AL EAST

[nd1]

This actually did make me feel better. Thanks for reminding me that many Yankee fans are illiterate a-holes.

Also, why do you guys keep bringing up "the media said the Red Sox were the best team in baseball" when talking **** to Sox fans? You are aware that we aren't the media, correct?

see there you go rhode. You and I had good discussion going earlier but remember when I told you that no matter what fan base it is you can not lump all them in there together. Always good fans and always bad fans from every team. Just got tired of hearing autry talk 2004 and like sox fans get tired of hearing the numerous times the yanks sent them home.


Ok got to go to my little boys football game I hope we can have a discussion tomorrow. c-ya

 

[irishog77]

Decades from now, when the Yankees have another 27 or titles, you keep reminding yourself about 2004, Boston fans.

And as far as an AL East media bias goes-- well, NY is the BIGGEST and, by far, the WINNINGEST city in baseball. So obviously, covering the best team in the biggest market makes a little sense. Boston, on the other hand, is the merely beneficiary of being the hometown team of a biased, soulless, and socialist network that incorrectly claims itself as "the world wide leader."

 

[Rhode Irish]

see there you go rhode. You and I had good discussion going earlier but remember when I told you that no matter what fan base it is you can not lump all them in there together. Always good fans and always bad fans from every team. Just got tired of hearing autry talk 2004 and like sox fans get tired of hearing the numerous times the yanks sent them home.


Ok got to go to my little boys football game I hope we can have a discussion tomorrow. c-ya

Ok I should do a better job distinguishing when I'm being serious and when I'm busting chops. You took a shot so I took a shot, but no animosity there. Like I've said, have lived with Yankee fans and I'll have one or two of them in my wedding.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Decades from now, when the Yankees have another 27 or titles, you keep reminding yourself about 2004, Boston fans.

And as far as an AL East media bias goes-- well, NY is the BIGGEST and, by far, the WINNINGEST city in baseball. So obviously, covering the best team in the biggest market makes a little sense. Boston, on the other hand, is the merely beneficiary of being the hometown team of a biased, soulless, and socialist network that incorrectly claims itself as "the world wide leader."

ESPN is in Bristol, CT. It's closer to NYC than Boston.

 

[irishog77]

ESPN is in Bristol, CT. It's closer to NYC than Boston.

But filled with former Boston and New England newspaper guys, homers, and general hacks.

 

[Rhode Irish]

But filled with former Boston and New England newspaper guys, homers, and general hacks.

I'm the last guy to defend ESPN. There are a million things to hate about it, but your criticism is off base. If it has any bias, it's a NY bias.

 

[autry_denson]

I'll shut up about '04, just let me make one more comment: I watched the "4 Days in October" DVD tonight, and I feel a whole lot better. I do have a pretty good idea that Yanks fans understand why that series is so important, but I've gotta stop trying to get them to admit it. I wouldn't admit it either if I were in your shoes. But Rhode Irish knows exactly what I mean, and I'm sure we get the same feeling when we watch that clip of Roberts. That's sufficient for me.

Good trading barbs with you guys, I'll watch w interest in the hopes that Verlander can shut you down...

 

[BGIF]

This is the thing that will annoy me the most about this year's collapse by the Sox - dealing with insecure, mean-spirited Yankees fans.

Yankee fans who have, over time, built their identity around cheering for a team that has an enormous built-in advantage over the rest of the league and has, as a consequence, won consistently. Then it all ended in 2004, when they completed what is still the greatest choke of all time over 4 consecutive games. All of the sudden the confidence became complete insecurity, Yankee fans started pointing out how many championships they'd won instead of acknowledging that they just carried out the greatest choke of all time while witnessing the greatest comeback of all time, and the claims that "we never cared" about the Red Sox started floating around as the most transparent defense mechanism imaginable.

Buddy, we know that you love seeing the Red Sox lose, and we know that you feel better by trying to rub salt in our wounds. We know, also, that this was a horrific, historic, disastrous collapse by our team. It sickens all of us. You're not going to make us feel worse by saying that the Red Sox don't matter. You're also never going to regain your pre-2004 confidence and arrogance by insulting Sox fans. If you win 40 titles, you're never going to be able to make up for what happened - and if we collapse consistently for the next ten years, we'll still have those four days in October of '04.

I feel terrible today - but I've still got those DVDs reminding me of the greatest sports event of my lifetime.

Autrey, you're leading with your chin!

The Yankees are the only team to go up 3-0 zip and lose to an inspired team in a short series. When you're hot your hot and when your not your not. See Bucky Dent, Aaron Boone, ... Bill Buckner.

In '49 the Sox were in First by a game with 2 to go. All they needed was one win. Didn't happen.

In '78 the Sox led NY by 14 in mid July. In 6 weeks NY whittled that down to a 4 game lead as they opened a 4 game set in Fenway. Yanks won all 4 by a score of by an average score of 10-2. It became known as the "Boston Massacre". Two weeks later NY had a 3 game lead but the Sox caught them with a 8 game win streak. One game playoff - google Bucky Dent.

In 2003 NY had a 3 game lead and then lost 4 games in a row. The Sox gave an Olympic Gold Medal performance in 2 extra inning games and the Sock Game. In 2011 there was no Gold Medal performance, the Sox owned the Yankees all year but crumpled against the cellar dwelling Orioles among others.

In September the Sox opened with a loss to NY at Fenway
Lost 2 of 3 to Texas at Fenway
Lost 3 of 4 to Toronto
Lost 3 games set to TB
Won 1 and lost 1 at Toronto
Lost 3 of 4 to TB at Fenway
Lost 3 of 4 to Baltimore at Fenway
Lost 2 of 3 to NY
Lost 2 of 3 to last place Baltimore

Boston set the record for ineptness blowing a 9 game lead. "Never been done before," I read.

Boston didn't just lose 4 games like NY did in '04, Boston lost 20 games in 4 weeks. An average of 5 games a week - for 4 weeks.

IF Boston had only lost 19 games you'd be in the playoffs.

IF Boston had only dropped 4 of 7 to the Orioles you'd be in the playoffs.

IF Scutaro hadn't hesitated ...

Enjoy your dvds.

 

[autry_denson]

Thanks for the reminders BGIF! You forgot '86, the worst of them all - I was 9 years old and remember being half asleep, watching my older brothers and dad screaming at the TV and thinking to myself: "Wait a second, they were just about to win..."

I get it, you're right. I remember everything since '86, and was told all about 1978 and 1975, and even '49 from brothers, dad, uncles, etc. That's why KPENN' s claims that Yankees fans don't remember 2004 is so hilariously absurd to me - if you are a true fan of the Yankees, you don't forget what happened to your team in 2004, you don't forget what happened against Arizona, etc.

I understand that you guys have dozens of arguments as to why you're the better team - most of them are hard to dispute. And I accept the mocking about reverting back to the 2004 retort - but I'll be perfectly honest, I'm not exaggerating when I say 2004 was enough - it trumps everything else.

S h i t, I keep saying I'll move on from this but keep getting drawn back in...

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Red Sox had 4 times the payroll of the Rays. LOL!

 

[autry_denson]

Red Sox had 4 times the payroll of the Rays. LOL!

by the way, the rays fans (all 20 of them) are the ones that should really be chirping. maddon was talking about them going to the playoffs when they were still 7 games down with 20 or so to go. absolutely incredible job of managing a baseball club, and their comeback last night was one for the ages. I can see Rays fans playing a tape of that game in 8 or 9 years and smiling.

The Sox and Rays have had some bad blood for several years now, dating back to when the Rays were in last place year after year - so I'm not outright pulling for them to win, but I respect that group of guys and their manager more than any of the other teams still alive in the AL.

 

[arndtjc]

Yeah baby! Its just so funny that the Red Sox fans hate the Rays, when they have $180 million in payroll, and the $40 million in payroll team beats them out of the Wildcard. I love being hated, it hasn't happened very often

 

[Rhode Irish]

Yeah baby! Its just so funny that the Red Sox fans hate the Rays, when they have $180 million in payroll, and the $40 million in payroll team beats them out of the Wildcard. I love being hated, it hasn't happened very often

Nobody "hates" the Rays. Actually, I really like the Rays and am very happy for them. If it can't be us, I'm glad its the Rays. I'm rooting for them to win the whole thing. I love Longo, but I've always loved the Rays. I played AAU basketball with Rocco Baldelli when we were in high school in Rhode Island (he was a legit basketball talent, as well).

Not sure where this "Sox fans hate the Rays..." thing came from, but it isn't based in reality. Sorry to ruin your enjoyment of the hate.

 

[arndtjc]

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/10790-i-****ing-hate-tampa-bay.html

That's where I got it from. Sorry it wasn't you that felt that way, I have only come across a couple Sox fans that have been respectable about the collapse and saying the Rays don't deserve it, blah blah blah.

Thats cool about Baldelli, he was fun to watch play back in the day, even though they were just awful then. But finally our time has come and we are up there with the Yankees and Boston, I can honestly say I never saw them having success after the early years, and I definitely didn't expect it to come in the first 15 years!

 

[Rhode Irish]

Not to be a broken record about this, but there is an element of Red Sox fans out there (the Sullies & Murphs, the pink hats, the people with "Red Sox Nation" cards in their wallets, the people that go to games at Fenway and do the "wave" - the most despicable practice in fandom - during innings) that are a complete embarrassment to the other 90% of Sox fans, who are just baseball fans that happened to grow up in New England rooting for a hapless franchise because our fathers and grandfathers taught us to.

Fortunately, they have become a little less hapless over the last decade (until the last month, anyway). Unfortunately, its the above-referenced idiots that call talk radio, hang out in website comment sections, and, apparently, post on talksox.com, which I have never even heard of before.

 

[BGIF]

Interesting piece ESPN did on the Red Sox after the Pitt game. I guessed the recordings were from Boston talk radio. I thought the fan calling Crawford gutless when the ball popped out of his glove on a sliding catch was - gutless.

"Dead Sox"

Who's to blame:
Francona
Epstein
Players
All of the above

Shilling was unequivical - the players. Kruk concurred.

If the Red Sox owners are typical owners, Francona will get the blame. They can't fire the players and Epstein bought the best talent that was available.

ESPN said they had a poll of the above on their website, I didn't find it.

I did find the "Which Team Had The Worst Collapse" poll on ESPN.
'11 Sox with 66% of 55,000 votes over
'11 Braves 12%
'07 Mets 12%
'78 Sox 6%
'64 Phillies 5%

 

[NDinFL]

No offense meant...

Love the last 4 pages of this thread... (I despise most New England sports teams)

Rhode, you do your Sox proud though, and have represented them well.

I tend to agree with ACamp's take on the fanbase of New England sports though...

I'd bet money that card holding members of "sawx" nation tripled after 2004.

Not to discredit the diehards!

The same goes with the Pats...

I openly wonder if you were to ask a random Pats fan who their starting QB(s) were in the 85 superbowl.. If they'd know.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Interesting piece ESPN did on the Red Sox after the Pitt game. I guessed the recordings were from Boston talk radio. I thought the fan calling Crawford gutless when the ball popped out of his glove on a sliding catch was - gutless.

"Dead Sox"

Who's to blame:
Francona
Epstein
Players
All of the above

Shilling was unequivical - the players. Kruk concurred.

If the Red Sox owners are typical owners, Francona will get the blame. They can't fire the players and Epstein bought the best talent that was available.

ESPN said they had a poll of the above on their website, I didn't find it.

I did find the "Which Team Had The Worst Collapse" poll on ESPN.
'11 Sox with 66% of 55,000 votes over
'11 Braves 12%
'07 Mets 12%
'78 Sox 6%
'64 Phillies 5%

That guy is definitely gutless, but it wasn't a caller. It was Gerry Callahan, who is the right-wing radical morning drive talk show host on WEEI, the Boston equivalent to WFAN in New York. The rest of that clip was mainly callers, although I believe Schilling's appearance on EEI today was mixed in there, as well as possibly one other "expert guest," but I can't remember who that was.

And the clips of the callers were embarrassing. Of course, they found the 6 or 7 most absurd calls from an entire days worth and made it seem like that was a representative sample (typical ESPN). I listened much of the day today, and most fans were not that hysterical. That isn't to say that people weren't upset, and like I have been saying the type of fans that call the radio stations are embarrassing anyway, even if they are only 3% of the fan base. Many of the callers were blaming the GM rather than the players, which I strongly disagree with, so I was glad to see the responses to ESPN's poll overwhelmingly placed the blame on the players and not Theo.

Looks like Tito will not be back. He might be the best manager in the long history of the franchise, at least based on results, and I genuinely like the guy and don't think this was totally his fault. Having said that, though, its been eight seasons. That is a lot, and considering the way this season ended I'm now convinced it is probably the right time to move on.

NDinFL, thanks for the shoutout. I'm trying to put our best foot forward here - looks like our image could use a bit of rehab.

 

[arndtjc]

Well at least Chicago (either the other Sox or the Cubs) might be getting a new manager/gm in the near fututre...

I don't think Francona deserves to get the hook on this one, it is really the players fault. That lineup he put out there is one of the most talented teams to ever be out on an MLB baseball field. The rotation however, was just GOD AWFUL down the stretch, when they were BREEZING into the post season. Theo should shoulder this one because he gave Carl Crawford a $140 million contract, when he played like he should have gotten no more than $500k. He should have picked up another free agent pitcher in the off season, or trade for one.

That being said, only one day after, it is ALL about the Red Sox collapse, but nothing about the Rays...hmmmmm???

 

[nd1]

reported on 680 the fan here in atl that tery francona will not return as manager. sad because he is a good manager and doesn't deserve to get this because the players didn't do the job.

 

[arndtjc]

reported on 680 the fan here in atl that tery francona will not return as manager. sad because he is a good manager and doesn't deserve to get this because the players didn't do the job.

Agreed, the guy wins two championships, and throws out a line up that should have won 105 games, and the players start playing like crap in the most important month, he should not be given the gate, but the time is right considering his contract was up. As long as they don't snatch up Joe Maddon from my Rays, I don't really care who they get, because there aren't many big names on the free agent list right now...

 

[Rhode Irish]

Its more about changing the culture than a referendum on his performance. Eight years is a long time in baseball. Its time to mix it up a little. I love Tito, but even he isn't upset that he's leaving, so how can I be?

 

[nd1]

rhode there's talk of theo and francona going to the cubs. that would be a great get for the cubs because they know what they are doing.

 

[Zibby32]

This will be the end of a working relationship between Theo and Tito. I dont exactly think they see eye to eye on some issues.

Not that there is bad blood. Tito will end up a White Sock and Theo will remain, his mess to fix!

 

[nd1]

his mess to fix. he put one the best teams in baseball on the field. how is he surposed to know that one of your best hitters (youlk) would get hurt and not be there and that the key pitchers would get hurt, beckett and lester not show up when it counts. I mean he put a really good team together and at some point the players have to produce and step it up.

 

[Ironman8]

If Tito doesn't return to the Sox, the other Sox (White) are an interesting potential destination. He used to manage their minor league affliate for a few years (when Jordan was on the team), and would probably be a welcome change to the antics of Ozzie for the fan base and GM.

 

[nd1]

there will probably be a few teams interested in him. he a good coach.

iron tonight is it. the playoffs start and the yanks need to show up. they need to work the count and get verlanders pitch count up and get him out of there early on.

 

[nd1]

Boston Red Sox, Terry Francona could part ways - ESPN Boston

 

[Ironman8]

there will probably be a few teams interested in him. he a good coach.

iron tonight is it. the playoffs start and the yanks need to show up. they need to work the count and get verlanders pitch count up and get him out of there early on.

Let's hope we can implement that game plan, and make it a battle of the bullpens.

 

[Rhode Irish]

As far as bullpens go, Valverde did not blow a save this season but he is really shaky. He's due to blow one. I could see his first BS coming in Yankee stadium. Similar to the 1999 NFC Championship game, when Gary Anderson was perfect the whole season, then missed that kick to go to the Super Bowl.