COVID-19

[ab2cmiller]

I can't quite understand your biological claims. I have a background in biochemistry so I'm happy to engage in serious discussion. I think those who are choosing to not vaccinate are putting themselves in a disadvantaged position as we move forward in time.

Natural immunity is great as long as it isn't accompanied with any of the well-documented long term issues that's been correlated with COVID-19.

Tell me more about this spiked protein? What is it? Why is it a concern to you? What test was performed that showed this spike and what does it signify?

Do you already have a family supply of Ivermectin? Where did you purchase this? Are you confident it hasn't been cut with other agents? Have you laid out the dosing for you and/or your family? Confident you'll have a steady supply? Are you confident enough in your scientific understanding that you can live with the consequences should something go awry?

Always a good way to engage in a serious discussion.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Always a good way to engage in a serious discussion.

Trait is correct. The objective data on 1) unvaccinated people making up almost 100% of covid-related hospitalizations 2) a new variant that is more contagious and more severe than the former 3) long-term health complications correlated with Covid infection is undeniable. Simply "letting your immune system do what it's supposed to do" is a massive risk and should be met with condescension as it's wildly unsupported by any raw data. Razor likes to make claims without citing any legitimate evidence of support.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Trait is correct. The objective data on 1) unvaccinated people making up almost 100% of covid-related hospitalizations 2) a new variant that is more contagious and more severe than the former 3) long-term health complications correlated with Covid infection is undeniable. Simply "letting your immune system do what it's supposed to do" is a massive risk and should be met with condescension as it's wildly unsupported by any raw data. Razor likes to make claims without citing any legitimate evidence of support.

He may be correct, but I was pointing out the insincere offer to have a serious discussion. Instead he was openly mocking him. Just give us the facts and stop with the ridicule.

 

[Trait Expectations]

He may be correct, but I was pointing out the insincere offer to have a serious discussion. Instead he was openly mocking him. Just give us the facts and stop with the ridicule.

How was I mocking? Those were legitimate questions. He's put a lot of faith in Ivermectin and I want to know more about his strategy and how he thinks it'll play out. He's certainly read enough information to make a decision for himsel/his family. I'd like to know what steps he's taken to ensure his plan works and/or deal with the fallout if there is a negative event.

My post above was completely sincere. I'm mildly taken aback at your certainty of my post being disingenuous.

 

[TorontoGold]

Trait is correct. The objective data on 1) unvaccinated people making up almost 100% of covid-related hospitalizations 2) a new variant that is more contagious and more severe than the former 3) long-term health complications correlated with Covid infection is undeniable. Simply "letting your immune system do what it's supposed to do" is a massive risk and should be met with condescension as it's wildly unsupported by any raw data. Razor likes to make claims without citing any legitimate evidence of support.

When someone makes the below post, how else are you supposed to respond? I don't think Trait's post was near the angst of the below post. Missed where Trait would say he would babysit or called Razor a dead end. lol

"These are not my sources. The two doctors in the video provide a link to all of their sources. I'm not going to spend the time to go get them, read/post them here. If you want to dismiss it that's fine, but it's readily available if you want to take the discussion seriously, I'm just not going to babysit.

I know a dead end when I see one. If 3 people watched the video, I'm satisfied. No level headed, unbias person who's truly interested in the "science" can listen and not leave with some serious concerns about the gravity behind this. You may not fall into this category, you seem addicted to the vaccine and dismissive of the mounting evidence it's not the only (or best) preventative or treatment.

Hence, dead end."

 

[ab2cmiller]

How was I mocking? Those were legitimate questions. He's put a lot of faith in Ivermectin and I want to know more about his strategy and how he thinks it'll play out. He's certainly read enough information to make a decision for himsel/his family. I'd like to know what steps he's taken to ensure his plan works and/or deal with the fallout if there is a negative event.

My post above was completely sincere. I'm mildly taken aback at your certainty of my post being disingenuous.

LOL just stop. Family supply? Cut with other agents? Yes those are logical questions.

 

[PerthDomer]

But steroids won't fill the wallets of Big Pharma.

Steroids are the mainstay of COVID therapy in addition to normal critical care we provide for other severe illness similar to it. My point is lack of benefit to "big pharma" doesn't stop doctors from using cheap meds and trials looking at them. YouTube videos and poorly constructed trials dont hold weight in medicine.

 

[Trait Expectations]

LOL just stop. Family supply? Cut with other agents? Yes those are logical questions.

What the fuck are you on about? Please indulge me: Where do you purchase ivermectin? Where do you get enough for a family in case of a household infection? Are you confident that what you are purchasing is 100% the real deal? After a quick google search, I see it's not OTC. I don't know many docs that allow you to call and request specific antibiotics/anti-fungals. Which means I'm assuming many people will be trying to buy it online, which is fraught with peril.

Maybe there is an easier path to using Ivermectin.

It's really weird when you attempt to have a conversation and one person keeps butting in with a smile and says "LOL just stop". Either offer some input or kindly GTFO.

 

[ab2cmiller]

What the fuck are you on about? Please indulge me: Where do you purchase ivermectin? Where do you get enough for a family in case of a household infection? Are you confident that what you are purchasing is 100% the real deal? After a quick google search, I see it's not OTC. I don't know many docs that allow you to call and request specific antibiotics/anti-fungals. Which means I'm assuming many people will be trying to buy it online, which is fraught with peril.

Maybe there is an easier path to using Ivermectin.

It's really weird when you attempt to have a conversation and one person keeps butting in with a smile and says "LOL just stop". Either offer some input or kindly GTFO.

Deleted my mocking post as that was stooping to a level that I shouldn't have.

 

[phork]

The absence of a peer reviewed, "gold standard", double blind study does not mean we know nothing - you realize those take time, coordination, funding, and most importantly.... time. We were in a pandemic and a number of hospitals/regions/doctors got in on Ivermectin and the results they all found are the same: 100% safe, immediate improvement if already had COVID, and incredible strong preventative properties.

Everyone else is waiting on the gigantic, pharmaceutically funded "gold standard" and in the meantime, 100's of thousands have and will continue to die by avoiding talking about Ivermectin in regards to preventing and treating COVID.

But yet we have these studies for vaccines that were made in less than a year. And readily available.
You also keep saying ivermectin is safe. It's safe for use it was prescribed for and in every study I have read the dosage required to affect covid is multiples of over dosing. Also side effects include (cut and pasted) Tachycardia, orthostatic hypotension, and PR interval prolongation, among others.

 

[PerthDomer]

But yet we have these studies for vaccines that were made in less than a year. And readily available.
You also keep saying ivermectin is safe. It's safe for use it was prescribed for and in every study I have read the dosage required to affect covid is multiples of over dosing. Also side effects include (cut and pasted) Tachycardia, orthostatic hypotension, and PR interval prolongation, among others.

I work in pediatric critical care. There are questions that don't lend themselves to RCT's (usually rare diseases, common diseases with rare impacts etc.). COVID lends itself incredibly well to performing RCT's. Other study types are good at generating hypotheses that are ideally answered by a follow on RCT.

Also, if the scottish data is accurate and Delta/Indian variant is 60% contagious and causes double the hospitalization rate some areas of the country are in for rough winters.

 

[Irish#1]

Morgan Stanley's CEO wants workers in NYC back in the office by the end of the summer.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/investing/morgan-stanley-ceo-return-to-office/index.html

 

[BobbyMac]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/ClayBMiller/status/1405495329873698816[/TWEET]

 

[RDU Irish]

So I will share my COVID experience. Got it second week of May. After feeling crappy for a week and developing a fever I got tested and came up positive. Sent home with zero instruction other than rest up and quarantine. After living on the porch for over a week I had to stay overnight in the hospital to get steroids and low flow oxygen since I developed what would lazily be called pneumonia which really was a reduced lung function. Started with aches and pains that evolved into about 10 days of screen door shits and fevers. Wore my ass out like any flu would and being an indestructible I thought I would push through. Well winded to the point of laying down after going up a flight of stairs should have been a trip to the doctor but I thought I would tough it out for a more few days, fever had to kick soon and my butthole had turned inside out yet. Sent me straight to the hospital when I went to urgent care with pulse ox in high 80s. Thankfully fever broke that morning so in that way felt "better", first non-liquid poo the next day- seemed relevant to me but hospital nurse laughed at me and didn't take note. Steroids kicked in quickly and I was kicked out within 24 hours, probably a day too soon. Three weeks later I still fatigue with much activity but noticeable improvement each day. Probably another week from getting back to full activity levels now. At no point and time was I afraid of kicking the bucket and neither was the ID doctor, just felt like an inordinately large pile of shit.

Given the incredibly poor guidance from both the Urgent Care when diagnosed and the hospital staff who treated me later. I really don't have much good to say about our healthcare system doing much to help people take care of themselves. Customer service is a foreign concept too. I had no vitals visible to me - #1 concern was pulse ox levels, how is that not on a screen in my room somewhere? If I were a lazy ass and didn't get up and move around I am sure they would have kept me for a week. I asked about taking the oxygen off to see how I do while cleaning up and moving around - oh great idea! WTF was their plan? Really, hospitals only care about stabilizing the patient enough to kick their ass out with enough confidence you won't boomerang back. Would I have benefited from a few more days of supplemental oxygen? They didn't GAF, they needed the bed and this healthy 40 something wasn't going to die.

Still pissed at the lack of guidance at initial positive testing. After a year and a half you would think there would be more proactive response available than "take two Tylenol and don't call me in the morning". My advice to anyone feeling like shit out there:
1) Prone sleeping/positioning to improve lung function - your lungs work better if you lay face down apparently
2) Pulse oximeter ($12 on Amazon) if you ain't hitting mid 90s you ain't right. Fucking $12 device to monitor the most important metric affecting COVID patients and not recommended?
3) Probably an Albuterol inhaler
4) Zinc and Vit D
5) Pound fluids - people were surprised I wasn't dehydrated after pissing out my ass for 10 days. Well I'm not afraid to keep flushing the system. At least I did one thing right.

Those things probably would have kept me out of the hospital - may have avoided getting so bad but more likely would have been able to get steroid treatment from primary doctor or urgent care quite a few days earlier rather than shoved in to hospital after worsening further. But they got their COVID hospitalization money and stats.

Also will note I had been burning the candle at both ends for the month leading up to this, including the wife working 6 days straight prior to initial symptoms - so I am sure my immune system was less on point than usual. Otherwise no different activity than the previous 15+ months in which I was able to avoid the boogey man. In hindsight, I would trade a few days of discomfort from the vaccine for my round trip experience, but if I didn't get it for 15 months, what is the rush? I thought I had it Feb 2020 and wasn't too concerned about getting a vaccine ASAP since natural immunity is probably superior anyway. Let the old and fat get it first, I would get around to it later since I had nothing statistically to worry about from a mortality perspective. I knew I would need it to travel at some point, but no plans in the immediate future so meh.

 

[Irish#1]

Glad you're recovering okay. Hopefully no lasting effects.

 

[RDU Irish]

Glad you're recovering okay. Hopefully no lasting effects.

Thanks - time will tell.

 

[Trait Expectations]

Happy you don't have continued lung dysfunction and hope you continue on a quick path of recovery RDU. Thanks for sharing

 

[IrishRazor82]

Paper on 18 studies: https://journals.lww.com/americanthe...ing_the.4.aspx

Conclusions:

• Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance.
• Results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin.
• Ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.
• It has been proved safe and been used over 4 billion times since 1975.

This is widely available, essentially free, and calling it "the crime of the century" that this is being suppressed is being too kind. Doctors are being ripped off of social media and discredited for being right early and often - and that should scare the hell out of anyone who's still thinking.

 

[PerthDomer]

Paper on 18 studies: https://journals.lww.com/americanthe...ing_the.4.aspx

Conclusions:

• Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance.
• Results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin.
• Ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.
• It has been proved safe and been used over 4 billion times since 1975.

This is widely available, essentially free, and calling it "the crime of the century" that this is being suppressed is being too kind. Doctors are being ripped off of social media and discredited for being right early and often - and that should scare the hell out of anyone who's still thinking.

The issue with meta analyses is they're as good as the studies they analyze. A good RCT beats a meta analysis from a bunch of crappy studies. Additionally the 1st and last author's have poor reputations research wise preceding the pandemic. Read up on the EVMU vitamin C sepsis study. It worked really well until anyone else tried to replicate what they did. Then it didn't work.

 

[phork]

This is widely available, essentially free, and calling it "the crime of the century" that this is being suppressed is being too kind. Doctors are being ripped off of social media and discredited for being right early and often - and that should scare the hell out of anyone who's still thinking.

And there it is. Because anyone who presents more substantial evidence to the contrary is just not thinking.

 

[Irish#1]

Paper on 18 studies: https://journals.lww.com/americanthe...ing_the.4.aspx

Conclusions:

• Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance.
• Results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin.
• Ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.
• It has been proved safe and been used over 4 billion times since 1975.

This is widely available, essentially free, and calling it "the crime of the century" that this is being suppressed is being too kind. Doctors are being ripped off of social media and discredited for being right early and often - and that should scare the hell out of anyone who's still thinking.

The Energizer Bunny has nothing on you.

 

[IrishRazor82]

The Energizer Bunny has nothing on you.

There are 121 pages in this thread and there are now papers supporting a drug that's essentially free that not only significantly prevents COVID but also treats it, and it's been proven safe. And it's being silenced all over the US.

121 pages is a lot of energy. Paying attention to the drug based evidence is easy.

It's almost like people didn't want a cure unless it was an experimental vaccine.

 

[TorontoGold]

There are 121 pages in this thread and there are now papers supporting a drug that's essentially free that not only significantly prevents COVID but also treats it, and it's been proven safe. And it's being silenced all over the US.

121 pages is a lot of energy. Paying attention to the drug based evidence is easy.

It's almost like people didn't want a cure unless it was an experimental vaccine.

I see you want something that significantly prevents COVID, treats it, and has been proven safe? Well well well, 2.5B people have received a COVID vaccine. COVID has significantly been reduced in countries with a large vaccinated population. In your opinion, what lead to the decrease in all important stats in the US? I'll hazard a guess, probably those little shots you only have to get twice and sometimes once.

Or self medicating with an anti-parasitic from source-dude-trust-me and allowing variants so continue to circulate is another option.

 

[IrishRazor82]

I see you want something that significantly prevents COVID, treats it, and has been proven safe? Well well well, 2.5B people have received a COVID vaccine. COVID has significantly been reduced in countries with a large vaccinated population. In your opinion, what lead to the decrease in all important stats in the US? I'll hazard a guess, probably those little shots you only have to get twice and sometimes once.

Or self medicating with an anti-parasitic from source-dude-trust-me and allowing variants so continue to circulate is another option.

1) Seasonality vitamin D also kills COVID -- same as FLU, FLU doesn't care about seasons believe it or not, it's just vitamin D deficiency/sufficiency).

2) Changes in reporting. CDC is not hiding, they now only count "unvaccinated cases" unless there's a hospitalization or death.

And the vaccine isn't proven safe. That's not even a debate. We do not know the long term or frankly short term risks associated with them and we won't for a while. That doesn't mean I assume they're going to destroy the planet, but they are simply not proven safe.

Ivermectin is proving to be not a homerun but a grand slam on all accounts. But people don't like to learn that and that's freaky.

 

[TorontoGold]

1) Seasonality vitamin D also kills COVID -- same as FLU, FLU doesn't care about seasons believe it or not, it's just vitamin D deficiency/sufficiency).

2) Changes in reporting. CDC is not hiding, they now only count "unvaccinated cases" unless there's a hospitalization or death.

And the vaccine isn't proven safe. That's not even a debate. We do not know the long term or frankly short term risks associated with them and we won't for a while. That doesn't mean I assume they're going to destroy the planet, but they are simply not proven safe.

Ivermectin is proving to be not a homerun but a grand slam on all accounts. But people don't like to learn that and that's freaky.

1) Under this assumption, would it not make sense for the southern American countries to have no COVID issue? Compare their climate to the frozen tundra of Ontario.

2) That is just patently false. There are ton's of reports showing "breakthrough" cases, you'll notice this with a lot of the UK reporting. The Yankees had some breakthrough cases, did they not get the memo from the CDC to hide case data?

3) You're correct it's not a debate, but not for the reasons you think. These vaccines weren't whipped up based on a whim, this is years and years of research that go into this. Oh, and the world's smartest people have universally supported them. This isn't a US vs Russia vs China issue. All the governments of the world believe in the effectiveness of vaccines.

We can get into the Big Pharma stuff on other issues (insulin etc) but do you not think that it's in a governments best interest to not have their citizens dying in the streets? If this was truly better than vaccines would there be a pivot towards this?

At the end of the day, a sprinkle of logic will show that it isn't some grand conspiracy that vaccines are the best way forward. If it was a grand conspiracy, would it not be better for the Government and Big Pharma to align themselves with Invermectin so that people can have reoccurring purchases to these Pharma companies? If I'm running a corrupt pharma co the first thing I want to do is get people hooked on reoccurring purchases of my "drug", last thing I want to do is have a heavily subsidized two use drug.

 

[ab2cmiller]

#2. is definitely true (at least what I think Razor is trying to say). CDC has stated they will not count COVID cases for vaccinated individuals unless they result in hospitalization or death. He references "unvaccinated cases" but I think that was an error. Certainly there are "reports of breakthrough cases" in the media, but as far as the CDC goes, they are not counting them. Seems very strange to suddenly change a methodology, but only for vaccinated people.

#3 Razor is correct that we don't know the long term safety of the vaccines. The timeline for testing and approval was extremely compressed compared to a more typical timeline of 5 to 7 years for the different Clinical Development Phases/Testing. They were completed in a short time period that showed they appeared to be safe and effective to the point where they were granted emergency use. There's a reason why the Feds take a long time to approve vaccines, and a major part of it is safety.

To Toronto's point, these vaccines weren't developed on a whim and had numerous years of research. But that doesn't mean that a proclamation can be made that this specific vaccine is safe long term.

I did choose to get the vaccine because I felt that the benefits outweighed any safety concerns that I had. While I believe that there isn't a great chance for major long term safety issues to develop over time, nobody can say that the long term safety issue has been proven.

 

[Irish#1]

1) Seasonality vitamin D also kills COVID -- same as FLU, FLU doesn't care about seasons believe it or not, it's just vitamin D deficiency/sufficiency).

2) Changes in reporting. CDC is not hiding, they now only count "unvaccinated cases" unless there's a hospitalization or death.

And the vaccine isn't proven safe. That's not even a debate. We do not know the long term or frankly short term risks associated with them and we won't for a while. That doesn't mean I assume they're going to destroy the planet, but they are simply not proven safe.

Ivermectin is proving to be not a homerun but a grand slam on all accounts. But people don't like to learn that and that's freaky.

So it's just coincidence that flu cases take a large jump in the fall/early winter? Most everyone's vitamin D levels just happen to drop in the fall/early winter? What about those of us that take multivitamins and vitamin D supplements regularly yet still contract the flu?

A quick Google found these long term effects of Ivermectin.

What are the long term side effects of ivermectin?
Symptoms of neurotoxicity include lethargy, drooling, tremors/seizures, inability to stand, disorientation, and coma. Serious neurological events in humans, such as encephalopathy, confusion, stupor, or coma, after ivermectin were initially observed in campaigns to treat O. volvulus in African countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5929173/

 

[PerthDomer]

So it's just coincidence that flu cases take a large jump in the fall/early winter? Most everyone's vitamin D levels just happen to drop in the fall/early winter? What about those of us that take multivitamins and vitamin D supplements regularly yet still contract the flu?

A quick Google found these long term effects of Ivermectin.

What are the long term side effects of ivermectin?
Symptoms of neurotoxicity include lethargy, drooling, tremors/seizures, inability to stand, disorientation, and coma. Serious neurological events in humans, such as encephalopathy, confusion, stupor, or coma, after ivermectin were initially observed in campaigns to treat O. volvulus in African countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5929173/

Respiratory viral season takes off in the winter/fall because people go inside and congregate in poorly ventilated spaces. It's not that complicated. There's variation every year as to when the flu surge happens (nov through march usually). There's some randomness and variation but sun/cloud variation driving vitamin d differences doesn't drive it

 

[notredomer23]

#3 Razor is correct that we don't know the long term safety of the vaccines. The timeline for testing and approval was extremely compressed compared to a more typical timeline of 5 to 7 years for the different Clinical Development Phases/Testing. They were completed in a short time period that showed they appeared to be safe and effective to the point where they were granted emergency use. There's a reason why the Feds take a long time to approve vaccines, and a major part of it is safety.

I don't think this is accurate. Vaccines take forever because of the interconnection between urgency and money. Typically, there isn't much urgency to get a vaccine developed therefore the money isn't there hence the long timeline. Additionally, the COVID vaccines were easy to prove efficacy being in a pandemic-- it typically takes much longer to prove that efficacy with other viruses that aren't ravaging the globe. Lastly, it's the vaccine itself that causes side effects, not the immune response it triggers. The vaccine leaves your body relatively quickly, which is why any adverse reaction that may have long term effects (GBS for example) will appear within the first 30-45 days. Vaccines do not have long term side effects that appear later on in life. Full stop.

 

[Irish#1]

Respiratory viral season takes off in the winter/fall because people go inside and congregate in poorly ventilated spaces. It's not that complicated. There's variation every year as to when the flu surge happens (nov through march usually). There's some randomness and variation but sun/cloud variation driving vitamin d differences doesn't drive it

There's no questioning that. I can remember when I was a kid back in the 50's and 60's mothers would use the herd mentality to get all their kids exposed at the same time so they didn't have to deal with it over a prolonged period of time. My point was more that it wasn't due to peoples vitamin D deficiency.