Politics

[jprue24]

Well, after countless posts, you've failed to provide a single rational reason why I should pay someone else's debts other than it would help them (while harming me). I've finally accepted that you and others believe your wants and wishes are as valid as my logic and facts and that there's no reasoning with those who think that way. You can't prove that 3x2=6 to those who don't believe in numbers. Therefore, I determined that a bit of humor to make my point was kinder and gentler than using my big words and the full weight of my mind, which, we've learned from experience in the political threads, tends to hurt some feelings, cause a couple of meltdowns and permabans, and frequently results in a need for PTSD therapy from those on the receiving end of such encounters. Therefore, I say to you good sir, "You'd make a fine British shopkeeper, but I regret to inform you that this parrot is no more!"

View attachment 3051918

 

[Bishop2b5]

Facts and logic, yet you've never addressed the economic reasons behind debt servicing or why it is better to have a population with good liquidity. If you count "muh feelings" as logic and facts then I guess you're right. I wish you could use the full weight of your mind to educate us on how exactly your perception of taxation and debt is different from the real world.

Oh good grief! Nobody, least of all me, has argued against liquidity and the value of carrying less debt. I've said the way to that, however, is better financial decisions and being responsible for your own choices, not making bad ones and then demanding others pay your debts. How hard is that to understand? If you're so convinced that forcing the rest of us to pay off someone else's student loans because they borrowed more than they should've to go to a school that was out of their budget to get a degree that had a low market value, then why not pay ALL debt off?

I spent too much on vacations to Hawaii and Europe, bought a Ferrari I couldn't afford, and spent too much on an actual '59 Les Paul. Now I can't dig myself out of debt and have no disposable income. Pay my credit cards off, Toronto! It would improve the debt servicing numbers and I'd then be able to afford new stuff and that would be good for the economy. No? You aren't willing to pay for my bad financial decisions and my debt isn't your responsibility? Well then, now you understand where the rest of us are coming from regarding paying someone else's student loans.

The only one who's ever had a temper tantrum is the very sad man who had to complain about getting about an owner so they could ignore them. Otherwise? Not sure anyone has soiled their diapers quite that hard.

You have me confused with someone else. I've never complained about an owner nor have I ever put anyone on ignore. Soiled my diapers? Seriously? Do you think this is the middle school playground with that attempt at an insult? LOL! Did you really get upset enough from losing a debate and the Norwegian Blue joke to say that? That's hilarious!

 

[ab2cmiller]

You have entered the Toronto Debate Vortex of Death

 

[Bishop2b5]

View attachment 3051919

OK, I've seen the light. Here's my problem. I bought a house that was more than my income justified. I'm paying the rent and tuition for a couple of really sweet girls named Bambi and Brittany from the titty club, I went to Hawaii on vacation, and I bought a Marshall stack and a couple of Custom Shop Les Pauls. Yeah, I know. I probably should've made some more realistic purchases and thought about how I was going to pay for all this, but hey, it's done and no need to dwell on the past. I realize I made some poor financial choices, but I need some help now. So, you being a good guy and not a selfish prick, how about helping me out and paying off my mortgage and credit card debt? If not, please explain why.

 

[NorthDakota]

Rona McDaniel is NOT the leader. Lol. And this assessment is as rosy a picture of the REDShart as I have seen. Not even Faux news is this optimistic. Lol

The Dems flipped governors and whole state houses. Outside of Florida this election was a catastrophe for the GOP. An unmitigated political disaster brought to you by Trump who will announce his running on the 15th and there will be a civil war between him and DeSantis and I got my popcorn ready.

I think the leader is basically the McConnell collective.

New York was also a bright spot. Continuing to trend the right way with minorities is a big bright spot.

Trump's power as a kingmaker is waning. His handpicked people all had a tough time. I think the "civil war" will end up being pretty lame. His puzzling comments about Youngkin and DeSantis were just...sad. Kinda like watching Roethlisberger post-surgery.

 

[TorontoGold]

Oh good grief! Nobody, least of all me, has argued against liquidity and the value of carrying less debt. I've said the way to that, however, is better financial decisions and being responsible for your own choices, not making bad ones and then demanding others pay your debts. How hard is that to understand? If you're so convinced that forcing the rest of us to pay off someone else's student loans because they borrowed more than they should've to go to a school that was out of their budget to get a degree that had a low market value, then why not pay ALL debt off?

I spent too much on vacations to Hawaii and Europe, bought a Ferrari I couldn't afford, and spent too much on an actual '59 Les Paul. Now I can't dig myself out of debt and have no disposable income. Pay my credit cards off, Toronto! It would improve the debt servicing numbers and I'd then be able to afford new stuff and that would be good for the economy. No? You aren't willing to pay for my bad financial decisions and my debt isn't your responsibility? Well then, now you understand where the rest of us are coming from regarding paying someone else's student loans.


You have me confused with someone else. I've never complained about an owner nor have I ever put anyone on ignore. Soiled my diapers? Seriously? Do you think this is the middle school playground with that attempt at an insult? LOL! Did you really get upset enough from losing a debate and the Norwegian Blue joke to say that? That's hilarious!

You think that there is a degree that magically grants you a salary to pay off your student loans quickly? YOU'RE NOT PAYING FOR THEIR DEGREE FFS. My god, the total share of this debt forgiveness that makes up the relative cost of what taxes cover is miniscule. You've conveniently left out the fact that the US is servicing it's debt better than it was previously. This allows for more debt to be taken on. Why can't you wrap your head around that? Why are you missing that point? Is it on purpose, or do you just not understand this concept? Also why can't you articulate how taxes are going to increase to pay for this? I've asked 1000 times yet you can't tell us why. Kind of getting sad at this point.

The fact you mixed in your own debt servicing ability with the US government is.....chefs kiss. Having an educated society is a net benefit for everyone. You can go live in a country like Botswana as a diamond king, you'll be able to keep all of your money but you won't have an educated society.

Let me give you the TLDR on how this gets paid for - GDP increases thus increasing the tax revenues thereby paying for the debt forgiveness.

FTR - I never said "you, Bishop are the one that complained" it was another poster. Step back from ledge, relax. Hopefully that clears it up.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You think that there is a degree that magically grants you a salary to pay off your student loans quickly? YOU'RE NOT PAYING FOR THEIR DEGREE FFS. My god, the total share of this debt forgiveness that makes up the relative cost of what taxes cover is miniscule. You've conveniently left out the fact that the US is servicing it's debt better than it was previously. This allows for more debt to be taken on. Why can't you wrap your head around that? Why are you missing that point? Is it on purpose, or do you just not understand this concept? Also why can't you articulate how taxes are going to increase to pay for this? I've asked 1000 times yet you can't tell us why. Kind of getting sad at this point.

The fact you mixed in your own debt servicing ability with the US government is.....chefs kiss. Having an educated society is a net benefit for everyone. You can go live in a country like Botswana as a diamond king, you'll be able to keep all of your money but you won't have an educated society.

Let me give you the TLDR on how this gets paid for - GDP increases thus increasing the tax revenues thereby paying for the debt forgiveness.

FTR - I never said "you, Bishop are the one that complained" it was another poster. Step back from ledge, relax. Hopefully that clears it up.

Who said anything about a degree that pays off your student loans quickly? They got buried in student loan debt because they went to schools they couldn't afford, got degrees that have little market value and make it much more difficult to pay off than other more useful and valuable degrees, and did it all without regard to the consequences. I got accepted to more than one very expensive school, but knew I couldn't afford to be in debt for decades to pay for it, so I made a better financial decision and I majored in something useful that there was a demand for. They didn't. Their choice. Not my responsibility to bail them out. If you think it's such a great idea, then pay off my mortgage, car payments, and credit cards. Until then, you're just spinning nonsense.

 

[GATTACA!]

Who said anything about a degree that pays off your student loans quickly? They got buried in student loan debt because they went to schools they couldn't afford, got degrees that have little market value and make it much more difficult to pay off than other more useful and valuable degrees, and did it all without regard to the consequences. I got accepted to more than one very expensive school, but knew I couldn't afford to be in debt for decades to pay for it, so I made a better financial decision and I majored in something useful that there was a demand for. They didn't. Their choice. Not my responsibility to bail them out. If you think it's such a great idea, then pay off my mortgage, car payments, and credit cards. Until then, you're just spinning nonsense.

Idk why you're assuming only people that are unable to repay their loans are going to be the ones forgiven. There are millions of people that have student loans that are up to date making payments on them and will in the end pay them off. They didn't make a stupid decision like buying a Ferrari. But forgiving a portion of all of these loans is a net positive for the country.

But I get it, you and I pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and paid off our loans on our own, so fuck'em. Even if it doesn't make sense.

 

[ulukinatme]

Ironic that Meidas Touch wants to talk about dishonor when they fooled donors into thinking the contributions to their PAC would go to electing candidates when it just lined their pockets. When people have questioned them in the past about their funding they've attacked and responded "It's expensive to create the kind of content we do, it's worth it." They claim to be anti-Trump, but they have a lot in common with him.

 

[TorontoGold]

Who said anything about a degree that pays off your student loans quickly? They got buried in student loan debt because they went to schools they couldn't afford, got degrees that have little market value and make it much more difficult to pay off than other more useful and valuable degrees, and did it all without regard to the consequences. I got accepted to more than one very expensive school, but knew I couldn't afford to be in debt for decades to pay for it, so I made a better financial decision and I majored in something useful that there was a demand for. They didn't. Their choice. Not my responsibility to bail them out. If you think it's such a great idea, then pay off my mortgage, car payments, and credit cards. Until then, you're just spinning nonsense.

So you think everyone that's in debt is there because of a poor decision? It's this kind of thinking that allows the rest of us to not take you very seriously when it comes discussing anything involving economics or taxes. You stated that taxes will increase due to this, yet still haven't been able to show why that alarmist faux outrage is anything more than a tinfoil hat theory. The fundamental lack of understanding of how going to school in 60/70s and today is hilarious.

The only one spinning nonsense is the guy pounding his chest about how logical and factual his arguments are, yet they're filled with emotional gripes and clear lack of any economic understanding. It's ok, I understand the target market of those that find comfort in them, they want to feel special and like everything they have is from hard work and that anyone who doesn't have what they do is lazy.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Ironic that Meidas Touch wants to talk about dishonor when they fooled donors into thinking the contributions to their PAC would go to electing candidates when it just lined their pockets. When people have questioned them in the past about their funding they've attacked and responded "It's expensive to create the kind of content we do, it's worth it." They claim to be anti-Trump, but they have a lot in common with him.

Lol you freak out over medias touch and not the actual quote from Liz. Lo. So on point.

 

[NorthDakota]

Ironic that Meidas Touch wants to talk about dishonor when they fooled donors into thinking the contributions to their PAC would go to electing candidates when it just lined their pockets. When people have questioned them in the past about their funding they've attacked and responded "It's expensive to create the kind of content we do, it's worth it." They claim to be anti-Trump, but they have a lot in common with him.

Meidas and Occupy Dems (and any analogous Republican "creators") are gross. Bad people taking advantage of normal folks.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

You have entered the Toronto Debate Vortex of Death

Eh bishop just thinks he is always right and he is 100% totally full of shit.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Meidas and Occupy Dems (and any analogous Republican "creators") are gross. Bad people taking advantage of normal folks.

Doesn’t matter who posted it. It was Liz’s quote. Lol.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Eh bishop just thinks he is always right and he is 100% totally full of shit.

Pot meet kettle

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

State/public employers are claiming to be harmed because they use PSLF to entice/retain talent. This plan would cost them money. We'll see how the courts see that argument.

I'd be careful with the "most definitely because of COVID" thinking. Anyway, here is a Jonathan Turley article. He's much more articulate. Turley Article.

TL;Dr - Biden's CDC eviction failure is similar. His own Justice Dept told him he couldn't do this. He's trying to use Covid as a sword and a shield (arguing in one case that Covid is over; arguing here that it is a national emergency).

We’ve never seen presidents use undefined powers as a sword and shield before.

 

[jprue24]

OK, I've seen the light. Here's my problem. I bought a house that was more than my income justified. I'm paying the rent and tuition for a couple of really sweet girls named Bambi and Brittany from the titty club, I went to Hawaii on vacation, and I bought a Marshall stack and a couple of Custom Shop Les Pauls. Yeah, I know. I probably should've made some more realistic purchases and thought about how I was going to pay for all this, but hey, it's done and no need to dwell on the past. I realize I made some poor financial choices, but I need some help now. So, you being a good guy and not a selfish prick, how about helping me out and paying off my mortgage and credit card debt? If not, please explain why.

For the 3rd time, not all people that carry student debt made bad financial decisions. This is the prick part of you being a selfish prick.

Ignoring that your mortgage and credit card debt did not come from the government... You get a tax break on your mortgage interest payment. I support using this as a way to reduce your taxable income. I also support the government putting regulations on mortgage lenders to ensure that you aren't getting bamboozled into accepting a loan your income cannot justify. You're welcome. Liberals (that I voted for) passed legislation that restricted credit card companies from screwing you over with fees and unfair rate hikes. Again, you're welcome.

More to the point of my picture is your silly claim that you are bring "facts" to this discussion. You started with a fake quote and then made moral arguments about why you don't want the government to provide student loan debt relief. You don't seem to have a problem with the $750B+ in PPP loans that have been forgiven. This is inconsistent with your argument and leads me to believe that since a PPP loan isn't personal to you, that loan relief doesn't invoke a "not fair!" reaction from you. This is the selfish part of you being a selfish prick.

 

[Wild Bill]

OK, I've seen the light. Here's my problem. I bought a house that was more than my income justified. I'm paying the rent and tuition for a couple of really sweet girls named Bambi and Brittany from the titty club, I went to Hawaii on vacation, and I bought a Marshall stack and a couple of Custom Shop Les Pauls. Yeah, I know. I probably should've made some more realistic purchases and thought about how I was going to pay for all this, but hey, it's done and no need to dwell on the past. I realize I made some poor financial choices, but I need some help now. So, you being a good guy and not a selfish prick, how about helping me out and paying off my mortgage and credit card debt? If not, please explain why.

File a bankruptcy and you're fine.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Eh bishop just thinks he is always right and he is 100% totally full of shit.

Says the guy who believed the Steele dossier was true and told us all day every day for three years that it was the smoking gun.

 

[Irish#1]

You have entered the Toronto Debate Vortex of Death

I haven’t laughed this hard in a while! Lol

 

[ulukinatme]

Lol you freak out over medias touch and not the actual quote from Liz. Lo. So on point.

At this point it's a personal spat between two former politicians, and Cheney is on the Democrats dime now so...why should I care what she says?

 

[Irish#1]

My god, the total share of this debt forgiveness that makes up the relative cost of what taxes cover is miniscule.

It's a shame we've entered the realm where $400M is considered miniscule by some. That's how our government debt got to this point. Want to stimulate the economy? There's about 300M people in the U.S. Take that $400M and give everyone a million. Nothing wrong with that right?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Plaintiff in TX lawsuit halting loan relief had PPP loans forgiven

The owner's lawsuit to halt student loan forgiveness won a Thursday ruling.

www.mysanantonio.com

Oh?

 

[Armyirish47]

It's a shame we've entered the realm where $400M is considered miniscule by some. That's how our government debt got to this point. Want to stimulate the economy? There's about 300M people in the U.S. Take that $400M and give everyone a million. Nothing wrong with that right?

You mean other than math?

 

[Irish#1]

Two separate programs, but another example of why the student loan forgiveness and COVID relief are/were bad ideas. Plenty of stories where people tried to fraud the government or manipulate it to their benefit. The governments ability to service and monitor these type of programs has been historically bad and that's with two agencies OMB & GAO to oversee. These programs always end up costing more than what they are touted at.

 

[GowerND11]

The disingenuous argument about student loan debt relief is what really irks me. The broad stroke generalizations that all these people in debt graduated from a private liberal arts school that costs $60K a year with a degree in Gender Studies, Basket Weaving, and Philosophy is bad faith. It doesn't get to the core of the issue, and is an attempt to just scream louder than the other side. If you don't like student loan forgiveness for other, justifiable reasons then you come off as someone who doesn't REALLY have an argument. I went to be a teacher, and went to a state school. My parents made too much money for me to get financial aid, but they never had enough to pay my education. I had to take loans. I knew I wouldn't make a lot of money, but we need teachers. I didn't make a bad decision, but I'm painted as someone who did?

Then the argument shifts to, "well you knew you were taking loans out, you should have known what you were getting into." Yeah, that's partially true. However, we millennials spent the entire 90s and 00s being told we MUST go to college. You can't work in the factories anymore, they're closing. If they aren't closing, they don't have pensions or great insurance anymore. Anecdotally, my parents said this REGULARLY as my dad worked his ass off in a factory swing shift and didn't want me doing the same. So we were conditioned since 1st grade to get to college to live a better life. We do this, now we have people saying, "HA you idiot, you wasted time and money at school," and "NO ONE WANTS TO WORK IN THE TRADES ANYMORE!!! WHYYYYY?!?!" So yeah, paying loans back is tough, we can't declare bankruptcy, private and government loan servicers are raking in the interest with how they calculate it, and again we are left with "should have known before going."

That last part is also a lead to the next. Cost of education now compared to annual inflation. The old boomer quote of, "I worked my way through school." Yeah, because if we adjust for inflation that school tuition now well outpaces the inflation rate from the 60s ad 70s. It's also no wonder that when the government got its hands on loans tuition increased. The schools are bad guys too here. They saw that guaranteed money from the government and upped costs, paying more and more admin, while pay for professors stagnated.

All of this to say, stop the generalizations. You just are the person screaming loudest. Loan holders didn't make bad decisions. They made career decisions. Doctors and lawyers unable to afford to pay loans off. Yeah, they made bad decisions.

 

[TorontoGold]

It's a shame we've entered the realm where $400M is considered miniscule by some. That's how our government debt got to this point. Want to stimulate the economy? There's about 300M people in the U.S. Take that $400M and give everyone a million. Nothing wrong with that right?

It's 1.3% of the total debt and it's cost is over a number of years.

You're not actually advocating for putting 400B of liquidity into the economy right now, right? Unless the goal is hyperinflation?

(This was under the assumption you meant billions not millions despite $400M twice)

 

[irishtrooper]

The disingenuous argument about student loan debt relief is what really irks me. The broad stroke generalizations that all these people in debt graduated from a private liberal arts school that costs $60K a year with a degree in Gender Studies, Basket Weaving, and Philosophy is bad faith. It doesn't get to the core of the issue, and is an attempt to just scream louder than the other side. If you don't like student loan forgiveness for other, justifiable reasons then you come off as someone who doesn't REALLY have an argument. I went to be a teacher, and went to a state school. My parents made too much money for me to get financial aid, but they never had enough to pay my education. I had to take loans. I knew I wouldn't make a lot of money, but we need teachers. I didn't make a bad decision, but I'm painted as someone who did?

Then the argument shifts to, "well you knew you were taking loans out, you should have known what you were getting into." Yeah, that's partially true. However, we millennials spent the entire 90s and 00s being told we MUST go to college. You can't work in the factories anymore, they're closing. If they aren't closing, they don't have pensions or great insurance anymore. Anecdotally, my parents said this REGULARLY as my dad worked his ass off in a factory swing shift and didn't want me doing the same. So we were conditioned since 1st grade to get to college to live a better life. We do this, now we have people saying, "HA you idiot, you wasted time and money at school," and "NO ONE WANTS TO WORK IN THE TRADES ANYMORE!!! WHYYYYY?!?!" So yeah, paying loans back is tough, we can't declare bankruptcy, private and government loan servicers are raking in the interest with how they calculate it, and again we are left with "should have known before going."

That last part is also a lead to the next. Cost of education now compared to annual inflation. The old boomer quote of, "I worked my way through school." Yeah, because if we adjust for inflation that school tuition now well outpaces the inflation rate from the 60s ad 70s. It's also no wonder that when the government got its hands on loans tuition increased. The schools are bad guys too here. They saw that guaranteed money from the government and upped costs, paying more and more admin, while pay for professors stagnated.

All of this to say, stop the generalizations. You just are the person screaming loudest. Loan holders didn't make bad decisions. They made career decisions. Doctors and lawyers unable to afford to pay loans off. Yeah, they made bad decisions.

I can appreciate your path as it’s similar to the path my two oldest are on right now. My oldest daughter also attended state school and is now in law school. The difference is that she worked very hard to save her money and she literally graduated from undergrad with no debt. We purchased a reliable used car for her and cover her insurance costs. That’s it, as we have 3 other children to support. She earned scholarships and applied for every single one she could.

Even though she could benefit, she is not in favor of this program as she has a hard time watching her friends and classmates make poor financial decisions and get “bailed out” by this program. My second daughter is in a similar circumstance and feels the same way. They were raised to hold themselves accountable and to earn what they get. I doubt you or any person believing this is a proper use of our tax money will ever see it the way those against it do, but it’s not an “old man yells at cloud” “get off my lawn” or “self serving greed” or whatever label some will put on it. It’s simply paying off debt the borrower took. The agreement was clear and responsibility is lost here.

That being said, I agree with a lot of what you said and understand your situation. My oldest fully expects to pay off her law school debt and took loans with that understanding. She’s an adult and understood the risk with her choices.

 

[Armyirish47]

I can appreciate your path as it’s similar to the path my two oldest are on right now. My oldest daughter also attended state school and is now in law school. The difference is that she worked very hard to save her money and she literally graduated from undergrad with no debt. We purchased a reliable used car for her and cover her insurance costs. That’s it, as we have 3 other children to support. She earned scholarships and applied for every single one she could.

Even though she could benefit, she is not in favor of this program as she has a hard time watching her friends and classmates make poor financial decisions and get “bailed out” by this program. My second daughter is in a similar circumstance and feels the same way. They were raised to hold themselves accountable and to earn what they get. I doubt you or any person believing this is a proper use of our tax money will ever see it the way those against it do, but it’s not an “old man yells at cloud” “get off my lawn” or “self serving greed” or whatever label some will put on it. It’s simply paying off debt the borrower took. The agreement was clear and responsibility is lost here.

That being said, I agree with a lot of what you said and understand your situation. My oldest fully expects to pay off her law school debt and took loans with that understanding. She’s an adult and understood the risk with her choices.

What if all the borrowers use the relief to buy a reliable used car and pay for insurance? Do they get the bootstrap responsibility merit badge then?

 

[NorthDakota]

There is no real population of medical doctors who can't pay off their loans, and if they do exist, $10-20k isn't going to help them. Frankly, I'm curious how many even qualify. Even low end doctors make a good living.

Lawyers, probably plenty struggle. The median attorney really doesn't make much relative to the cost of school.