Mauk vs. Kiel

[NDinL.A.]

Not to take away from your glowing victory over the rest of us mindless minions, but I cant keep letting you use this dumb "USC Model" argument. Carson Palmer started as a freshman as did Barkley. All of the others were #1 ranked QB's competing with eachother. I would be fine with having several #1 ranked QBs competing for the position, unfortunetely, Kiel would be the only one.

If you say Leinart wasnt a #1 again, I will have to assume you didn't see the link earlier. Scout had him as a 5*, #1 QB.

But as I said... I am completely wrong about everything and I should just admit that there is no way Kiel will ever pass two four star recruits, nor should he, even if he is better than them. Because that would be giving up 4 to 18 losses because that is what all 5* kids do...

wut wus i tinkin'....

Wow, you're getting worse with each post, but whatever, that's a you problem.

I love the fact that you ignored your statement about how all we'll need is a QB that won't made mistakes, but then you'll take the talented redshirt freshman over the talented veteran who fits the system perfectly and has 4 years in the system (Hendrix). Love it. Does that make ANY sense to anyone?

YOU brought up Carson Palmer, then got offended when it made you look bad. What was his record at USC until his senior year? 6-6, 5-7, 6-6. You'd be good with that at ND because he won a Heisman his senior year. Trust me when I say that 99% of ND fans are not with you on this. You also bring up Barkley, and USC has lost 4 and 5 games the last 2 years. So, to put it s l o w l y...when USC starts freshmen and sophomore QB's, they don't fare well, EVEN 5 STAR TALENTS. But when they start guys who are in their 3rd years or higher, they KILL IT. So again, yes, I'll take USC's model - when they do it the right way. And how many #1 QBs do you have a year??? JDB left a year early and was not considered a #1 QB nor did he play like one when he got to campus. He thought he'd come in and start right away but was he was FAR behind those other QBs and had to sit because of it.

Another thing, and I've been letting this go but damn, enough is enough...you are getting WAAAAAYYYYYY too caught up in rankings, as if that's the end all. Rankings are a decent guide and they undoubtedly help, but I could honestly give a sh!t about rankings - I'll look at what coaches think any day of the week over what some nerd in a studio thinks. Look at how Mustain did and some of the other top guys did. Pete Carroll looked at Mustain's 5 star, #1 recruit in the land ranking and basically told him to sit his *** behind the other 2 QBs. You're so caught up in Kiel's ranking and Golson and Hendrix being rated lower that you're completely missing what we have ALREADY seen with those 2 on campus. Watch the talent on Golson, and tell me he's a 3 star. Watch the talent on Hendrix, how he played against COLLEGE athletes, and tell me he's not a QB with immense talent that can help this team win a lot of games some day.

How you overlook those guys' talents just because some dorks rated them lower than your preference is beyond me. Higher rated guys tend to pan out more than lower rated guys, but we've SEEN the talent that these 2 guys already have, and for you to assume some h.s. junior is going to walk in and beat them out after one year in the system is naive. Kiel isn't going against guys like Frazier and Jones, who proved that they sucked. Kiel will be going against some talented dudes.

It's sad that you can't see what the majority of young QBs and their teams do, even after it's been laid out in front of you so plainly, but whatever. Take the victory in your mind and we'll both move along.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I get the feeling that you would want Kiel to sit on the bench behind Hendrix or Golson even if he was the much better quarterback, simply because how other freshmen did discourages you. The true freshman year is certainly too early for any 18 year old, but no one is advocating that... the redshirt freshman year is a completely different story. Sam Bradford, Colt McCoy, Aaron Murray, Andrew Luck... they all played great after getting a year to learn the system, and I think Kiel is just as talented as any of them. You're so worried about Notre Dame missing a step with having to resort to playing a young quarterback (a very valid concern), but you're not even entertaining the possibility that Kiel would have a very good chance at being the best player on the depth chart upon Crist's graduation... there's a reason why he's a unanimous five star while Hendrix and Golson were much lower rated in weaker years for quarterbacks. Not saying that he WILL be better than those two, but there's a very good chance of it.

And you're feeling would be completely wrong. I'd want the best guy to win the job, and I've stated that - repeatedly. I've also stated that if Kiel won the job as a young QB, percentages wise history shows that he has a greeater chance of struggling as would the team. (Just look at Landry Jones for yet another example.) This is not TX or Ohio St - when was the last time we had a great running game? I hope we do this year, but those guys did when they had young QBs, and those QBs could run like few others ever have. Kiel is not like that, and the comparison to Tebow is laughable. Kiel is a stud no doubt, but a runner like Tebow??? Please.

As for lower rated guys - see what I wrote above about my views on rankings.

And btw, Colt McCoy was a 3 star, and according to Wooly those guys can't beat out higher rated guys LOL. And Georgia lost 7 games this year and almost fired their coach with Aaron Murray at the helm. As for Andrew Luck, Stanford lost 5 games that year. Would you be cool with Notre Dame losing 5 games while we groomed a future stud??? Try being a mod here during those 5 losses. Notre Dame is a different breed my friend. Bradford was a beast.

In conclusion, stop listening to Wooly about my thoughts towards Kiel- I don't hate Kiel and I would LOVE to have him at ND. LOVE LOVE LOVE. But I would HOPE that he wouldn't have to start in his 1st 2 years on campus, just like I hope Hendrix and Golson do not have to start this year. Young QBs tend to struggle - they call it the most difficult position in sports for a reason. Throw in the magnitude of playing at Notre Dame??? The pressure is off the roof. I'd rather go with the talented veteran. Any coach would too.

 

[GreatGolson]

well im not a fancy city blogger like yall, all i wants to know is what is the level of competition the 2 qbs play in right now. Thanks

 

[woolybug25]

And you're feeling would be completely wrong. I'd want the best guy to win the job, and I've stated that - repeatedly. I've also stated that if Kiel won the job as a young QB, percentages wise history shows that he has a greeater chance of struggling as would the team. (Just look at Landry Jones for yet another example.) This is not TX or Ohio St - when was the last time we had a great running game? I hope we do this year, but those guys did when they had young QBs, and those QBs could run like few others ever have. Kiel is not like that, and the comparison to Tebow is laughable. Kiel is a stud no doubt, but a runner like Tebow??? Please.

As for lower rated guys - see what I wrote above about my views on rankings.

And btw, Colt McCoy was a 3 star, and according to Wooly those guys can't beat out higher rated guys LOL. And Georgia lost 7 games this year and almost fired their coach with Aaron Murray at the helm. As for Andrew Luck, Stanford lost 5 games that year. Would you be cool with Notre Dame losing 5 games while we groomed a future stud??? Try being a mod here during those 5 losses. Notre Dame is a different breed my friend. Bradford was a beast.

In conclusion, stop listening to Wooly about my thoughts towards Kiel- I don't hate Kiel and I would LOVE to have him at ND. LOVE LOVE LOVE. But I would HOPE that he wouldn't have to start in his 1st 2 years on campus, just like I hope Hendrix and Golson do not have to start this year. Young QBs tend to struggle - they call it the most difficult position in sports for a reason. Throw in the magnitude of playing at Notre Dame??? The pressure is off the roof. I'd rather go with the talented veteran. Any coach would too.

I guess Mirer must be one of the 1% that agree with me, along with all of the other people that have told me that they agree with me., your pool of people for this survey must have been pretty big. You keep circling yourself and trying to twist my (and sometimes even your own) words to build some bizarre argument for yourself. You also have an un-dying need to be "last word guy". You can continue to dog me, continue to tell people they shouldnt agree with me, and continue your need for the last word. None of those things bother me.

The reality of this situation is that I have already told you that I am happy getting off of this "how well #1 QB's do" argument, but YOU wont let it go. Other people (like Great Dayne, who will get an answer here in a sec) want to debate the actual topic of the thread, Mauk vs Kiel. So as I said, I am fine if you want proclaim yourself king of the interwebs and victor of all things #1 QB... for me... i'm fine with people re-reading what was written and deciding for themselves. I'm over it, and back to the topic at hand.

Go ahead and get your last word in. Relish your greatness.

 

[woolybug25]

well im not a fancy city blogger like yall, all i wants to know is what is the level of competition the 2 qbs play in right now. Thanks

From what I have been told, neither play elite tier prep football, but Kiel plays much better competition. Mauk plays in class IV, if that tells you anything.

If you are from Indy like your it says under your tard, you are close enough to go see Kiel play for yourself this year.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

Don't know why you'd bring up Georgia's seven loss season as if that is in any way Murray's fault... he was 14th in the country in passing efficiency. He was an absolute stud, and was clearly not one of the team's problems just like Clausen wasn't the reason why we lost 6 games his junior year.

But whatever, waaaaay too many straw men from both sides to continue arguing. I say you two just drop it and stop going in circles. I agree with Wooly's initial point: that top rated quarterbacks have a great shot at playing early (i.e. first two years on campus) and that Kiel would be no exception, so his qualms of being scared off by our depth are ill-founded when compared to Alabama and Oklahoma. This shouldn't be a discussion on how you think Kiel will do if he started early; let's just get the kid on campus first.

 

[ryno 24]

I live in Indiana and Kiel plays in the Indiana which is one of the strongest football areas in the country.... Class four A isnt bad but his regular season competition is pretty good

 

[NDinL.A.]

I guess Mirer must be one of the 1% that agree with me, along with all of the other people that have told me that they agree with me., your pool of people for this survey must have been pretty big. You keep circling yourself and trying to twist my (and sometimes even your own) words to build some bizarre argument for yourself. You also have an un-dying need to be "last word guy". You can continue to dog me, continue to tell people they shouldnt agree with me, and continue your need for the last word. None of those things bother me.

The reality of this situation is that I have already told you that I am happy getting off of this "how well #1 QB's do" argument, but YOU wont let it go. Other people (like Great Dayne, who will get an answer here in a sec) want to debate the actual topic of the thread, Mauk vs Kiel. So as I said, I am fine if you want proclaim yourself king of the interwebs and victor of all things #1 QB... for me... i'm fine with people re-reading what was written and deciding for themselves. I'm over it, and back to the topic at hand.

Go ahead and get your last word in. Relish your greatness.

LOL I love the fact that you continue to say that you're done with the argument and that I'm the one proclaiming victory and that I'm the "last word guy", yet you can NEVER stop. You're the EXACT same as I am in this argument, only you're blind to it. So be it. And again, where did I claim victory??? Keep putting words into my mouth though...it's very 'Michigan' of you, and it's something you seem to do quite often (and well might I add).

And where did I say people shouldn't agree with you? (Don't worry, I know you'll ignore that as well) I told Mirer not to listen to your words of "NDinL.A. thinks Kiel stinks" which I never said nor will I ever say. Should I have told him to listen to your lies?

Go read your posts dude. You say you are happy getting off the argument, but then you throw in another argument and expect it to be done. If you were off it, then stay off it and let it die. Instead you carry on, as do I.

So let's here all these people that have told you they agree with you. More sh!t you're making up? It's a discusion, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with me or you. If they 'told you' why not join the discussion. Of course I highly doubt people are going to agre with your premises that it's OK to compare the RB position to the QB position and that a ND QB needs to not make mistakes so let's go with the inexperienced QB over the exprienced QB (your words), but maybe I'm wrong. So let's here from those people. It's a spirited debate.

I'll end it with your own words to you:

So as I said, I am fine if you want proclaim yourself king of the interwebs and victor of all things #1 QB... for me... i'm fine with people re-reading what was written and deciding for themselves. I'm over it, and back to the topic at hand.

Go ahead and get your last word in. Relish your greatness.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Loud noises!

 

[NDinL.A.]

I live in Indiana and Kiel plays in the Indiana which is one of the strongest football areas in the country.... Class four A isnt bad but his regular season competition is pretty good

Strongest in comparison to what? In the country? I love Indiana but there's a reason ND is forced to recruit nationally, and it's not because they are anti-Indiana ballplayers. Believe me, if ND could focus most of its resources on local recruits like schools like USC, Florida, LSU, etc do, they'd do it.

Neither QB plays in a hotbed of talent, but Kiel's is better.

 

[jmurphy75]

So Vince Young taking over for Chance Mock, Barkley beating out two highly recruited QBs, Pryor beating out a seasoned veteran in Todd Boeckman and Carson Palmer beating out an upperclassmen to become only the second freshman starter in USC history (before Barkley) were all exceptions?

I'm not saying that there havent been #1 QB's that struggkled when they started early, but those players also played on bad teams that lacked talent at several positions. #1 QB's that have started early on good teams, have done very well (ie Barkley, Pryor, Young, Palmer). I would argue that Kiel would be stepping onto the field with a very good Notre Dame team that would not depend on him to be the star.

That's exactly why I said MOST and not all, college football is never about absolutes there are always exceptions. When I thought about it, there were more instances that popped into memory when a freshman QB started out of necessity and not that he was just a pure talent superstar that was able to walk into a program at 18 lean a new system, adjust to the speed of the game and just kill it. I appreciate the examples that you provided and get your point.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Don't know why you'd bring up Georgia's seven loss season as if that is in any way Murray's fault... he was 14th in the country in passing efficiency. He was an absolute stud, and was clearly not one of the team's problems just like Clausen wasn't the reason why we lost 6 games his junior year.

But whatever, waaaaay too many straw men from both sides to continue arguing. I say you two just drop it and stop going in circles. I agree with Wooly's initial point: that top rated quarterbacks have a great shot at playing early (i.e. first two years on campus) and that Kiel would be no exception, so his qualms of being scared off by our depth are ill-founded when compared to Alabama and Oklahoma. This shouldn't be a discussion on how you think Kiel will do if he started early; let's just get the kid on campus first.

I brought it up b/c it goes to my point that teams normally don't do well with young QBs at the helm. That was my entire point, and I'd hate to see ND have to go through that. People say now that they'd be cool with it as long as we get the number guy, until ND loses 4-5 games and all hell breaks lose.

And fyi, I never disagreed with Wooly's assertion that top-rated QBs have a chance to start early. I agreed whole-heartedly. I just said that I hope Kiel wouldn't have to, because, well, that's been hashed and rehashed. Wooly didn't like that part of my argument.

 

[woolybug25]

That's exactly why I said MOST and not all, college football is never about absolutes there are always exceptions. When I thought about it, there were more instances that popped into memory when a freshman QB started out of necessity and not that he was just a pure talent superstar that was able to walk into a program at 18 lean a new system, adjust to the speed of the game and just kill it. I appreciate the examples that you provided and get your point.

Thanks for the positive dialogue, dude.

To get the conversation back on track, I would be interested in your views on this?

If we looked into a crystal ball and found at that Hendrix/Golson became the next big thing and no recruit in this class ended up starting for Notre Dame until their Senior season, what do you think our recruiting strategy should be?

A) All chips in for Kiel. Tell Gunner that he is our #1 target and we will wait for him to make his decision before accepting any offers from other QBs. If Kiel ended up choosing somewhere else, we pick up the next best QB that accepts. Options could include Mauk, Miles and Morin. Assume (not a big stretch, he has made it obvious) that Morin would accept a scholarship in any situation.

B) Offer equal scholarship opportunity to both Mauk and Kiel and let them know that we are taking the first guy and would take both if the opportunity arose. Explain that they are 1A and 1B, and we will be happy with either.

C) Focus on Mauk and assume that Kiel will go somewhere else either way. Put all of our eggs in this basket with the assumption that we have a real shot at Mauk and none with Kiel.

D) Check to see if Diaco has any eligibility left.


Now that you have chosen what you think our strategy should be, look back into that crystal ball and answer this:

Do you think that the difference in potential between a Senior Mauk and Senior (fill in non-Kiel QB) is equal or better than the difference between a Senior Kiel and Senior Mauk?

My answer to this was no. I think that in the Kiel's worst scenario (in his eyes at least), waiting to play, he would be in a position to be a huge player for Notre Dame. When I gaze into that ball and I see Mauk.... I don't see that same potential. That is where my opinion on this come from. Thoughts?

 

[BeauBenken]

When did Indiana become a strong football area? I'm pretty sure Ohio > Indiana when it comes to high school football. On a national level, I'd think that's saying something considering Ohio falls a good distance behind the big 3 of Florida, California, and Texas. Although I'd think Indiana is far from awful...we're just kinda, eh, mediocre.

 

[woolybug25]

When did Indiana become a strong football area? I'm pretty sure Ohio > Indiana when it comes to high school football. On a national level, I'd think that's saying something considering Ohio falls a good distance behind the big 3 of Florida, California, and Texas. Although I'd think Indiana is far from awful...we're just kinda, eh, mediocre.

Ohio is much better High School Football, but Mauk plays clas IV and Kiel plays in one of the more competitive areas of Indiana and is class 4A. I don't know how that reflects necessarily though.

 

[Old Man Mike]

you guys must be awfully young to enjoy this....

 

[johnnykillz]

I'm 31 and about to "luke."

 

[NDinL.A.]

you guys must be awfully young to enjoy this....

Ha ha... normally I would have no time to engage in such a lonnnnnnng debate, but my wife is back in South Bend and I'm on Easter Break and I had a free day, so I played along. Made time fly by...but yes, looking back, an epic waste of time that got nothing of any real-world significance accomplished!

 

[dshans]

I'd just like to know why some innocuous posts – particularly mine (and one by the WoolyBullyOne (I think) – were removed from this thread.

Heck, even Kneutered Pooper got in a Rep before my witty repartee was dissolved. Shoot, my "translation"was even used (without attribution) in an edited [by NDinL.A.] (not a subsequent) post.

With all the rancor being exhibited here, I find it incredible that an attempt at clarification with levity was "disappeared."

Sheesh!

What say ye, NDinL.A.

 

[woolybug25]

I'd just like to know why some innocuous posts – particularly mine (and one by the WoolyBullyOne (I think) – were removed from this thread.

Heck, even Kneutered Pooper got in a Rep before my witty repartee was dissolved. Shoot, my "translation"was even used (without attribution) a in subsequent post.

With all the rancor being exhibited here, I find it incredible that an attempt at clarification with levity was "disappeared."

Sheesh!

What say ye, NDinL.A.

What post of mine was deleted? Maybe something got messed up when some of the thread was transfered from the Maty Mauk thread.

I'm 29, does that make me old or young... I feel old.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I'd just like to know why some innocuous posts – particularly mine (and one by the WoolyBullyOne (I think) – were removed from this thread.

Heck, even Kneutered Pooper got in a Rep before my witty repartee was dissolved. Shoot, my "translation"was even used (without attribution) a in subsequent post.

With all the rancor being exhibited here, I find it incredible that an attempt at clarification with levity was "disappeared."

Sheesh!

What say ye, NDinL.A.

Thy were on a different thread which I moved over here. Didn't mean to delete those posts though. I'll look into.

 

[SLCIRISH]

Back to reality, watch a QB from out west, be the one to sign, maybe from California, Colorado, I have read of at least 2 who want to be Irish.

 

[NCDomer]

NDinLA - My whole point is that #1 QB's struggles arent because of when they become the starter, it is in relation to how good their team is, just like any other position. But you are going to just make argument to make it, so I am fine with just letting you have your opinion and i'll have mine. You just continue to go in circles on this.

Under your mindset, we should pass on Marshall, because god forbid, he may start early.... and we know how young #1 rbs fair (another misnomer).

btw... I know that you are the resident USC researcher and all..but... yes he was...

Scout.com: Matt Leinart Profile

That ranking is his projected NFL draft ranking among QBs.
CNNSI.com - College Football Recruiting - Recruiting Watch: Top 100 seniors - Monday January 15, 2001 06:13 PM and ESPN.com - RECRUITING - Tom Lemming's Top 25 QBs has Leinart as the #7 QB for that class.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Concerning deleting dshans posts: every right-thinking board poster would agree to that. The man is obviously a rabble-rousing whacko from the 60s. And Irish to boot!!

 

[woolybug25]

That ranking is his projected NFL draft ranking among QBs.
CNNSI.com - College Football Recruiting - Recruiting Watch: Top 100 seniors - Monday January 15, 2001 06:13 PM and ESPN.com - RECRUITING - Tom Lemming's Top 25 QBs has Leinart as the #7 QB for that class.

Just because you found someone that didn't rank him as #1 doesn't take away from the fact that Scout had him as their #1 QB.

Why are you bringing this back up anyway? This is a dead subject and you are just trying to stir the pot.

 

[johnnykillz]

woolybug,

You have a stick in your hand too, boy.

 

[woolybug25]

woolybug,

You have a stick in your hand too, boy.

and I will bonk him over the head with it if I have to. :swordfigh

 

[johnnykillz]

Not quite the vSmilie I was thinking of:


:zthinking




:awesomewo

It's not gay if his ear has a vagina.

Just saying.

 

[johnnykillz]

So,

8==> or ()?

Wait, wrong thread.

 

[dshans]

Concerning deleting dshans posts: every right-thinking board poster would agree to that. The man is obviously a rabble-rousing whacko from the 60s. And Irish to boot!!

Darn tootin', consarnit! Hot dang, I'm here to burn things up!

I thank you for your support ... I think.

As I recall, at that point in time ... oh, never mind.

I simply used my gobbledygook app (available only in my head) to translate a comment. NDin L.A. apparently edited the original post using my version and ditched my post and that of (I think) Woolybugger where he queried "Wut?"

No biggie, jus' a li'l fun.

As my sweet Irish grandmother would say, "He's a bit mugalore." [That's in reference to me]