2018-2019 Notre Dame Men's Basketball

[FightingIrishLover7]

I definitely disagree that this team will be bad next year.

As stated, the entire roster is coming back and a ton of players who had no previous experience, not just in Brey's system, but in CBB in general, will have it now.

I think this team should at least be on the bubble, middle of the pack ACC team with somewhere in the realm of 8-11 ACC wins. A lot of it depends on, well of course health, but also somebody stepping up and becoming the main guy on offense. Hubb has shown promise in running the point despite being thrown to the wolves and being underweight. Gibbs has stepped it up a bit the last few games. Harvey has shown terrific upside, but he needs to learn to play within the system. Laz shows terrific range, but he needs to gain at least 20 pounds. Maybe Carmody comes back from injury and surprises. I thought he'd be the guy to emerge on offense.

Brey's gonna have to find a way to get the most of the rotation. If that means playing more bodies, which he isn't used to, so be it.

One of the most level headed, long term looking posts I've seen.

Some people seem to forget that Robby was in the starting rotation, and was proving to be the most college ready player.

So, essentially, we have lost 3 starters since the beginning of the season. Not many teams can survive that, especially on a gap season.

It sucks to watch, but it is what it is. Brey has a proven track record. We have to give it time. It would be a lot scarier if we were in an "Archie situation" where we don't have enough data to support the same conclusion, necessarily.

 

[RDU Irish]

Coach K can't compete without his paid for NBA lottery pick - I think Brey deserves a LOT more slack than he has been given.

Some folks saying this is the worst ND team ever - c'mon John MacLeod was sub .500 over 8 years with TWO 9-18 seasons. That shitshow was barely D1 basketball for close to a decade.

How can we not be excited about building around Mooney and Durham in the paint? Do we really think none of these frosh can shoot? They were supposed to be bringing in long range reinforcements and have fallen flat. People really think there is no talent there though? These guys are just a bit over their head in the most competitive league in CBB. And I don't care what people say, Pflueger is a straight up winner who makes those around him better. His return will be a much needed dose of glue and seasoning.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Coach K can't compete without his paid for NBA lottery pick - I think Brey deserves a LOT more slack than he has been given.

Some folks saying this is the worst ND team ever - c'mon John MacLeod was sub .500 over 8 years with TWO 9-18 seasons. That shitshow was barely D1 basketball for close to a decade.

How can we not be excited about building around Mooney and Durham in the paint? Do we really think none of these frosh can shoot? They were supposed to be bringing in long range reinforcements and have fallen flat. People really think there is no talent there though? These guys are just a bit over their head in the most competitive league in CBB. And I don't care what people say, Pflueger is a straight up winner who makes those around him better. His return will be a much needed dose of glue and seasoning.

All of this. +1

 

[Crazy Balki]

Coach K can't compete without his paid for NBA lottery pick - I think Brey deserves a LOT more slack than he has been given.

Some folks saying this is the worst ND team ever - c'mon John MacLeod was sub .500 over 8 years with TWO 9-18 seasons. That shitshow was barely D1 basketball for close to a decade.

How can we not be excited about building around Mooney and Durham in the paint? Do we really think none of these frosh can shoot? They were supposed to be bringing in long range reinforcements and have fallen flat. People really think there is no talent there though? These guys are just a bit over their head in the most competitive league in CBB. And I don't care what people say, Pflueger is a straight up winner who makes those around him better. His return will be a much needed dose of glue and seasoning.

I just cannot begin to imagine where people drew this conclusion. Like, at all.

TOS has been in meltdown mode about Brey and his recruiting efforts, forgetting that we are a year removed from landing one of the best classes in modern ND basketball. Yet, people are still whining that we have a roster full of bad talent.

I get the skepticism about the immediate future to an extent, but stuff like that is just flat out laughable.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I just cannot begin to imagine where people drew this conclusion. Like, at all.

TOS has been in meltdown mode about Brey and his recruiting efforts, forgetting that we are a year removed from landing one of the best classes in modern ND basketball. Yet, people are still whining that we have a roster full of bad talent.

I get the skepticism about the immediate future to an extent, but stuff like that is just flat out laughable.

I think the biggest issue, regarding people's expectation is, Brey has had a great stretch of sustained good-great basketball. And now that there's a gap year + roster depletion, they're completely dumbfounded and lashing out irrationally. This is college basketball. there's not 85 scholarships. It's much, much harder to manger, as a whole.

In terms of recruiting, people don't understand the difference between a #1 overall player and ~#90 overall player. The difference between a Zion and a Nate is huuuge in terms of "plug and play". With that said, a "90 overall recruit" can easily blossom into a 5 star talent when it's all said and done... This team is stacked with talent (via brey standards) they're just raw. Only time can fix that.

 

[RDU Irish]

I think the biggest issue, regarding people's expectation is, Brey has had a great stretch of sustained good-great basketball. And now that there's a gap year + roster depletion, they're completely dumbfounded and lashing out irrationally. This is college basketball. there's not 85 scholarships. It's much, much harder to manger, as a whole.

In terms of recruiting, people don't understand the difference between a #1 overall player and ~#90 overall player. The difference between a Zion and a Nate is huuuge in terms of "plug and play". With that said, a "90 overall recruit" can easily blossom into a 5 star talent when it's all said and done... This team is stacked with talent (via brey standards) they're just raw. Only time can fix that.

Brey has "hit" on a very high level - virtually everyone is a quality ACC contributors by year 3/4/5. My only beef is letting the roster get so damn thin and needing a 5 person class. They are just so thin on upperclassmen bodies.

Hell the gap from #20 to #60 is pretty remarkable really - or top 5 to #20-30 - much more individual sport than most. Just look at how horrible and lost Duke is without their ringer (and that is with a few other ringers left to try and carry the load).

 

[Woneone]

I said it last year on how Mooney needed to play more because we had line-ups that we needed another scorer.

I'd say the same about this team, but we don't have another player that can score consistently.

This stuff is just so tough to watch.

 

[irishff1014]

DJ Harvey should sit on the bench the rest of this game. He is not good

 

[Woneone]

DJ Harvey should sit on the bench the rest of this game. He is not good

I was just about to post, all those optimists, I want someone to defend playing DJ Harvey this much.

 

[Woneone]

Played hard. Obvious flaws are still obvious.

One side note, this is an FSU team that committed 31 fouls in a game vs Pitt earlier in the year. A team ranking 297th in the country in fouls per game at 20.

14 fouls were called on FSU. I'm going to emphasize the "were called" part.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I was just about to post, all those optimists, I want someone to defend playing DJ Harvey this much.

You see his flashes tonight? Dude has only played about one season of basketball, with a knee recovery in between. He's going to be great if he can stay healthy.

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[Huntr]

The officials seemed to let a lot of stuff go tonight. Arena was about 2/3rds full, crowd wasn't in to it until fsu took the lead toward the end.


This team...man. They play indecisively and fairly lackadaisical at times. Like, if Mooney had attitude, he could really be a force. Instead, he kind of just takes up space, then you notice he has like 10 and 10. It's weird.

 

[Woneone]

You see his flashes tonight? Dude has only played about one season of basketball, with a knee recovery in between. He's going to be great if he can stay healthy.

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Harvey is going to be a player that averages 14 ppg if he plays 35 minutes.

The question is going to be whether or not he decides to defend (he normally is the worst defender on the court for us, by a pretty substantial margin, and that's counting Laz, who at least gives an effort), whether he decides to rebound (when we go 4 guards like we did tonight on occasion, he can't have 2 boards and Hubb have 7. By the way, if I'm Mooney, I'm grilling both Hubb and Goodwin for getting him dunked on twice), and if he wants to actually run the offense (he looks lost, a whooole bunch, which is demonstrated when he dribbles directly into a defender. I saw at least 3 times he caused a trap on the ball handler because he was just wandering the perimeter).

You cite his knee. His inability to defend (even in zone), willingness to rebound, and being behind some of the freshman in knowing how to play on a team isn't because he hurt his knee. As Noie and the guys on II said, he's been the same player since the age of 15 (I honestly have no idea how accurate that is, but with two sources saying the same thing, I tend to believe it).

Harvey being able to create his own won't be what holds him back. It's the mental aspect. Which, in the quote you referenced, is probably why Brey sat him for the first 6 minutes after half, and he played his second lowest minute total (second to the BC game, when he equally awful and played only 21).

Great would probably be too strong a word for me at this point, I'd have to see a few more games where he looks engaged like the GT game, but at worst he would give us that guy who can create his own late in the clock, which this team just doesn't have.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Harvey is going to be a player that averages 14 ppg if he plays 35 minutes.

The question is going to be whether or not he decides to defend (he normally is the worst defender on the court for us, by a pretty substantial margin, and that's counting Laz, who at least gives an effort), whether he decides to rebound (when we go 4 guards like we did tonight on occasion, he can't have 2 boards and Hubb have 7. By the way, if I'm Mooney, I'm grilling both Hubb and Goodwin for getting him dunked on twice), and if he wants to actually run the offense (he looks lost, a whooole bunch, which is demonstrated when he dribbles directly into a defender. I saw at least 3 times he caused a trap on the ball handler because he was just wandering the perimeter).

You cite his knee. His inability to defend (even in zone), willingness to rebound, and being behind some of the freshman in knowing how to play on a team isn't because he hurt his knee. As Noie and the guys on II said, he's been the same player since the age of 15 (I honestly have no idea how accurate that is, but with two sources saying the same thing, I tend to believe it).

Harvey being able to create his own won't be what holds him back. It's the mental aspect. Which, in the quote you referenced, is probably why Brey sat him for the first 6 minutes after half, and he played his second lowest minute total (second to the BC game, when he equally awful and played only 21).

Great would probably be too strong a word for me at this point, I'd have to see a few more games where he looks engaged like the GT game, but at worst he would give us that guy who can create his own late in the clock, which this team just doesn't have.

I don't think the knee is the problem, so much as it is the time he missed rehabbing the knee.

You have to remember that he missed all those games as a freshman and missed pretty much the entire offseason. Not to mention, he is likely just recently getting back into game shape. That's the time for him to hone the mental aspect of his game, by learning how to play within the system. He's essentially starting over from scratch right now.

It's important he makes major strides in the offseason in terms of system discipline. He looks like he's thinking too much at times. A lot of them do. He has to get to the point where he's not thinking and just doing.

On a side note, man, normally ISD isn't that bad, but there's a lot of people over there that are in meltdown mode right now with Brey and the progress of this team. I mean, a lot of it is just painful to read.

 

[Woneone]

I don't think the knee is the problem, so much as it is the time he missed rehabbing the knee.

You have to remember that he missed all those games as a freshman and missed pretty much the entire offseason. Not to mention, he is likely just recently getting back into game shape. That's the time for him to hone the mental aspect of his game, by learning how to play within the system. He's essentially starting over from scratch right now.

It's important he makes major strides in the offseason in terms of system discipline. He looks like he's thinking too much at times. A lot of them do. He has to get to the point where he's not thinking and just doing.

On a side note, man, normally ISD isn't that bad, but there's a lot of people over there that are in meltdown mode right now with Brey and the progress of this team. I mean, a lot of it is just painful to read.

I think that's where my difference of opinion is. I don't think he's actually "thinking", I think that's who he is. Now, you can obviously get someone acclimated to a team system, we've seen that time and time again, but people suggest that this is the same player who they saw as a Sophomore in HS, with very little growth to his game. That's concerning.

What scares me with him is obviously not the physical tools, but how little he looks engaged unless he has the ball in his hands. You can heal, you can coach a kid up, but it's hard to teach someone to be aggressive at specific aspects of basketball. Some kids don't close out hard, don't approach with a hand up (Savoy hit one early in the game over Harvey because he basically walked out at him from behind a screen with his hands down. Pretty sure it was Savoy). You can't attack the rim like GT or play defense like the first half at Virginia and then think "He's not ready". He's ready, he's shown it, he just doesn't do it. .

I don't think it's irrational to think that not every player on this roster is going to be "great". I actually think Harvey's ceiling is higher than anyone not named Laz. But I don't think he'll get to it.

I'm not usually one for, "We'll get'um next year!", but I've seen enough improvement in areas to think we'll be pretty good. Can we take some areas that are streaky (Hubb's shooting, DJ's effort) and combine that with physical gains that are desperately needed.

Hate on this year all you want (I plan to), but I don't think that signals doom and gloom for next year.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

You know confidence comes from experience, right?

Dude hasn't had a full season (combined) yet and has never had a full offense at ND.

Pretty early to right the guy off, especially given Breys history of player development.

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[Woneone]

You know confidence comes from experience, right?

Dude hasn't had a full season (combined) yet and has never had a full offense at ND.

Pretty early to right the guy off, especially given Breys history of player development.

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Confidence comes from successful experience. Brandon Wimbush can throw as many swing passes to a running back as he wants, but if he continuously bounces 7/10 into the ground, that experience of repeated failure doesn't exactly breed confidence.

Here's a quick example. Scout's take on a player:

..has shown flashes of ability to attack a closeout and continuing to improve on this facet of his game will help him become less one-dimensional. He is primarily a straight line driver and isn't adept at changing speeds which can make him predictable off the dribble. His physical tools allows him to get to the rim and be a capable finisher once he gets there,, as he converted 62.5% of his 80 attempts according to Synergy Sports Technology by using his explosiveness in traffic and length to play above the rim.

Unfortunately he can't always get to the rim as he struggles with his ball handling skills with a defender in front of him. He settles for off balance floaters while trying to pivot past the defender after he picks up his dribble as he lacks the advanced ball-handling moves to create space in traffic. He can be a soft finisher around the basket as he looks to avoid contact...

Defensively, there are too many possessions where his intensity level is too casual or simply nonexistent, allowing himself to coast on that side of the floor. He fails to pressure the ball, let's himself get beat off the dribble and shies away from physical contact, which allows his man free looks at the rim. He doesn't like to mix it up on the glass and averaged only 4.0 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes, one of the lowest marks among small forwards in our top 100. He wasn't able to exert his will physically as much as scouts likely wanted to see , and he will need to find a higher level of intensity...

That's a scouts take on VJ Beachem (I cut and pasted). A four year player, whose game didn't develop to be a "great" player, even though having physical tools similar to DJ.

But he was a very good player for Notre Dame. A good player with a role on a good team. Who, by the way, averaged 14.5 points per game as a Senior. A point total, I might add, that I suggsted DJ would do. Does that mean you consider VJ as a "write-off" as well?

Playing four years at ND doesn't automatically mean you're going to be great. It's not sacrilegious to point out flaws in a players game. It's not writing a player off when I put in the post that he has a high ceiling, I just don't think he'll get there yet. He has to show more than just getting minutes, they have to be good minutes. The kind that actually builds confidence and shows growth.

Hell, he might only end up as good as VJ Beachem. And that's perfectly ok by me.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Confidence comes from successful experience. Brandon Wimbush can throw as many swing passes to a running back as he wants, but if he continuously bounces 7/10 into the ground, that experience of repeated failure doesn't exactly breed confidence.

Here's a quick example. Scout's take on a player:



That's a scouts take on VJ Beachem (I cut and pasted). A four year player, whose game didn't develop to be a "great" player, even though having physical tools similar to DJ.

But he was a very good player for Notre Dame. A good player with a role on a good team. Who, by the way, averaged 14.5 points per game as a Senior. A point total, I might add, that I suggsted DJ would do. Does that mean you consider VJ as a "write-off" as well?

Playing four years at ND doesn't automatically mean you're going to be great. It's not sacrilegious to point out flaws in a players game. It's not writing a player off when I put in the post that he has a high ceiling, I just don't think he'll get there yet. He has to show more than just getting minutes, they have to be good minutes. The kind that actually builds confidence and shows growth.

Hell, he might only end up as good as VJ Beachem. And that's perfectly ok by me.

Harvey is nothing like Beachem. Beachem was 6'8 and about 200 pounds at his peak.

Harvey is currently 6'6 and 225 pounds and is more dynamic an athlete.

Beachem was also more of a spot-up shooter, perimeter type player. Harvey appears more like a slasher.

Beachem's issues were that he was relatively one-dimensional and that one-dimension had some telling flaws to it. He was able to make it work though, because he had some really good ball distributors in Jackson and Farrell.

That's not to say Harvey is guaranteed to exceed Beachem, but he has more upside and if he learns to play within the system, he'll be able to better reach that upside.

 

[Irish#1]

The end of the game was painful to watch. No flow to the offense with a lot of dribbling around the outside and no one trying to get open. As a result, forced to take crappy low percentage shots.

 

[Woneone]

Harvey is nothing like Beachem. Beachem was 6'8 and about 200 pounds at his peak.

Harvey is currently 6'6 and 225 pounds and is more dynamic an athlete.

Beachem was also more of a spot-up shooter, perimeter type player. Harvey appears more like a slasher.

Beachem's issues were that he was relatively one-dimensional and that one-dimension had some telling flaws to it. He was able to make it work though, because he had some really good ball distributors in Jackson and Farrell.

That's not to say Harvey is guaranteed to exceed Beachem, but he has more upside and if he learns to play within the system, he'll be able to better reach that upside.

That isn't the point. The point was that a top 100 player, after 4-years at Notre Dame, didn't magically fix his short-comings (my post was in response to me somehow "writing him off"). You're judging Beachem as a 4-year player. I promise you the conversation going into VJ's senior season was, "Man, he's athletic. If he works on X, Y, and Z, he could be great." It doesn't always happen.

And literally every post someone quotes me seems like I'm defending statements I didn't make. I didn't say they had the same strengths offensively, or were the same player. I said they shared similar physical tools.

Coming out of High School - DJ Was listed at 6'6 185. VJ was listed 6'7 180. Both had the same traits, "Explosive Athlete", "Long", etc. VJ was a hell of an athlete, he just didn't utilize it with his skill-set. I'd also say DJ is "one-dimensional" currently (and even that one-dimension is unreliable), and the defensive and rebounding statements in the scouting report could be word for word for Harvey at this point.

I don't actually disagree with the offensive assessment of their skill sets. DJ Harvey, in my opinion, will be a guy that averages 14 the next two years, carving out that "Get your own when the offense breaks down" guy. He'll be a solid contributor moving forward, he may be better, he may be worse. That's why we have fan forums to speculate :0) Right now, speculating is much more fun than the actual season (and probably the only thing keeping me sane watching this team).

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Woneone -

What was your take on Dakich defending/loving on DJ?
Think he knows nothing about basketball?
Think he knows nothing about injury rehab?

DJ, without doubt, has the potential to be a great (not just, "ok") player for ND. His size, speed, instinct ratio is great (especially given his limited number of games/practices due to injury/youthfulness).

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Coming out of High School - DJ Was listed at 6'6 185. VJ was listed 6'7 180. Both had the same traits, "Explosive Athlete", "Long", etc. VJ was a hell of an athlete, he just didn't utilize it with his skill-set.

1) My brother played against VJ (several times) in high school. He was not 180, I promise lol

2) Even with that weight, comparing their games based on high school size is silly. DJ is already up to 225. VJ is still at 201 in G League...

They are radically different players.

 

[BabyIrish]

1) My brother played against VJ (several times) in high school. He was not 180, I promise lol

2) Even with that weight, comparing their games based on high school size is silly. DJ is already up to 225. VJ is still at 201 in G League...

They are radically different players.

Here's the thing, HE NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE SAME PLAYER, just that they had similar physical builds.

He already admitted they had different skill sets offensively and that DJ will probably develop into a good scorer the next couple of years.

What he is arguing is whether he will develop into an all around great player, saying that he will not. He's observing that DJ isn't giving much effort defensively and on the boards and is interested to see if he develops in that aspect of the game. He's leaning right now to believe that he will not develop that aspect of his game because of his lack of effort.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Here's the thing, HE NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE SAME PLAYER, just that they had similar physical builds.

He already admitted they had different skill sets offensively and that DJ will probably develop into a good scorer the next couple of years.

What he is arguing is whether he will develop into an all around great player, saying that he will not. He's observing that DJ isn't giving much effort defensively and on the boards and is interested to see if he develops in that aspect of the game. He's leaning right now to believe that he will not develop that aspect of his game because of his lack of effort.

Here's the thing...

Why bother comparing two unlike players. while attempting to project their "career".

Why not compare DJ Harvey to DJ Jackson while we're at it. Both were similarly "good recruits."

Why not compare to Carleton Scott? Why was VJ even brought up? I'm not the only one that noticed this absurdity (Crazy Balki as well).

 

[BabyIrish]

Here's the thing...

Why bother comparing two unlike players. while attempting to project their "career".

Why not compare DJ Harvey to DJ Jackson while we're at it. Both were similarly "good recruits."

Why not compare to Carleton Scott? Why was VJ even brought up? I'm not the only one that noticed this absurdity (Crazy Balki as well).

Because he's a player that had a high ceiling that didn't hit his ceiling, which is what he thinks will happen with DJ.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Because he's a player that had a high ceiling that didn't hit his ceiling, which is what he thinks will happen with DJ.

And we're still bringing VJ into this, because?

Here is what he is basically proposing
1) They were around the same size (they weren't)
2) They're both around equally talented (they're not...VJ played for New Haven...DJ Dematha)
3) I realize they're completely different players, but...
"Therefore, I think DJ is doomed to repeat VJs path"

There is literally nothing from VJs career that should be used as a measuring stick for DJ...

If you want to speculate about the type of player DJ will end up being, go for it. But comparing him to guy like VJ is silly, because it's implying that DJ will fall into similar faults as VJ.

Just simply a silly comparison. It would be like me worrying that Kevin Austin will fall down as another Ben Koyack.

 

[BabyIrish]

And we're still bringing VJ into this, because?

Here is what he is basically proposing
1) They were around the same size (they weren't)
2) They're both around equally talented (they're not...VJ played for New Haven...DJ Dematha)
3) I realize they're completely different players, but...
"Therefore, I think DJ is doomed to repeat VJs path"

There is literally nothing from VJs career that should be used as a measuring stick for DJ...

If you want to speculate about the type of player DJ will end up being, go for it. But comparing him to guy like VJ is silly, because it's implying that DJ will fall into similar faults as VJ.

Just simply a silly comparison. It would be like me worrying that Kevin Austin will fall down as another Ben Koyack.

They are a similar build and they play the same wing position in Brey's system. So not really a silly comparison at all.

 

[fightingirish26]

2) They're both around equally talented (they're not...VJ played for New Haven...DJ Dematha)

I don't feel like getting into it but this has to be some of the worst logic I've ever seen

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I don't feel like getting into it but this has to be some of the worst logic I've ever seen

You think DJ and VJ were equally talented and experienced coming out of high school? Do you know much about New Haven (FW) IN? Lol.

(also, the OP is the one that suggested they were equally talented high school players...I'm the pointing out, unequivocally, DJ is the superior talent).

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

They are a similar build and they play the same wing position in Brey's system. So not really a silly comparison at all.

1) They don't
2) They don't

They might both be a 3/4. But they are absolutely, completely different skill sets. Lol

Again, Carelton Scott would be a much better comparison for DJ. Big, physical and can do it from every inch of the court. VJ was a 1 trick pony (2, if you count his leaping ability for occasional dunks on break aways).

Also, didn't hit his ceiling? I watched VJ in high school. I watched VJ in college. I think he did a damn good job for ND and definitely played to expectations. Were people expecting him to be a goat?