Culture

[GATTACA!]

I had the over/under at 10 more posts before we got full on finance bro. Kudos team!

 

[Blazers46]

I see we are still at "fuck the poors".

Nobody is saying fuck the poors, although it might be one entitlement they fight for next but I’m only one person so they will have to stand in line.

 

[ulukinatme]

In most cases the poor fuck the poors. Opportunities are there, especially in today's job market. Some people just can't pass a drug test and that holds them back. Some people struggle with just[ showing up. I'm not saying that there aren't people down on their luck that don't deserve a helping hand or assistance, but I've seen first hand how people game the system so they can be lazy and skate by.

I've got two sister-in-laws that are on government assistance and all they do is smoke weed and do deliveries for pizza or Uber eats. They can't really get a job doing anything else, or they won't. They're both married to deadbeats, one that has a bunch of kids with other baby mamas and he pays nothing in child support. He also smokes weed all day. Their freezer is completely stocked with so much food, so they make money on the side by buying groceries for friends and family using their EBT and whatnot...and then they get reimbursed in cash at a discount. It's the path of least resistance, they've been doing it for at least 10 years and will keep doing it.

 

[GATTACA!]

In most cases the poor fuck the poors. Opportunities are there, especially in today's job market. Some people just can't pass a drug test and that holds them back. Some people struggle with just[ showing up. I'm not saying that there aren't people down on their luck that don't deserve a helping hand or assistance, but I've seen first hand how people game the system so they can be lazy and skate by.

I've got two sister-in-laws that are on government assistance and all they do is smoke weed and do deliveries for pizza or Uber eats. They can't really get a job doing anything else, or they won't. They're both married to deadbeats, one that has a bunch of kids with other baby mamas and he pays nothing in child support. He also smokes weed all day. Their freezer is completely stocked with so much food, so they make money on the side by buying groceries for friends and family using their EBT and whatnot...and then they get reimbursed in cash at a discount. It's the path of least resistance, they've been doing it for at least 10 years and will keep doing it.

Hmmmm it’s almost as if we need to make the incentives to work greater than they are to not work? 🤔

 

[Blazers46]

Being a social worker for 10 years bad decisions lead to bad outcomes and no matter how much you help someone they seem to be adverse to making good decisions. Sometimes it feels like self sabotage. I know a lot of it is just people don’t know what they don’t know but it’s a very hard cycle to break.

 

[TorontoGold]

Hmmmm it’s almost as if we need to make the incentives to work greater than they are to not work? 🤔

Those pesky poor people are living such desirable lives though! Could you imagine how great it would to do what they do? Surely they all should get painted with a broad brush that they're lazy people who got there because of their choices and not from bad luck.

 

[ulukinatme]

Hmmmm it’s almost as if we need to make the incentives to work greater than they are to not work? 🤔

There's good paying jobs already there, but these people are lazy or can't put down the dope. There's a local plumbing business that's been advertising lately here, they say they'll train you and you can make close to six figures in 7 years or less as a master plumber. That's right in line what Ohio pays for the upper 10% in the trade. They're still advertising, so they must be hard up for help.

 

[Blazers46]

Those pesky poor people are living such desirable lives though! Could you imagine how great it would to do what they do? Surely they all should get painted with a broad brush that they're lazy people who got there because of their choices and not from bad luck.

I think you would be surprised. Like I said above, people don’t know what they don’t know. When I lived in squalorville with the poors my old neighbor would always respond to the question “how are you” with “fucking and smoking” and I believed him because I was his neighbor and saw the happenings happening.

 

[ulukinatme]

Those pesky poor people are living such desirable lives though! Could you imagine how great it would to do what they do? Surely they all should get painted with a broad brush that they're lazy people who got there because of their choices and not from bad luck.

Blazers and myself have both lived among these people first hand. Have you ever lived in a meth haven with a bunch of lazy rednecks?

 

[TorontoGold]

I think you would be surprised. Like I said above, people don’t know what they don’t know. When I lived in squalorville with the poors my old neighbor would always respond to the question “how are you” with “fucking and smoking” and I believed him because I was his neighbor and saw the happenings happening.

It's a really shit life, people don't truly want to live in squalor. It either mental illness or just given up for those that appear to be "enjoying" it.

Blazers and myself have both lived among these people first hand. Have you ever lived in a meth haven with a bunch of lazy rednecks?

I volunteer regularly with a local youth shelter that deals with a lot of rescuing kids from bad situations. I've also gone out of my way to get these kids jobs in the accounting space at my firm or other firms that I know are reputable. I was given a straight flush at birth, it would be stupid for me to not acknowledge that and give a hand down to those that weren't. I also have been in touch with one of the mayoral candidates that's near the top of the polls with developing a system to assist low income residents with their personal tax filings. My anecdotal stories shouldn't have to convince anyone that poor people deserve basic compassion.

One of the lessons I took from my church goings was that your character is determined by how you treat the most vulnerable in society. Shitting on poor people because they are a product of their shitty environment while saying they are just lazy or "need to want it more" to break the cycle without acknowledging the systems in place are set against them is naive.

 

[Blazers46]

It's a really shit life, people don't truly want to live in squalor. It either mental illness or just given up for those that appear to be "enjoying" it.


I volunteer regularly with a local youth shelter that deals with a lot of rescuing kids from bad situations. I've also gone out of my way to get these kids jobs in the accounting space at my firm or other firms that I know are reputable. I was given a straight flush at birth, it would be stupid for me to not acknowledge that and give a hand down to those that weren't. I also have been in touch with one of the mayoral candidates that's near the top of the polls with developing a system to assist low income residents with their personal tax filings. My anecdotal stories shouldn't have to convince anyone that poor people deserve basic compassion.

One of the lessons I took from my church goings was that your character is determined by how you treat the most vulnerable in society. Shitting on poor people because they are a product of their shitty environment while saying they are just lazy or "need to want it more" to break the cycle without acknowledging the systems in place are set against them is naive.

Breaking cycles are hard. I am the youngest of 6 and was blessed to watch and learn what NOT to do but all but 1 of my siblings are still trying to figure that out. It’s sort of blessing to have such dysfunction in my family so my kids can at least have good seats and see what and where I came from. It is sort of funny watching my 14 year giving my older brother or even my own father advice on life.

 

[ulukinatme]

It's a really shit life, people don't truly want to live in squalor. It either mental illness or just given up for those that appear to be "enjoying" it.


I volunteer regularly with a local youth shelter that deals with a lot of rescuing kids from bad situations. I've also gone out of my way to get these kids jobs in the accounting space at my firm or other firms that I know are reputable. I was given a straight flush at birth, it would be stupid for me to not acknowledge that and give a hand down to those that weren't. I also have been in touch with one of the mayoral candidates that's near the top of the polls with developing a system to assist low income residents with their personal tax filings. My anecdotal stories shouldn't have to convince anyone that poor people deserve basic compassion.

One of the lessons I took from my church goings was that your character is determined by how you treat the most vulnerable in society. Shitting on poor people because they are a product of their shitty environment while saying they are just lazy or "need to want it more" to break the cycle without acknowledging the systems in place are set against them is naive.

They're not all lazy, but many of them are. Like I said, there are some very deserving people out there that just need a hand up, but there's a lot that are content with mooching while they do very little. We lived on an income of about $50k for awhile in the beginning. My first house was a $90k HUD home we fixed up in that neighborhood and lived there for 10 years. We had some meager years, but we pushed for better things and built a new $300k home 2 years ago. The only help I got was living at home with my parents for the first few years after I got a job so I could save up 20% for that first house.

I'm getting away from the point. You said people don't truly want to live in squalor, but some people are perfectly fine with it. While I lived in that first neighborhood I met all kinds of neighbors. There were some that were good people that were doing their best. One was a racist drug dealer across the street that didn't have another job, but he was on EBT. One was a single mother with 4 kids of her own from 3 different men and a bunch of foster kids that she treated like dogs while she collected money from the state for fostering. I had multiple addicts that would come to my door begging, one even asked me if I keep my detached garage locked at night. We had one guy that offered to mow our lawn, he did some of it but then his mower "broke down" and he said he sold it to the guy across the street. He wanted to finish the yard with our own mower, to which I said no. Found out he was doing jobs for a lot of people and selling mowers off left and right from under the owners so he could pocket the extra cash. Point is not everyone is a hard luck case, these people all made choices that contributed to their situation. There's a lot of scumbags out there that are happy living as scumbags.

 

[RDU Irish]

Those pesky poor people are living such desirable lives though! Could you imagine how great it would to do what they do? Surely they all should get painted with a broad brush that they're lazy people who got there because of their choices and not from bad luck.

As Ulukinatme points out - they aren't dumb, they just have different goals. They can be quite resourceful and smart about getting what they want which just happens to be high as a kite all day with the minimum amount of work to get there. Not everyone measures success the same way.

And your Canadian healthcare being free might classify as socialist to some of us. Choosing to live in an expensive city for a "big firm" and then complain about affordable housing just makes me LOL. "I'm 29 and can't afford a house in Toronto" - no shit. Then you shit on rural America - lots of folks love their affordable small towns. Somewhat of a renaissance for small towns thanks to remote work and lower cost of living.

Blazers and myself have both lived among these people first hand. Have you ever lived in a meth haven with a bunch of lazy rednecks?

I grew up in a town of 300 in rural midwest, 40 miles to the nearest stoplight.

 

[RDU Irish]

It's a really shit life, people don't truly want to live in squalor. It either mental illness or just given up for those that appear to be "enjoying" it.


I volunteer regularly with a local youth shelter that deals with a lot of rescuing kids from bad situations. I've also gone out of my way to get these kids jobs in the accounting space at my firm or other firms that I know are reputable. I was given a straight flush at birth, it would be stupid for me to not acknowledge that and give a hand down to those that weren't. I also have been in touch with one of the mayoral candidates that's near the top of the polls with developing a system to assist low income residents with their personal tax filings. My anecdotal stories shouldn't have to convince anyone that poor people deserve basic compassion.

One of the lessons I took from my church goings was that your character is determined by how you treat the most vulnerable in society. Shitting on poor people because they are a product of their shitty environment while saying they are just lazy or "need to want it more" to break the cycle without acknowledging the systems in place are set against them is naive.

Your are being naive thinking the "system" is government and society. The system against them is their family/home unit. Everything else is a distant second. It takes a massive personal commitment to walk away from your broken roots but in most cases that is the answer. And we do next to nothing to remove kids from massively dysfunctional situations.

Rural redneck losers are not any different than urban slum losers in my book. They may be a different color but the broken homes sure look the same at the core and it ain't two parents working minimum wage jobs 60 hours per week struggling to get ahead.

 

[TorontoGold]

As Ulukinatme points out - they aren't dumb, they just have different goals. They can be quite resourceful and smart about getting what they want which just happens to be high as a kite all day with the minimum amount of work to get there. Not everyone measures success the same way.

And your Canadian healthcare being free might classify as socialist to some of us. Choosing to live in an expensive city for a "big firm" and then complain about affordable housing just makes me LOL. "I'm 29 and can't afford a house in Toronto" - no shit. Then you shit on rural America - lots of folks love their affordable small towns. Somewhat of a renaissance for small towns thanks to remote work and lower cost of living.



I grew up in a town of 300 in rural midwest, 40 miles to the nearest stoplight.

Let's make this clearer (yet again) - my complaint is that if I can't afford it, then there a lot of more deserving people with families that need the space who can't afford it. That is what's bad. Nobody should be crying over the late 20's guy who just needs more space.

I'm not sure if it's happening there but a lot of our small towns have had a "renaissance" for feeling like the "foreigners" are invading their peaceful little town because they can't afford to live in the city so they are living in the surrounding areas. People in these towns are loving that their home prices are sky rocketing from the increased demand but hate that there are different colours in the area. Maybe that is yet to happen down there.

Your are being naive thinking the "system" is government and society. The system against them is their family/home unit. Everything else is a distant second. It takes a massive personal commitment to walk away from your broken roots but in most cases that is the answer. And we do next to nothing to remove kids from massively dysfunctional situations.

Rural redneck losers are not any different than urban slum losers in my book. They may be a different color but the broken homes sure look the same at the core and it ain't two parents working minimum wage jobs 60 hours per week struggling to get ahead.

Having a government who is just trying to assist their corporate donor base and practices corporate socialism is absolutely the #1 issue. This is why I have no disdain for what Blazers' has done - literally the gold standard of using what's available to him to build a business for him and his family. It's not his responsibility to change a systemic issue. Which is why I have a client base that does many of the same things he does lol.

 

[RDU Irish]

Let's make this clearer (yet again) - my complaint is that if I can't afford it, then there a lot of more deserving people with families that need the space who can't afford it. That is what's bad. Nobody should be crying over the late 20's guy who just needs more space.

I'm not sure if it's happening there but a lot of our small towns have had a "renaissance" for feeling like the "foreigners" are invading their peaceful little town because they can't afford to live in the city so they are living in the surrounding areas. People in these towns are loving that their home prices are sky rocketing from the increased demand but hate that there are different colours in the area. Maybe that is yet to happen down there.



Having a government who is just trying to assist their corporate donor base and practices corporate socialism is absolutely the #1 issue. This is why I have no disdain for what Blazers' has done - literally the gold standard of using what's available to him to build a business for him and his family. It's not his responsibility to change a systemic issue. Which is why I have a client base that does many of the same things he does lol.

We always loved new people coming to town - so damn boring and isolated. Frequently it was kids being mailed in to get away from worse situations (TX, CA, Costa Rica for a couple of examples). Maybe Canadians are more racist but content of character in a small town is quickly deciphered and greatly superceeds color of skin. I submit it is much easier to become "one of us" in rural America as a POC than a white kid moving to the ghetto. Tribalism cuts both ways.

30 years ago one black family moved to small town near by to get away from some bad influences for their teenage son. Loved and embraced by most b/c they were good people trying to make a better way forward. Helped that the 6'6" kid propelled them to a state basketball run. Most of the "racism" were sour grapes locals who hate all outsiders or competing teams that didn't like air dropping a ringer.

Small towns have had brain drain and dying for decades. My parents moved and sold our house in the mid 90s for about $30k - you could do remote tax prep making half as much and easily afford a 3 bedroom, 2000+ square foot house in Opioidville.

Let me know when you figure out how to keep corporatism out of government. My suggestion is reducing size and scope of government.

 

[jprue24]

Blazers and myself have both lived among these people first hand. Have you ever lived in a meth haven with a bunch of lazy rednecks?

Yes.

 

[Blazers46]

Blazers and myself have both lived among these people first hand. Have you ever lived in a meth haven with a bunch of lazy rednecks?

To be fair, mine was a cocaine haven full black and Hispanic “rednecks”.

 

[ulukinatme]

Yes.

Then you've seen firsthand how not all poor people are sweet, innocent individuals that are just down on their luck. Some choose to be scumbags as I outlined above and are happy doing less.

 

[Blazers46]

Then you've seen firsthand how not all poor people are sweet, innocent individuals that are just down on their luck. Some choose to be scumbags as I outlined above and are happy doing less.

Poor people make bad decisions because white people did something… not sure what… but something .

 

[jprue24]

Then you've seen firsthand how not all poor people are sweet, innocent individuals that are just down on their luck. Some choose to be scumbags as I outlined above and are happy doing less.

Like every other sub-group of humans?

That's weird.

 

[ulukinatme]

Like every other sub-group of humans?

That's weird.

So why are scumbags deserving of more money when they're happy being scumbags and don't deserve anything more? The tough solution is weeding out the good people that really need the assistance. Probably need mandatory drug testing in there.

 

[GATTACA!]

So why are scumbags deserving of more money when they're happy being scumbags and don't deserve anything more? The tough solution is weeding out the good people that really need the assistance. Probably need mandatory drug testing in there.

Wasn't this whole discussion about the minimum wage? How would someone not working benefit from that? By definition that would be helping those that choose to actually put in the work. And a portion of the lazy poors you hate so much would be converted to working poors by the increased incentive.

 

[ulukinatme]

Wasn't this whole discussion about the minimum wage? How would someone not working benefit from that? By definition that would be helping those that choose to actually put in the work. And a portion of the lazy poors you hate so much would be converted to working poors by the increased incentive.

Some people barely work and scrape by, case in point my dead beat brother-in-law I mentioned. They're on government assistance, he basically doesn't work more than 10 hours a week delivering food. The rest of the time he just smokes pot and doesn't take care of his several kids. This is the one that scams and resells their EBT funds too. If he suddenly gets paid more for doing the same job, I absolutely see him working even less when he should be getting off his lazy fat ass and getting a real job. Part of the problem is they're gaming the system and not being held accountable. If the kids wouldn't suffer more I'd turn them in personally. It's gotten to the point they can't afford to get the kids anything for Christmas, so my wife buys them toys.

I'm not against raising minimum wage, although I wouldn't advocate doubling it at this time. More than anything I don't want lazy scumbags like my brother-in-law to benefit when he's already doing less than the minimum. Part of that problem is the accountability and vetting of the government assistance, but that's another topic.

 

[Irish#1]

A couple of thoughts getting caught up.

1. Why is it so hard to realize that many that are "down on their luck" are that way due to their own choosing and raising minimum wage isn't going to change their minds about the way they choose to live? About 25 years ago we were having a garage sale fund raiser near downtown Indy. A couple of guys who were down on their luck came walking by and asked if I could spare a couple of dollars. I told them I would be happy to give them each a couple of dollars if they would carry a folding table for me. All they had to do was carry it for about 30-35 feet and set it where I pointed to. They got the table and started toward me. They got about halfway, stopped, sat the table down and asked for their money. When I told them they needed to finish the job, they started complaining and reluctantly finished carrying the table. I gave them their money as promised. You would be hard pressed to convince me they weren't just being lazy.

2. Where did Ulukinatme or anyone on the other side of the fence say they hate those that are down on their luck? Simply not wanting to support those that choose to maintain that lifestyle doesn't constitute hate.

3. Those that are trying to support their families on minimum wage are the ones that need the assistance.

 

[Blazers46]

I’ll add that I’m entirely on the other side of working hard equates money or even value. We might have been there at one time but the world has quickly evolved and you can put your feet on foot finder and potentially make a living. Or do toy reviews on YouTube and make a living. It’s about being smart and innovative… with the thought that we are sort of going through some sort of tech revolution where machine is taking jobs of people. Even a monetary revolution where money is 1s and 0s in a computer system not in your wallet or even actual bank account anymore. If you cannot find a way to make extra cash you aren’t trying.

 

[GATTACA!]

A couple of thoughts getting caught up.

1. Why is it so hard to realize that many that are "down on their luck" are that way due to their own choosing and raising minimum wage isn't going to change their minds about the way they choose to live? About 25 years ago we were having a garage sale fund raiser near downtown Indy. A couple of guys who were down on their luck came walking by and asked if I could spare a couple of dollars. I told them I would be happy to give them each a couple of dollars if they would carry a folding table for me. All they had to do was carry it for about 30-35 feet and set it where I pointed to. They got the table and started toward me. They got about halfway, stopped, sat the table down and asked for their money. When I told them they needed to finish the job, they started complaining and reluctantly finished carrying the table. I gave them their money as promised. You would be hard pressed to convince me they weren't just being lazy.

I don't think it's hard to understand. I don't think anyone in here is even disagreeing with you about this. Yes some people suck and are lazy. They will be lazy with the minimum wage at $8 or at $15. I do believe that some portion of the population you are describing would be convinced into joining the workforce if their ability to make a living was greater than what they are given in entitlements.

I also think it's easy to understand how we've created these skewed incentives for many people by letting the minimum wage lag waaaay behind inflation while entitlement programs like food stamps are adjusted every year. You're asking for problems by devaluing peoples wages.

2. Where did Ulukinatme or anyone on the other side of the fence say they hate those that are down on their luck? Simply not wanting to support those that choose to maintain that lifestyle doesn't constitute hate.

Kinda gives off that vibe when we're discussing something like raising the minimum wage which would help millions of Americans, help increase families abilities to support themselves, help people afford housing, allow people to afford childcare, etc and the main concern around here is that a side effect is that some lazy poor people also might benefit.

3. Those that are trying to support their families on minimum wage are the ones that need the assistance.

Well we certainly agree on this point. Restoring the wage floor to where it was 50 years ago is one of the biggest legs up we could give them.

 

[Blazers46]

Kinda gives off that vibe when we're discussing something like raising the minimum wage which would help millions of Americans, help increase families abilities to support themselves, help people afford housing, allow people to afford childcare, etc and the main concern around here is that a side effect is that some lazy poor people also might benefit.

It was said already but I’ll repeat. Nowhere in there did you mention make people more valuable to society. We are giving to just give, that money comes from somewhere. 50% of the economy is small business so you are asking normal folk like you and I to pay people more even if their value doesn’t. I know you’ll come back and say a cashier or dishwashers value has gone down because non wage hasn’t met cost of living over the years… but at the end of the day people can still find dishwashers and cashiers and pay them the minimum. Those people are replaceable because they don’t bring much value. People in the workforce become commodities when they work for someone else, love it or hate it… it is what it is. If I can buy a gallon of milk for $2 instead of $4 I’m buying that $2 gallon of milk, maybe 2. Same for employees. If I can hire someone at $10 instead of $15 it’s easy math.

 

[GATTACA!]

It was said already but I’ll repeat. Nowhere in there did you mention make people more valuable to society. We are giving to just give, that money comes from somewhere. 50% of the economy is small business so you are asking normal folk like you and I to pay people more even if their value doesn’t. I know you’ll come back and say a cashier or dishwashers value has gone down because non wage hasn’t met cost of living over the years… but at the end of the day people can still find dishwashers and cashiers and pay them the minimum. Those people are replaceable because they don’t bring much value. People in the workforce become commodities when they work for someone else, love it or hate it… it is what it is. If I can buy a gallon of milk for $2 instead of $4 I’m buying that $2 gallon of milk, maybe 2. Same for employees. If I can hire someone at $10 instead of $15 it’s easy math.

Yes you've just encapsulated the reason a federal minimum wage is needed. Because without it businesses would be stupid not to offer the lowest possible wage they can.

 

[ulukinatme]

Yes you've just encapsulated the reason a federal minimum wage is needed. Because without it businesses would be stupid not to offer the lowest possible wage they can.

The market really dictates most wages though, and 30 of the 50 states have minimum wages that are already set above the federal level with all but 4 being double digits. If you tried to pay a worker $7.25 in a place with a high cost of living like California you're probably not going to attract any job applicants.