If I'm Recruiting for Notre Dame

[IrishLax]

I am pumping this up like crazy. I think this has already been shared, but ND is basically dead even with Yale at #8 for ROI for a college degree. That is, if you're going to college to set yourself up with a career, Notre Dame is just about as good as it gets.

What's Your College Degree Worth? - Businessweek

Other schools of note...

Stanford is the only BCS school ahead of ND at #6.
USC comes in at #48.
Michigan is not in the top 50.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Amen.

Not just for recruits, but anyone choosing between colleges should go to the highest ranked school they can get into on that list.

By the way, you're totally jacking my moves here, Lax. #smh

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Yep ND graduates are ballers, to bad I'm to stupid to go there and went to UCONN.

 

[Veer option]

NYU not in the top 50?

 

[BeauBenken]

Lol Yea Whiskey has been talking about ND's ROI for what seems like months now.

I thought you were going to say what type of kids you would recruit or something.

I'm glad I didn't do my original idea when seeing this thread. Skipping straight to leave a comment saying, "...we would be losing".

 

[IrishLax]

Amen.

Not just for recruits, but anyone choosing between colleges should go to the highest ranked school they can get into on that list.

By the way, you're totally jacking my moves here, Lax. #smh

Imitation is the highest form of flattery

 

[Old Man Mike]

All of this is to the good. I would like to add something else. I was a university professor and since I wasn't at a large research university, didn't get paid a lot. But I wasn't "in it" for the money. And that's the point I'd like to add.

Notre Dame doesn't [of course] only give you earnings power, it gives you something far deeper which in the end of life's " balance sheet" pays off in ways at least as valuable.

Notre Dame encouraged in me, and I think most ND attenders, the understanding that Life isn't all about me, it is about duty and it is about team. I can't emphasize enough the impact that this has upon not only one's soul, but on one's productivity, perceived value [by one's colleagues and bosses], and happiness in the workplace.

The point in the end is: Notre Dame may be ranked in the top ten for earnings pay-offs in the long run of life [and deservedly so], but the ADDED component just mentioned is so FAR beyond that given commonly by other schools to their average students that it places Notre Dame FAR higher up on the rating scale than any of those institutions.

Notre Dame gives you THE BEST chance for the combination of earnings, on-the-job respect and happiness, production, peace-of-mind, a feeling of living a life worth living at the end of each day [if one makes any effort at all at reflection], and a robustness of the spirit.

There's a reason why "Notre Dame Man" carries a special aura about it. As long as we don't talk too much about our football team, most people are glad to see us coming.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

My only qualm with rankings like these is that they don't control for the phenomenon that kids with rich parents tend to have larger salaries. (And kids who know kids with rich parents tend to have larger salaries). In this instance the high salary is in *spite of* rather than *because of* the degree they've earned.

Not saying that degrees don't vary in value, or that ND's isn't high, but "studies" like these have a serious correlation/causation problem.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My only qualm with rankings like these is that they don't control for the phenomenon that kids with rich parents tend to have larger salaries. (And kids who know kids with rich parents tend to have larger salaries). In this instance the high salary is in *spite of* rather than *because of* the degree they've earned.

Not saying that degrees don't vary in value, or that ND's isn't high, but "studies" like these have a serious correlation/causation problem.

Um, what? Children with wealthy parents definitely enjoy some networking advantages over middle and lower class children, but I seriously doubt that single factor is enough to appreciably skew the table, or that there are enough lazy trust fund babies at those schools to make a difference.

Edit: Actually, I'm sure that's not the case. 3 of the top 4 are engineering schools. You think their high salaries are mostly due to having well-connected parents? You aren't gonna find many lazy trust fund babies at any of those institutions.

 

[ErieIrish13]

Wish i would have got accepted to ND, but ill just have to aim for ND grad school now.

 

[koonja]

I think that although this is a selling point, 17-year old star athletes are more interested in playing time, winning, being on TV, and campus life rather than a 40-year decision. But then again, I'm the negative guy.

 

[edgesofsanity]

I think that although this is a selling point, 17-year old star athletes are more interested in playing time, winning, being on TV, and campus life rather than a 40-year decision. But then again, I'm the negative guy.

Maybe some are; but there are plenty of athletes with their heads on straight (usually by an excellent set of parents) who consider all the angles. The ones who study and work on their GPA as much as their YPA. And these are the ones to whom this study would appeal.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Um, what? Children with wealthy parents definitely enjoy some networking advantages over middle and lower class children, but I seriously doubt that single factor is enough to appreciably skew the table, or that there are enough lazy trust fund babies at those schools to make a difference.

Edit: Actually, I'm sure that's not the case. 3 of the top 4 are engineering schools. You think their high salaries are mostly due to having well-connected parents? You aren't gonna find many lazy trust fund babies at any of those institutions.

The engineering thing is because of the PayScale reporting method on which the "study" is based -- those are the most readily available salaries.

But if you honestly think that children of wealthy parents only enjoy "some networking advantages" -- as opposed to, say, actually being employed by said parents and/or having access to venture capital -- then I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to us having different experiences.

 

[koonja]

Maybe some are; but there are plenty of athletes with their heads on straight (usually by an excellent set of parents) who consider all the angles. The ones who study and work on their GPA as much as their YPA. And these are the ones to whom this study would appeal.

I agree it would appeal to them. I'm just saying that's a small portion of the top recruits.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The engineering thing is because of the PayScale reporting method on which the "study" is based -- those are the most readily available salaries.

What is that supposed to mean?

But if you honestly think that children of wealthy parents only enjoy "some networking advantages" -- as opposed to, say, actually being employed by said parents and/or having access to venture capital -- then I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to us having different experiences.

Some kids of wealthy parents get jobs that way, but there's no way it happens frequently enough to be statistically meaningful. A large % of wealthy parents are professionals-- lawyers, doctors, etc. They can't simply hire their children at a high salary out of undergrad.

 

[WaveDomer]

Definitely an interesting study. I happen to think undergrad is good almost anywhere as long as you work hard and get the most out of it. I think what ND has going for it, especially in terms of sports, is that they support the student and it's not a bogus degree. You have to work. I think it would be interesting to break this study down further. Like Whiskey said, there are engineering schools up on the list. Also, what about alumni connections? Certainly, schools like ND and any of the Ivy Leagues have tremendous alumni connections. Regional schools tend to have more regional connections. And would that have an impact on salary depending on the region?

But as far as recruiting, yeah, ND should have a huge advantage for any kid/family that cares about academics and the complete education.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Maybe some are; but there are plenty of athletes with their heads on straight (usually by an excellent set of parents) who consider all the angles. The ones who study and work on their GPA as much as their YPA. And these are the ones to whom this study would appeal.

It's all in the sales pitch. Those kids are likely to view their degree as a safety net. Point out that only 2% of CFB players get drafted, and that the average NFL career only lasts 3 years. Boom.

I agree it would appeal to them. I'm just saying that's a small portion of the top recruits.

ND offered most of the top recruits in the country this cycle. If you can hack it academically at ND, you can appreciate the ~$1 million disparity in 30Y ROI between ND and 'Bama.

 

[IrishLax]

I think that although this is a selling point, 17-year old star athletes are more interested in playing time, winning, being on TV, and campus life rather than a 40-year decision. But then again, I'm the negative guy.

But when you're competing against the Florida States of the world you can show a kid "look, the average ND kid is making $1.5 million whereas students who go to FSU are making half that" it validates the message of a 40 year decision that our coaches preach.

This also has to help you with the very academics centric kids, like Ifeadi Odenigbo who is choosing between Cal, Stanford, Northwestern and ND. You can show that the ND education is just about as valuable as a degree from Stanford, and significantly ahead of Cal and Northwestern.

I just think attaching a quantifiable figure to normal coach speak does volumes to validate your claims for parents/kids. For example, Greg Schiano told Savon Huggins that he would definitely go to Rutgers over Notre Dame for an education. Anyone can say that their school has "great academics" or is ranked high in program XYZ... but if show a kid a graphic of "this is how many pallets of $100 bills the average ND student makes, and this is how many pallets a Rutgers student makes" it hammers home the point that not all degrees are made equal.

Right now Notre Dame recruits on tradition, our national TV exposure, and education. The only one of those that is hard to quantify is education because education is such a subjective term. Attach a cash value to it and I think it's a very convincing argument.

 

[Kak7304]

My only qualm with rankings like these is that they don't control for the phenomenon that kids with rich parents tend to have larger salaries. (And kids who know kids with rich parents tend to have larger salaries). In this instance the high salary is in *spite of* rather than *because of* the degree they've earned.

Not saying that degrees don't vary in value, or that ND's isn't high, but "studies" like these have a serious correlation/causation problem.

In many instances, the degree and knowledge accumulated through education are only a small part of the equation. The extensive and family-like nature of ND's alumni network has an enormous influence on the earning/job potential of its graduates. A huge contributor to the value of a Notre Dame education is buying into and being accepted into that network.

I am in medical school and most of what we do is based off numbers and merit, but I have still directly benefited from our alumni network. I have met multiple doctors through alumni groups who have given me shadowing opportunities and have also written letters of recommendation for me. We have many alumni who have far-reaching influence in many different industries, as do all of these schools at the top of the list. The variables such as "rich kids with rich parents" are an important part of the equation because the influence they exert in the real world directly contributes to the value of the degree.

 

[WaveDomer]

Something to take into account: if you get into Harvard you had to work your tail off. So, chances are you are going to work your tail off when you get out of school too. That work effort will make you more money. Not bagging the study, just saying that the student going to that institution has a lot to do with what they make after school. Schools like Alabama may tend to attract people who don't want to work that hard. (Alabama is just an example) and that is definitely going to rank them low. However, if you get a kid who busts his tail he could probably go anywhere and do well monetarily.

 

[koonja]

But when you're competing against the Florida States of the world you can show a kid "look, the average ND kid is making $1.5 million whereas students who go to FSU are making half that" it validates the message of a 40 year decision that our coaches preach.

This also has to help you with the very academics centric kids, like Ifeadi Odenigbo who is choosing between Cal, Stanford, Northwestern and ND. You can show that the ND education is just about as valuable as a degree from Stanford, and significantly ahead of Cal and Northwestern.

I just think attaching a quantifiable figure to normal coach speak does volumes to validate your claims for parents/kids. For example, Greg Schiano told Savon Huggins that he would definitely go to Rutgers over Notre Dame for an education. Anyone can say that their school has "great academics" or is ranked high in program XYZ... but if show a kid a graphic of "this is how many pallets of $100 bills the average ND student makes, and this is how many pallets a Rutgers student makes" it hammers home the point that not all degrees are made equal.

Right now Notre Dame recruits on tradition, our national TV exposure, and education. The only one of those that is hard to quantify is education because education is such a subjective term. Attach a cash value to it and I think it's a very convincing argument.

I really feel like most kids who get D1 scholarships believe they have a change to get to the NFL, not matter their ranking. Of course, as you put it, it rarely happens. Humans naturally feel like they're better than average at things, even if they're not. It's a psychology thing.

My point is they care more about exposure, facilities to help them get to the league (fortunately, ND has both of these), etc, than how much their degree is going to be worth after college.

As you pointed out, it is a great selling point to recruits like IO, but those recruits are the minority.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Definitely an interesting study. I happen to think undergrad is good almost anywhere as long as you work hard and get the most out of it.

It's a truism that you can get ahead in life no matter where you go to school simply by working hard. That doesn't change the fact that the market values a degree from different schools at different rates.

I think what ND has going for it, especially in terms of sports, is that they support the student and it's not a bogus degree. You have to work. I think it would be interesting to break this study down further. Like Whiskey said, there are engineering schools up on the list. Also, what about alumni connections? Certainly, schools like ND and any of the Ivy Leagues have tremendous alumni connections. Regional schools tend to have more regional connections. And would that have an impact on salary depending on the region?

Strong alumni networks, regional prestige, etc., is all captured in the bottom-line statistic.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

What is that supposed to mean?

The PayScale employment data are reported salaries of undergraduates who don't continue enter the labor force without going to grad school. The highest ones are going to be engineering, naturally.

Which also makes my point -- the "value of the degree" isn't as important as the "value of the *field* you go into". You have to isolate the value of the different fields to truly get the "value of the degree" in a general way.

Some kids of wealthy parents get jobs that way, but there's no way it happens frequently enough to be statistically meaningful. A large % of wealthy parents are professionals-- lawyers, doctors, etc. They can't simply hire their children at a high salary out of undergrad.

I assure you they can and do. I personally know of more biglaw attorneys hired because of their parents than I have fingers and toes. I also personally know IT consultants, "business development", attorneys and, yes, doctors who were hired by their parent's physician partnership because of nepotism. And I don't know that many people.

The point being, whether they went to Harvey Mudd or ND probably wouldn't have made a huge difference. Thus, imputing their salaries to the abstract "value" of a degree from their alma mater corrupts the validity of the results.

 

[WaveDomer]

Strong alumni networks, regional prestige, etc., is all captured in the bottom-line statistic.

Of course. It'd just be interesting to see it broken down in some fashion. Anyone of us can look at it and break it down just by knowing areas etc., but it would interesting to see it in numbers.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The point being, whether they went to Harvey Mudd or ND probably wouldn't have made a huge difference. Thus, imputing their salaries to the abstract "value" of a degree from their alma mater corrupts the validity of the results.

You're generalizing from an admittedly small sample of anecdotal evidence. If you think the data in that study is skewed by nepotism, you ought to do some research into the median annual income of a family who sends a child to each of the schools in the top 10. It won't be anything approaching "wealthy", I can assure you.

Since we're sharing anecdotal evidence, of my 20-30 closest friends and acquaintances at ND, only 2-3 would be considered upper class, and none of them got jobs at their parents' firms or companies.

But they probably used a family connection somewhere along the way, thereby invalidating any work they did to earn their degree, AMIRITE?

 

[NDdomer2]

You don't have to be wealthy to network!!!!!

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...Since we're sharing anecdotal evidence, of my 20-30 closest friends and acquaintances at ND, only 2-3 would be considered upper class, and none of them got jobs at their parents' firms or companies.

...

But don't you see that proves my point? I guarantee that is not the same percentage of other, high-wage producing schools, meaning that the data is flawed and ND should be higher.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But don't you see that proves my point? I guarantee that is not the same percentage of other, high-wage producing schools, meaning that the data is flawed and ND should be higher.

Without hard figures to debate over, we probably won't get anywhere with this. My intuition is that the median family income for students at the schools in the top 10 is probably far too low to conclude that the figures are appreciably skewed by nepotism.

As WaveDomer pointed out earlier, there are all sorts of factors not directly attributable to the schools themselves that are influencing these figures. The top 10 schools are surely getting a hugely disproportionate amount of hard-working and/or naturally intelligent students that probably would have succeeded with a community college degree as well.

Some of the value is attributable to alumni networks and the market value of the degree. Some is attributable to other stuff. Either way, college is ultimately an investment in future earning potential, so prospective students would be wise to attend the highest ranked school they can get into on that list. You can't argue with the 30Y ROI.

 

[Carlyle Javar Holiday]

Wow, did not know CAL was the best state U in the nation.

 

[JDAtlanta]

This is true for the general student body.

This is true for the general student body.

I am pumping this up like crazy. I think this has already been shared, but ND is basically dead even with Yale at #8 for ROI for a college degree. That is, if you're going to college to set yourself up with a career, Notre Dame is just about as good as it gets.

What's Your College Degree Worth? - Businessweek

Other schools of note...

Stanford is the only BCS school ahead of ND at #6.
USC comes in at #48.
Michigan is not in the top 50.

A ND athlete is graduating with the same degree as the general student body. Many of the CFB powerhouse schools athletes are (if they graduate) generally not getting their degree in Microbiology or Business Administration. They are getting their degree in Kinesiology or Parks and Recreation.