'12 CA WR Deontay Greenberry (Houston Signee)

[koonja]

I didn't say he's better than DGB. We haven't seen them head-to-head, so there's no way to know that.

Greenberry is a proven baller, though, and DGB isn't. That's why I wouldn't trade Greenberry for DGB at this point. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I put great stock in players who have proven they can perform against Division I talent.

That's a pretty bold statement. Have you seen his high-school production? I don't know how he's a top-5 player in America without being proven. Hmmm.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That's a pretty bold statement. Have you seen his high-school production? I don't know how he's a top-5 player in America without being proven. Hmmm.

To the best of my knowledge, DGB hasn't competed against the top recruits in the nation at any event. There are too many variables in high school football to consider any recruit "proven" based on those stats.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the recruiting services named him the top WR based on his measurables and junior season production alone.

But please, prove me wrong, oh tireless defender of recruiting services. Refute my argument with all of the 7ON tourneys and camps at which DGB has excelled against elite competition.

 

[koonja]

To the best of my knowledge, DGB hasn't competed against the top recruits in the nation at any event. There are too many variables in high school football to consider any recruit "proven" based on those stats.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the recruiting services named him the top WR based on his measurables and junior season production alone.

But please, prove me wrong, oh tireless defender of recruiting services. Refute my argument with all of the 7ON tourneys and camps at which DGB has excelled against elite competition.

So your arguement is that every single recruiting service who has DGB as a top 5 player in the country placed him there without having much evidence? And yours is that 7 on 7 tournaments are the purest way to evaluate talent?

I'll take the experts word on it, especially when it's unamimous over some tournament where nobody even got tackled.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So your arguement is that every single recruiting service who has DGB as a top 5 player in the country placed him there without having much evidence?

You do realize that there are only four of them, and that they influence each other heavily? It's not as if a bunch of independent auditors all came to the same inescapable conclusion.

And yours is that 7 on 7 tournaments are the purest way to evaluate talent?

Given the uncertainty involved in projecting talent at the next level, for DBs and WRs at least, dominance in 7ONs against the top recruits in the country is the best indicator of success in my opinion.

I'll take the experts word on it, especially when it's unamimous over some tournament where nobody even got tackled.

As I've said before, you put far too much faith in these services. You also can't be bothered to address any of my arguments or advance one of your own, so there's little point in continuing to argue with you.

 

[koonja]

You do realize that there are only four of them, and that they influence each other heavily? It's not as if a bunch of independent auditors all came to the same inescapable conclusion.



Given the uncertainty involved in projecting talent at the next level, for DBs and WRs at least, dominance in 7ONs against the top recruits in the country is the best indicator of success in my opinion.



As I've said before, you put far too much faith in these services. You also can't be bothered to address any of my arguments or advance one of your own, so there's little point in continuing to argue with you.

And you apparently put way too much faith in touch-football tournaments. I'm not taking away from DG, I've made that incredibly clear. But to say that DGB is unproven is a joke. Your conspiracy that there's an incredibly strong relationship between the recruiting services is fun one, and that they all apparently follow the leader, but it's not an accident that DGB has been called the next Randy Moss, only better. Or a mix between Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson. I guess he hasn't done enough for you though, so agree to disagree.

I don't know how he got to be a top-5 player in America without the flag football games. I guess he's just that good.

 

[BeauBenken]

And you apparently put way too much faith in touch-football tournaments. I'm not taking away from DB, I've made that incredibly clear. But to say that DGB is unproven is a joke. Your conspiracy that there's an incredibly strong relationship between the recruiting services is fun one, and that they all apparently follow the leader, but it's not an accident that DGB has been called the next Randy Moss, only better. Or a mix between Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson. I guess he hasn't done enough for you though, so agree to disagree.

I don't know how he got to be a top-5 player in America without the flag football games. I guess he's just that good.

I'm sorry, but this bugs me. Who is DB? His name is Deontay Greenberry. He would be DG, Tay-B, or just Deontay, but not DB. That makes me think you're talking about a defensive back.

 

[koonja]

I'm sorry, but this bugs me. Who is DB? His name is Deontay Greenberry. He would be DG, Tay-B, or just Deontay, but not DB. That makes me think you're talking about a defensive back.

I'm sorry for the one-character spelling error. Comparing DG and DGB is a bit of a tounge twister, or key twister. Let's just drop it. You convinced me that DGB is unproven, which you said, and these articles confirmed it for me. Hopefully DGB can get into some touch football tournaments so that he can get his name out there

MaxPreps Male Athlete of the Year: Dorial Green-Beckham - MaxPreps News

Becoming Dorial Green-Beckham - MaxPreps News



I'm done. Agree to disagree.

 

[BeauBenken]

I'm sorry for the one-character spelling error. Comparing DG and DGB is a bit of a tounge twister, or key twister. Let's just drop it. You convinced me that DGB is unproven, which you said, and these articles confirmed it for me. Hopefully DGB can get into some touch football tournaments so that he can get his name out there

MaxPreps Male Athlete of the Year: Dorial Green-Beckham - MaxPreps News

Becoming Dorial Green-Beckham - MaxPreps News



I'm done. Agree to disagree.

I wasn't the one arguing with you, but okay. And I understand why you would screw up with that, but nonetheless it bugs me.

I would love, love, love to have DGB, but I wouldn't trade Deontay for anybody. I love all the kids we have.

Oh, and thank you for going back and editing your previous typo.

 

[beryirish]

I didn't say he's better than DGB. We haven't seen them head-to-head, so there's no way to know that.

Greenberry is a proven baller, though, and DGB isn't. That's why I wouldn't trade Greenberry for DGB at this point. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I put great stock in players who have proven they can perform against Division I talent.

That just popped in my head. Sorry if I missed the train here but am I right to say that DGB hasn't been to any spring or summer camps? ie The Opening - Gridiron etc.??? If not I'm assuming the reason being the health of his brother and not wanting to leave his side.

Just was asking for a quick answer for this then we can get back to DG

 

[Whiskeyjack]

And you apparently put way too much faith in touch-football tournaments. I'm not taking away from DB, I've made that incredibly clear. But to say that DGB is unproven is a joke. Your conspiracy that there's an incredibly strong relationship between the recruiting services is fun one, and that they all apparently follow the leader, but it's not an accident that DGB has been called the next Randy Moss, only better. Or a mix between Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson. I guess he hasn't done enough for you though, so agree to disagree.

I don't know how he got to be a top-5 player in America without the flag football games. I guess he's just that good.

This is all hand-waving. You've not offered a shred of evidence in support of your position other than, "B-b-but the SERVICES SAY he's the next Randy Moss, etc." They're not unbiased talent evaluators. They also revel in that kind of hyperbole because it excites their subscribers and generates more revenue for them.

Do you know specifically why DGB is rated so highly? Do you have any idea what factors the recruiting services used in rating him above his peers?

I suspect it's based almost entirely on his measurables and his high school production. As I've mentioned several times, there are too many variables in high school football to use production at that level to accurately predict success at the next. A 5 RB recruit named James Aldridge put up ridiculous numbers in high school and was a total bust at ND.

Thus, for skill players at least, I feel like success in 7ON tournaments is a more accurate predictor of Division I success than measurables + high school production.

See what I just did? That's called an argument. Now unless you're prepared to address it, or to respond with something other than a mindless, "I'll go with the experts," don't bother replying.

 

[NDinL.A.]

And you apparently put way too much faith in touch-football tournaments. I'm not taking away from DG, I've made that incredibly clear. But to say that DGB is unproven is a joke. Your conspiracy that there's an incredibly strong relationship between the recruiting services is fun one, and that they all apparently follow the leader, but it's not an accident that DGB has been called the next Randy Moss, only better. Or a mix between Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson. I guess he hasn't done enough for you though, so agree to disagree.

I don't know how he got to be a top-5 player in America without the flag football games. I guess he's just that good.

I have to agree. Lots of guys look great in shorts. I've seen USC's guys, before an 8-5 season, blow e away with how unbelievable they looked in those 7 on 7 practices. I thought they'd win every game 50-0. Then they put the pads on and they were mediocre. I love what Greenbery is doing, just love it, but I'll wait to anoint him until we see it in football gear on a consistent basis.

 

[koonja]

I wasn't the one arguing with you, but okay. And I understand why you would screw up with that, but nonetheless it bugs me.

I would love, love, love to have DGB, but I wouldn't trade Deontay for anybody. I love all the kids we have.

Oh, and thank you for going back and editing your previous typo.

My problem was that you said DGB is unproven. We can think whatever we want about the recruiting services, but when someone's a consensus top 5 (in most cases the #1 over all player), I'm sorry but they just aren't going to get that wrong. Camps or not.

Berryirish, No, I could not find anything that DGB has been to any elite summer camps.

 

[koonja]

For the record, I love DG being irish. He's going to be a stud.

 

[beryirish]

My problem was that you said DGB is unproven. We can think whatever we want about the recruiting services, but when someone's a consensus top 5 (in most cases the #1 over all player), I'm sorry but they just aren't going to get that wrong. Camps or not.

Beryirish, No, I could not find anything that DGB has been to any elite summer camps.

That's surprising but I can understand if that is the reason. I agree on both sides of this argument. 7ON tournaments pit elite athletes against each other and you can measure that to a certain degree. Then what LA said once they put the pads on it could be a different scenario and outcome. DGB apparently proved himself a top player during his seasons and dominating the defense on top of his measureables. But there's no telling how he would do against elite talent (in shorts) at the camps. I'm Switzerland here.

 

[BeauBenken]

My problem was that you said DGB is unproven. We can think whatever we want about the recruiting services, but when someone's a consensus top 5 (in most cases the #1 over all player), I'm sorry but they just aren't going to get that wrong. Camps or not.

Berryirish, No, I could not find anything that DGB has been to any elite summer camps.

No. I didn't. Like I said, I wasn't the one arguing with you. That was Whiskey. And in the post below this one you said DB again. I don't know if you just keep accidentally screwing up or if you're just being an ***.

 

[Rocket89]

Hey....remember when ESPN had Greenberry as the nation's #84 receiver??

LOL.

 

[beryirish]

Hey....remember when ESPN had Greenberry as the nation's #84 receiver??

LOL.

Huge jump to #19 and after his showing at GridIron I could see him moving up yet again before his season starts.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I have to agree. Lots of guys look great in shorts. I've seen USC's guys, before an 8-5 season, blow e away with how unbelievable they looked in those 7 on 7 practices. I thought they'd win every game 50-0. Then they put the pads on and they were mediocre. I love what Greenbery is doing, just love it, but I'll wait to anoint him until we see it in football gear on a consistent basis.

Here's my premise: dominance in 7-on-7 tournaments against elite competition is a better predictor of Division I success than high school production, simply because it's closer to the actual level of competition and there are fewer variables to contend with.

It's obviously not a sure-fire indicator. These 7ON tourneys are a recent phenomenon as well, so there's probably not enough evidence to confirm my hypothesis anyway, but I think it's a reasonable one at this point in time.

 

[Rocket89]

Here's my premise: dominance in 7-on-7 tournaments against elite competition is a better predictor of Division I success than high school production, simply because it's closer to the actual level of competition and there are fewer variables to contend with.

It's obviously not a sure-fire indicator. These 7ON tourneys are a recent phenomenon as well, so there's probably not enough evidence to confirm my hypothesis anyway, but I think it's a reasonable one at this point in time.

I think that might be a fair thing to say.

I realize that these 7 on 7 tourney's are a lot like the AND 1 stuff in college basketball...a lot of flare, but not a whole lot of substance.

However, if you're clearly standing out as much as Grennberry is...that is probably a very good indicator that he is going to be awesome at the next level.

Sure, those 7 on 7's don't measure physicality (that much) or grit and determination, but it's not like most of these kids are really being challenged back in high school either with that stuff.

In other words, let's say Greenberry goes back to this H.S. and plays at like a B+ level of physicality, strength, and all of that. What does that really show when he's doing that against 99.99% of athletes who are nowhere near his size and ability?

In contrast, if you're playing A athletic football at these 7 on 7's, chances are you're going to be something special at the next level.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

My thoughts on this little debate are as follows:

I think there are those juniors who have regularly stood out among most others (obviously, with the amount of high schools in the country, you cannot fairly evaluate each one but I digress). I feel the recruiting services begin their evaluations with these players. Then, I would hope, the "top prospects" compete against each other in camps/tourneys and are re-evaluated and moved up/down the lists accordingly (and again after their senior season). I don't believe one way is better than the other. I feel a combination should be used to fairly "rate" a prospect. As we all know, none of this matters anyways because once in college, star ratings become irrelevant.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My thoughts on this little debate are as follows:

I think there are those juniors who have regularly stood out among most others (obviously, with the amount of high schools in the country, you cannot fairly evaluate each one but I digress). I feel the recruiting services begin their evaluations with these players. Then, I would hope, the "top prospects" compete against each other in camps/tourneys and are re-evaluated and moved up/down the lists accordingly (and again after their senior season). I don't believe one way is better than the other. I feel a combination should be used to fairly "rate" a prospect. As we all know, none of this matters anyways because once in college, star ratings become irrelevant.

That would truly be a great system for working out an accurate ranking, but I don't think it's there yet. The services currently don't like to move players up or down in ranking, and when they do, it's not by much. Why? Because inherent in such tweaking is an admission that the services didn't get it right the first time. (Credit to GITF for this theory)

To think that it's even possible to accurately rate hundreds of high school athletes on a first try is absurd, but the services seem to think that's what's expected of them.

I, for one, just want the most accurate ranking system possible. The more accurate the system, the more likely I am to pay attention to it and potentially pay to read about it.

Greenberry's rank as the 84th WR may have been justified based on his measurables and high school production to date. His stock has justifiably risen with each dominant tourney appearance against top competition; but the services still haven't adjusted his ranking accordingly because moving him to the top quickly might make them look stupid. (I personally think they look corrupt/ incompetent without moving him to top quickly, but maybe that's just me.)

Hopefully we're moving toward a system where little weight is placed on initial ratings, and regular ranking adjustments occur after major AA games and 7ON tourneys.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Hopefully we're moving toward a system where little weight is placed on initial ratings, and regular ranking adjustments occur after major AA games and 7ON tourneys.

AA games, yes. 7-on-7 tourneys, not so much. I say that because I agree with the others who believe playing w/o pads and in offenses that are not true to real life, game day, situations cannot produce an accurate measure of ones ability (with the exception of corners and safeties....sort of). IMO, defense is defense. Yes, there are certain calls and assignments, but you can get a pretty accurate read on a cornerback when he's showcasing his one-on-one coverage skills.

I love the AA games. The "best" against the "best" in a real game, with pads, after a week of practice. That should give the services plenty of ammo to re-evaluate prospects.

I do agree with your theory that prospects could regularly be moved up/down, without consequence, after each event (if one chooses a player truly deserves it...Greenberry for example).

Regardless, I think it's safe to assume not everyone is content with the current state of evaluating prospects. I don't feel there ever will be a fair or accurate system. There's just too many variables and too many athletes throughout the country.

 

[koonja]

Here's my premise: dominance in 7-on-7 tournaments against elite competition is a better predictor of Division I success than high school production, simply because it's closer to the actual level of competition and there are fewer variables to contend with.

It's obviously not a sure-fire indicator. These 7ON tourneys are a recent phenomenon as well, so there's probably not enough evidence to confirm my hypothesis anyway, but I think it's a reasonable one at this point in time.

I'm interested in why DGB isn't proven in your opinion? Is it simply because he doesn't compete in flag football tournaments? Or ecause it would be ludacris to put any stock into someone who's been called a top-5 player in America by every recruiting site, simply because they are recruiting sites?

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I'm interested in why DGB isn't proven in your opinion? Is it simply because he doesn't compete in flag football tournaments? Or ecause it would be ludacris to put any stock into someone who's been called a top-5 player in America by every recruiting site, simply because they are recruiting sites?

He probably just thinks that, because DGB isn't going out and standing in front of cameras and reporters.

Where Deontay is making a huge jump in the rankings, DGB is just a physical specimen. He doesn't necessarily have to prove himself. It easy to see that he is going to be the real deal.

 

[koonja]

He probably just thinks that, because DGB isn't going out and standing in front of cameras and reporters.

Where Deontay is making a huge jump in the rankings, DGB is just a physical specimen. He doesn't necessarily have to prove himself. It easy to see that he is going to be the real deal.

That works.

 

[IrishLax]

#6 WR, 4* on Scout.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Scouts always favors ND recruits...look at where they have Darby and look where everyone else has Darby...just saying

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

#6 WR, 4* on Scout.

Scout Quote:

It seems like every camp we went to, Bellflower (Calif.) St. John Bosco receiver Bryce Treggs and Fresno (Calif.) Washington Union receiver Deontay Greenberry were there trying to out-do each other. They played on the same team at the New Level 7on7, The Opening and Gridiron Kings, and would go back and forth as to who was better. It was that close. Both made major moves, with Treggs jumping into the Top 50 and five-star range with Greenberry just outside the top 50. This debate could go on all year.

 

[IrishLax]

Scouts always favors ND recruits...look at where they have Darby and look where everyone else has Darby...just saying

Historically, Scout has overrated ND recruits because they publish rankings earlier than Rivals, ESPN, etc. and ND recruits get the most pub. And, as in all rankings systems, once you're at the top it is pretty hard to tumble too far.

But saying Darby is by default overrated is crazy.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Big jump for Deontay. Would be surprised not to see the other services follow suit.