'20 MO WR Jordan Johnson (Notre Dame Signee)

[NDohio]

Yeah, I'm thinking maybe he just wasn't that good at football to begin with and a bunch of people working for paysites got it wrong. It's a great excuse to bitch about the coaching staff for a lot of people, but in the end nobody should really lose a bit of sleep over it.

I am thinking this way too. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up. If he goes to a middle of the pack big ten school then what was all the angst about him not playing about? Someone that is at that level shouldn't be playing as a frosh at ND.

 

[Rogue219]

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2020/jordan-johnson-209763

Look how his "rating" jumped and when. Is it safe to me to assume that he climbed up the rankings because he ran around at some camp in his underpants and did a bunch of things that got people like Mike Farrell excited so they called him a five star player?

Seen that movie before.

He's probably going to go to Missouri or Mississippi and then end up transferring again. I'd bet money on it.

 

[Trait Expectations]

For me, it's not about having these highly rated playmakers "make a splash" right away. It's about keeping them engaged and motivated (and not leaving the program). Kids have options these days. Taking a hard line with them isn't always the best course of action. Maybe if he got some playing time, in a season where we dominated a good portion of the schedule, it would have kept him motivated both on and off the field. Might be easier to get motivated in the classroom if you're finding some success on the field.

It's easy to coach the kids that come in super motivated and do well in the classroom. The only possible way for ND to get to the next step is finding ways to recruit and develop elite talent. Sometimes that takes a different approach than taking a hard line.

Obviously, I don't really know what went on with JJ but ND obviously did a poor job because the kid is already leaving. Either they did a poor job in the recruitment process of identifying his fit or did a poor job helping him adjust and keeping him "bought in". Either way it's a loss.

I can sympathize with some of this thinking. We need to do a better job of adding elite talent and then we need to develop them like we do everyone else on the roster. I'd say we've done a good job developing elite Kyle Hamilton, Michael Mayer, Chris Tyree (and on the cusp of developing elite Blake Fisher and Rocco Spindler). Some players simply aren't elite and if they don't merit playing time, what is the coaching staff supposed to do? Have a secret meeting to discuss players who are struggling and had a high ranking but haven't earned more snaps? Then decide which of those should be thrust into action because the staff is afraid of losing them?

That's not the culture you want to foster. Healthy culture is created by an unbroken series of steps and policies behind decision making, then following it consistently to its end.

ND needs to continue adding high quality talent and developing it.

But remember, JJ didn't enroll early. This was his first offseason with the program and he bounced before even making it to summer camp. JJ and ND weren't a great match, so I wish him well and I hope we add many more high quality WR recruits in this class.

 

[irishandy]

JJ had 0 catches, 0 yards, and 0 TD's. He will be easy to replace. I saw the highlight of the pass thrown to him in the end zone, the pass was way off, but the way he ran his route he looked lazy.

Should ND play as many WR's as possible? That depends, if they cannot find consistent starters- yes. If they can find players like Fuller, Boykin, Claypool- no. Last year our upperclassman were injured: Lenzy, Keys, and Austin.

I would like to see more production out of our WR's this year and if not they need to get rid of Del.

I agree with Trait Expectations- I don't think ND & JJ were a match.

 

[NDRock]

Yeah, I'm thinking maybe he just wasn't that good at football to begin with and a bunch of people working for paysites got it wrong. It's a great excuse to bitch about the coaching staff for a lot of people, but in the end nobody should really lose a bit of sleep over it. I'm a players first fan but there comes a point where some responsbility on and off the field falls on the player.

That may be true and if so then that's a failure on the staff for recruiting him. When you literally get zero production out of the highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era, it's a failure.

 

[Rogue219]

If they fire Del, you'd better find someone who can recruit their ass off under the academic and cultural parameters that is Notre Dame Football. I don't know who that guy is at the moment. Some of these WR coaches are getting well over half a million a year at some of the other Power Five schools. Maybe a guy like Kevin Cummings at San Jose State would take a jump to ND. I have no idea. It's probably going to have to be someone who is on the up and up, but does that guy aspire to be an OC someday?

Again, quick to blame the coaches when in reality some of the ownership has to go on the players. It's possible these coaches did all they could for these guys on and off the field to help them, engage them, motivate them. If it doesn't take, it doesn't take. It isn't a fit and you move on.

 

[Rogue219]

That may be true and if so then that's a failure on the staff for recruiting him. When you literally get zero production out of the highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era, it's a failure.

Is it within the realm of possibility that during the recruiting process, things changed and went in a different direction at no fault of the coaches that caused the player to not make it? These are teenaged boys, they're not GE appliances that come with warranties or can be fixed if they don't work right out of the box.

Courtships are great. Then you get into the relationship and shit changes. Fast. Not for the better. You find out the person isn't what you really thought. The person thinks, "you know, this isn't for me and no matter what I try I can't get it done here." Entirely possible that's what happens. It sucks. Life isn't perfect.

Again, I wouldn't get stuck on the rating. It really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. You're putting a great deal of value on that, which is fine and I think most of us do, but in this instance was this guy ever really a five star player? I'm thinking not. "Highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era." Sounds like a huge deal. He never saw the field. Take a look at some of the freshman that have gotten to play since Kelly has been here. It's entirely possible you can get on the field in your first year. If you're good, they get you in. That's football.

 

[StPaul_Irish]

If they fire Del, you'd better find someone who can recruit their ass off under the academic and cultural parameters that is Notre Dame Football. I don't know who that guy is at the moment. Some of these WR coaches are getting well over half a million a year at some of the other Power Five schools. Maybe a guy like Kevin Cummings at San Jose State would take a jump to ND. I have no idea. It's probably going to have to be someone who is on the up and up, but does that guy aspire to be an OC someday?

Again, quick to blame the coaches when in reality some of the ownership has to go on the players. It's possible these coaches did all they could for these guys on and off the field to help them, engage them, motivate them. If it doesn't take, it doesn't take. It isn't a fit and you move on.

NO, because 5-7 WR's and a handful of the over 1200 players didn't make it. Therefore 5% or 60 or so players who didn't materialize, that is coaching. You can forget about the 95% of players who went on to have decent careers, and forget about the guys who made it to the NFL, its ALWAYS coaching and specifically BK's fault when a 17 year old doesn't become and All American as a True Freshman.

 

[NDRock]

Is it within the realm of possibility that during the recruiting process, things changed and went in a different direction at no fault of the coaches that caused the player to not make it? These are teenaged boys, they're not GE appliances that come with warranties or can be fixed if they don't work right out of the box.

Courtships are great. Then you get into the relationship and shit changes. Fast. Not for the better. You find out the person isn't what you really thought. The person thinks, "you know, this isn't for me and no matter what I try I can't get it done here." Entirely possible that's what happens. It sucks. Life isn't perfect.

Again, I wouldn't get stuck on the rating. It really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. You're putting a great deal of value on that, which is fine and I think most of us do, but in this instance was this guy ever really a five star player? I'm thinking not. "Highest rated WR of the entire Kelly era." Sounds like a huge deal. He never saw the field. Take a look at some of the freshman that have gotten to play since Kelly has been here. It's entirely possible you can get on the field in your first year. If you're good, they get you in. That's football.

Sure. I'm really not sweating this one way or the other. I'd be surprised if the kid goes somewhere and kills it. Usually doesn't happen, though with the new transfer rules you'll probably see it how happen much more. Kelly gets judged by his record. He has won much more than he's lost and will probably go down as the best coach in ND history to not win a NC.

I don't think it's that controversial to say we failed in this recruitment. They're not all going to be home runs but zero production from a highly talented kid isn't great. It will probably used against us in the next recruiting battle. Obviously not the end of the world.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Yup... it feels like receiver would be the one position where it would be easier to work in the underclassmen. I don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to football but I'd have to imagine you can put together packages of more vertical routes for highly rated kids that can't grasp the entire playbook.

True. Golden Tate 2007 is the prime example. True freshman, didn't know left from right, but ran go routes fast as hell and got good experience.

 

[Trait Expectations]

True. Golden Tate 2007 is the prime example. True freshman, didn't know left from right, but ran go routes fast as hell and got good experience.

The problem is that JJ wasn't a burner. So what special route could he have run that our other WRs couldn't? Chris Brown busted out some vertical routes, so did Fuller and Stepherson to a lesser degree.

 

[Rogue219]

Sure. I'm really not sweating this one way or the other. I'd be surprised if the kid goes somewhere and kills it. Usually doesn't happen, though with the new transfer rules you'll probably see it how happen much more. Kelly gets judged by his record. He has won much more than he's lost and will probably go down as the best coach in ND history to not win a NC.

I don't think it's that controversial to say we failed in this recruitment. They're not all going to be home runs but zero production from a highly talented kid isn't great. It will probably used against us in the next recruiting battle. Obviously not the end of the world.

Or maybe multiple people failed simultaneously at once? Rivals rated this guy ahead of Mayer and Tyree. They're both seeing time on the field. That's a failure on them. Kevin Stepherson came to ND as a three star recruit and he got on the field as a freshman. Rivals had this guy rated the 28th best player in America and he never caught a pass. Maybe he never should have been rated that high?

Johnson got targeted twice in the Blue and Gold Game I believe, and the second time he went to block when the play was a screen pass to him. If he doesn't know the plays and can't handle the classwork, he's accountable for that. If he doesn't know the plays, I don't know that you can blame many other people for that, though I'm sure it's on Kelly, Rees and Alexander somehow some way in order to fit the narrative of the segment of the fan base that wants to blame them. I think Jordan had to have known what he was getting into here, and that's on him.

In the end, if he was truly not a good fit, some of that falls on the coaching staff. Of course. I did not see any offers from Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt. Notre Dame isn't for everyone and these coaches need to recognize that when they get starry eyed over the football part.

 

[Rogue219]

True. Golden Tate 2007 is the prime example. True freshman, didn't know left from right, but ran go routes fast as hell and got good experience.

For a 3-9 team not coached by Kelly that was the victim of the previous staff's utter recruiting neglect and failure. Tate got out there out of necessity more than anything else. Stovall, Samardzija and McKnight were all gone.

There are plenty of guys who can't do the job even when you draw something up in the dirt. Again, if you're the 28th best player in America and truly that, they're going to find a way to get you on the field if you can cut it.

I think he didn't cut it and quite a bit of that is his fault.

 

[Irish#1]

I can sympathize with some of this thinking. We need to do a better job of adding elite talent and then we need to develop them like we do everyone else on the roster. I'd say we've done a good job developing elite Kyle Hamilton, Michael Mayer, Chris Tyree (and on the cusp of developing elite Blake Fisher and Rocco Spindler). Some players simply aren't elite and if they don't merit playing time, what is the coaching staff supposed to do? Have a secret meeting to discuss players who are struggling and had a high ranking but haven't earned more snaps? Then decide which of those should be thrust into action because the staff is afraid of losing them?

That's not the culture you want to foster. Healthy culture is created by an unbroken series of steps and policies behind decision making, then following it consistently to its end.

ND needs to continue adding high quality talent and developing it.

But remember, JJ didn't enroll early. This was his first offseason with the program and he bounced before even making it to summer camp. JJ and ND weren't a great match, so I wish him well and I hope we add many more high quality WR recruits in this class.

This is pretty spot on. If a kid can play as a freshman, he'll see the field. Coaches livelihood depends on them winning. Even if a kid is a 5 star, there is a big difference between an 18 and 21 year old in both mental and physical makeup.

 

[Dale]

Referencing someone’s spring game performance that transferred 24 hours later feels like not the best barometer of his talent

 

[Dale]

JJ’s rating ascension came mainly from camp performance correct? Only reason I ask is because if you look at OSU in terms of recruiting St Louis area WRs last couple years there hit rate has been abysmal. Williams looks to be good but has transferred, Brown switched to D and is depth, Babb is a bust (injury I think) and Cooper transferred. Odd trend in a be it very small sample size.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

This seems like a carbon copy of the Derrick Allen situation a few years back.

 

[T-Boone]

Surely a freshman can play and catch 5-10 passes throught the season with an incomplete knowledge of the playbook.

 

[T-Boone]

This seems like a carbon copy of the Derrick Allen situation a few years back.

Not really. JJ just plays a position that BK very rarely plays young players.
When he has played them we need to go back and look at how on earth that unfolded (is it always injuries forced him to play them?).

 

[Rogue219]

Surely a freshman can play and catch 5-10 passes throught the season with an incomplete knowledge of the playbook.

They ran a screen pass for him in a spring scrimmage on Saturday and he fucked it up.

 

[greyhammer90]

Not really. JJ just plays a position that BK very rarely plays young players.
When he has played them we need to go back and look at how on earth that unfolded (is it always injuries forced him to play them?).

This is some revisionist history. There's lots of examples of freshmen WRs who have gotten PT or looks under BK. It's not usually a ton of PT, and it's usually situational, but that's pretty normal especially considering the fact that we're not routinely pulling in 5 star WRs, that's really not surprising that 4 stars who have been in the program are beating out 4 stars that haven't.

People used to say the same thing about running back, our recruiting got better, and suddenly no one seems to think BK hates every freshman RB.

The real issue is that our recruiting at this position isn't up to par with the rest of the program. The fact that we're still routinely talking about how talented Kevin Stepherson was is a sad commentary on how desperate we are for an electric reciever.

 

[SBirishlawyer]

This is some revisionist history. There's lots of examples of freshmen WRs who have gotten PT or looks under BK. It's not usually a ton of PT, and it's usually situational, but that's pretty normal especially considering the fact that we're not routinely pulling in 5 star WRs, that's really not surprising that 4 stars who have been in the program are beating out 4 stars that haven't.

People used to say the same thing about running back, our recruiting got better, and suddenly no one seems to think BK hates every freshman RB.

The real issue is that our recruiting at this position isn't up to par with the rest of the program. The fact that we're still routinely talking about how talented Kevin Stepherson was is a sad commentary on how desperate we are for an electric reciever.

And the three receiver max cap and a few somewhat recent public statements by receiver recruits that they never spoke with certain coaches has not helped the perception.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The problem is that JJ wasn't a burner. So what special route could he have run that our other WRs couldn't? Chris Brown busted out some vertical routes, so did Fuller and Stepherson to a lesser degree.

It doesn't have to be a vertical route and it's not always about the young player doing something better than someone else.

Is it that hard to imagine a set/formation including a young player that has a few different options to it and let said player focus on that particular set only? For example, if you have 12 personnel with a young WR on the wide side. You could have 3/4 different run plays out of the formation, 3/4 pass plays when he is in the game. As the year moves on, maybe that expands to 5/6 plays each. Either way, you are getting the player involved and shows that you are trying to develop them. I am not sure anyone is saying they need to be out there for 20 snaps a game.

Think about what Chris Brown did in 2012. The kid played in all games that year and made two catches, his first being the huge post play against OU that really started to seal it for the Irish. That play worked because OU had seen random WR with 13 personnel and ND always ran it. Except the one time they didn't. It was glorious. But it worked because of everything they had shown that year up to that point. So you can both strategically game plan and develop the young guys at the same time. BK has done that before. But he hasn't done it nearly as much the last few years and with the transfers, busts and whatever else you want to throw out, ND has a really big hole at WR this year. It was preventable.

 

[Trait Expectations]

It doesn't have to be a vertical route and it's not always about the young player doing something better than someone else.

Is it that hard to imagine a set/formation including a young player that has a few different options to it and let said player focus on that particular set only? For example, if you have 12 personnel with a young WR on the wide side. You could have 3/4 different run plays out of the formation, 3/4 pass plays when he is in the game. As the year moves on, maybe that expands to 5/6 plays each. Either way, you are getting the player involved and shows that you are trying to develop them. I am not sure anyone is saying they need to be out there for 20 snaps a game.

Think about what Chris Brown did in 2012. The kid played in all games that year and made two catches, his first being the huge post play against OU that really started to seal it for the Irish. That play worked because OU had seen random WR with 13 personnel and ND always ran it. Except the one time they didn't. It was glorious. But it worked because of everything they had shown that year up to that point. So you can both strategically game plan and develop the young guys at the same time. BK has done that before. But he hasn't done it nearly as much the last few years and with the transfers, busts and whatever else you want to throw out, ND has a really big hole at WR this year. It was preventable.

Imagining something and determining if something is the best for the program are two different things entirely. You bring up Chris Brown (which Kelly and his staff did) and then dismiss it in the same paragraph. The staff plays the players who can help.

How was it preventable? Kelly and staff don't believe you should push a kid out on the field if they aren't ready. IF they are really talented, usually they'll get some snaps to prove it on the field. We haven't recruited well enough to have young guys steal reps right away @WR. Even Kyren, who was incredible for us, took a full year in the program.

And why did 'Kelly' play Michael Mayer over the other established options in the program? What about Tyree? We had like 5 RBs going into fall camp but Tyree was #2 last year.

 

[DONALDIII]

I do believe this entire thing is being overdone. I think JJ wanted playing time. I think BK did his normal "traits" thing. I do also believe JJ was not as great as advertised by the recruiting services but could become a 1st round pick later in his career, thus, leaving him to battle several people faster, bigger, as athletic, and more experienced than him. He just simply was not in the right program at the right time. I can see him at a Mizzou or at a K-State tearing it up.

I'd also like to address Driskell's dum dum azz. He is so bitter about BK it makes me sick to listen to him anymore. And he never gives Vince an opportunity to talk. He had a lot to say about this and as if he really has an inside source on how the entire operation works in side ND Football. It was almost laughable. That is all...

 

[Ndaccountant]

Imagining something and determining if something is the best for the program are two different things entirely. You bring up Chris Brown (which Kelly and his staff did) and then dismiss it in the same paragraph. The staff plays the players who can help.

How was it preventable? Kelly and staff don't believe you should push a kid out on the field if they aren't ready. IF they are really talented, usually they'll get some snaps to prove it on the field. We haven't recruited well enough to have young guys steal reps right away @WR. Even Kyren, who was incredible for us, took a full year in the program.

And why did 'Kelly' play Michael Mayer over the other established options in the program? What about Tyree? We had like 5 RBs going into fall camp but Tyree was #2 last year.

So you think last year there was no earthly way that getting Watts, Johnson or Brunelle involved even in the slightest (Watts and Johnson "appeared" in 2 games each, none for JB) would make the program better? Hell, Jafar Armstrong got time at WR at various points throughout the year. How was that in the best interest of the program?

The Chris Brown example is what should be happening each year. Nobody is saying that freshman WR's need to get thrown 3-5 balls a game. But getting them worked into the game throughout the year pays dividends both in the current year and in the long run. I honestly don't see what is controversial about that, especially at a position with the lack of established depth ND has at WR.

 

[Dale]

I think if you look around the country, with some exception, this really isn’t too hard of a nut to crack. The OU, OSUs of the world have 3 stars that never do anything. They have 5 stars that are busts. But the VOLUME of 5 star type WRs is higher and therefore 2 guys emerging per year isn’t really that difficult. Austin, Colzie, Styles and JJ are ones that approach that territory. The 2019 class is truly the killer. ‘18 I will give one final pass to Austin could have had some damn bad luck and hopefully we see that talent this fall. 2020 you missed on JJ, alright move on. 2021 we believe in Colzie and Styles. It’s that it was 1 in 18 and 1 in 20 and 0 in 2019 class that left virtually ZERO margin for error in Kevin Austin. 2 per class needs to be the expectation. You will 100% have busts but you need basically 1 per class to pan out to field a Playoff WR core

 

[Ndaccountant]

I think if you look around the country, with some exception, this really isn’t too hard of a nut to crack. The OU, OSUs of the world have 3 stars that never do anything. They have 5 stars that are busts. But the VOLUME of 5 star type WRs is higher and therefore 2 guys emerging per year isn’t really that difficult. Austin, Colzie, Styles and JJ are ones that approach that territory. The 2019 class is truly the killer. ‘18 I will give one final pass to Austin could have had some damn bad luck and hopefully we see that talent this fall. 2020 you missed on JJ, alright move on. 2021 we believe in Colzie and Styles. It’s that it was 1 in 18 and 1 in 20 and 0 in 2019 class that left virtually ZERO margin for error in Kevin Austin. 2 per class needs to be the expectation. You will 100% have busts but you need basically 1 per class to pan out to field a Playoff WR core

Agree with this. But at OSU last year for example, they still found a way to work in their young guys over the last few games of the year. Yes, those guys top 100 level players. But Olave and Wilson are probably, at worst, 1-3rd round draft picks. So they are not taking time away from slouches.

Sure, anyone or all 3 of the young guys could bust. But that doesn't stop them from pushing them slowly into the games. They want to see them in action.

 

[Dale]

Agree with this. But at OSU last year for example, they still found a way to work in their young guys over the last few games of the year. Yes, those guys top 100 level players. But Olave and Wilson are probably, at worst, 1-3rd round draft picks. So they are not taking time away from slouches.

Sure, anyone or all 3 of the young guys could bust. But that doesn't stop them from pushing them slowly into the games. They want to see them in action.

The two underclassmen that saw catches were Williams and Smith-Njiba and one is transferring because he thinks he was underused.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The two underclassmen that saw catches were Williams and Smith-Njiba and one is transferring because he thinks he was underused.

And Fleming.

He is transferring to Alabama too. But this is a whole different animal. He could legit start at Bama versus being WR4 at OSU next year.