Alton Sterling

wizards8507

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LOL.

So you really think that racial bias doesn't play a role in any of the incidents out there? Again I am not talking outright racism, but the fact that white people generally view black people as more aggressive and violent. Seriously?

I agree that it can't be applied to every situation but if you seriously believe that it plays no part in many of these types of incidents, well we are done.
See here's the thing, my worldview doesn't begin with the notion that all white people are racists until proven otherwise. I don't know a single human being who thinks "black people are more aggressive and violent." That thought has literally never crossed my mind so I've never thought to project it onto police officers. Maybe it says something about you and how you view black people if your starting point is that every cop must be prejudiced against black people because all white people are, so of course.

Yet, they somehow managed not to shoot and kill this guy. Novel concept, they successfully disarmed him without killing him. Weird.
Good on the Raleigh PD, no sarcasm. Yes, I believe in police restraint. But that does not mean that people need to cry "racism" every time a police officer doesn't exercise restraint.
 

IrishJayhawk

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See here's the thing, my worldview doesn't begin with the notion that all white people are racists until proven otherwise. I don't know a single human being who thinks "black people are more aggressive and violent." That thought has literally never crossed my mind so I've never thought to project it onto police officers. Maybe it says something about you and how you view black people if your starting point is that every cop must be prejudiced against black people because all white people are, so of course.


Good on the Raleigh PD, no sarcasm. Yes, I believe in police restraint. But that does not mean that people need to cry "racism" every time a police officer doesn't exercise restraint.

The point of implicit biases are that we don't always know we have them. That doesn't mean they don't exist. There are plenty of data on the topic. People judge the actors in scenarios when the researchers only change their race.

Study Reveals Americans' Subconscious Racial Biases - NBC News
 
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wizards8507

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The point of implicit biases are that we don't always know we have them. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
If your working premise is that it's somehow possible to be racist and not know that you're racist, then I see no point in continuing this conversation. Racism is an evil, hateful thing, not a subconscious itch of which you're not even aware.
 

pkt77242

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If your working premise is that it's somehow possible to be racist and not know that you're racist, then I see no point in continuing this conversation.

Are you kidding me?

Do you not know anything about implicit bias?
 

IrishJayhawk

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If your working premise is that it's somehow possible to be racist and not know that you're racist, then I see no point in continuing this conversation. Racism is an evil, hateful thing, not a subconscious itch of which you're not even aware.

See the edit to my post. That's not my speculation. And it doesn't mean that you're "racist," per se. But it affects how people act.
 

Wild Bill

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LOL.

So you really think that racial bias doesn't play a role in any of the incidents out there? Again I am not talking outright racism, but the fact that white people generally view black people as more aggressive and violent. Seriously?

I agree that it can't be applied to every situation but if you seriously believe that it plays no part in many of these types of incidents, well we are done.


ETA: Studies show that black children as young as 5 years old are view this way. If that isn't bias I don't know what is.

Interesting study.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/

But now a new study has found exactly the opposite: even with white officers who do have racial biases, officers are three times less likely to shoot unarmed black suspects than unarmed white suspects.

The Reverse Racism Effect - James - 2016 - Criminology & Public Policy - Wiley Online Library

This article reports the results of our most recent experiment, which tested 80 police patrol officers by applying this leading edge method. We found that, despite clear evidence of implicit bias against Black suspects, officers were slower to shoot armed Black suspects than armed White suspects, and they were less likely to shoot unarmed Black suspects than unarmed White suspects. These findings challenge the assumption that implicit racial bias affects police behavior in deadly encounters with Black suspects,
 

wizards8507

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Are you kidding me?

Do you not know anything about implicit bias?
I understand what implicit bias is, and it's horseshit. I happen to believe in free will. We're rational beings, not computer programs subject to some underlying source code.
 

IrishJayhawk

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pkt77242

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I think that the first study makes sense with what has happened lately. I think that many cops have become slightly gun shy about shooting black people and many take an extra second or two to take in the situation. They study also shows that the officers were more likely to experience a greater threat response from black suspects (implicit bias). I think that the study makes complete sense considering the bad press that comes with shooting an unarmed black person (even before 2014). Also the fact that 96% of officers in the study showed an implicit racial bias is somewhat scary.
 

Irish Insanity

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I understand what implicit bias is, and it's horseshit. I happen to believe in free will. We're rational beings, not computer programs subject to some underlying source code.
Judging by the 2 recent shootings and their videos, not all of us are rational beings. And some want to rationalize what shouldn't be.
 

wizards8507

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Guessing Wiz doesn't believe in institutional/systemic racism either...?
"Shouting 'institutional racism' does not actually combat racism. You have to find individual instances and you have to show me who the racists are so we can fight them together. I hate racism. I think it's evil. But if you're just going to say 'institutional racism' every time something bad happens, there's no way to fight it. I need a policy that you're proposing, or I need a person who's actually racist so we can fight it together, or we can determine whether the policy is good. What I find really problematic is the virtue signalling that I see by so many people on the other side which is, 'I don't have to give you the racist, I don't have to tell you who he is or what measures I'm proposing, I just say "institutional racism," everybody cheers for me because that's an approved point of view, and now we move on with our lives.' You haven't helped anybody, you've just made yourself feel better."

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8yDHK0x2j80" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

IrishJayhawk

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"Shouting 'institutional racism' does not actually combat racism. You have to find individual instances and you have to show me who the racists are so we can fight them together. I hate racism. I think it's evil. But if you're just going to say 'institutional racism' every time something bad happens, there's no way to fight it. I need a policy that you're proposing, or I need a person who's actually racist so we can fight it together, or we can determine whether the policy is good. What I find really problematic is the virtue signalling that I see by so many people on the other side which is, 'I don't have to give you the racist, I don't have to tell you who he is or what measures I'm proposing, I just say "institutional racism," everybody cheers for me because that's an approved point of view, and now we move on with our lives.' You haven't helped anybody, you've just made yourself feel better."

No, but people can go through training to address implicit biases. I know of search committees who are required to do so in order to serve.
 
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Anyone who paid attention in their concealed carry class knows you DO NOT reach for your driver's license when you're pulled over by the police. You put both hands firmly on the wheel and don't move a muscle until the officer is fully informed that you have a firearm and where it's located. Then you follow his instructions exactly. We don't know shit about what happened prior to the shooting and the only "testimony" we have is from the victim's girlfriend.

And if you don't do exactly that it's a death sentence. That's not good enough for the land of the free.

I'd honestly like to see some research on where deaths are most likely to occur while having a legal weapon, self-inflicted, police, and an actual confrontaton.

Some of your authoritarian posts on this thread boggle my mind considering your usual Libertarian background.
 

wizards8507

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Some of your authoritarian posts on this thread boggle my mind considering your usual Libertarian background.
I'm a libertarian, not a goddamn anarchist. I believe in the Rule of Law. I think marijuana should be legal, for example. But so long as its not, I expect police officers, judges, juries, and citizens to obey the laws that are on the books. There's nothing anti-libertarian to expect armed suspects to behave smartly when they're confronted by law enforcement.
 

pkt77242

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I'm a libertarian, not a goddamn anarchist. I believe in the Rule of Law. I think marijuana should be legal, for example. But so long as its not, I expect police officers, judges, juries, and citizens to obey the laws that are on the books. There's nothing anti-libertarian to expect armed suspects to behave smartly when they're confronted by law enforcement.

Except that you have no proof that the suspect in Minnesota behaved poorly when confronted by the police officer. Care to explain your feelings about this incident in light of that?
 

wizards8507

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Except that you have no proof that the suspect in Minnesota behaved poorly when confronted by the police officer. Care to explain your feelings about this incident in light of that?
I have no opinion on the Minnesota case right now because there's not enough evidence one way or the other. Me saying "don't jump to conclusions about the officer's guilt" is not the same as proclaiming "the officer is innocent," which I'm not saying.
 

GoIrish41

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Falcon Heights just honestly bothers me so much that I literally did not sleep last night. I saw it right before going to bed and just could not fall asleep afterwards... instead stayed up reading and thinking and doing some design work until the morning.

Here's my thing... Alton Sterling, while unjust, is not the kind of person I lose sleep over. I just don't, not with that record. I don't really care if a pedophile, domestic abuser, druggie, gang member carrying an illegal firearm dies in some strange confluence of circumstance. Maybe that's a flaw in my humanity... but we need gun control to protect us from felons like Alton Sterling who illegally carry hand guns. So... whatever. If he wasn't illegally carrying a firearm I'm pretty sure he'd still be alive, don't you?

But in Minnesota that man was a law abiding citizen. He pulled his car over immediately. He told the officer up front that he had a weapon... a LEGAL weapon. He tried to do everything right. And he still got killed. That's just so fucked up. I don't mean to get overly emotional on the internet but his death is not only an injustice, it's a tragedy. And it makes me really sad, and really disappointed. This kind of shit is tearing the country apart.

Both situations bother me. I understand the sentiment of not losing sleep over someone who has had a highly checkered past and losing sleep over a guy who didn't. But this isn't a scenario in which we are lost at sea on a raft and we have to choose one person to toss overboard or we'll all perish. We don't have to choose either. Indeed, I'd argue that we should not make any such distinctions, no matter how sympathetic we might be by one's history over the other.

We are a country of laws, and when those laws are not applied evenly, we fail as a society to live up to our ideals. We see the same kind of garbage throughout our politics today, and everyone complains vehemently about it -- as well they should. To me, the comparison of these two incidents is about the application of law, not the victims. If we shrug one incident off because we don't like the past behavior of one of the men who was killed by police, we do a disservice to the concept of equal protection. And if we don't have that, where does that leave us? Identifying certain groups who are above the law, and others who deserve harsher administration of law? That can't lead to a good place.

I am not making any judgement your "humanity," but the way I see it is that indifference to one person who was unjustly killed will make it easier to shrug off the next incident, and the next. And if it mostly happens to people who we don't really care about, it becomes normal ... even accepted. I see it as a significant factor that contributes to, as you put it, the "kind of shit that is tearing this country apart." We must fight the impulse to ever accept that this sort of thing is no big deal in any case. We should care deeply about both -- not because they were both upright, model citizens, but because they are both citizens, period. What happened to these men is tragic and terrible, and what it says about our society that this sort of thing happens with such frequency is just as tragic and terrible.
 
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wizards8507

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Both situations bother me. I understand the sentiment of not losing sleep over someone who has had a highly checkered past and losing sleep over a guy who didn't. But this isn't a scenario in which we are lost at sea on a raft and we have to choose one person to toss overboard or we'll all perish. We don't have to choose either. Indeed, I'd argue that we should not make any such distinctions, no matter how sympathetic we might be by one's history over the other.

We are a country of laws, and when those laws are not applied evenly, we fail as a society to live up to our ideals. We see the same kind of garbage throughout our politics today, and everyone complains vehemently about it -- as well they should. To me, the comparison of these two incidents is about the application of law, not the victims. If we shrug one incident off because we don't like the past behavior of one of the men who was killed by police, we do a disservice to the concept of equal protection. And if we don't have that, where does that leave us? Identifying certain groups who are above the law, and others who deserve harsher administration of law? That can't lead to a good place.

I am not making any judgement your "humanity," but the way I see it is that indifference to one person who was unjustly killed will make it easier to shrug off the next incident, and the next. And if it mostly happens to people who we don't really care about, it becomes normal ... even accepted. I see it as a significant factor that contributes to, as you put it, the "kind of shit that is tearing this country apart."

We should care deeply about both -- not because they were both upright, model citizens, but because they are both citizens, period. What happened to these men is tragic and terrible, and what it says about our society that this sort of thing happens with such frequency is just as tragic and terrible.
Is anyone making that argument? I haven't seen anybody say "Sterling was unjustly killed and I'm okay with that." I think the much more prevalent sentiment is "let's wait to determine whether he was or was not unjustly killed before we jump to any conclusions."

People forget that the the police are not just enforcers of the law. They're also subject to civil rights and due process of law. Just like we want Alton Sterling to have been presumed innocent until proven guilty for threatening people with his firearm, the officers involved are also innocent until proven guilty for murdering him.
 

GoIrish41

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Is anyone making that argument? I haven't seen anybody say "Sterling was unjustly killed and I'm okay with that." I think the much more prevalent sentiment is "let's wait to determine whether he was or was not unjustly killed before we jump to any conclusions."

People forget that the the police are not just enforcers of the law. They're also subject to civil rights and due process of law. Just like we want Alton Sterling to have been presumed innocent until proven guilty for threatening people with his firearm, the officers involved are also innocent until proven guilty for murdering him.

I was commenting on Lax's post about being up all night thinking about the Minnesota shooting, but wouldn't lose any sleep over a guy like Sterling who had a prickly past. That's why I quoted his post. I purposely didn't respond to more crass posts such as "Don't be a criminal and the police won't shoot you." especially after the Minnesota incident showcased how wrong a statement can be in some instances.

I'm also not making any condemnations about the cops or suggesting we abandon due process for them.
 
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tussin

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It will be interesting to see the outcome of the Minnesota case. Of all the high-profile police shootings, this appears to be the one that casts the most doubt on the officer.

Regarding the Sterling case, I'm pretty confident that officers will be found innocent of all wrong-doing. Do I believe that the officer panicked and simply shot the guy? Yes. But there is an opposing narrative that Sterling reached for a gun and the officer thought his life was in danger, so that can't be ignored.
 

wizards8507

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It will be interesting to see the outcome of the Minnesota case. Of all the high-profile police shootings, this appears to be the one that casts the most doubt on the officer.
The story sounds the most egregious, but is there any evidence?

Regarding the Sterling case, I'm pretty confident that officers will be found innocent of all wrong-doing. Do I believe that the officer panicked and simply shot the guy? Yes. But there is an opposing narrative that Sterling reached for a gun and the officer thought his life was in danger, so that can't be ignored.
I agree.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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There's nothing anti-libertarian to expect armed suspects to behave smartly when they're confronted by law enforcement.

Other than the fact that a suspect is determined by the very same government Libertarians love to criticize at every turn. Libertarians should be defending the innocent until proven guilty aspect here, in my view, and hear out the people who suggest that there is a willingness among police officers to escalate situations too brazenly and it's resulting in too maybe questionable deaths particularly among black men.
 

pumpdog20

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It's all relevant, sorry you completely misunderstood what I said and apparently don't care to comprehend the follow up.

The TLDR is that I don't care if the officer thought he was "reaching for his gun" because that's not a threat. A threat is actually possessing the fire arm which he can't do unless he put his hand in his pocket.

In what universe is a guy reaching for his gun not a threat? Oh, yours apparently. Sorry you don't comprehend real life. I didn't follow up because I'm not arguing whether or not Sterling was in fact reaching, I simply commented on the fact that you wouldn't care if he was. That's what didn't make sense to me. You then tried to turn it to a conversation about this specific case.
 

wizards8507

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Other than the fact that a suspect is determined by the very same government Libertarians love to criticize at every turn.
99% of my beef is with the federal government, so that doesn't really apply to local law enforcement.

Libertarians should be defending the innocent until proven guilty aspect here, in my view...
I am. The police officers are innocent until proven guilty.

...and hear out the people who suggest that there is a willingness among police officers to escalate situations too brazenly and it's resulting in too maybe questionable deaths...
I agree.

...particularly among black men.
As Wild Bill pointed out (I think it was Wild Bill), this is a false narrative. Statistics show that black suspects are significantly less likely to be shot by police.
 

pkt77242

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99% of my beef is with the federal government, so that doesn't really apply to local law enforcement.


I am. The police officers are innocent until proven guilty.


I agree.


As Wild Bill pointed out (I think it was Wild Bill), this is a false narrative. Statistics show that black suspects are significantly less likely to be shot by police.

I can't point out some stats that directly contradict that though.
Race remains the most volatile flash point in any accounting of police shootings. Although black men make up only 6 percent of the U.S. population, they account for 40 percent of the unarmed men shot to death by police this year, The Post’s database shows. In the majority of cases in which police shot and killed a person who had attacked someone with a weapon or brandished a gun, the person who was shot was white. But a hugely disproportionate number — 3 in 5 — of those killed after exhibiting less threatening behavior were black or Hispanic.

6% of the population but 40% of the unarmed men shot to death by police.
Police fatally shoot nearly 1,000 people in 2016 | The Washington Post
 

pkt77242

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heres-what-we-know-about-race-and-killings-by-pol-2-8591-1449540992-0_big.jpg


Seems a little off considering there is significantly more white people than black people.
 

wizards8507

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I can't point out some stats that directly contradict that though.

6% of the population but 40% of the unarmed men shot to death by police.

Police fatally shoot nearly 1,000 people in 2016 | The Washington Post
The population isn't a very good proxy in this case. Total population is irrelevant if a specific demographic subset of that population commits more crime and has a higher number of encounters with police.

It's like saying "accounting majors are only 2% of the population but make up 90% of the hiring from accounting firms." No shit.
 

Domina Nostra

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Here's what I don't understand. I get that you don't shoot for the legs when someone is running at you with a crow bar because you could miss.

Police are risking their necks, and society has agreed that they get to kill you if they feel threatened.

Fine.

But why is there no way to stop a guy going for a gun in his pocket short of killing the guy, when he is already on the ground and there are two of you on top of him?

Why is there no training on breaking the guys hand or wrist or something? Why is there no short range weapon other than the gun?

Seems like there has to be a better way.
 
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