Post Game Observations Oklahoma State

[Whiskeyjack]

This leads to the all important question: just how good was ND this year? Zero top 25 wins. Top 10? Fringe top 25?

Wisconsin was top-10 victory, and Purdue top-25.

Our poll ranking (5th) lined up very closely with all the best opponent- adjusted computer models (FEI, SP+, Sagarin). Aside from Georgia, all the traditional powers looked mortal this season, with at least one major weakness.

Despite our roster holes and some awkward personnel/ scheme fits, our offense produced at a top-25 level, and our defense at a top-10 level. We were not overrated.

 

[irishog77]

How bout the comment from the guy who said criticism of Freeman is racist.



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[Sea Turtle]

Gundy didn't have a DC for the game and shut down the Irish Offense in the second half. In fact, he used three position coaches to make the decisions on the OSU defensive scheme. It worked..... I don't know what Freeman had to HC not to call the defense for the game instead of Elston.

Yep. There is no excuse for their staff dancing circles around ours.

 

[Sea Turtle]

So what, in your view, is the problem? 28 years could be a coaching issue, actually (e.g., in which of the NY6 games since 1994 did we have better coaching than the other team?)

This sounds to me like a "curse" theory. If not, tell us what exactly the problem is.

There is no curse theory for me. The problem is that the University breeds soft football teams. A soft football program with soft coaches and players. Physically, mentally and emotionally.

It's the culture.
There is no fire and edge.
There is no 'its us against the world'(and believe me it is)
There is no attitude,glare, tenacity or meanness.
No real leadership. No refuse to lose.
No forward thinking, dynamic, cutting edge coaches.

A culture of playing within the spirit of the rules instead of the actual rules when everyone else is simply playing by the rules.

No cut throat attitude with this team at all when everyone is coming at you with knives out.

As long as all the above continue, this team is going to get gang raped by better teams, and lose to lesser teams that are just hungrier, meaner and nastier.

 

[Dale]

Someone always has a lot more to say when we lose it seems. Spare me the sensational state of the program talk

 

[Whiskeyjack]

There is no curse theory for me. The problem is that the University breeds soft football teams. A soft football program with soft coaches and players. Physically, mentally and emotionally.

It's the culture.
There is no fire and edge.
There is no 'its us against the world'(and believe me it is)
There is no attitude,glare, tenacity or meanness.
No real leadership. No refuse to lose.
No forward thinking, dynamic, cutting edge coaches.

A culture of playing within the spirit of the rules instead of the actual rules when everyone else is simply playing by the rules.

No cut throat attitude with this team at all when everyone is coming at you with knives out.

As long as all the above continue, this team is going to get gang raped by better teams, and lose to lesser teams that are just hungrier, meaner and nastier.

This is impressively wrong. Literally incorrect in every possible way. Over the past decade, ND has fielded tough, disciplined, run first teams, several of which featured championship-level defenses. That's old school football.

We haven't been able to take the next step because Kelly couldn't recruit and develop elite QBs or WRs, so our ball control offenses would always lose to more modern attacks.

Our team culture is among the best in the country.

 

[IrishRazor82]

Again, why are you concerned with Rees? He drastically exceeded all reasonable expectations for yards and points on a top 10 defense. He did it without the emotional leader on that side of the ball and arguably most impactful player.

The first half game plan + execution was the most genius thing I have seen from an ND OC since year one of the Weis era. In the second half, they started press covering and grabbing/holding receivers. Didn’t get calls and players didn’t execute. Coan had a lot of misses, some WRs had drops, Diggs had a screen play where he should have scored but got ankle tackled because he is slow, two ridiculous drive killing turnovers, etc. Is what it is, but stuff was open.

ND has 99 problems but offensive scheme isn’t one. They have 9 months to teach Buchner how to be a pocket passer and if he can read defenses/throw accurately then watch out.

You know what crushes man to man press coverage? A QB running a true RPO to an unmanned edge. And we have one of the best in CFB at that. Boom, there's your adjustment.

Having a game plan is one thing. Absolutely shitting your pants once the other team does what every team does, adjusts, was a historic embarassment.

 

[irishtrooper]

This is impressively wrong. Literally incorrect in every possible way. Over the past decade, ND has fielded tough, disciplined, run first teams, several of which featured championship-level defenses. That's old school football.

We haven't been able to take the next step because Kelly couldn't recruit and develop elite QBs or WRs, so our ball control offenses would always lose to more modern attacks.

Our team culture is among the best in the country.

Exactly. I wanted this to be a W as well, but IT WAS ONE GAME. One game for a first time coach. I’m not convinced the sky is falling because this overachieving team lost a close game to a top 10 team in our new/young coach’s very first game. Taking all the craziness since Stanford, it’s impressive how it started. Just couldn’t finish. Hopefully TB is what we all hope and it’s a great season next year. Lots of “passion” here

 

[ThePiombino]

I think it was Diggs, because I remember thinking “wow Tyree would’ve scored there.”

God bless Diggs - a freshman doing the best he can - but there were 3-4 pivotal plays he was involved with that 100% would have played out differently (for the better) if Kyren played. This play included.

 

[ThePiombino]

Wonder if we could have run for a few first downs with TB12 getting some reps? Would have been nice to see.

huge missed opportunity here. Not only for ND's sake, but also TB's...

 

[IrishTusker]

Kelly was never favored or even close in any of the NY6/playoff games they were in. I will agree he was always out coached but he was also outgunned. Freeman was totally outcoached and had the Breyer players. I will say this is another example of our opponent having a vastly superior QB to ours and that matters. Coan played well but he also made some crucial errors and misses. Not to mention never taking off and picking up some yards with his feet. That puts the D on notice and he is either stupidl, chicken or I don’t know what when he hardly ever uses his legs for us. Kudos to our Oline for their protection but I will stay say the two sacks Coan took were a pathetic commentary on his ability to avoid them. Goes down way too easy. Buchner would have had numbers more like Saunders and we would have had a run game. Our RBs will be kicking their chops as will our Olineman at the prospect of Coan moving on and TB getting inserted.

Not inserting TB for one series in the second half was a pathetic lack of coaching. So we really think Kelly was going on to sit back and continue to watch Coan and Rees punk out over and over? No Fn way!

Okay, but Kelly was here 11 years and only in 4 NY6 games. How about all of the years where we had the talent to be in a NY6 game and were not? E.g., 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2019? The bottom line is the same. He doesn't get a pass on seasons like, say, 2014, just because the disasters occurred in-season rather than in a NY6 game.

Whatever, anyway. BK is gone, and that was his choice, not ours (although I would have moved on after 2016).

 

[ND88]

There is no curse theory for me. The problem is that the University breeds soft football teams. A soft football program with soft coaches and players. Physically, mentally and emotionally.

It's the culture.
There is no fire and edge.
There is no 'its us against the world'(and believe me it is)
There is no attitude,glare, tenacity or meanness.
No real leadership. No refuse to lose.
No forward thinking, dynamic, cutting edge coaches.

A culture of playing within the spirit of the rules instead of the actual rules when everyone else is simply playing by the rules.

No cut throat attitude with this team at all when everyone is coming at you with knives out.

As long as all the above continue, this team is going to get gang raped by better teams, and lose to lesser teams that are just hungrier, meaner and nastier.

The irony being that the way you describe all this sounds weak as hell. You rarely have anything good to say about this program (yet funnily enough, I do recall you having good cheer in your heart for Ohio State). Which if you balanced your attack on Notre Dame's program, you might have more cause for support about edge. I don't disagree with you necessarily about improving the culture, but Notre Dame is not one long-standing team. Different coaches develop teams differently. And after one game with a new head coach you decide you want to go on a diatribe. I would argue it might be better to follow a different team if football is this black and white to you. The college game has the challenge of nuance given that 95% of CFB world is living in the shadow of NFL feeders like Alabama. And by the way, if you watched the game without imploding, there are also football REASONS (beyond emotion) why teams have weak points that can be exploited. Freeman has to correct these weak points and drive home his program with actual strategy, grit, and development, and I'm 110% positive your hyperbole is not going to solve the hardest work that needs to be done. But yes, edge will be important. It's just not going to happen with immediacy given there is a culture that has to be further developed by a new coach.

 

[Sea Turtle]

This is impressively wrong. Literally incorrect in every possible way. Over the past decade, ND has fielded tough, disciplined, run first teams, several of which featured championship-level defenses. That's old school football.

We haven't been able to take the next step because Kelly couldn't recruit and develop elite QBs or WRs, so our ball control offenses would always lose to more modern attacks.

Our team culture is among the best in the country.

And that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

I disagree that we have had championship level defenses. They get shredded against real teams. They were dangerously closed to having 50 dropped on them against Okie State yesterday.

Tough? The players get coaches fired for being too 'mean'. They would be in tears playing for Alabama.

There is no junkyard dog attitude, fire, edge, nastiness in our culture. I've seen our qb get hit out of bounds on late hits and not only is there no jawing and getting in faces on the sidelines, they just stand there and don't even help their qb up.

Tough minded teams and coaches don't get absolutely owned from 1 minute left in the first half yesterday from a second rate Big 12 program. Like the headlines said. It was 'stunning', 'jaw dropping, 'total collapse', 'Blows 21 point lead' bad.

Marcus Freeman is right. The honeymoon is already over.

 

[IrishTusker]

And that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

I disagree that we have had championship level defenses. They get shredded against real teams. They were dangerously closed to having 50 dropped on them against Okie State yesterday.

Tough? The players get coaches fired for being too 'mean'. They would be in tears playing for Alabama.

There is no junkyard dog attitude, fire, edge, nastiness in our culture. I've seen our qb get hit out of bounds on late hits and not only is there no jawing and getting in faces on the sidelines, they just stand there and don't even help their qb up.

Tough minded teams and coaches don't get absolutely owned from 1 minute left in the first half yesterday from a second rate Big 12 program. Like the headlines said. It was 'stunning', 'jaw dropping, 'total collapse', 'Blows 21 point lead' bad.

Marcus Freeman is right. The honeymoon is already over.

In fairness, HH is apparently coming back. I'm not sure how much the 'meanness' issue is unique to ND vs. just younger player as opposed to older players.

 

[TorontoGold]

There is no curse theory for me. The problem is that the University breeds soft football teams. A soft football program with soft coaches and players. Physically, mentally and emotionally.

It's the culture.
There is no fire and edge.
There is no 'its us against the world'(and believe me it is)
There is no attitude,glare, tenacity or meanness.
No real leadership. No refuse to lose.
No forward thinking, dynamic, cutting edge coaches.

A culture of playing within the spirit of the rules instead of the actual rules when everyone else is simply playing by the rules.

No cut throat attitude with this team at all when everyone is coming at you with knives out.

As long as all the above continue, this team is going to get gang raped by better teams, and lose to lesser teams that are just hungrier, meaner and nastier.

I'm curious on your sources being better than ISD/247BGI etc, because I haven't heard of any culture problems from people that are, you know, actually around the players. Unless of course you've spent countless hours hanging out with the teams of the past, this is all bluster because you're not actually pointing to the issues that are holding them back.

No fire and edge? You watched Nelson play right? Harrison Smith right?
No us against the world? 33 Trucking? You missed out on the FreemanEra hashtag?
No attitude? Rylie Mills and Botelho are a good start if you want some players with attitude.
No leadership? I don't need to write out the outstanding captains that have been on the team.
No forward thinking? You miss out on the Freeman hire, the #1 DC candidate at that time?

Exit Sea Man. (Reference to when ND went into a hostile environment when they had "the knives out" and clowned them.)

 

[Sea Turtle]

In fairness, HH is apparently coming back. I'm not sure how much the 'meanness' issue is unique to ND vs. just younger player as opposed to older players.

I'm glad he's coming back. He's needed badly. What a travesty it was that we couldn't even attempt to run against Okie State yesterday when they didn't even have a DC. It was embarrassing.

 

[BeatSC]

I'm glad he's coming back. He's needed badly. What a travesty it was that we couldn't even attempt to run against Okie State yesterday when they didn't even have a DC. It was embarrassing.

The running game all season has worked when Buchner was in a floundered with Coan in. It’s flabbergasting that Buchner was not inserted to see if a change up would help. Rees’ first half wizardry will and should be overshadowed by his nincompoopness of the second half.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

I'm curious on your sources being better than ISD/247BGI etc, because I haven't heard of any culture problems from people that are, you know, actually around the players. Unless of course you've spent countless hours hanging out with the teams of the past, this is all bluster because you're not actually pointing to the issues that are holding them back.

No fire and edge? You watched Nelson play right? Harrison Smith right?
No us against the world? 33 Trucking? You missed out on the FreemanEra hashtag?
No attitude? Rylie Mills and Botelho are a good start if you want some players with attitude.
No leadership? I don't need to write out the outstanding captains that have been on the team.
No forward thinking? You miss out on the Freeman hire, the #1 DC candidate at that time?

Exit Sea Man. (Reference to when ND went into a hostile environment when they had "the knives out" and clowned them.)

Sea Turtle is right but not for the silly reasons he listed. Notre Dame administration is in a quandary. Football is its brand but administration does not want to “sell its soul” to compete at the highest level. They would prefer the mediocrity with an occasional dash of competence to give the illusion of competing.

The Freeman hire is a great example. It is safe (in house) and it checks all the boxes (young, fan approved, media approved, player approved). The hire gives the illusion that the admin cares about the football program. Recall they searched long and hard. Of all the potential candidates, Freeman (who is inexperienced as a coordinator) is the most qualified candidate to head our storied program. Think about that. If he miraculously succeeds (BKelly level of success), the admin will be giddy…until Freeman decides to move on from the stepping stone that Notre Dame will have (if it isn’t already) become. If Freeman fails, the cult that worships him will shield the admin from accountability. The illusion continues.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

The running game all season has worked when Buchner was in a floundered with Coan in. It’s flabbergasting that Buchner was not inserted to see if a change up would help. Rees’ first half wizardry will and should be overshadowed by his nincompoopness of the second half.

Buchner would not have helped. The problem was that these “Wunderkind” coaches thought a game plan without a running game would be enough to win at this level. They prepped for an air raid offense and when it OSU adjusted there was no backup.

 

[Dale]

The running game all season has worked when Buchner was in a floundered with Coan in. It’s flabbergasting that Buchner was not inserted to see if a change up would help. Rees’ first half wizardry will and should be overshadowed by his nincompoopness of the second half.

The running game did not work versus UC or Wisconsin. We all knew it likely wouldn’t work versus Ok St either. It’s not a Buchner versus not thing it was a really good run D versus not thing.

 

[TorontoGold]

Sea Turtle is right but not for the silly reasons he listed. Notre Dame administration is in a quandary. Football is its brand but administration does not want to “sell its soul” to compete at the highest level. They would prefer the mediocrity with an occasional dash of competence to give the illusion of competing.

The Freeman hire is a great example. It is safe (in house) and it checks all the boxes (young, fan approved, media approved, player approved). The hire gives the illusion that the admin cares about the football program. Recall they searched long and hard. Of all the potential candidates, Freeman (who is inexperienced as a coordinator) is the most qualified candidate to head our storied program. Think about that. If he miraculously succeeds (BKelly level of success), the admin will be giddy…until Freeman decides to move on from the stepping stone that Notre Dame will have (if it isn’t already) become. If Freeman fails, the cult that worships him will shield the admin from accountability. The illusion continues.

Because a hire is popular does not make it wrong.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Originally posted by IrishLax View Post
"Elston went full Tenuta. Friends never let friends go full Tenuta."


Hilarious! I literally yelled this at my TV. "ENOUGH WITH THE FAILED BLITZING, TENUTA!!"

I've had some time to digest this loss. It's still triggers nausea and anger. But I'll give my two cents for free anyways.

• Hell of a start to the game. Wow, that was fun!
• Defense getting gashed at the end of the first half should've been a huge warning sign that OSU was starting to figure out the pressures.
• Not even attempting to get 3 points before halftime 1) after having moved the ball ease all half 2) after OSU just scored a TD and 3) OSU gets the ball to start second. WTF?!
• No defensive adjustments. Irish Illustrated has been commenting ALL SEASON LONG about how our LBs can be vulnerable in space and in defending the pass. Once OSU made adjustments, why didn't Elston/Freeman counter?
• Irish Illustrated also previewed this game (recorded while Hart was reported being hurt and questionable) by saying, (paraphrased) "Thank God ND isn't playing an air raid style offense. The drop off at DB is awful given the fact that Hamilton isn't playing and Hart may not be either, or if he does, he's not 100%" Something along those lines. Credit to OSU for completely and totally exploiting that weakness. That is what good coaching staffs do. ND did absolutely NOTHING to counter that. I actually felt bad for Lewis by the end of it.
• Second half offense was a joke. 1) ND doesn't have the WR depth to run that many pass plays. People are pissed that Lenzy and Austin disappeared in the second half....are you serious? ND has what 3? 4? scholarship WRs available for that game? The only time these guys got a break was when Rees subbed in TE packages that failed miserably to achieve anything on the ground. That is a massive issue that needs to get figured out asap. Thank God for HH reportedly coming back. I hope that helps the run game.
• I get that Coan was literally breaking records, but when everything fell apart in the third quarter, why didn't Rees send in Buchner as a change of pace? Throw a curveball at OSU and get them to back the F off. I feel like ND punched first and when OSU punched back, ND coward (and that is not at all the style of ND we've all come to know and love). What caused that? At the very least, maybe TB helps get the run game going, pick up some first downs, and give the defense a break.
• Overall, this loss ranks pretty high as most disappointing losses in my lifetime as a fan. Some of those big matchups against Bama, etc, ND was never supposed to win. This was the year to break the NY6 streak and ND came out on fire like they weren't going to just end the streak, they were going to abolish it existence. Only to give up a 3 TD lead for the second time this season to an offense that has no business being able to make that kind of comeback. Absolutely gut wrenching.
• Buckle up. Game 1 at The Shoe next year is going to be interesting. I'm not buying a single drop of ND hype this off season. F'ing prove it for a change.

*Moved post from other Fiesta Bowl thread.

 

[Valpodoc85]

The de-emphasize football idea has been around since Hesburgh. I believe he was interested in the idea. Not sure how true it is with the current administration especially since they split off football operations 5-6 years ago. Football is a win win for the Dome. I think they want to compete at the highest level. I'm just not sure they know what that entails

 

[stpeteirish]

Rees had a great game plan in the first half and then did NOT seem to make adjustments in the 2nd. He was still calling hitch routes at the sticks, as if the OSU DB's were still giving them a buffer...they were not.

He completely abandoned the run game in the 4th quarter, which was idiotic. Go ask Mike Leach how successful you can be against a good defense when throwing the ball 50+ times every game. You HAVE to run the ball at some point. Last time I checked, averaging over 3 yards per carry isn't enough reason to stop running.

3:07 left to play in the game, all 3 T.O.'s - they get 4 yards on the first play - RUN THE DAMN BALL

I have no faith in Rees - I understand the stats they put up - but my guess is Kyren would not have gotten the yards he had if BK wasn't the coach. BK wants to run the ball first, Rees wants to have Andre Ware as his QB.

Mike Leach is probably the last guy on earth I'd ask that question to.

 

[IrishLax]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/jamieuyeyama/status/1478027262373117956?s=21[/TWEET]

Basically, once Oklahoma State spread ND out at the end of the first half they went back to 4 WR repeatedly and ND did not have an answer. The reason ND didn’t have an answer is that they had a mismatch on on our LBs (both receivers and in the QB run game) and on Lewis and it forced the safeties to be difference makers (they aren’t).

From Freeman’s comments they weren’t prepared for it because they didn’t run it virtually all year. So it was a new look and Elston was lost. Freeman needed to step in earlier.

Someone smarter than me can probably say what the adjustment was that they were supposed to make but I’m guessing it was either to go to a 3 down front or get the LBs off the field and play “3rd down defense” on every down.

 

[IrishRazor82]

There is no curse theory for me. The problem is that the University breeds soft football teams. A soft football program with soft coaches and players. Physically, mentally and emotionally.

It's the culture.
There is no fire and edge.
There is no 'its us against the world'(and believe me it is)
There is no attitude,glare, tenacity or meanness.
No real leadership. No refuse to lose.
No forward thinking, dynamic, cutting edge coaches.

A culture of playing within the spirit of the rules instead of the actual rules when everyone else is simply playing by the rules.

No cut throat attitude with this team at all when everyone is coming at you with knives out.

As long as all the above continue, this team is going to get gang raped by better teams, and lose to lesser teams that are just hungrier, meaner and nastier.

ND didn't look soft when it went into Georgia a few years ago and were a drive away from winning on the road in a game the Georgia program went all out in.

We're just missing an elite QB dude, and we may be close!

 

[Dale]

The problem is Saban said before our Playoff game that the key is being multiple. We can’t be right now with our personnel. At Bama to start the year, Moore was the set Nickel. Branch - Dime. Chris Allen - SAM. That’s the ability to go anything from base 3-4 to Dime with guys you consider “starters”. We all year had no one you can say I’ll confidently put him in as a Dime package. Heck we were basically trying to mask the second S most the year.

Could have tried benching Lewis. Could have tried seeing Watts or a FR try to play Dime. Instead they rode Lewis and stuck with Kiser. I guess you could have tried the first option but not hard to see why they stuck with the second.

Ok St didn’t show it all year because they thought similar to our previous teams. D and ball control gets us a W. They went bold and on a different day or with Hamilton in there it might have meant 3 INTs from Sanders like we’ve seen before. He just played well, unfortunately for us.

 

[chicago51]

And that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

I disagree that we have had championship level defenses. They get shredded against real teams. They were dangerously closed to having 50 dropped on them against Okie State yesterday.

Tough? The players get coaches fired for being too 'mean'. They would be in tears playing for Alabama.

There is no junkyard dog attitude, fire, edge, nastiness in our culture. I've seen our qb get hit out of bounds on late hits and not only is there no jawing and getting in faces on the sidelines, they just stand there and don't even help their qb up.

Tough minded teams and coaches don't get absolutely owned from 1 minute left in the first half yesterday from a second rate Big 12 program. Like the headlines said. It was 'stunning', 'jaw dropping, 'total collapse', 'Blows 21 point lead' bad.

Marcus Freeman is right. The honeymoon is already over.

You can’t stop teams at the top 4-5 level. Nick Saban couldn’t stop Clemson, or LSU in 2019 . And Nick has all the best players. Kirby Smart couldn’t stop Nick Saban in the SEC championship during an offensive rebuilding year, and he’s got the most 5 star recruits on defense.

It’s not offense wins games, defense wins championships anymore. Defense will get you into the final 4 but you got to score 30 (at least) when you get there.

ND held Bama to their lowest point total of the season in 2020, yeah maybe Bama would have got another TD if they didn’t call off the dogs. But they hung 52 on Ohio State in the title game. Clemson blasted Bama in 2018 title game worse than they blasted ND in the semi finals.

A championship level defense in 2021 is holding one these top offenses under 30 points which ND was capable of in 2018 and 2020, if there offense would have actually gotten first downs. Now maybe defenses will catch up to what offenses are doing, you’ll see that bench mark shift. But in present day college football, holding the top teams under 28-30 points is championship defense.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

He just played well, unfortunately for us.

We could have masked our deficiencies at DB if our front-7 was getting home. But OSU's OL won that battle as well.

 

[Dale]

I also posted elsewhere I think even one Hamilton PBU/INT could have really altered things. Sanders is very temperamental and a Superman Hamilton play would have deterred him competely or led to INTs if he went off the rocker like he’s prone to.