Offensive Line Thread

[NDdomer2]

Siereveld was a unwinnable recruitment and we still almost won. And I don’t think the trade off was Siereveld to Otting as much as Siereveld to Pendleton, who Florida and Michigan very much wanted and Clemson probably would have pushed more too if they knew they’d get beat on Absher. They thought they had Absher in the bag. HH took over in late Jan and had what 3 months to take a Buckeye kid from OSU? That is a tough likely impossible ask from anyone.

All this doesn't mean House16's post could be inaccurate

 

[Irish du Nord]

We have no proof that all of them were Hiestand's #1 choice, though. I always take issue with "coach wanted them" arguments when they might have been the coach's plan C or D option. I'll bet anything you put a gun to Hiestand's head he tells you he preferred Freeling to Paige and Siereveld to Otting.

Otting is Tommy's guy, he went to Kansas.

 

[Dale]

All this doesn't mean House16's post could be inaccurate

Didn’t say it was inaccurate. Not being “Plan A” also doesn’t mean “Plan D” is a evaluation that is multiple rings lower in talent nor does Plan A versus D not have large contextual parts to them, which is what I added.

 

[House16]

Siereveld was a unwinnable recruitment and we still almost won. And I don’t think the trade off was Siereveld to Otting as much as Siereveld to Pendleton, who Florida and Michigan very much wanted and Clemson probably would have pushed more too if they knew they’d get beat on Absher. They thought they had Absher in the bag. HH took over in late Jan and had what 3 months to take a Buckeye kid from OSU? That is a tough likely impossible ask from anyone.

Yeah not saying Hiestand sucks at recruitng or anything, just pointing out the logical fallacy of "we signed them, therefore our coach wanted them, trust the coach's evaluation"

 

[CoachB]

I honestly thought these complaints must be sarcasm. But then I kept reading and realized they weren't. Are you kidding? This o line haul is ridiculously good. We have gotten who we wanted. O line is one area I am not concerned with at all.

 

[Irish#1]

We have no proof that all of them were Hiestand's #1 choice, though. I always take issue with "coach wanted them" arguments when they might have been the coach's plan C or D option. I'll bet anything you put a gun to Hiestand's head he tells you he preferred Freeling to Paige and Siereveld to Otting.

I hear you, but the relative speed in which HH has landed these guys tells me they probably weren't backup plans.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I find the concerned talk BS. The only point worth founding an opinion upon is that Coach Hiestand wants these guys.
The rest of this is noise to me, probably based upon having nothing better to worry about.

This.

 

[allenm5333]

My way to evaluate OL classes:
1. How many of these prospects COULD start at ND for 2 years? In this class, I think 5 assuming we only get Jagusah and not Fleming. This is not always the case as 2 years ago Coogan and Johnson were never starters imo.
2. If you can get 3, that is good.
3. Stack this with the previous year

 

[Domina Nostra]

My way to evaluate OL classes:
1. How many of these prospects COULD start at ND for 2 years? In this class, I think 5 assuming we only get Jagusah and not Fleming. This is not always the case as 2 years ago Coogan and Johnson were never starters imo.
2. If you can get 3, that is good.
3. Stack this with the previous year

I agree, although I think 2 out of 4-5 is always the goal. 3 is too much to expect. If the coach is hitting on 2 a year, you have to call that serious success. I think HH had some good years and bad years by this standards.

I really don't think the "trust HH" model is correct.

1) HH was not always a consistent recruiter and took some less than stellar kids to fill holes
2) I also don't really think HH has a history of developing all the guys he gets--certainly not in some unique way
3) If anything, I would say that the lack of development of lower-ranked kids/"projects" is the one knock against him
4) What separates him is not the consistency with which he develops all of his recruits, but the consistency with which he develops his studs into obvious NFL-ready prospects.

The guys HH has developed have been pretty obvious, high-ceiling prospects. There is no doubt, for example, that Georgia has put out some incredible RBs, but they were high 4-star and 5-star talent going in. Same with, say, Alabama linebackers. It is pretty easy to evaluate, say, Nick Chubb, Dante Hightower, or Quinton Nelson.

 

[dankgesang]

I agree, although I think 2 out of 4-5 is always the goal. 3 is too much to expect. If the coach is hitting on 2 a year, you have to call that serious success. I think HH had some good years and bad years by this standards.

I really don't think the "trust HH" model is correct.

1) HH was not always a consistent recruiter and took some less than stellar kids to fill holes
2) I also don't really think HH has a history of developing all the guys he gets--certainly not in some unique way
3) If anything, I would say that the lack of development of lower-ranked kids/"projects" is the one knock against him
4) What separates him is not the consistency with which he develops all of his recruits, but the consistency with which he develops his studs into obvious NFL-ready prospects.

The guys HH has developed have been pretty obvious, high-ceiling prospects. There is no doubt, for example, that Georgia has put out some incredible RBs, but they were high 4-star and 5-star talent going in. Same with, say, Alabama linebackers. It is pretty easy to evaluate, say, Nick Chubb, Dante Hightower, or Quinton Nelson.

Right. Who are some Otting level prospects that have turned into high-level starters/NFL guys primarily under HH's eye? Honest question, I don't know.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Right. Who are some Otting level prospects that have turned into high-level starters/NFL guys primarily under HH's eye? Honest question, I don't know.

OL that ND has signed from 2012 to present (including the 2023 verbals) and their 247 composite national ranking:

2012
Ronnie Stanley 129
Jarron Jones 150
Mark Harrell 488

2013
Hunter Bivin 97
Steve Elmer 115
John Montelus 152
Mike McGlinchey 172
Colin McGovern 193

2014
Quenton Nelson 61
Alex Bars 109
Sam Mustipher 225
Jimmy Byrne 311

2015
Tristen Hoge 89
Jerry Tillery 156
Trevor Ruhland 462

2016
Tommy Kramer 26
Liam Eichenberg 80
Parker Boudreax 403

2017
Robert Hainsey 84
Josh Lugg 120
Aaron Banks 166
Dillan Gibbons 374

2018
Jarret Patterson 369
John Dirksen 515
Luke Jones 516
Cole Mabry 716

2019
Zeke Correll 95
Quinn Carroll 118
Andrew Kristofic 183
John Olmstead 185

2020
Tosh Baker 100
Michael Carmody 146

2021
Blake Fisher 55
Rocco Spindler 60
Caleb Johnson 323
Joe Alt 408
Pat Coogan 612

2022
Aamil Wagner 112
Billy Schrauth 149
Joey Tanona 158
Ty Chan 223
Ashton Craig 521

2023
Sullivan Absher 191
Elijah Paige 335
Sam Pendleton 378
Joe Otting 592

 

[Dale]

3) If anything, I would say that the lack of development of lower-ranked kids/"projects" is the one knock against him
4) What separates him is not the consistency with which he develops all of his recruits, but the consistency with which he develops his studs into obvious NFL-ready prospects.

It’d say the issue with grading HHs development high versus taking issue with some of it is do any of us know a proper baseline? I don’t. Naturally since only 5 OL can play and he’s recruiting roughly 4 kids a year there are going to be busts, especially when factoring in a successful recruit is likely starting for at least 2 years. So what is the average bust rate of upper P5 type OL development? What is it for 3 stars? I genuinely don’t know. We could look to maybe like a OSU that has not Alabama level but good production to compare. I think most think without the numbers that Hiestand likely develops top recruits at an elite rate and lower level recruits at a lagging rate, but how many 3 stars are really panning out when blue chip guys are getting turned to first rounders? Again I don’t know but I think that is the missing piece to any HH argument, what is “normal”.

 

[dankgesang]

It’d say the issue with grading HHs development high versus taking issue with some of it is do any of us know a proper baseline? I don’t. Naturally since only 5 OL can play and he’s recruiting roughly 4 kids a year there are going to be busts, especially when factoring in a successful recruit is likely starting for at least 2 years. So what is the average bust rate of upper P5 type OL development? What is it for 3 stars? I genuinely don’t know. We could look to maybe like a OSU that has not Alabama level but good production to compare. I think most think without the numbers that Hiestand likely develops top recruits at an elite rate and lower level recruits at a lagging rate, but how many 3 stars are really panning out when blue chip guys are getting turned to first rounders? Again I don’t know but I think that is the missing piece to any HH argument, what is “normal”.

For sure, it's not a simple analysis. But I'd like to hear the case why we would expect championship level minutes from any of:

Caleb Johnson 323
Joe Alt 408
Pat Coogan 612

2022
Ashton Craig 521

2023
Elijah Paige 335
Sam Pendleton 378
Joe Otting 592

Based on past experience. Maybe the answer is, and this seems like Dale's point maybe, is that we don't need to/they won't get a chance, because of:

Zeke Correll 95
Quinn Carroll 118
Andrew Kristofic 183
John Olmstead 185

2020
Tosh Baker 100
Michael Carmody 146

2021
Blake Fisher 55
Rocco Spindler 60

2022
Aamil Wagner 112
Billy Schrauth 149
Joey Tanona 158
Ty Chan 223

2023
Sullivan Absher 191

 

[Irish du Nord]

For sure, it's not a simple analysis. But I'd like to hear the case why we would expect championship level minutes from any of:

Caleb Johnson 323
Joe Alt 408
Pat Coogan 612

2022
Ashton Craig 521

2023
Elijah Paige 335
Sam Pendleton 378
Joe Otting 592

Based on past experience. Maybe the answer is, and this seems like Dale's point maybe, is that we don't need to/they won't get a chance, because of:

Zeke Correll 95
Quinn Carroll 118
Andrew Kristofic 183
John Olmstead 185

2020
Tosh Baker 100
Michael Carmody 146

2021
Blake Fisher 55
Rocco Spindler 60

2022
Aamil Wagner 112
Billy Schrauth 149
Joey Tanona 158
Ty Chan 223

2023
Sullivan Absher 191

Maybe cause Alt was, you know, a freshman All American?

 

[Reaper97]

Maybe cause Alt was, you know, a freshman All American?

Is Fisher eligible to be a Freshman All American this season?
I didn’t know if he would be since he played last year, even though he preserved the year of eligibility.

 

[dankgesang]

Maybe cause Alt was, you know, a freshman All American?

Sure that's a good reason for expectations on Alt, but I guess it doesn't really address the original question of whether or not HH can turn low rated guys into high-level contributors. Anyway for the record I'm not worried about OL. Just wanted to address the "the only thing we need to know about these recruits is that Harry wanted them" thought.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

I don’t know if we can ever expect HH (or any coach) to consistently turn lower rated recruits into stars, I think that it unreasonable. However, maximizing the potential for each of the recruits would be a great goal as there are always a few over and under achievers in the mix.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I don’t know if we can ever expect HH (or any coach) to consistently turn lower rated recruits into stars, I think that it unreasonable. However, maximizing the potential for each of the recruits would be a great goal as there are always a few over and under achievers in the mix.

This is what Hiestand is known for. He is one of, if not the best OL coach in the country because he hammers fundamentals, drills his guys on their assignments and maximizes their potential. Look what they do when they hit the league, most aren't fighting for a starter spot, they're fighting for an all star mention or to be named to the All Pro list

Harry is filling the room with top talent, there is enough of a mix that he can trot out 5 good starters at minimum and some years, we should be in contention for the Joe Moore award.

The guys fighting for a starting spot right now are:

2018
Jarret Patterson 369

2019
Zeke Correll 95
Andrew Kristofic 183

2020
Tosh Baker 100
Michael Carmody 146

2021
Blake Fisher 55
Rocco Spindler 60
Joe Alt 408

2022
Billy Schrauth 149


We already know who the bookend are in Fisher and Alt. We know Patterson plays guard or center, most likely guard. Correll takes center and now we have a 5 man battle for the last guard spot. Then next year, we have one more guard spot open. Then we get to talk about whether or not we'll lose our two tackles to 3 and out. And we have a lot of tackle talent waiting in the wings

 

[Old Man Mike]

Bizarre thread. Of all the things that should be driving fans nuts, this isn't one of them. High School athletes who weren't even star-rated have become pros. Sitting around burbling about rankings instead of Coaching Staff personally witnessed workouts is, frankly nuts.

If we're sticking with a picture of 85 scholarships covering 4+ classes, the classic number of OLinemen "in the room" is around 16 (which seems undermanned but it is because the teams need high numbers of "Flyboy" specialists (WRs and especially DBs LBs for peopling the special teams. There are also kicking team specialists to count.) So you shoot for about 16 (Four per year) good prospects.

Of that OLine room, the staff works with all of them, but much moreso with about 8 of them. These are the starters and first-men-in at Tackle and Interior, plus one of the three that can play Center (or replace the guy who must move to Center in case of injury.) The other two slots on the two-deep (I'm simplifying a far greater dynamic) also get good looks, but frankly do not expect to play except in emergency or mop-up. Still, those other two second team slots give those players a chance to show what they can do, and maybe even move up. This semi-fixed structure is what makes it very hard to solve weird injury coincidences like we had at left tackle last season --- there is just no way that the "third" and "fourth" left tackle can have gotten the synchronized work needed to just "sparkle" and step right in. This, by the way, is the main reason you should be impressed that Joe Alt is REALLY special.

As to "developing" understarred players: An OLine coach like Coach Hiestand is going to each year evaluate his room to choose the folks he wants to be his "Iron Five" (plus two/three) that he has to spend the majority of his time upon. If he has been successful in his TWO big studs per year, he has 8 of those sorts of guys in the four classes plus the not-insubstantial likelihood that he has fifth-years. He might EASILY have 9 or 10 recognizable studs out of the 16 (17?) monsters in that room. If the lower rated guy has not outshone the higher rated guy, he won't be in the chosen Great Eight, and won't get nearly the intensity of the five-man unit practice time. If he DOES shine (Like say an NMart) then he'll make the internal cut. This whole mumbling about not developing some of the OLinemen is baloney --- it's built into the five-man unit training intensity of the system. It's certainly not Coach's fault or weakness. Every serious college team has the same situation.

Anyway, I worry a He!l of a lot more about getting (not getting) Great WRs than this OLine stuff, about which I worry not at all. (especially with these recruits.) ..... Otting, lest we forget, is a significant athlete, a very good Basketball player, and is more than willing to play Center. So maybe we can shut up griping about him too.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I think some replies are losing focus of the actual concerns expressed. Notre Dame took 9 OL who were rated outside the top 250 from 2012 through 2018. The only one who became a contributor was Jarret Patterson. So I don't feel inclined to accept assertions that HH's evaluation should be granted a ton of deference. Given how he finished his time recruiting at ND, yes I am somewhat concerned about Hiestand's recruiting. I look at the class that ND put together in 2022 without even having an OL coach in place to head out and recruit.

I wouldn't denigrate any of the kids in the current class because my personal opinion shouldn't be taken that seriously. But ND's attempts at the five star level guys went nowhere and the Jagusah recruitment seems like it coulda shoulda been wrapped up before now. Harry's overall track record as an OL coach has been excellent and I was happy to see him back. But I worry that his work (or lack thereof) on the trail is going to lead to diminishing returns at a time when Notre Dame is otherwise capitalizing. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe this year is a rankings outlier. Or maybe Tommy Rees is on the road offering Otting because he needs to try and cover for a guy he requested to have on his staff.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I think some replies are losing focus of the actual concerns expressed. Notre Dame took 9 OL who were rated outside the top 250 from 2012 through 2018. The only one who became a contributor was Jarret Patterson. So I don't feel inclined to accept assertions that HH's evaluation should be granted a ton of deference. Given how he finished his time recruiting at ND, yes I am somewhat concerned about Hiestand's recruiting. I look at the class that ND put together in 2022 without even having an OL coach in place to head out and recruit.

I wouldn't denigrate any of the kids in the current class because my personal opinion shouldn't be taken that seriously. But ND's attempts at the five star level guys went nowhere and the Jagusah recruitment seems like it coulda shoulda been wrapped up before now. Harry's overall track record as an OL coach has been excellent and I was happy to see him back. But I worry that his work (or lack thereof) on the trail is going to lead to diminishing returns at a time when Notre Dame is otherwise capitalizing. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe this year is a rankings outlier. Or maybe Tommy Rees is on the road offering Otting because he needs to try and cover for a guy he requested to have on his staff.

Pops has said what I was trying to say... thank you!

None of the offers bother me, but I don't think anything indicates to me that there is some HH magic when it comes to spotting or signing talent. The magic is making the great prospects into legit studs.

If history is an indicator, HH will ride the studs from previous classes (Alt, Fisher, and Spindler) and pick up an average of about 1 additional stud per year to add to the mix. So this year, I would expect 1-2 of Absher, Paige, and (hopefully) Jagusah to pan out.

I personally really like Otting, but I who knows if that burst stays with an additional 30 lbs.

But I am a bit more optimistic than Pope about HH's long-term likelihood of success. I think HH's reputation and ND's recent success will bring recruits to him. In his first stint, both he and ND were in a lull. Now they are both proven commodities. At this point, he can point to lots of 10 win seasons and Martin, Nelson, Stanley, etc., etc.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I literally just skipped all those posts talking about ND not recruiting OL well. I don’t even waste time reading crazy stuff like that.

And yet . . . despite being soooooooo consistent at recruiting every year . . . there were no clear answers--much less upperclass answers--at LT, RT, RG, or LG going into 2021.

• OG: both sides were a complete question mark going into the season (presumed starters were Gibbons and Correll) . . . they had to bring in a grad transfer . . . it took half of the season to stabilize the positions, and neither guy was ever really dominant
• LT: a true freshman started the season. While Blake may be that talented, it was almost by default. There were no upperclassmen (e.g., Tosh Baker) pushing him. Sophomore M. Carmody looked fine, but not great, replacing Fisher after his injury. Baker looked bad. Only later did they discover they gem they had with Alt. Hard to argue that the cupboard was stocked.
• RT: Josh Lugg- he simply never was very good (probably due to an injury), but no one on the roster really pushed to replace him all season.

The fact is, ND offensive line recruiting has not been great. Last years freshman class was a homerun and lulled people back to sleep. Here was the Jan 2021 roster:

Graduates:
Joshua Lugg - mediocre (probably due to injuries out of his control)
Dillan Gibbons - mediocre, transferred

Rising Seniors:
Jarrett Patterson - Stud
John Dirksen - ???

Rising Juniors:
Zeke Correll - undersized, good center
Hunter Spears - ???
Andrew Kristofic - slow developing, certainly not a stud yet
Quinn Carroll - ???

Rising Sophomores:
Michael Carmody - looking promising, but injured
Tosh Baker - mediocre

Freshmen:
Blake Fisher - stud
Rocco Spindler - looking promising
Caleb Johnson - ???
Joe Alt - stud
Pat Coogan - ???

The lack of depth at the top was a HH thing.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

And yet . . . despite being soooooooo consistent at recruiting every year . . . there were no clear answers--much less upperclass answers--at LT, RT, RG, or LG going into 2021.

• OG: both sides were a complete question mark going into the season (presumed starters were Gibbons and Correll) . . . they had to bring in a grad transfer . . . it took half of the season to stabilize the positions, and neither guy was ever really dominant
• LT: a true freshman started the season. While Blake may be that talented, it was almost by default. There were no upperclassmen (e.g., Tosh Baker) pushing him. Sophomore M. Carmody looked fine, but not great, replacing Fisher after his injury. Baker looked bad. Only later did they discover they gem they had with Alt. Hard to argue that the cupboard was stocked.
• RT: Josh Lugg- he simply never was very good (probably due to an injury), but no one on the roster really pushed to replace him all season.

The fact is, ND offensive line recruiting has not been great. Last years freshman class was a homerun and lulled people back to sleep. Here was the Jan 2021 roster:

Graduates:
Joshua Lugg - mediocre (probably due to injuries out of his control)
Dillan Gibbons - mediocre, transferred

Rising Seniors:
Jarrett Patterson - Stud
John Dirksen - ???

Rising Juniors:
Zeke Correll - undersized, good center
Hunter Spears - ???
Andrew Kristofic - slow developing, certainly not a stud yet
Quinn Carroll - ???

Rising Sophomores:
Michael Carmody - looking promising, but injured
Tosh Baker - mediocre

Freshmen:
Blake Fisher - stud
Rocco Spindler - looking promising
Caleb Johnson - ???
Joe Alt - stud
Pat Coogan - ???

The lack of depth at the top was a HH thing.

Or a Quinn developmental thing...

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I honestly forgot about Hunter Spears being on the team :/

 

[NDMatt91]

And yet . . . despite being soooooooo consistent at recruiting every year . . . there were no clear answers--much less upperclass answers--at LT, RT, RG, or LG going into 2021.

• OG: both sides were a complete question mark going into the season (presumed starters were Gibbons and Correll) . . . they had to bring in a grad transfer . . . it took half of the season to stabilize the positions, and neither guy was ever really dominant
• LT: a true freshman started the season. While Blake may be that talented, it was almost by default. There were no upperclassmen (e.g., Tosh Baker) pushing him. Sophomore M. Carmody looked fine, but not great, replacing Fisher after his injury. Baker looked bad. Only later did they discover they gem they had with Alt. Hard to argue that the cupboard was stocked.
• RT: Josh Lugg- he simply never was very good (probably due to an injury), but no one on the roster really pushed to replace him all season.

The fact is, ND offensive line recruiting has not been great. Last years freshman class was a homerun and lulled people back to sleep. Here was the Jan 2021 roster:

Graduates:
Joshua Lugg - mediocre (probably due to injuries out of his control)
Dillan Gibbons - mediocre, transferred

Rising Seniors:
Jarrett Patterson - Stud
John Dirksen - ???

Rising Juniors:
Zeke Correll - undersized, good center
Hunter Spears - ???
Andrew Kristofic - slow developing, certainly not a stud yet
Quinn Carroll - ???

Rising Sophomores:
Michael Carmody - looking promising, but injured
Tosh Baker - mediocre

Freshmen:
Blake Fisher - stud
Rocco Spindler - looking promising
Caleb Johnson - ???
Joe Alt - stud
Pat Coogan - ???

The lack of depth at the top was a HH thing.

To be fair, Harry's last season was 2017, so he didn't even get to finish the 2018 class. The 2018 OL class wasn't great, but it's worth noting that Nicholas Petit-Frere was apparently going to commit to ND before Harry left.

The 2020 OL had 4 starters that he recruited (Hainsey, Eichenberg, Banks, Kraemer). The OL won the Joe Moore award his last year and Quinn's first year (2018) had all of Harry's players.

Harry isn't perfect, but there aren't many better OL coaches in the country.

 

[Domina Nostra]

To be fair, Harry's last season was 2017, so he didn't even get to finish the 2018 class. The 2018 OL class wasn't great, but it's worth noting that Nicholas Petit-Frere was apparently going to commit to ND before Harry left.

The 2020 OL had 4 starters that he recruited (Hainsey, Eichenberg, Banks, Kraemer). The OL won the Joe Moore award his last year and Quinn's first year (2018) had all of Harry's players.

Harry isn't perfect, but there aren't many better OL coaches in the country.

"Harry isn't perfect, but there aren't many better OL coaches in the country." That is definitely my opinion, too.

I've also said I like this class.

But everyone behind the scenes agrees that recruiting was neither HH's passion nor his strong suit last time around. And almost none of his lower ranked kids turned into studs. So I am just not buying into the "if Harry recruited him, he must be good" or "Harry gets who he wants and will coach them up."

Again, I think he needs to sign 4-5 per year, and hit on 2. We're on track to do that so I'm happy.

 

[Old Man Mike]

.... hard to tell that this thread is about Charles Jagusah.

.... maybe some day soon.

 

[dankgesang]

.... hard to tell that this thread is about Charles Jagusah.

.... maybe some day soon.

Maybe someday soon you'll stop being a smug, incurious board scold. These are perfectly reasonable points, not attacks on you personally. Get a grip.

 

[Old Man Mike]

There's a thread for this, supercilious gripper

other than that, your contributions are riviting

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Maybe someday soon you'll stop being a smug, incurious board scold. These are perfectly reasonable points, not attacks on you personally. Get a grip.

These aren't perfectly reasonable points in the Charles Jagusah thread. He's highly ranked and we're hopeful we get him. They would be acceptable in the Offensive line thread.

Mike isn't wrong.