Police State USA

[Sea Turtle]

Because mass incarceration is working? By what measures are you claiming that?

Nothing will work until the toxic culture changes.

 

[jprue24]

How many frequent priors committing bad crimes you need to see the problem? Or are you arguing that this isn't a problem at all?
We have to hold the people accountable.

At this point, anything that isn't just your opinion would be amazing.

 

[jprue24]

Nothing will work until the toxic culture changes.

Go on...

 

[Sea Turtle]

Go on...

Thata it. Change the black sub culture in America. What it values an what it shuns. It will flourish.

 

[GoIrish41]

Thata it. Change the black sub culture in America. What it values a what it shuns. It will flourish.

Nothing is more toxic than a racist.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Nothing is more toxic than a racist.

Oh those arent just my words. Thy are the words of countless black scholars.

And there is nothing racist about acknowledging the obvious problems on the black community. That's part of the problem, not addressing it.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Nothing is more toxic than a racist.

Here's why your overused naive "Everything is racist" nonsense is so wrong, so harmful to those you "think" you're being helpful and compassionate to, and why we roll our eyes when you pontificate about stuff you're so incredibly misinformed about.

 

[jprue24]

Thata it. Change the black sub culture in America. What it values an what it shuns. It will flourish.

There it is...

 

[jprue24]

Here's why your overused naive "Everything is racist" nonsense is so wrong, so harmful to those you "think" you're being helpful and compassionate to, and why we roll our eyes when you pontificate about stuff you're so incredibly misinformed about.

View attachment 3053854

So you agree with Turt that the only way to fix recidivism is through a wholesale change of black culture?

 

[Sea Turtle]

Here's why your overused naive "Everything is racist" nonsense is so wrong, so harmful to those you "think" you're being helpful and compassionate to, and why we roll our eyes when you pontificate about stuff you're so incredibly misinformed about.

View attachment 3053854

This is a really good discussion from Glenn Loury and Jason Riley from the Manhatten Institute that touches on some of the issues and the reluctance to talk about them.

 

[GoIrish41]

Oh those arent just my words. Thy are the words of countless black scholars.

And there is nothing racist about acknowledging the obvious problems on the black community. That's part of the problem, not addressing it.

Is that why the GOP wants to make it harder for minorities to vote instead of just fixing the obvious inequities in all facets of society? They are the root of the problems you are talking about. And always have been. Best not teach our children how shameful our ancestors were lest we make the white children feel shame. When in fact the only shame they should feel is that of their ridiculous parents keeping them in the dark. That should do the trick. More oppression and inequality to cure the inevitable result of centuries of the same.

 

[Blazers46]

Because mass incarceration is working? By what measures are you claiming that?

On paper I’ll agree that punishment (in America) does not deter crime. The stats will be on your side.

I was in the crime business for awhile. 2 hots and a cot and the never ending battle with lawsuits to get better prison conditions has made a lot of prisons luxury apartments compared to what some of the these people would call normal living conditions. I was an in home social worker too… most jails and prisons aren’t rikers, they are closer to the Marriott. Drugs a plenty, cell phones found daily, jailhouse hooch is pretty easy to make. Oysters in some places, not to mention the ghetto delicacy of never ending top ramen. Compare that to a NYC or Chicago apartment in the ghetto and I would take prison any day, not even close.

Someone posted incarceration numbers compared to China. We incarcerate more as a percentage but have you seen a Chinese prison? But then it’s also estimated Chinas number could be grossly understated. Not to mention the re education camps. China carried out 12,000 executions per year and t Roy have decreased to 2,400 according to most sites…. but then again they aren’t known for honesty with stats. China on paper is a much safer place to live on paper, they must have a great judicial system. Crazy.

 

[GATTACA!]

On paper I’ll agree that punishment (in America) does not deter crime. The stats will be on your side.

I was in the crime business for awhile. 2 hots and a cot and the never ending battle with lawsuits to get better prison conditions has made a lot of prisons luxury apartments compared to what some of the these people would call normal living conditions. I was an in home social worker too… most jails and prisons aren’t rikers, they are closer to the Marriott. Drugs a plenty, cell phones found daily, jailhouse hooch is pretty easy to make. Oysters in some places, not to mention the ghetto delicacy of never ending top ramen. Compare that to a NYC or Chicago apartment in the ghetto and I would take prison any day, not even close.

Someone posted incarceration numbers compared to China. We incarcerate more as a percentage but have you seen a Chinese prison? But then it’s also estimated Chinas number could be grossly understated. Not to mention the re education camps. China carried out 12,000 executions per year and t Roy have decreased to 2,400 according to most sites…. but then again they aren’t known for honesty with stats. China on paper is a much safer place to live on paper, they must have a great judicial system. Crazy.

Even if their prison populations is twice when they claim it still pales in comparison to the US per capita.

China 3,400,000 / 1,412,000,000 = 0.002
US 1,700,000 / 320,000,000 = .005

 

[Blazers46]

Even if their prison populations is twice when they claim it still pales in comparison to the US per capita.

China 3,400,000 / 1,412,000,000 = 0.002
US 1,700,000 / 320,000,000 = .005

Yeah I admitted on stats alone you win so your reply is more stats 😂 . But context matters. Nobody wants to be in a Chinese prison. A lot of the worse prisons in America are probably better than where some people would be living is my point. It’s not irregular for people to commit petty crimes just for a nice weekend with warm blankets and a few hot meals. Nobody is breaking the law in China as a mini vacation or because they feel better off. American jails and prisons are not a deterrent. If jail is the punishment for crime of course punishment is not a huge deterrent. It’s very much so in China.

Are you aware of the Justice system in China… or severely lack thereof? Human rights violations across the board and prison camps. The Justice system is vastly more pinative yet they still have a lower crime rate.

 

[GoIrish41]

Yeah I admitted on stats alone you win so your reply is more stats 😂 . But context matters. Nobody wants to be in a Chinese prison. A lot of the worse prisons in America are probably better than where some people would be living is my point. It’s not irregular for people to commit petty crimes just for a nice weekend with warm blankets and a few hot meals. Nobody is breaking the law in China as a mini vacation or because they feel better off. American jails and prisons are not a deterrent. If jail is the punishment for crime of course punishment is not a huge deterrent. It’s very much so in China.

Are you aware of the Justice system in China… or severely lack thereof? Human rights violations across the board and prison camps. The Justice system is vastly more pinative yet they still have a lower crime rate.

Open the doors of any prison anywhere and see how many stay voluntarily.

 

[Blazers46]

Open the doors of any prison anywhere and see how many stay voluntarily.

My point is see how many stay. From juvenile jail/prison to adult jail/prison there are large number that would refuse to leave.

 

[GoIrish41]

My point is see how many stay. From juvenile jail/prison to adult jail/prison there are large number that would refuse to leave.

Put a number on it. There are roughly 2.3 million people incarcerated in this country. How many are still there the day after the doors swing open? I’ll bet that number is closer to zero that 115,000 (and that’s just 5% of the incarcerated population).

 

[Blazers46]

Put a number on it. There are roughly 2.3 million people incarcerated in this country. How many are still there the day after the doors swing open? I’ll bet that number is closer to zero that 115,000 (5% of the encarcerated population).

You miss the point. American prison is as such that people will stay. It’s obviously a fools errand to put a number on it unless we actually opened the doors.

 

[GoIrish41]

You miss the point. American prison is as such that people will stay. It’s obviously a fools errand to put a number on it unless we actually opened the doors.

I guess I don’t need to point out that it is an “errand” that you suggested would include a “large number.” I just wanted to find out what a large number is to you. My guess is that the number would be minuscule as a percentage of incarcerated persons who would “refuse to leave” prison if given the opportunity.

 

[Blazers46]

I guess I don’t need to point out that it is an “errand” that you suggested would include a “large number.” I just wanted to find out what a large number is to you. My guess is that the number would be minuscule as a percentage of incarcerated persons who would “refuse to leave” prison if given the opportunity.

The number isn’t the point. Yeesh, can we stay on topic.

 

[GoIrish41]

The number isn’t the point. Yeesh, can we stay on topic.

Then why mention it? The “topic” seems to be that American prisons are like the Ramada Inn that people can’t wait to visit, whereas China’s prisons are like not nearly so relaxing and sought after. But to support your claim, you said something dumb (not that prison by choice for a lot of people isn't dumb on its face) and instead of saying you misspoke, you doubled down and made it even dumber.

 

[TorontoGold]

Then why mention it? The “topic” seems to be that American prisons are like the Ramada Inn that people can’t wait to visit, whereas China’s prisons are like not nearly so relaxing and sought after. But to support your claim, you said something dumb (not that prison by choice for a lot of people isn't dumb on its face) and instead of saying you misspoke, you doubled down and made it even dumber.

Even if the point of "look, people are lining up to stay in prison" was true, what does that say about the security nets for the people who are in the lower class? Lazy free loaders should be kinder to Chateau Rikers! Wow, I didn't realize how good El Salvadors prisons are - the bastion of comfort and relaxation!

 

[Blazers46]

Then why mention it? The “topic” seems to be that American prisons are like the Ramada Inn that people can’t wait to visit, whereas China’s prisons are like not nearly so relaxing and sought after. But to support your claim, you said something dumb (not that prison by choice for a lot of people isn't dumb on its face) and instead of saying you misspoke, you doubled down and made it even dumber.

I didn’t misspeak, you are harping on one little thing to win a conversion and not have one. you miss the point and probably on purpose.

I am saying there are a large amount of people that would rather be in jail. You asked for a defined number… that’s impossible. And because I can’t produce this number I’m the idiot. I’ve worked in jails/prisons/group homes. The thought that nobody wants to be there and that jail is as much of a punishment as other countries (since we compare prison rates to other countries) is comparing apple to oranges.

I’ll define “large” as more than you probably think. Just because I can’t define this number like I conducted an independent study myself is irrelevant. Jail in America is a cakewalk compared to most.

 

[Blazers46]

Even if the point of "look, people are lining up to stay in prison" was true, what does that say about the security nets for the people who are in the lower class? Lazy free loaders should be kinder to Chateau Rikers! Wow, I didn't realize how good El Salvadors prisons are - the bastion of comfort and relaxation!

View attachment 3053856

How many jails and prisons have you been in? The vast majority are not much of a deterrent as you would think.

I once had a client that chose to stay in jail to complete a college course, paid by the tax payers, because he knew it would be paid for if he stayed in jail. Then the idiot sued the state because he stayed in jail longer than he was supposed to and settled out of court. Welcome to the American justice system. Lol.

 

[TorontoGold]

How many jails and prisons have you been in? The vast majority are not much of a deterrent as you would think.

I once had a client that chose to stay in jail to complete a college course, paid by the tax payers, because he knew it would be paid for if he stayed in jail. Then the idiot sued the state because he stayed in jail longer than he was supposed to and settled out of court. Welcome to the American justice system. Lol.

I've been to Sherif Joe's in AZ. Horrible place. But who cares about my anecdotal experience lol.

Part of being pro-rehabilition is that I am glad an inmate got educated. I'm not sure what you want? A prison system that is supposed to just be focused on punitive measures? What does it say about society that people have to go to prison so that they can get an education and fed. If you believe a person that commits crimes on purpose so that they can be fed shouldn't receive shelter what would you have them do?

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[Blazers46]

I've been to Sherif Joe's in AZ. Horrible place. But who cares about my anecdotal experience lol.

Part of being pro-rehabilition is that I am glad an inmate got educated. I'm not sure what you want? A prison system that is supposed to just be focused on punitive measures? What does it say about society that people have to go to prison so that they can get an education and fed. If you believe a person that commits crimes on purpose so that they can be fed shouldn't receive shelter what would you have them do?

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Thats another convo for another day. The convo is about punishment and deterrence. I never said they don’t deserve shelter. You people are amazingly awful having a conversion.

Also Sheriff Joes county lockup wasn’t that bad, I lived and worked in Phoenix for over a year. Been there plenty.

 

[TorontoGold]

Thats another convo for another day. The convo is about punishment and deterrence. I never said they don’t deserve shelter. You people are amazingly awful having a conversion.

Ok, so you believe the US prisons are setup in a way that incentives people to want to go back to them? What kind of changes would you make to them to have people not go back? What examples of deterrence do you have in mind that have been successful in other countries?

In terms of punishment what kind of punishment would you have done that isnt being done? Are there models out there that work in terms of your desired punishment structure?

I think providing rehabilitation opportunities are the best deterrence but I understand if you would like to focus on your original points.

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[Blazers46]

Ok, so you believe the US prisons are setup in a way that incentives people to want to go back to them? What kind of changes would you make to them to have people not go back? What examples of deterrence do you have in mind that have been successful in other countries?

In terms of punishment what kind of punishment would you have done that isnt being done? Are there models out there that work in terms of your desired punishment structure?

I think providing rehabilitation opportunities are the best deterrence but I understand if you would like to focus on your original points.

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This isn’t the context of the original conversion. I’m not arguing any of this. I’m simply saying comparing crime and punishment in America cannot be compared apples to apples with other countries because prisons and the justice system in America is not as much of a deterrent as other counties. I used the conditions of our jails as an example as being a place where some even would live in over freedom… now this convo is growing legs and I’m talking to 3-4 different people about 5 different things.

 

[Blazers46]

The great philosopher of the ghetto hath spoken…and he’s right.

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[drayer54]

Incarceration works.