Russia Invades Ukraine

[Bishop2b5]

...continuing the arm Ukrainians to fight them? Is this is a serious question?

This isn't a football game. There isn't a time limit. No respected outlet has suggested that Russia is on their way to victory. They need the US to stop their support of Ukraine for them to obtain victory. This isn't complicated.

Do you get that the Ukrainians are running out of men to continue this fight? When that happens, Russia takes the entire country. A negotiated peace now lets them keep most of it so that doesn't happen. I have no love for Putin and what he's done, but we're talking about reality here, not some "how we want it to be" fairy tale. If Ukraine doesn't reach a peace deal soon, no amount of rearming them will save them when they run out of men before the end of 2025, and they'll lose everything.

 

[TracyGraham]

Do you get that the Ukrainians are running out of men to continue this fight? When that happens, Russia takes the entire country. A negotiated peace now lets them keep most of it so that doesn't happen. I have no love for Putin and what he's done, but we're talking about reality here, not some "how we want it to be" fairy tale. If Ukraine doesn't reach a peace deal soon, no amount of rearming them will save them when they run out of men before the end of 2025, and they'll lose everything.

So does that mean Putin is trying to take as much territory as possible? I thought he was only trying to take the Russian areas and rid the country of Nazis. Crap, we need to stop this guy. Quick, someone please help support Ukraine!

 

[TracyGraham]

Do you get that the Ukrainians are running out of men to continue this fight? When that happens, Russia takes the entire country. A negotiated peace now lets them keep most of it so that doesn't happen. I have no love for Putin and what he's done, but we're talking about reality here, not some "how we want it to be" fairy tale. If Ukraine doesn't reach a peace deal soon, no amount of rearming them will save them when they run out of men before the end of 2025, and they'll lose everything.

This is why I decided to switch to the republican party. Because everyone knows the best way to stop an aggressive opponent is to throw up the white flag and give them what they want now. Remember when Rome stopped their downfall by bribing the barbarians? Thank god they knew how to handle that one.

 

[GATTACA!]

This is why I decided to switch to the republican party. Because everyone knows the best way to stop an aggressive opponent is to throw up the white flag and give them what they want now. Remember when Rome stopped their downfall by bribing the barbarians? Thank god they knew how to handle that one.

Yeah but what if Russia double pinky promises never to try and invade again? I think they will certainly adhere to this peace treaty. Especially without any security guarantees from the United States.

 

[Bishop2b5]

This is why I decided to switch to the republican party. Because everyone knows the best way to stop an aggressive opponent is to throw up the white flag and give them what they want now. Remember when Rome stopped their downfall by bribing the barbarians? Thank god they knew how to handle that one.

I get that pushing Ukraine to accept a peace deal that lets Russia keep the territory they stole is a bitter pill to swallow. I 100% agree with that. What is your workable, realistic alternate solution, though? It's one thing to say, "I don't agree with your position." It's another to present a better one that will actually work. The US and the European NATO countries are not going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine and get into a shooting war with Russia. We can continue to pour money and arms into Ukraine, but all indications are that they will run out of men to continue the fight within a year (or less). At that point, Russia can then take all of Ukraine, which they see as historically part of the Russian empire and undoubtedly want to reclaim. So, what's your solution?

No amount of support and weaponry will stop Russia when Ukraine runs out of troops in the near future. Just continuing to throw money and arms at the situation only delays the inevitable and continues getting people killed. A peace deal now stops the killing and lets Ukraine keep most of its territory. Again, I hate the idea of letting Russia keep any of the land it stole, but what better, realistic, workable solution do you have?

 

[ab2cmiller]

This is why I decided to switch to the republican party. Because everyone knows the best way to stop an aggressive opponent is to throw up the white flag and give them what they want now. Remember when Rome stopped their downfall by bribing the barbarians? Thank god they knew how to handle that one.

Yeah but what if Russia double pinky promises never to try and invade again? I think they will certainly adhere to this peace treaty. Especially without any security guarantees from the United States.

So what exactly would you like to see happen?

Continue arming Ukraine at the same levels as we have?

If not, what would you do different?

 

[TracyGraham]

So what exactly would you like to see happen?

Continue arming Ukraine at the same levels as we have?

If not, what would you do different?

Fuck yes keep arming and even step it up!! If we bail, we potentially cost ourselves an exponentially higher amount of penalty 10-20 years down the road!! Come on guys, It's like skipping your work now is cetainly going to be more painful in the future. We save 100 billion from Ukraine but will lose 100 trillion on japan/korea.
This war does not just cost us arms/weapons, it cost us our future reputation and the weight of our threat.

 

[calvegas04]

I get that pushing Ukraine to accept a peace deal that lets Russia keep the territory they stole is a bitter pill to swallow. I 100% agree with that. What is your workable, realistic alternate solution, though? It's one thing to say, "I don't agree with your position." It's another to present a better one that will actually work. The US and the European NATO countries are not going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine and get into a shooting war with Russia. We can continue to pour money and arms into Ukraine, but all indications are that they will run out of men to continue the fight within a year (or less). At that point, Russia can then take all of Ukraine, which they see as historically part of the Russian empire and undoubtedly want to reclaim. So, what's your solution?

What peace plan? The only thing that has been thrown around is Ukraine signing their minerals away to the US. Everyone keeps mentioning peace but has russia even mentioned they would stop illegally attacking Ukraine?

 

[TracyGraham]

I get that pushing Ukraine to accept a peace deal that lets Russia keep the territory they stole is a bitter pill to swallow. I 100% agree with that. What is your workable, realistic alternate solution, though? It's one thing to say, "I don't agree with your position." It's another to present a better one that will actually work. The US and the European NATO countries are not going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine and get into a shooting war with Russia. We can continue to pour money and arms into Ukraine, but all indications are that they will run out of men to continue the fight within a year (or less). At that point, Russia can then take all of Ukraine, which they see as historically part of the Russian empire and undoubtedly want to reclaim. So, what's your solution?

No amount of support and weaponry will stop Russia when Ukraine runs out of troops in the near future. Just continuing to throw money and arms at the situation only delays the inevitable and continues getting people killed. A peace deal now stops the killing and lets Ukraine keep most of its territory. Again, I hate the idea of letting Russia keep any of the land it stole, but what better, realistic, workable solution do you have?

you think Russia want to kill Ukrainians to the last man? How is that logical? That would destroy their narrative that they want to unite their brothers and denazify Ukraine. Even Giddyup will have to reconsider his support for Putin if that happened (Well maybe I'm being optimistic...)I imagine if Ukraine continues to not break, eventually Russia will rethink.
My point being, if Russia actually went to the extreme of exterminating every fighting adult and completely taking over Ukraine, they would be hanging themselves. They would become complete pariahs like they never knew. It would be a huge loss disguised as a win. So please stop buying that silly excuse. If you want to claim it is about saving $, I can buy it for a second, but want to point out that it will cost exponential $$$$ in the future.

This is the moment of truth!!! Putin is banking on his boy to bail him out. If we keep supporting Ukraine, Putin loses that option and has to reconsider. If we pull out the rug now, Putin automatically wins without having to weigh options.

 

[TracyGraham]

Another thing to consider. Is this when we become England? Is this when America retreats and dies? When we go into isolationism and just focus on our region? That never works out. Its like early retirement. It sounds great but your brain just melts into degeneration.
If we want to stay strong, we can. If we want to retreat, we certainly can go that route too. I believe its psychological. If you want to be proud and promote American exceptionalism we still can, but we will surely wither if we start to pull back.

 

[calvegas04]

 

[Sea Turtle]

Another thing to consider. Is this when we become England? Is this when America retreats and dies? When we go into isolationism and just focus on our region? That never works out. Its like early retirement. It sounds great but your brain just melts into degeneration.
If we want to stay strong, we can. If we want to retreat, we certainly can go that route too. I believe its psychological. If you want to be proud and promote American exceptionalism we still can, but we will surely wither if we start to pull back.

We have been isolationist before. And each time a WW broke out.

I don't mind continuing to run things in the west but we do need a bit more help from our allies. Monetary and military.

And it also means that our allies need to play ball. If the US feels that they need, say even the northern quarter of Greenland, to keep north America AND Europe safe from Russia and China dominating the arctic, then Europe needs to take that into consideration.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

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The US is the bad guys.

 

[BilboBaggins]

On November 1st, The NY Times wrote an article saying the Pentagon's assessment was that Ukraine had enough soldiers to last another 6 to 12 months. So there kind of is a "time limit".

I just read the article and did not come away with that assessment. And since it was four months ago, you'd think there would be a host of articles saying that Uktaine is weeks away from imploding.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Do you get that the Ukrainians are running out of men to continue this fight? When that happens, Russia takes the entire country. A negotiated peace now lets them keep most of it so that doesn't happen. I have no love for Putin and what he's done, but we're talking about reality here, not some "how we want it to be" fairy tale. If Ukraine doesn't reach a peace deal soon, no amount of rearming them will save them when they run out of men before the end of 2025, and they'll lose everything.

Oh please. Surrender harder.

There are no respected institutions who are suggesting that Russia has the ability to conquer Ukraine. None. There are no respected institutions that Russia has the ability to then occupy and pacify Ukraine. None.

Just keep looking for a reason to roll over.

 

[BilboBaggins]

I get that pushing Ukraine to accept a peace deal that lets Russia keep the territory they stole is a bitter pill to swallow. I 100% agree with that. What is your workable, realistic alternate solution, though? It's one thing to say, "I don't agree with your position." It's another to present a better one that will actually work. The US and the European NATO countries are not going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine and get into a shooting war with Russia. We can continue to pour money and arms into Ukraine, but all indications are that they will run out of men to continue the fight within a year (or less). At that point, Russia can then take all of Ukraine, which they see as historically part of the Russian empire and undoubtedly want to reclaim. So, what's your solution?

No amount of support and weaponry will stop Russia when Ukraine runs out of troops in the near future. Just continuing to throw money and arms at the situation only delays the inevitable and continues getting people killed. A peace deal now stops the killing and lets Ukraine keep most of its territory. Again, I hate the idea of letting Russia keep any of the land it stole, but what better, realistic, workable solution do you have?

It goes like this:

"Does the Ukrainian government want to continue the fight?"

If the answer is yes, arm them.

 

[Irish#1]

you think Russia want to kill Ukrainians to the last man? How is that logical? That would destroy their narrative that they want to unite their brothers and denazify Ukraine. Even Giddyup will have to reconsider his support for Putin if that happened (Well maybe I'm being optimistic...)I imagine if Ukraine continues to not break, eventually Russia will rethink.
My point being, if Russia actually went to the extreme of exterminating every fighting adult and completely taking over Ukraine, they would be hanging themselves. They would become complete pariahs like they never knew. It would be a huge loss disguised as a win. So please stop buying that silly excuse. If you want to claim it is about saving $, I can buy it for a second, but want to point out that it will cost exponential $$$$ in the future.

This is the moment of truth!!! Putin is banking on his boy to bail him out. If we keep supporting Ukraine, Putin loses that option and has to reconsider. If we pull out the rug now, Putin automatically wins without having to weigh options.

There's nobody supporting Putin and Russia.

I don't know that how we support Ukraine gives the same message about SK, Taiwan and Japan. Very different scenarios.

Let's assume we keep supplying aid. If the reports of Ukraine getting short on manpower is true, do you really think Russia won't take over all of Ukraine? Then where are we? If our allies really step up their support this will help, but it doesn't solve the manpower problem.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

There's nobody supporting Putin and Russia.

The guy in the Oval Office is.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

"tHeRe'S nObOdY sUpPoRtInG pUtIn & RuSsIa!"

 

[calvegas04]

Wow

 

[Irish#1]

The guy in the Oval Office is.

My reply was in response to Tracy's post inferring people on IE supporting Putin/Russia.

Next time, you might want to run it through your head a second time before you show us your smarts.

 

[Irish#1]

Wow

I have to guess there's something going on that we're not privy to at the moment and why he posted that, but that's not a good look for Musk. He would have been better off saying nothing.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

people on IE supporting Putin/Russia.

People here are. They just are too cowardly to outright say it.

See below:

I have to guess there's something going on that we're not privy to at the moment and why he posted that, but that's not a good look for Musk. He would have been better off saying nothing.

 

[NorthDakota]

Fuck yes keep arming and even step it up!! If we bail, we potentially cost ourselves an exponentially higher amount of penalty 10-20 years down the road!! Come on guys, It's like skipping your work now is cetainly going to be more painful in the future. We save 100 billion from Ukraine but will lose 100 trillion on japan/korea.
This war does not just cost us arms/weapons, it cost us our future reputation and the weight of our threat.

Might be time to be honest and admit we can't do that while simultaneously being prepared ourselves. No amount of money magically becomes weapons, and Ukraine isn't important to the point it merits the US going wartime economy where we can produce weapons at that scale. No amount of money is going to grow new soldiers for Ukraine. It was already in a demographic death spiral before the war. Now millions of them live abroad or under Russian control.

God only knows how many they lost in the Kursk adventure to get land to negotiate with, and that is collapsing now. I feel bad for them, they were led to believe they could win. Victoria Nuland should commit seppuku.

No idea what you mean when you mention Japan/Korea. Japan is an island nation of 125 million people with a strong US presence. Korea has a strong US presence as well.

 

[calvegas04]

 

[Irish#1]

People here are. They just are too cowardly to outright say it.

See below:

Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking.

Now say something witty.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking.

Nah, it's perfectly fine.

Now heel for Putin.

 

[TracyGraham]

Might be time to be honest and admit we can't do that while simultaneously being prepared ourselves. No amount of money magically becomes weapons, and Ukraine isn't important to the point it merits the US going wartime economy where we can produce weapons at that scale. No amount of money is going to grow new soldiers for Ukraine. It was already in a demographic death spiral before the war. Now millions of them live abroad or under Russian control.

God only knows how many they lost in the Kursk adventure to get land to negotiate with, and that is collapsing now. I feel bad for them, they were led to believe they could win. Victoria Nuland should commit seppuku.

No idea what you mean when you mention Japan/Korea. Japan is an island nation of 125 million people with a strong US presence. Korea has a strong US presence as well.

Well, I dont have the time to explain Chinese/S. Korean/Japanese history. China has a very vested interest in them and always has.
Ukraine might not be that important in the way you imagine but they are as a symbol.
If we don't have the stomach to support them with weapons, we are demonstrating we will not support our allies anymore.
What is easier? Sacrificing a relatively small portion of money and no lives or an exponentially larger amount of money and actual boots on the ground?
If we aren't willing to do the prior, we certainly are signaling we wont do the latter. This tells China that if they come for S.Korea/Japan one day, we are most likely going to pack our equipment and go home(would you fight and die for a country on the other side of the world?) It is a bluff game.
Supporting proxy wars like in /Ukraine shows our potential foes that we are here to stop aggression. That threat is evaporating,Dont you think the bluff element is a huge portion of the military? Why are we just throwing that away? When bad actors ask themselves"Geewiz.. should we attack this country?"They normally will think, "Durrr, maybe that's a bad call because the US might stop us." Our actions in Ukraine are not doing an excellent job of reinforcing this situation....

 

[TracyGraham]

There's nobody supporting Putin and Russia.

I don't know that how we support Ukraine gives the same message about SK, Taiwan and Japan. Very different scenarios.

Let's assume we keep supplying aid. If the reports of Ukraine getting short on manpower is true, do you really think Russia won't take over all of Ukraine? Then where are we? If our allies really step up their support this will help, but it doesn't solve the manpower problem.

About S. Korea/Japan/Taiwan... I think we have greater ties with Europe than Asia historically so if we cant stand up for europe then it signals we cant stand up for our asian allies.
As for supporting Russia, I was being partly facetious to prove my point. But it does feel that way sometimes. It feels like a blind support for Trump. People don't seem to have one reason for bailing and it's like we are seeing people trying to convince themselves it is the right decision in real time. One day its about money, then its about manpower, then its about nukes and ww3, then its about Ukraine is actually the corrupt country. I havent really heard a great excuse.

 

[BilboBaggins]

About S. Korea/Japan/Taiwan... I think we have greater ties with Europe than Asia historically so if we cant stand up for europe then it signals we cant stand up for our asian allies.
As for supporting Russia, I was being partly facetious to prove my point. But it does feel that way sometimes. It feels like a blind support for Trump. People don't seem to have one reason for bailing and it's like we are seeing people trying to convince themselves it is the right decision in real time. One day its about money, then its about manpower, then its about nukes and ww3, then its about Ukraine is actually the corrupt country. I havent really heard a great excuse.

Trump supports Russia, so Trumpers support Russia. That's all there is to it.

He could just as easily order that frozen Russian assets--worth hundreds of billions of dollars--could be liquidated to pay for Ukrainian aid. But he's not doing that. He is Russia's bitch and always has been.