Is anyone else really miffed and pissed off at basketball rankings?

[dshans]

Just hoping for opening round games in Chicago so I can see them while visiting over St. Patties.

Time for my annual rant concerning St. Patrick's Day. "Patrick" is the latin version of Paddy or Padaig. The "proper" reference would be "St. Paddy's Day." "Patty" is a nickname for Patricia. I'm not sure where "Pattie" would fit in, other than as a possible description of a disk of ground beef.

All the hoopla over St. Patrick's Day is an Irish-American concoction. No real complaints, but I learned many years ago to stay out of the bars and off the roads on March 17th. I'm Irish 24/7 so I cede that day to the wannabe amateurs and arseholes.

The corned beef and cabbage tradition is also an American-Irish construct. Cabbage fits, but corned beef does not. It came about in New York City when Irish immigrants came into contact with Jewish immigrants – and a source of inexpensive beef, something reserved for Brits in Ireland for a long, long time. Anything lamb or salmon related would be more "traditional." Oh, and bud-ae-dahs.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I had a great-uncle, Timothy Patrick. Despite being 6'6" in the late 1800s Chicago, he was a gentle soul [actually did some of the sculpture work on the facade of the Museum of Science and industry] but he might still have slugged you if you'd called him "Patty"----it was Paddy, as any good Irishman knows.

And, most of our "ethnic" food comes from the poor folk, making due with the lower end of the food chain as best they can. To that I say, three cheers and thank God for BBQ Ribs!!!

 

[NDPhilly]

Updated rankings has ND 7

 

[InKellyITrust]

Nice

 

[InKellyITrust]

It was nice seeing them jump Texas and San Diego St. I didn't expect Purdue to jump ND but it is what it is. Purdue has Illinois and Iowa left so if ND takes care of business this week with what would be two impressive wins over Nova and UConn then ND should jump them in the rankings. Double bye in the Big East tournament is the most important thing right now.

 

[IrishLax]

It was nice seeing them jump Texas and San Diego St. I didn't expect Purdue to jump ND but it is what it is. Purdue has Illinois and Iowa left so if ND takes care of business this week with what would be two impressive wins over Nova and UConn then ND should jump them in the rankings. Double bye in the Big East tournament is the most important thing right now.

Yup. I just want a win at home against a stumbling Villanova. I'm OK with a UConn loss on the road. Get the double bye, win the first round BE tourney game, lock up a #2/#3 seed and games in Chicago.

 

[dshans]

I had a great-uncle, Timothy Patrick.

I raise me pint in a toast to your great uncle. When my wife and I decided to have a child we discussed possible names. Timothy Patrick was our choice for a boy – it tripped liltingly off the tongue ... "Timothy Patrick Shanahan." As it turned out my twin sister beat me to the punch in having a boy and they named him Timothy. So we went with Patrick Reed, which were his respective grandfather's middle names. Not a bad combination, all things considered.

When he was quite young his first attempts to say his name came out sounding like "Packy," so that was his nickname for a few years. [I found out on a trip to Ireland that it was, in fact, an accepted nickname for Patrick, though not nearly as common as Paddy.]

The nickname came to a screeching halt when my parents' were visiting from Florida and my father crouched down and asked Packy to "come over here." The wee lad, with blazing red hair, narrowed eyes and hands firmly planted on his hips defiantly announced "I not Packy, I Patrick Reed Shanahan!"

He caved to "Pat" in high school when the sheer number of classmates and teachers using the sobriquet overwhelmed him. In college he proudly accepted "Seamus" as his "handle."

Sorry for the long post ... but what the hell, I'm Irish!

As for me, I'm Richard, but I've been a real **** all my life.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Yes, according to a computer formula. Not according to common sense and looking at the actual schedule. I've debated this idea with IL/ESPN minds in the lacrosse world for hours on end around selection time for that sport and at the end of the day we agreed it just comes down to a choice of trusting: A) flawed human perception, B) a really basic and flawed formula or C) a blend of both. Almost everyone agrees on a healthy blend of both... and here's to hoping the selection committee this march does a fair job seeding us.

Anyways, I got my brief rage at Gottlieb (sp?) out of my system. The beauty of the tourney is that everyone who gets in gets a shot. Just hoping for opening round games in Chicago so I can see them while visiting over St. Patties.

The polls are so much more flawed than RPI. RPI has no bias and just takes pure results. It doesn't take into account that the Big East is generally overrated and MWC is underrated. It doesn't take anything on name recognition. BYU and SDST have played fairly tough schedules.

 

[IrishLax]

The polls are so much more flawed than RPI. RPI has no bias and just takes pure results. It doesn't take into account that the Big East is generally overrated and MWC is underrated. It doesn't take anything on name recognition. BYU and SDST have played fairly tough schedules.

This is just ignorant. Sorry, not trying to be a **** here, but a statement like that just shows a complete misunderstanding of just how flawed RPI is. You do realize that the RPI is a totally half-assed formula and that the 25-50-25 breakdown could be easily tweaked to more accurately reflect team strength/probability of success/power ranking, right? Simple correlative analysis between RPI and team success has shown repeatedly that polls are more predictive of success than RPI. With that being said, more advanced computer formulas are typically more predictive than polls. I just want to make sure everyone here knows the RPI is totally archaic and flawed beyond belief. It's not magic and it certainly wasn't created by any geniuses. Especially in sports like basketball where there is an exorbitant number of teams and the teams don't share enough OOC opponents, the RPI totally falls apart.

Hypothetical Example:
Conference A features the Miami Heat, Boston Celtics, LA Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, and Washington Wizards. Conference B features San Diego St., Cal Tech and 4 other schools. Each conference plays 10 games within themselves. The Heat go 10-0, SDSU goes 10-0, Wizards go 0-10 and Cal Tech goes 0-10.

In RPI the Heat = SDSU and Wizards = Cal Tech. Clearly, to the eye ball test, we would say the Heat are a lot better than SDSU and the Wizards are a lot better than Cal Tech... but RPI doesn't know that. Why? Because they don't share opponents.

While you might think this is grossly exaggerated, it really hits to the core of the problem. When teams don't share opponents, you cannot accurately compare them in RPI. That's why the MWC has an inflated RPI and the BE has a deflated RPI. You're going to tell me the MWC is underrated when the second worst team in the BE took the best team in the MWC (BYU) to double OT? And have you not paid attention to how the Missouri Valley Conference broke the RPI a couple years ago and had 4 teams with top 20ish RPIs because they didn't play any quality OOC opponents?

In general, people have to get it through their heads that just because the RPI is blind doesn't mean it's accurate. It's been proven time and time again to be horrible and that is why the NCAA uses it as only a very small piece of their evaluation.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

none of this matters. it's all just posturing during the regular season. everything comes down to the big dance. it's annoying that sdsu is ranked so high, but if they beat us in the tourney then what can you say? if duke or texas win it all, what can you say? sure the early rounds would be easier for them, but the sweet 16 on is brutal competition.

it's not about being right about how good a team is and how high they should be ranked. we're making the tourney, easily, so it's irrelevant. praise the glory of single elimination tournaments for clearing the air on such debates. granted, the analysis of regular season rankings relies on hindsight, but the tourney is the final word.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

But a tourney is just a tourney. Then the worst officiatiing, most biased, most ego centric group of refs take over the game. I don't trust college basketball. Sorry.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

But a tourney is just a tourney. Then the worst officiatiing, most biased, most ego centric group of refs take over the game. I don't trust college basketball. Sorry.

I've got a feeling you support a mid-major team. I know that feeling of being screwed by refs.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

But a tourney is just a tourney. Then the worst officiatiing, most biased, most ego centric group of refs take over the game. I don't trust college basketball. Sorry.

not really. the tourney decides the national champion. national rankings are just rankings. they don't mean anything.

 

[North Buffalo Irish]

10/11 SDSU reminds me of 09/10 New Mexico. New Mexico slipped by Montana in the 1st Round and got embarrassed by Washington in their next game. As soon as SDSU runs into a quality opponent in the tournament, they will lose. Whether that's in the First Round or the Sweet Sixteen remains to be seen, but they are not an elite team.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

not really. the tourney decides the national champion. national rankings are just rankings. they don't mean anything.

The tourney dedides the tourney champ.

I have no anwer.

But college officiating can alter the game.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I've got a feeling you support a mid-major team. I know that feeling of being screwed by refs.

BBall is a different beast. All you need is six guys, and refs on your side.

And quit pointing those two fingers while reminding me of my anus.

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm with the Deer on this one... so hard to take anything that happens now seriously knowing that no matter what over half the country will still just crap shoot the thing in a six game tourney... and it is still basketball to begin with... the refs do play to big of a part in general ... in reality CBB is nothing more than a one month gambling phenomenon

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

The tourney dedides the tourney champ.

I have no anwer.

But college officiating can alter the game.

To be fair, all of the Butler games were officiated rather fairly last year and we made the national championship game. Zubak could get away with murder but besides that it was a petty normal tournament.

 

[SLCIRISH]

Who really cares about SDSU, they are a 4 seed, the debate should be whether BYU, with the nations best player, should get the number one out west, or will they screwed and it goes to a team from the east.

 

[SLCIRISH]

It shouldnt matter what seed the Irish get, they are really playing the best ball in the country right now.

 

[SLCIRISH]

Back to BYU, they are the best team in the west! They should get the number one seed out there.

 

[InKellyITrust]

Hansbrough is on PTI today at 5:30.

 

[IrishLax]

Hansbrough is on PTI today at 5:30.

That interview was so Ben Hansbrough. All business and confidence. Pleeeeeeeease let us get a good tourney draw so we can do some damage.

 

[InKellyITrust]

Hansbrough is on PTI today at 5:30.

I didn't know how many people had an opportunity to tune in, so I thought I'd take notes on what he had to say:

-He said it was good for him growing up with Tyler. Besides the dental bills, Tyler has helped mold his competitive spirit.
-Ben's oldest brother, Greg, has the biggest heart that he's ever seen. He was diagnosed with a brain tumor and was told that he'd never walk again. He runs marathons now.
-Brey told him that sometimes his intensity can rub people the wrong way and he changed himself to help his teammates
-When asked about the season and the upcoming Big East Tournament, he said that their will has carried the team and they're very proud of the fact that they've only lost 2 consecutive games only once this season in such a tough conference.
-He was asked who would win in a 3 point contest between him and Jon Diebler, who made 10 3's last night against Penn State. Hansbrough said that Jon is a very good shooter, but he would beat Diebler.
-He was asked about Brey's mock turtleneck and said that Brey has a very contagious personality. He finds it funny that students are dressing up like him at the games.

 

[IrishLax]

Doug Gottlieb.... ultimate Notre Dame hater?

Ahead of Notre Dame in his power rankings he has:

St. Johns, Kansas State, Texas and North Carolina.

NCAA College Basketball Power Rankings - NCAA Basketball - ESPN

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

That wouldn't be surprising because of the circumstances.

 

[InKellyITrust]

As much as he loathes our team, he picked Brey as Coach of the Year.

 

[IrishMoore1]

It doesn't matter. We gonna get knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round like we do every year.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I know the following is a Pro game, but good example of why I don't like watching BBall. Refs have WAY too much to do with the outcome. I remember a game I watched from a hotel. ND vs. someone in a playoff (B.E.?...NCAA?...) within the last, um 8 years. ND was tit for tat, then refs took over. It was blatant. Team walked off the court as a unit before clock ran out. Ref STOLE the game from ND.
YouTube - The Worst Foul Ever - Joey Crawford - Suns vs Blazers Playoffs 2010 [HD]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vaZIAXJJDKQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Old Man Mike]

It's hard to disagree about the "inadequacies" involved with BBall refereeing. I had to do some VERY amateurish summer league reffing once, and no matter how "on the job" I was, there were too many body parts flying about at too high a speed to catch it all. Actually, "charge" vs "block" was easier than most.

The good refs, I think, still fail, but not for the prejudices that we think [except in the pros where there are clear "economic-related" biases about stars]. The typical college game is reffed properly when "slow" and gets into the realm [unfortunately] of "instincts" when fast and violent. That's why coaches deliberately taking technicals often works.

The refs get one more instinctive bias stuck into their heads by that. The game demands too fast a call to cooly decide to screw someone. But that doesn't mean that the refs will not screw up themselves and subconsciously "lean" one way for part of a game. This doesn't ameliorate Neutered's correct observation that there is a non-athletic and uncontrollable wildcard caused by this, which everybody wishes could be fixed, but it's a little different take on it.