Superconferences & Realignment

[maizer]

Why? How is a ND in the ACC any different from an independent ND as far as you're concerned?

#notB1GenoughforND

Actually, as a Michigan fan I'm of the opinion David Brandon, and the rest of Michigan fans would love playing ND if you joined the moon conference. Too much history and prestige along the lines. What Brandon meant was that both schools might want a break ever 8 years or so to play someone different, but that'll be irregular.

The only reason a stoppage might happen if we go to 10 conference games, IMHO. And even thats a big IF

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

2. The argument that ND should go to the east coast because they are a 'national team' is shaky IMO. You become nationally followed by playing the biggest teams on prime time television, not because you travel to some big city. No one outside of the Carolinas will care whether ND plays Wake, Duke or even Clemson and UNC in football. But play Wisconsin or Michigan, OSU, PSU, Nebraska on ABC in the huge, rocking stadiums and you BECOME the national focus.

ND is already a national team, they don't need to become one. Playing OSU and Wisconsin does nothing outside the Midwest. Maintaining the USC rivalry on the west coast and playing teams from Florida all the way up to Syracuse would do morein my opinion.

3. Academically, the B1G offers so much more. I'll admit, rankings wise the ACC has the B1G beat. No shame in admitting that. But merely being affiliated with a conference does nothing for your students. You have to be in something like the CIC that will help your school, your students, alumni, local economy, and eventually athletics as well.

What can the B1G offer? ND isn't a research school.

4. Non football sports is a wash. I believe playing in the best conference in basketball is worth the risk of getting killed by the tough schedule. However, the B1G offers the best conference in hockey(albeit less important that basketball), and most importantly, the student athletes wouldn't have to suffer from long distant travel. This is, or should be a huge factor.

Non football is not a wash by any means. Hockey would be better in B1G but that's about it. Been traveling to the Big East for how many years now? Travel is a non issue.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

1. Is ND not already somewhat different from the southeastern schools who wield power in the ACC, but also isolated in another part of the country? A perfect situation for misunderstandings and bad feelings to develop. Heck, look at PSU. PSU fits the B1G profile like a glove, and the vast majority of fans love the addition of PSU, and vice versa. Yet there are still undercurrents of complaining. In the ACC, the other schools may accuse ND of elitism, and it will be easy for ND to look down upon the schools who have much less tradition.

Do you really think Jack Swarbrick is contemplating how ND will "get along" with the other schools in the conference?

2. The argument that ND should go to the east coast because they are a 'national team' is shaky IMO. You become nationally followed by playing the biggest teams on prime time television, not because you travel to some big city. No one outside of the Carolinas will care whether ND plays Wake, Duke or even Clemson and UNC in football. But play Wisconsin or Michigan, OSU, PSU, Nebraska on ABC in the huge, rocking stadiums and you BECOME the national focus.

Read this; it will answer most of your questions regarding ND to the ACC.

The short answer is that going to the ACC allows us to maintain and increase exposure in our most important markets, while going to the B1G would regionalize us and cause us to lose exposure in those important media markets.

3. Academically, the B1G offers so much more. I'll admit, rankings wise the ACC has the B1G beat. No shame in admitting that. But merely being affiliated with a conference does nothing for your students. You have to be in something like the CIC that will help your school, your students, alumni, local economy, and eventually athletics as well.

We're not a large research institution like most of the B1G schools, and academics aren't a very important factor here.

4. Non football sports is a wash. I believe playing in the best conference in basketball is worth the risk of getting killed by the tough schedule. However, the B1G offers the best conference in hockey(albeit less important that basketball), and most importantly, the student athletes wouldn't have to suffer from long distant travel. This is, or should be a huge factor.

Consensus seems to be that the expanded ACC will better a better basketball conference than the B1G, and that the ACC is already far superior to the B1G for ND's Olympic sports. Travel is a trivial concern compared to protecting the brand and our major markets (in fact, it's basically the only thing that matters).

So hey, you've more than earned the right to do what you want. But at least in the B1G, you will be among peers befitting your tradition. Yost was an idiot in the past, and noone will make the same mistake again. While I like the ACC, they honestly are not there yet, at least in terms of football.

What is tradition worth in the face of billions in TV revenue (and realignment overall)? And why would ND want to be just another storied midwestern football school in the B1G, when it could corner the market on tradition, academics, and gameday experience in the ACC?

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

Ok, seems like about 20 pages of the same thing over and over. Since we're all playing 'fantasy conferences' here, how about this idea? Notre Dame and Texas start their own superconference?

I know, it won't happen, so spare me the "this won't happen" junk and suspend disbelief for a few minutes. Yeah, this is a 'how cool would this be' post.

The concept would be the National Conference:

Texas (duh, its Texas)
ND (duh, its ND)
Oklahoma (football powerhouse)
Army
Navy
Air Force (the academies are already national)
BYU (brings the national Mormon following, pretty solid fb program)
Kansas (brings a powerhouse basketball program)
Rutgers (access to the NYC market, and hey, every conference needs its cupcake)
Harvard (academic powerhouse, Boston market)
Miami (fb powerhouse, exposure in the southeast market)
USC (fb powerhouse, LA market)

That is a pretty raging conference right there, with a good balance of competitiveness, national exposure, academic excellence, and its own versions of Vandy, Duke and IU.

Having SC and Miami would be crucial, and plucking them would be tricky, of course. How f'ing cool would that be if ND stepped up tomorrow and proposed this!

 

[Aerosmith777]

You should add Hawaii, just for the trip to Hawaii every other year.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Dave Brandon already openly said he wants to play more home games for more revenue. That 20 year (or however many it was) contract between Michigan and ND was never signed also. So there is a lot of suspicion about that series taking a longer break. ND going to the ACC would just be the out he'd be looking for to end that series and get one more home game a year.

The B1G is going to the 9-game schedule, so that'll be 4 B1G home games for Michigan every other year. We'll be seeing a lot more of the MAC schools later the decade on the schedule I think. It's all about the dollar signs. At least DB comes out and says it though.

I'd be totally fine with that. I just don't understand the "If ND snubs the B1G for the ACC, we'll stop playing you!1one" thing. Brandon could cancel the series tomorrow for the reasons you just gave. Moving to the ACC changes nothing, so I'm not sure how that provides an "out"; unless Brandon is going to feign insult and do it out of "solidarity" with the B1G.

26 pages? we are talking acc or big ten right? thats a ND in the big ten schedule no way we need to go to acc...

I'll save you some time, and us some handwaving. Read this, trinity. It sums up "ND to the ACC" nicely.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

ehh nevermind.

 

[maizer]

ND is already a national team, they don't need to become one. Playing OSU and Wisconsin does nothing outside the Midwest. Maintaining the USC rivalry on the west coast and playing teams from Florida all the way up to Syracuse would do morein my opinion.

Sure, those games are interesting to fans who love ND already. But what about the next generation, any new sets of fans whom you obviously want to become ND fans? The normal/casual football fan will much ND football much more when you play the really big boys. Check the ratings for any of your past games.

What can the B1G offer? ND isn't a research school.

But isn't that the way ND wants to go? Especially the faculty? The benefits of having a good research dept is incalculable to the school. Not saying the CIC is a guarantee, but it does provide a good opportunity.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Texas (duh, its Texas)
ND (duh, its ND)
Oklahoma (football powerhouse)
Army
Navy
Air Force (the academies are already national)
BYU (brings the national Mormon following, pretty solid fb program)
Kansas (brings a powerhouse basketball program)
Rutgers (access to the NYC market, and hey, every conference needs its cupcake)
Harvard (academic powerhouse, Boston market)
Miami (fb powerhouse, exposure in the southeast market)
USC (fb powerhouse, LA market)

The ADs believe the superconferences to be inevitable. That means 4 conferences of 16. There aren't enough quality teams to sustain a 5th AQ conference that way. The Big East and the Big 12 are talking merger right now, but none of the desirable programs are interested; they're bending over backwards to get into one of the soon-to-be-16 superconferences.

For that reason, it seems virtually unthinkable that USC and Miami would leave stable AQ conferences for anything else. I also have a hard time seeing ND and Texas leading a band of misfit programs in a 5th conference. That would be extremely risky for both schools.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

The ADs believe the superconferences to be inevitable. That means 4 conferences of 16. There aren't enough quality teams to sustain a 5th AQ conference that way. The Big East and the Big 12 are talking merger right now, but none of the desirable programs are interested; they're bending over backwards to get into one of the soon-to-be-16 superconferences.

For that reason, it seems virtually unthinkable that USC and Miami would leave stable AQ conferences for anything else. I also have a hard time seeing ND and Texas leading a band of misfit programs in a 5th conference. That would be extremely risky for both schools.

[sigh] you didn't read the disclaimer...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Sure, those games are interesting to fans who love ND already. But what about the next generation, any new sets of fans whom you obviously want to become ND fans? The normal/casual football fan will much ND football much more when you play the really big boys. Check the ratings for any of your past games.

We already do play the big boys, and that wouldn't change in the ACC. I don't really understand this argument, since the B1G has been less successful in postseason play than the ACC recently. I think you may be overestimating how the rest of the country views B1G football.

In any case, that's not the main concern here. The ACC covers some of our biggest media markets-- New York, Boston, Phili, and D.C. We'll never lose South Bend or Chicagoland simply due to proximity, and with the USC rivalry protected, we keep LA too. If we went to the B1G, we would lose New York (the biggest market), Boston, and D.C., while gaining nothing.

But isn't that the way ND wants to go? Especially the faculty? The benefits of having a good research dept is incalculable to the school. Not saying the CIC is a guarantee, but it does provide a good opportunity.

ND emulates the Ivies, not the big public research schools.

 

[anarin]

Ok, seems like about 20 pages of the same thing over and over. Since we're all playing 'fantasy conferences' here, how about this idea? Notre Dame and Texas start their own superconference?

I know, it won't happen, so spare me the "this won't happen" junk and suspend disbelief for a few minutes. Yeah, this is a 'how cool would this be' post.

The concept would be the National Conference:

Texas (duh, its Texas)
ND (duh, its ND)
Oklahoma (football powerhouse)
Army
Navy
Air Force (the academies are already national)
BYU (brings the national Mormon following, pretty solid fb program)
Kansas (brings a powerhouse basketball program)
Rutgers (access to the NYC market, and hey, every conference needs its cupcake)
Harvard (academic powerhouse, Boston market)
Miami (fb powerhouse, exposure in the southeast market)
USC (fb powerhouse, LA market)

That is a pretty raging conference right there, with a good balance of competitiveness, national exposure, academic excellence, and its own versions of Vandy, Duke and IU.

Having SC and Miami would be crucial, and plucking them would be tricky, of course. How f'ing cool would that be if ND stepped up tomorrow and proposed this!

I was thinking, wow that would be crazy.. then I saw harvard. haha

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Sure, those games are interesting to fans who love ND already. But what about the next generation, any new sets of fans whom you obviously want to become ND fans? The normal/casual football fan will much ND football much more when you play the really big boys. Check the ratings for any of your past games.

Clearly you have your maize and blue glasses on. If ND went to the B1G the next generation wouldn't care about ND as a national team. They would just be the small catholic school in the rust belt competeing for a rapidly depleting talent pool with large state schools. By joining the ACC and keeping the USC rivalry we maintain the NYC connection and west coast connection while tapping the talent rich south. Yes I realize Michigan pulls a few kids from Florida every year but those will be few and far between in the "super conference world."

But isn't that the way ND wants to go? Especially the faculty? The benefits of having a good research dept is incalculable to the school. Not saying the CIC is a guarantee, but it does provide a good opportunity.

Faculty will have absolutely zero impact on the decision. Yes there is some desire to beef the research department by some faculty but they never win the arguement.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

[sigh] you didn't read the disclaimer...

I did! That's why I didn't simply dismiss it with a "that'll never happen..."

It would be an interesting conference, but it's little more than fantasy right now. To be fair, some analysts are batting around the possibility of ND and Texas rounding up the leavings of the Big12 and the Big East to form a 5th conference, but I don't see it happening for the reasons I listed above.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

We already do play the big boys, and that wouldn't change in the ACC. I don't really understand this argument, since the B1G hasn't been less successful in postseason play than the ACC recently. I think you may be overestimating how the rest of the country views B1G football.

In any case, that's not the main concern here. The ACC covers some of our biggest media markets-- New York, Boston, Phili, and D.C. We'll never lose South Bend or Chicagoland simply due to proximity, and with the USC rivalry protected, we keep LA too. If we went to the B1G, we would lose New York (the biggest market), Boston, and D.C., while gaining nothing.

NOTHING!

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

It would be an interesting conference, but it's little more than fantasy right now. To be fair, some analysts are batting around the possibility of ND and Texas rounding up the leavings of the Big12 and the Big East to form a 5th conference, but I don't see it happening for the reasons I listed above.

Really? I hadn't read that. Agreed, that would never work, but, again, in fantasy land here, a conference with ND, Texas, Oklahoma, SC and Miami gets a seat at the table I would think. Thats why I was thinking SC and Miami would be crucial. Obviously its impossible, but just good fun to kick around

I think anyone following this thread can see you're pretty passionate about the subject, and I think that cool! Keep it up, Whiskey!

 

[cowme]

We already do play the big boys, and that wouldn't change in the ACC. I don't really understand this argument, since the B1G has been less successful in postseason play than the ACC recently. I think you may be overestimating how the rest of the country views B1G football.

In any case, that's not the main concern here. The ACC covers some of our biggest media markets-- New York, Boston, Phili, and D.C. We'll never lose South Bend or Chicagoland simply due to proximity, and with the USC rivalry protected, we keep LA too. If we went to the B1G, we would lose New York (the biggest market), Boston, and D.C., while gaining nothing.



ND emulates the Ivies, not the big public research schools.

I think you are all really overestimating how many new ND fans will come on the east coast...you do realize they have NBC on the east coast, right?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Really? I hadn't read that. Agreed, that would never work, but, again, in fantasy land here, a conference with ND, Texas, Oklahoma, SC and Miami gets a seat at the table I would think. Thats why I was thinking SC and Miami would be crucial. Obviously its impossible, but just good fun to kick around

Even without SC and Miami, that would be a viable conference. The question is whether Oklahoma and Okie State are bolting for the Pac-X or not.

I think anyone following this thread can see you're pretty passionate about the subject, and I think that cool! Keep it up, Whiskey!

I'm probably coming off as a d!ck here as I pound out responses. Apologies.

I think you are all really overestimating how many new ND fans will come on the east coast...you do realize they have NBC on the east coast, right?

ND isn't counting on getting tons of new fans. It's about protecting the fans we already have. A huge number of them are located in New York, Phili, and D.C. The ACC protects those markets for us (with an opportunity to expand) while we lose them in the B1G.

Population growth is also important to note. Most B1G states are actually decreasing in population, while large portions of the ACC are increasing in population rapidly. That's hugely important for future growth prospects.

 

[Irishnuke]

Even without SC and Miami, that would be a viable conference. The question is whether Oklahoma and Okie State are bolting for the Pac-X or not.



I'm probably coming off as a d!ck here as I pound out responses. Apologies.



ND isn't counting on getting tons of new fans. It's about protecting the fans we already have. A huge number of them are located in New York, Phili, and D.C. The ACC protects those markets for us (with an opportunity to expand) while we lose them in the B1G.

Population growth is also important to note. Most B1G states are actually decreasing in population, while large portions of the ACC are increasing in population rapidly. That's hugely important for future growth prospects.

Where did you find those numbers? Not saying they're wrong or anything, just seems odd that someone can come up with an exact number of ND fans in various places. I don't remember taking a survey.

 

[IrishLax]

ND isn't counting on getting tons of new fans. It's about protecting the fans we already have. A huge number of them are located in New York, Phili, and D.C. The ACC protects those markets for us (with an opportunity to expand) while we lose them in the B1G.

Population growth is also important to note. Most B1G states are actually decreasing in population, while large portions of the ACC are increasing in population rapidly. That's hugely important for future growth prospects.

This. I've heard many a person say that Notre Dame has more fans on Wall Street than in South Bend. The only people that don't understand Notre Dame being a "national" university are those that live in the Midwest. If you live on the east coast then you understand what kind of following ND has outside of middle America.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

^This...LAX and whiskey you guys are da men!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Where did you find those numbers? Not saying they're wrong or anything, just seems odd that someone can come up with an exact number of ND fans in various places. I don't remember taking a survey.

The Georgraphy of College Football by Nate Silver of the NY Times. GITF started a thread on it yesterday. The author used Google Analytics to generate his numbers.

Even if they're not strictly correct, I think that chart is an accurate representation of where most of our fans are located and in what relative concentration.

 

[Rhode Irish]

This data only confirms what many of us have been saying all along: ND is a northeast team as much as it is a midwest team (and that is being kind; really it is MORE of an east coast team).

Based off of these numbers, the biggest markets along the northeast corridor outnumber the biggest markets in the midwest 5:4. This has always been my perception.

 

[koonja]

Boy, this thread has some legs.

 

[koonja]

With the way our special teams has been this year, how bad is Frank Beamer going to have his way with us on special teams? Lol.

 

[NDinPA51]

First post here, I'm a pretty big follower of Irish Envy, this is where I come to keep up on recruiting news. I was watching Pardon the Interruption today and Wilbon went off on ND saying ND was considering the ACC over the Big 10 because they were ducking the Big 10. It p***** me off so much I decided to create an account just so I can rant.

 

[GBdomer]

First post here, I'm a pretty big follower of Irish Envy, this is where I come to keep up on recruiting news. I was watching Pardon the Interruption today and Wilbon went off on ND saying ND was considering the ACC over the Big 10 because they were ducking the Big 10. It p***** me off so much I decided to create an account just so I can rant.

my man.

 

[loomis41973]

Only an idiot would pick the Big 10 over the ACC.

 

[GBdomer]

Only an idiot would pick the Big 10 over the ACC.

post of the day.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

First post here, I'm a pretty big follower of Irish Envy, this is where I come to keep up on recruiting news. I was watching Pardon the Interruption today and Wilbon went off on ND saying ND was considering the ACC over the Big 10 because they were ducking the Big 10. It p***** me off so much I decided to create an account just so I can rant.

More handwaving from ESPN "analysts" instead of real insight. Wilbon's an admitted ND hater anyway. He's not worth your time.

Oh, and it's rich that he says that right after we knock off a ranked B1G team. Ducking the Big 10 my as$.