supposed to return home in only a short months time and witness the birth of his daughter. You see, WAR IS BLACK AND WHITE, you either live or you die. It isn't the real world, and having a real world mentality will get yourself and your men killed. War is pretty simple, you either kill or be killed. Its all pretty self explanatory out there, and if you had been there you would have witnessed it for yourself. As far as what happens to an individuals mindset once in theater, thats another story. It takes a certain type of person to go towards the sound of gunfire. Not a crazy person, or someone with a death wish, but someone who has come to the realization that death is out of their control.

To be blunt, you should find it disturbing, because it is. The whole notion of going somewhere you know you may be killed and will have to kill someone is disturbing. What do think someone in this situations outlook should be? Should you not have a hate and disdain for your enemy? How would you go about controlling the rage that comes with seeing a friend die?

I only say these things to assure you by no means is Chris Kyle a bad person, and yes he was okay with killing people. He was okay with killing people because that was required of him, and it saved other servicemembers lives. I can tell you that he wanted to kill every single enemy combatant that posed a threat to our boys, because I felt the same when I was there. Having a protectors mindset, you don't enjoy the killing as much as knowing that that dirtbag can't take the life of anymore American's.

Good post, but this does nothing to show that Kyle was a good person either. I could make the same "protectors mindset" argument for every solider in every dictator's army or terrorists cell since the dawn of time.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Good post, but this does nothing to show that Kyle was a good person either. I could make the same "protectors mindset" argument for every solider in every dictator's army or terrorists cell since the dawn of time.

Pretty much every young soldier in a terrorist cell or dictator's army is just a young man who got wrapped up in something he doesn't understand. Their soldiers are not different from ours. It's just different powerful people telling them something. Whether they believe that America is perfect in every way and should never change, or they believe that they will be blessed in the afterlife if they take innocent lives, they are just acting under the commands of someone. Intrinsically evil armies come from Mordor, not Baghdad.

 

[tussin]

Pretty much every young soldier in a terrorist cell or dictator's army is just a young man who got wrapped up in something he doesn't understand. Their soldiers are not different from ours. It's just different powerful people telling them something. Whether they believe that America is perfect in every way and should never change, or they believe that they will be blessed in the afterlife if they take innocent lives, they are just acting under the commands of someone. Intrinsically evil armies come from Mordor, not Baghdad.

Being brainwashed is not an excuse for killing innocent people. Would you make that same argument for some spree shooters as well?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Good post, but this does nothing to show that Kyle was a good person either. I could make the same "protectors mindset" argument for every solider in every dictator's army or terrorists cell since the dawn of time.

This is why the whole "was Kyle good or bad" argument is kind of irrelevant. He was a human being with an exceptional skill set and an exceptional belief in the righteousness of his own actions. Whether that makes him good or bad depends almost entirely on what you think of the context of those actions, which requires thinking about the morality of the Iraq war. If it wasn't for Kyle, somebody else would have been behind the rifle- maybe slightly less efficient, maybe more or less judicious, but the end state would have been largely the same.

I know that if I were out on a patrol, I would have wanted a guy like Kyle providing overwatch.

 

[Bugzly21]

Definitely, the Iraq War wasn't one of them.

Actually it was. Maybe not for us but for the people of Iraq. I speak from personal experience of 3 tours and the people of Iraq were tortured and brutalized by Sadaam. Regardless of the intentions of being there, that SOB had to go. I saw a man that had both arms cut off at the elbow and one leg at the knee just because he was a Shitte. another man's whole right extremities were the width of an average wrist size from testing of chemicals on the people. 2nd tour I was up North by the Kurds and saw the travesties left over from Sadaam gassing them. Children with defects based off the lasting effects their parents went through. I can't tell you how many Iraqis personally said Thank You to us. So just because it wasn't freedom for us doesn't mean it didn't give them freedom and liberties that didn't have before.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Have you read his book or watched the movie? All he ever talked about was being a protector. In almost everyone of his interviews when asked about the number of kills he has, he makes specific statements in regards to that not mattering and the number of lives saved is what matters.

"The ideal thing would be if I knew the number of lives that I saved, because thats something I'd love to be known for." Chris Kyle

There is also no tangible evidence to show that Chris Kyle was a "bad person" either. If he is at fault for anything it is that he put things bluntly to the public, and didn't sugar coat how military members feel.

 

[greyhammer90]

This is why the whole "was Kyle good or bad" argument is kind of irrelevant. He was a human being with an exceptional skill set and an exceptional belief if the righteousness of his own actions. Whether that makes him good or bad depends almost entirely on what you think of the context of those actions, which requires thinking about the morality of the Iraq war. If it wasn't for Kyle, somebody else would have been behind the rifle- maybe slightly less efficient, maybe more or less judicious, but the end state would have been largely the same.

I know that if I were out on a patrol, I would have wanted a guy like Kyle providing overwatch.

This is pretty much where I am. He was a guy who was really good at what he did. What he did was kill people. You can glorify it or demonize it or ignore it at your pleasure.

In my mind he's a solider with one hell of a steady hand. That doesn't make him a hero to me, but that's just like, my opinion man.

 

[Bugzly21]

I guess then I am disrespecting one man. Not multiple servicemen. I'm not going to judge a literally army of men as a whole, based on the good or the bad of one person.

Disrespecting him is disrespecting all of us. More than likely, one way or another, all of us members have been in the same position as Kyle was. Caught having to make a decision between life or death, either for us or for them. If you think he's a murderer than I guess so am I.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I guess..



Stop making everything some pointless Right vs Left exercise.



Well you should have a problem with people who adamantly supported the Iraq War and threw their support behind it. Don't kid yourself, regardless of Gingrich leaving office in 1999 he was a twenty-year Congressman and former Speaker of the House. His voice mattered, and continues to matter, to the base and so using scare tactics and comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolf Hitler is nothing short of deplorable. So I'll ask again: how much appreciation should military families have for his comments?

It's not an exercise. It was a question to you: Are you ticked at Newt's 2003 comments because he has R behind his last name, or do you hold Hilary and Kerry just as accountable? Hell, why not more? They had power and voted for it. Newt was just a talking head on TV.

I'll answer again: I'm not going to speak for military families, but my guess is the soldiers don't really give a damn about the politicians so much as they want to do their jobs. Another guess is that the families want their loved ones to serve honorably and come home safe.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Actually it was. Maybe not for us

I stopped reading after this.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Being brainwashed is not an excuse for killing innocent people. Would you make that same argument for some spree shooters as well?

I'm saying that people are not good or bad. I'm saying that people are mostly the same.

 

[greyhammer90]

It's not an exercise. It was a question to you: Are you ticked at Newt's 2003 comments because he has R behind his last name, or do you hold Hilary and Kerry just as accountable? Hell, why not more? They had power and voted for it. Newt was just a talking head on TV.

I'll answer again: I'm not going to speak for military families, but my guess is the soldiers don't really give a damn about the politicians so much as they want to do their jobs. Another guess is that the families want their loved ones to serve honorably and come home safe.

If you think Buster is a democrat you haven't been paying much attention

 

[DonnieNarco]

Disrespecting him is disrespecting all of us. More than likely, one way or another, all of us members have been in the same position as Kyle was. Caught having to make a decision between life or death, either for us or for them. If you think he's a murderer than I guess so am I.

I have never used the word murder.

 

[DonnieNarco]

I haven't talked about Kyle's actions behind the rifle, really. I've talked about his justifications and his lies.

 

[Bugzly21]

I stopped reading after this.

You wouldn't because you're so bent on your ideals that you actually believe the crap you spew. Maybe read and get an actual perspective of people that lived it, instead of your furry couch, tv and internet perspective

 

[Buster Bluth]

It's not an exercise. It was a question to you: Are you ticked at Newt's 2003 comments because he has R behind his last name, or do you hold Hilary and Kerry just as accountable? Hell, why not more? They had power and voted for it.

I'm sorry, was Hilary Clinton in that article?

I'll play your stupid game. I loathe not only Hilary Clinton but Bill too. Both of them are genuine pieces of shit. John Kerry seriously sucks too. Happy?

Newt was just a talking head on TV.

You don't really understand how public opinions are formed do you?

I'll answer again: I'm not going to speak for military families, but my guess is the soldiers don't really give a damn about the politicians so much as they want to do their jobs. Another guess is that the families want their loved ones to serve honorably and come home safe.

The best way to come home safe is to not be sent in the first place.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I'm saying that people are not good or bad. I'm saying that people are mostly the same.

That's really deep. So then Chris Kyle wasn't bad? And the muslims who stormed the news outlet weren't bad? And Hitler wasn't bad? And our american military isn't bad? And the Pope isn't bad?

They are all mostly the same with a few differences of opinion. I like it. That is a worldview I can live with. Assuming this is what you meant, yes?

If people aren't good or bad, are there good and bad actions?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

If you think Buster is a democrat you haven't been paying much attention

It's clear he's not a Democrat. I just try to remind him sometimes to spread the blame around a bit.

 

[tussin]

That's really deep. So then Chris Kyle wasn't bad? And the muslims who stormed the news outlet weren't bad? And Hitler wasn't bad? And our american military isn't bad? And the Pope isn't bad?

They are all mostly the same with a few differences of opinion. I like it. That is a worldview I can live with. Assuming this is what you meant, yes?

If people aren't good or bad, are there good and bad actions?

We're all the same! It's all relative!

 

[kmoose]

Okay my bad, but some of those were from the book, as I mentioned. The Ventura and the WMD stories were from the book.

BOMBSHELL: New York Times Reports WMDs WERE Found in Iraq! - The Political Insider

You were saying?

 

[Irish#1]

I can tell you obiously haven't been to war so I am going to try and tread lightly here. War is gruesome and horrific. A place where one instant you are chatting with a friend, and the next you are placing pressure on his chest because shrapnel from an IED ripped through his lung. You obviously have never held the hand of a dying friend who was supposed to return home in only a short months time and witness the birth of his daughter. You see, WAR IS BLACK AND WHITE, you either live or you die. It isn't the real world, and having a real world mentality will get yourself and your men killed. War is pretty simple, you either kill or be killed. Its all pretty self explanatory out there, and if you had been there you would have witnessed it for yourself. As far as what happens to an individuals mindset once in theater, thats another story. It takes a certain type of person to go towards the sound of gunfire. Not a crazy person, or someone with a death wish, but someone who has come to the realization that death is out of their control.

To be blunt, you should find it disturbing, because it is. The whole notion of going somewhere you know you may be killed and will have to kill someone is disturbing. What do think someone in this situations outlook should be? Should you not have a hate and disdain for your enemy? How would you go about controlling the rage that comes with seeing a friend die?

I only say these things to assure you by no means is Chris Kyle a bad person, and yes he was okay with killing people. He was okay with killing people because that was required of him, and it saved other servicemembers lives. I can tell you that he wanted to kill every single enemy combatant that posed a threat to our boys, because I felt the same when I was there. Having a protectors mindset, you don't enjoy the killing as much as knowing that that dirtbag can't take the life of anymore American's.

Agree with Wooly, very insighful.

I stopped reading after this.

Perhaps you shouldn't have.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I'm sorry, was Hilary Clinton in that article?

I'll play your stupid game. I loathe not only Hilary Clinton but Bill too. Both of them are genuine pieces of shit. John Kerry seriously sucks too. Happy?



You don't really understand how public opinions are formed do you?



The best way to come home safe is to not be sent in the first place.

Yep. I know you're an independent but most of the time your criticisms of politicians here usually have an R behind their name. In the case of the Iraq War, it's fair to spread the blame around to all who supported it.

To be fair, I'd ship Hilary, Pelosi, Boehner, and McCain all to the same retirement home if I could.

 

[kmoose]

Good post, but this does nothing to show that Kyle was a good person either. I could make the same "protectors mindset" argument for every solider in every dictator's army or terrorists cell since the dawn of time.

But it does disprove that Kyle's actions automatically make him a demented sociopath, killing for fun or sport.

 

[IrishinSyria]

BOMBSHELL: New York Times Reports WMDs WERE Found in Iraq! - The Political Insider

You were saying?

The language used before the war always unambiguously referred to an active WMD program and focused on a nuclear threat. The fact that we dug up some old chemical weapons is not some sort of "checkmate libs" argument that validates the rhetoric used to sell our country and the world on war.

 

[Irishbounty28]

But it does disprove that Kyle's actions automatically make him a demented sociopath, killing for fun or sport.

Which is exactly how it was meant to be taken.

 

[Buster Bluth]

You wouldn't because you're so bent on your ideals that you actually believe the crap you spew. Maybe read and get an actual perspective of people that lived it, instead of your furry couch, tv and internet perspective

Ok chief you got me, I didn't stop reading. I just didn't care to type the response because you've admitted that it wasn't about our freedom. But whatever..

Actually it was. Maybe not for us but for the people of Iraq. I speak from personal experience of 3 tours and the people of Iraq were tortured and brutalized by Sadaam.

Do you want a list of all the bad guys in the world whom we can get rid of next? I mean come on, we invaded Iraq from a country that still stones people to death...

Regardless of the intentions of being there, that SOB had to go.

No, he didn't have to go. Your assertion is just plain false. We aren't marching all over Africa to rid them of murderous warlords. Why aren't we invading Mexico to give them some stability and eliminate their barbaric cartels? The list goes on and on and on and on and those people don't have to go regardless of their SOBness.

I saw a man that had both arms cut off at the elbow and one leg at the knee just because he was a Shitte.

It's better now, because ISIS is going out of their way to treat the Shia with respect.

another man's whole right extremities were the width of an average wrist size from testing of chemicals on the people.

Do you really think I'm unaware of what Saddam did? It's awful. SOB really doesn't begin to describe it.

But while we're here....how'd Saddam get those chemical weapons in the first place?

2nd tour I was up North by the Kurds and saw the travesties left over from Sadaam gassing them.

You're leaving out the part where we invaded Iraq in 1991 and during the peace deal we got the Kurds a No Fly Zone and other powers to achieve de facto independence from Saddam. He was not gassing them right up until we invaded again. That context is key.

Children with defects based off the lasting effects their parents went through. I can't tell you how many Iraqis personally said Thank You to us. So just because it wasn't freedom for us doesn't mean it didn't give them freedom and liberties that didn't have before.

Trillions of dollars and thousands of dead Americans...totally worth it! The Pro-Iranian government holding on to a fraction of the country while it undergoes another decade of civil war is just the ROI we needed!