My opinion for what its worth

Sherm Sticky

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So who are you? Unless you are Lou or Ara, I almost find the hero worship and your self confidence in the hypothetical annoying. So you felt the roses had been tossed in front of you to grant IE with your presence? That you felt assured the posters on here are legit? That **** don't fly.
Bambi why are you hating. The guy brings legit inside information to the forum. He also has great interviews posted on Facebook with the recruits...I believe Chase Hounsell has been posting a blog for him on his FB page...take it easy bro.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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Bambi why are you hating. The guy brings legit inside information to the forum. He also has great interviews posted on Facebook with the recruits...I believe Chase Hounsell has been posting a blog for him on his FB page...take it easy bro.

I'm not hating. I have asked him and others for details on who he is and received no response. That is annoying. How do you know what is legit? Send me a pm and tell me who the guy is.

Like I said, unless the guy is Lou or Ara, I don't understand the hero worship. And I found his last statement to be a bit annoying.

EDIT:

I received links. Goodness. Great job Turning Point.
 
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TheTurningPoint

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I'm not hating. I have asked him and others for details on who he is and received no response. That is annoying. How do you know what is legit? Send me a pm and tell me who the guy is.

Like I said, unless the guy is Lou or Ara, I don't understand the hero worship. And I found his last statement to be a bit annoying and a bit prima donna ish.

EDIT:

I received links. Goodness. Great job Turning Point. But who the heck are you? :)

.:allhail:



sarcasm on the edit part?
 

BeauBenken

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No. Some IE posters sent me some links. Impressive work there TP.

So send me a private message and tell me who you are. I still sense some arrogance.

I'm not sure it was so much arrogance (of course I'm not him) but I bet he didn't want to post on some forum site that would just be garbo and waste his time.

EDIT: But I kinda want to know who the heck you are too, and how you get such good info.
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Sherm Sticky

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I'm not sure it was so much arrogance (of course I'm not him) but I bet he didn't want to post on some forum site that would just be garbo and waste his time.

EDIT: But I kinda want to know who the heck you are too, and how you get such good info.
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I'm thinking he is really Brian Kelly ;)
 

Rhode Irish

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Sometimes sources cannot be sources unless they are anonymous. If the info proves to be good, I can live without knowing the identity of the source.
 

IrishLax

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I received links. Goodness. Great job Turning Point. But who the heck are you? :)

TheCoon.jpg
 

Gencdaddy

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Interesting

Interesting

TheTurningPOint... I agree with you on most things.

I do like the fact that you talk about his chasing talent and not stars. The great college coaches' do that and I think it should be lauded. Greatest examples in my mind is Mark Ingram. :s: :s: :s:, 58th running back in the country, and he revived a part of the country where football was on the ropes with all the allegations in the 90s at Alabama. Les Miles did the same exact thing with Jacob Hester. *Fingers crossed on Cam McDaniel being Kelly's Ingram/Hester.* One thing that Kelly's good at two is dangling out offers. He knew that Perkins and Turner wanted offers but didn't offer them until either they earned it or they were needed. I think that is also important in recruiting because if you know that a kid would do anything to go to your school but you want a more talented player, keep talking to him and then fish out the offer. Both those guys nearly committed on the spot once they were given their offers. It's just one of those intangibles in the coaching world.

I don't agree with the fact that you think that the team could have rolled over dead after the Tulsa loss. I feel that the trust was already built by then and that the guys felt confident after good performances over (ailing) BC, Pitt, (valiant?) Western Michigan. I feel that the bigger games they would have rolled over on was the Michigan/MSU/Stanford losses. After the U of M game, they had all the reason in the world to call it quits and nurse their wounds. Giving up 500+ total yards to one player is crazy I don't care if it had been Alabama. It was just unacceptable. At the end of that MSU game, though we contained them to 4 total rushing yards in the 4th quarter, the entire defense looked whipped and the 4th quarter has been ND's bane for the past decade. Pile on the fake field goal and the embarrassment of Stanford walking all over us, that would have been the point where I feel you would have heard murmurs in the locker room. That was when Kelly I think needed to play the 'trust me I'm a winner' speech.

All that off-season conditioning made them better and they knew that and, minus the blowout to Navy, the team had all sorts of positive momentum going into that Tulsa game and were on the verge of reaching their zenith of fitness. Tulsa had a strong record coming into that game, though they had the athletic caliber of a Western Michigan. That game was a fluke and the guys knew that. Remind me the last time we have seen a blocked PAT for a 2 pt conversion, and your star quarterback go out injured, and missing most of your front seven due to the dirty style of play of the Naval Academy (IMO we should play Navy, then have the bye week, then play an average team before playing USC but again :twocents: ) all in the same game. The football gods had to have been MIA that day because there's no way you see that much bad luck. I see that game as that one 'rare' golf hole where you 4-putt and you walk away saying 'Glad that that next box isn't going to be that bad', and I think the players did the same. I chalk that one up as them saying 'though we're good, we cannot relinquish our grasp on greatness' and I think we will see this group not look past any opponents in the future.

One thing that I noticed over the season was that it took 6-8 weeks for the team to completely turn around from the detriments of Charlie's coaching. Diaco and his 'quick change' sprint drills were so taxing on the team that in interviews I read the players were completely stunned that they could be taxed that much in a summer workout. That had to have made the players respect the coaching staff that they could be worked that hard.

Also, sorry to nitpick, but Kamara was a pretty highly touted recruit coming in... :s: :s: :s: :s: and #8 receiver in the nation is nothing to scoff at. IMO he should have started all season opposite Floyd and save TJ Jones the year of eligibility. :twocents:
with all the :twocents:-ing I've been doing seems to have given me about a dime's worth. :p my bad. Just had a lot to say in response.

Again, solid post TheTurningPOint
 

NDinL.A.

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Also, sorry to nitpick, but Kamara was a pretty highly touted recruit coming in... :s: :s: :s: :s: and #8 receiver in the nation is nothing to scoff at. IMO he should have started all season opposite Floyd and save TJ Jones the year of eligibility. :twocents:
with all the :twocents:-ing I've been doing seems to have given me about a dime's worth. :p my bad. Just had a lot to say in response.

Again, solid post TheTurningPOint

Very nice rebuttal Genc.

Allow me to nitpick as well LOL. Kamara shouldn't have started all season because he got beaten out by TJ. One thing that we should all have learned from Sneaky Pete Carroll is that competition breeds success, and he told all high school seniors that if they signed with USC, they'd be given every opportunity to start from day 1. And he held true to that promise, and the players loved him for it. And h.s. seniors took notice.

TJ came into camp ready to play, worked his tail off, and beat out Kamara. I believe that by starting TJ, Kelly told all high school players that freshmen and ND can and will start or play major minutes if they are good enough and work hard enough. And TJ had a helluva half-season before he got hurt, so it's not like he was a liability out there. Preserving his year of eligibility could have hurt the team last year.

So I was good with TJ playing over Kamara because he earned it.
 

Gencdaddy

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So I was good with TJ playing over Kamara because he earned it.

Good point. He did earn it. But with all we had at receiver with Goodman and Kamara was it really worth it?
Also I don't think it's nice to compare Kelly and Pete Carroll... One's a filet mignon and the other's a greasy White Castle slider. :p
 

BeauBenken

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Good point. He did earn it. But with all we had at receiver with Goodman and Kamara was it really worth it?
Also I don't think it's nice to compare Kelly and Pete Carroll... One's a filet mignon and the other's a greasy White Castle slider. :p

And apparently, they're both delicious. :)
 

TheTurningPoint

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Kamara is one of those kids that just never got "ND". I mean he came in with a hell of a freshmen year....then was never heard from until Utah his last year. He had size, hands, and athletic ability...yet he never became anything more than..."oh **** Karama is having a good senior day, where has this been"....I mean his career is evident in his last game...which he was in New Jersey for. Not saying that he is a bad kid, or I dont like him....he just never put in that extra work, never had the dedication that is needed at D1 schools, much less at ND.

I agree with you to the point they could have folded earlier in the year after losing to bigger named teams...and yes that was terrible luck. Yet, the reason I say that....that game was the last game in October...ALL of the kids that were seniors and most juniors absolutely folded in November the previous 3 years. Yes, that has to do with the new coaching/conditioning that ND has now...But, look at November in previous years...they folded when things got dicey.

The play in the endzone hurt and probably wasnt a smart play call....but, it showed a couple things.
1. Coach Kelly is here to win, and will go for the win.
2. It set the tone for the team, even though it was late in the year. It showed them that they are expected to make plays, and if not, its on them, and their coach will stick up for them, yet the players still know its their responsibility.
 

Riddickulous

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The play in the endzone hurt and probably wasnt a smart play call....but, it showed a couple things.
1. Coach Kelly is here to win, and will go for the win.
2. It set the tone for the team, even though it was late in the year. It showed them that they are expected to make plays, and if not, its on them, and their coach will stick up for them, yet the players still know its their responsibility.

They were in field goal range with one of the nation's best kickers and down by a single point. The call was completely unneccesary. The only reason I didn't completely deride it was that it might not have gone so poorly if Rees hadn't thrown such a terrible ball.
 
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Buster Bluth

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The play in the endzone hurt and probably wasnt a smart play call...

It was a horrible call, actually. He has one of the best kickers in the country; it just wasn't smart. He could have "gone for the win" with a field goal, no? Only Rees' HORRIBLE throw made me not be furious. Instead I was just "well, just like Michigan and Michigan State, he's another 'could have won' game."
 

Whiskeyjack

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It's easy to criticize the call in retrospect, but I'd like to point out a few things:

(1) It would have been a ~40 yard kick into the wind with the game on the line. Even with Ruffer's amazing record, he had never been asked to do anything like that before, and some Kickers don't respond well to pressure.

(2) It was 3rd down. Kelly wasn't putting the game on Rees' arm.

(3) It took not one, but two contingent mistakes by Rees for that gut-wrenching ending to happen. He first had to make a bad decision by not throwing it away; if he hadn't forced a throw into double coverage, Ruffer would still have had his shot. Second, he had to under-throw a Fade route to Floyd; almost any other failure of execution just results in an incompletion.

I have to assume Kelly told Rees on the sideline-- right before that play-- to (1) throw it where only Floyd could get it; and (2) in the event Floyd was doubled, to throw it away. After such specific instructions, was it really unrealistic to expect Rees to execute?

I don't think it was a bad call.
 

Rhode Irish

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It's easy to criticize the call in retrospect, but I'd like to point out a few things:

(1) It would have been a ~40 yard kick into the wind with the game on the line. Even with Ruffer's amazing record, he had never been asked to do anything like that before, and some Kickers don't respond well to pressure.

(2) It was 3rd down. Kelly wasn't putting the game on Rees' arm.

(3) It took not one, but two contingent mistakes by Rees for that gut-wrenching ending to happen. He first had to make a bad decision by not throwing it away; if he hadn't forced a throw into double coverage, Ruffer would still have had his shot. Second, he had to under-throw a Fade route to Floyd; almost any other failure of execution just results in an incompletion.

I have to assume Kelly told Rees on the sideline-- right before that play-- to (1) throw it where only Floyd could get it; and (2) in the event Floyd was doubled, to throw it away. After such specific instructions, was it really unrealistic to expect Rees to execute?

I don't think it was a bad call.

Agree. Always easy to say it is a bad call after it doesn't work. Like you said, it was almost impossible to envision a scenario where the play would result in a pick. It took the perfect storm of miscues on the part of the QB.

The only thing I will say, though, is that I can see the point of view of those who say it was a true freshman QB with virtually zero experience, and the chance that a pass play could end in a turnover or a loss of yardage, however infinitesimal, is exactly why you don't take the risk. That is conservative approach, in my mind. Kelly is not that conservative, and I appreciate that. I'd rather have a guy that tries to make things happen, as long as he isn't reckless, and I don't think it was a reckless playcall. Just recklessly executed by the QB.
 
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HereComeTheIrish

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Agree. Always easy to say it is a bad call after it doesn't work. Like you said, it was almost impossible to envision a scenario where the play would result in a pick. It took the perfect storm of miscues on the part of the QB.

The only thing I will say, though, is that I can see the point of view of those who say it was a true freshman QB with virtually zero experience, and the chance that a pass play could end in a turnover or a loss of yardage, however infinitesimal, is exactly why you don't take the risk. That is conservative approach, in my mind. Kelly is not that conservative, and I appreciate that. I'd rather have a guy that tries to make things happen, as long as he isn't reckless, and I don't think it was a reckless playcall. Just recklessly executed by the QB.

Recklessly executed because he (Kelly) put a freshman quarterback in a situation to sink or swim. That type of mentality may fly at Cincy or pick your favorite MAC school, but at ND, you're expected to win. You kick the friggin' ball with your kicker who hadn't missed a kick all year and win the game. It's not about showing who's got the biggest boner at the porn convention....It's about who delivered the goods, or in this case, a win.

Hind sight being 20/20, that same qb finished pretty well. However, that day and going forward, that loss is squarely on Kelly's head. Friggin' dumb.
 

Rhode Irish

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I don't think Rees is a BCS caliber player, so maybe this isn't a fair comment, but no way should a BCS caliber QB throw that ball into that coverage in that situation. I don't really need to debate the rest of it. I think everything else I would say in response to your post is said either in my post or in Whiskey's before mine.

I will say that I am big-time in Kelly's corner. I think he has the perfect demeanor and attitude for what ND needs right now. Decisions like that one are part of the Kelly package. I don't have a problem with the call. Unless the play was designed to produce a wobbler into double coverage it is 99% on the QB.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Recklessly executed because he (Kelly) put a freshman quarterback in a situation to sink or swim. That type of mentality may fly at Cincy or pick your favorite MAC school, but at ND, you're expected to win. You kick the friggin' ball with your kicker who hadn't missed a kick all year and win the game. It's not about showing who's got the biggest boner at the porn convention....It's about who delivered the goods, or in this case, a win.

Hind sight being 20/20, that same qb finished pretty well. However, that day and going forward, that loss is squarely on Kelly's head. Friggin' dumb.

We took a time out before that play. Kelly pulls Rees aside and says, "We're gonna take a shot at the end zone if it's there; Fade route to Floyd. If he's not doubled, throw it where only he can get it. If he's doubled, throw it away. No need to be a hero here; just take what they give you."

You think it was "dumb" to expect Rees to follow those simple instructions? If it works, Kelly's a genius; his confidence in the players and aggressive play-calling is really transforming the team! But since it didn't work, it was obviously stupid to put a true freshman QB in that position. I mean, the probability of something terrible happening there had to be at least... what, 97%?

It seems like most fans are remarkably incapable of evaluating that call fairly in retrospect.
 

tankjeep

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We took a time out before that play. Kelly pulls Rees aside and says, "We're gonna take a shot at the end zone if it's there; Fade route to Floyd. If he's not doubled, throw it where only he can get it. If he's doubled, throw it away. No need to be a hero here; just take what they give you."

You think it was "dumb" to expect Rees to follow those simple instructions? If it works, Kelly's a genius; his confidence in the players and aggressive play-calling is really transforming the team! But since it didn't work, it was obviously stupid to put a true freshman QB in that position. I mean, the probability of something terrible happening there had to be at least... what, 97%?

It seems like most fans are remarkably incapable of evaluating that call fairly in retrospect.


agreed. all kelly was doing was taking a shot in the endzone and if it didn't work out (meaning that the play would've been incomplete), then we kick the field goal. at the time of the game, i saw nothing wrong with the play call. rees screwed up.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I'm not saying it's the worst call in the history of football, but it was a bad one.
 

UmphreakDomer

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kelly probably shouldve leaned on hughes, as he learned from here on out...got what he could in yardage....at least get between the hashs....taken a timeout....kicked and won.

the only other reason besides the points and counter points listed above is that tommy had thrown 3 picks already that game, right? wasnt it 4 to end the day with 4 td's?

so many what if's. the "what we know" is that the team responded and kelly did change to a slower smash mouth game, which worked. plus, the "d" bought in. "o"-line played better and everything ekse that has been discussed ad nauseum about "the call".
 

CarrollVermin

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We took a time out before that play. Kelly pulls Rees aside and says, "We're gonna take a shot at the end zone if it's there; Fade route to Floyd. If he's not doubled, throw it where only he can get it. If he's doubled, throw it away. No need to be a hero here; just take what they give you."

You think it was "dumb" to expect Rees to follow those simple instructions? If it works, Kelly's a genius; his confidence in the players and aggressive play-calling is really transforming the team! But since it didn't work, it was obviously stupid to put a true freshman QB in that position. I mean, the probability of something terrible happening there had to be at least... what, 97%?

It seems like most fans are remarkably incapable of evaluating that call fairly in retrospect.

The issue for me is that there were a few of these "hiccups" throughout the season. Most of them had to do with preparation. After Michigan the talk was, "we did not have a second QB ready." Also in that game, if we attempt and make a FG right before the half, a field goal would have won the game for us at the end. We were fooled against MSU (regardless if the play clock expired); after Stanford it was "we were not prepared for them dropping 8 men into a zone package." The same went for Navy...which brought us to Tulsa and the errant pass...run the ball, kick the ball, win the game.

There were too many of these throughout the season. In DI football, at any program, the "we were not prepared for that" excuse cannot fly. This is an area of concern for me going forward, and I am fully in Kelly's corner.
 

Rhode Irish

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The issue for me is that there were a few of these "hiccups" throughout the season. Most of them had to do with preparation. After Michigan the talk was, "we did not have a second QB ready." Also in that game, if we attempt and make a FG right before the half, a field goal would have won the game for us at the end. We were fooled against MSU (regardless if the play clock expired); after Stanford it was "we were not prepared for them dropping 8 men into a zone package." The same went for Navy...which brought us to Tulsa and the errant pass...run the ball, kick the ball, win the game.

There were too many of these throughout the season. In DI football, at any program, the "we were not prepared for that" excuse cannot fly. This is an area of concern for me going forward, and I am fully in Kelly's corner.

This is a fair criticism. I am not trying to make excuses for the staff, but I do think there is merit to the idea that a lot of the time that a staff would normally be devoting to preparation for "situational football" had to be spent teaching and implementing a new playbook and a new system last year. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that, only because the staff has proven itself competent in all other respects. If the same problems arise this year it will be a much bigger concern.
 

IrishLax

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Ugggggggggggggh we debated this a long time ago. Someone should go dig up the thread where I show the probability of an NFL kicker hitting a FG from that spot versus the probability of an interception.

It is 1% Kelly's fault for calling the play, and 99% Tommy Rees' fault for absolutely shitting the bed on that throw. Completely inexcusable how bad that throw was... I don't care if you're a JV QB who hasn't hit puberty yet you need to throw that ball longer and earlier.
 

Rhode Irish

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<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6DdbunO_tHw?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6DdbunO_tHw?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

I seriously tear up sometimes when I think about how big it was to see that blocked punt.

That game may have been the game to return us to glory.

Can anyone help me find this video on YouTube? I don't see a title in the video, it's embedded so no good link and a thorough search turned up nothing. 10M vBucks to whoever can hook me up.
 
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