2016 Presidential Horse Race

[NDinL.A.]

The Irish and the Chinese who were encouraged to emigrate to America to work on the railroads found themselves discriminated against at every turn. They overcame the effects of institutional racism. Why were they able to do it and blacks weren't?

Please tell me you're kidding. C'mon moose, you're smarter than this. I mean, do you really need an answer to your question?

 

[phgreek]

Wait you are comparing what they went through to slavery and Jim Crow? GTFO.


Also the Chinese faced significantly more racism then the Irish when working on the railroad. The Chinese had to do more dangerous work for less money and less "perks".

In short, basically there are different levels of racism. Not all racism is the same.

ETA: Not saying that any racism is ok, because racism is never ok.

How Irish Immigrants Overcame Discrimination in America

not slavery...but not markedly different than the Chinese experience, and certainly their place in society was codified in some cases, and many more attempts were made. I heard stories of ancestors blown up in rail tunnels right with the Chinese...shrug.

 

[pkt77242]

How Irish Immigrants Overcame Discrimination in America

not slavery...but not markedly different than the Chinese experience, and certainly their place in society was codified in some cases, and many more attempts were made. I heard stories of ancestors blown up in rail tunnels right with the Chinese...shrug.

Huh. Not from what I know. The Chinese got hosed (not to say that the Irish didn't face discrimination but the Chinese had it even worse)

What were the Chinese workers paid in comparison to workers of European descent?

Chinese workers were initially paid $24 to $31 per month, although rates would vary depending on how skilled or dangerous the work. For example, those who worked in the tunnels were paid an extra $1 per month. Their pay eventually rose to $35 per day, which was roughly the same as for workers of European descent. However, Chinese workers worked longer hours and had to pay their headmen or contractors for their own lodging and food and even for their tools; on the other hand, the Central Pacific and Union Pacific provided white workers accommodations, food, and tools without additional cost. Alexander Saxton, in “The Army of Canton in the High Sierra,” calculates that Chinese labor cost the railroad companies two thirds of what was paid to white workers.

FAQs : Chinese Railroad Workers in North America Project

 

[IrishLax]

Huh. Not from what I know. The Chinese got hosed (not to say that the Irish didn't face discrimination but the Chinese had it even worse)



FAQs : Chinese Railroad Workers in North America Project

Irish slaves outnumbered African ones in the colonies for hundreds of years sooo...... yeah, I think every single round of Irish immigrants (including the ones literally enslaved by the English and shipped to the colonies) faced some serious shit and I think it's hard to say the Chinese definitely "had it worse" depending on which Irish we're talking about and when. Focusing specifically on railroad discrimination is probably a little narrow.

Related, I'd recommend anyone with time read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became...415963095/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me= It's insightful, and explains an awful lot about how the totem poll has always worked. No one wants to be at the bottom. Also generally applicable to why you see poor, rural whites so avidly supporting a dude like Trump these days.

And your moment of zen:

Racial superiority goes back to tribalism and is as old as time. It's always been fucked up, and in this country if you were to blame anyone it should be the colonial English.

 

[pkt77242]

Irish slaves outnumbered African ones in the colonies for hundreds of years sooo...... yeah, I think every single round of Irish immigrants (including the ones literally enslaved by the English and shipped to the colonies) faced some serious shit and I think it's hard to say the Chinese definitely "had it worse" depending on which Irish we're talking about and when.

I was talking about the ones working on the railroad. Now if we want to go further back that is different.

ETA: I thought that most of the Irish were indentured servants not slaves? Not to say that they didn't face a shitty situation, but that it was different from slavery (their children were usually free and they usually had an end point).

 

[kmoose]

Please tell me you're kidding. C'mon moose, you're smarter than this. I mean, do you really need an answer to your question?

No. I'm not kidding. The contention was made that the systemic racism of the 40s-50s-60s has made it so that blacks(as a group) simply cannot get out of poverty today. There was systemic racism against the Irish and the Chinese at one time as well. So how were those two groups able to get out from underneath the crushing effects, but blacks aren't? If you want to tell me that the level of racism against blacks was so overwhelming that they could not do the same thing(s) as the Irish and the Chinese, then I might buy that. But you'd have to explain to me what the Irish and Chinese did, and why the blacks are unable to do the same thing. Otherwise, all of this crap about institutional racism being the cause of the plight of blacks today is nothing more than excuses for people's (misplaced) outrage.

 

[NDinL.A.]

No. I'm not kidding. The contention was made that the systemic racism of the 40s-50s-60s has made it so that blacks(as a group) simply cannot get out of poverty today. There was systemic racism against the Irish and the Chinese at one time as well. So how were those two groups able to get out from underneath the crushing effects, but blacks aren't? If you want to tell me that the level of racism against blacks was so overwhelming that they could not do the same thing(s) as the Irish and the Chinese, then I might buy that. But you'd have to explain to me what the Irish and Chinese did, and why the blacks are unable to do the same thing. Otherwise, all of this crap about institutional racism being the cause of the plight of blacks today is nothing more than excuses for people's (misplaced) outrage.

Yes, the racism blacks have faced throughout American history was overwhelmingly worse than the other groups you are talking about. Slavery, lynchings, being specified as not fully human (in comparison) in the our own Constitution, etc etc etc...I thought this easily went without saying.

 

[pkt77242]

No. I'm not kidding. The contention was made that the systemic racism of the 40s-50s-60s has made it so that blacks(as a group) simply cannot get out of poverty today. There was systemic racism against the Irish and the Chinese at one time as well. So how were those two groups able to get out from underneath the crushing effects, but blacks aren't? If you want to tell me that the level of racism against blacks was so overwhelming that they could not do the same thing(s) as the Irish and the Chinese, then I might buy that. But you'd have to explain to me what the Irish and Chinese did, and why the blacks are unable to do the same thing. Otherwise, all of this crap about institutional racism being the cause of the plight of blacks today is nothing more than excuses for people's (misplaced) outrage.

First off, it wasn't just the 40s-50s-60s, it is a few hundred years of it. Also most of the racism against the Irish was significantly longer ago (the 19th century) and it was no where near the same degree. It seems weird to me that you are comparing racism against the Irish to what black people have gone through. That seems a bit extreme.

 

[kmoose]

Yes, the racism blacks have faced throughout American history was overwhelmingly worse than the other groups you are talking about. Slavery, lynchings, being specified as not fully human (in comparison) in the our own Constitution, etc etc etc...I thought this easily went without saying.

Some Irish and Chinese were bought and sold as slaves.......... they may not have been lynched, but they were outright killed because they were Irish or Chinese.

I'm not sure what you mean by "being specified as not fully human in our own Constitution"?

 

[pkt77242]

Some Irish and Chinese were bought and sold as slaves.......... they may not have been lynched, but they were outright killed because they were Irish or Chinese.

I'm not sure what you mean by "being specified as not fully human in our own Constitution"?

I would guess he means that they counted as 2/3 of a person.

Are you Irish? Because that would explain a lot.

Also most Irish were indentured servants, not slaves. Indentured servants had more rights than slaves and didn't last (as in a slaves child was a slave, but an indentured servants child was generally free).

 

[kmoose]

I would guess he means that they counted as 2/3 of a person.

Are you Irish? Because that would explain a lot.

Actually, it was that they counted as 3/5ths of a whole person in determining representation in the government. That's not the same as counting as 3/5ths of a person. But it's jacked up, either way.

Are you profiling me based on my ethnicity? You fucking racist!!

(I'm 25% Irish, 25% German, and 50% a whole host of other things, including English)

 

[pkt77242]

Actually, it was that they counted as 3/5ths of a full vote. That's not the same as counting as 3/5ths of a person. But it's jacked up, either way.

Are you profiling me based on my ethnicity? You fucking racist!!

(I'm 25% Irish, 25% German, and 50% a whole host of other things, including English)

Yes I am profiling you based off ethnicity. I am about 1/8 Irish (mostly German and English, with some Norse thrown in as well (Denmark, Norway, etc.).

The black slaves had it significantly worse than the Irish (who as I edited to add in my last post were mostly indentured servants which is very different).

Also my 2/3 instead of 3/5 is a good reason why I shouldn't post after drinking 4 beers.

 

[kmoose]

(who as I edited to add in my last post were mostly indentured servants which is very different).

There's "very different" on paper, and then there is "very different" in reality. At least one of the articles that I read on it, mentioned that most of the "indentured servants" didn't live long enough to fulfill their indenture. And even when they did, very few judges were sympathetic to those whose owners simply ignored the end time of the indenture and kept the servants enslaved.

But the point isn't who had it worse............ the point is that the Irish and Chinese both had major obstacles in their way, as an ethnic group, and yet they somehow managed to overcome those obstacles. Yet, people want to blame "institutional racism" for the Blacks not managing to do the same.

 

[pkt77242]

There's "very different" on paper, and then there is "very different" in reality. At least one of the articles that I read on it, mentioned that most of the "indentured servants" didn't live long enough to fulfill their indenture. And even when they did, very few judges were sympathetic to those whose owners simply ignored the end time of the indenture and kept the servants enslaved.

But the point isn't who had it worse............ the point is that the Irish and Chinese both had major obstacles in their way, as an ethnic group, and yet they somehow managed to overcome those obstacles. Yet, people want to blame "institutional racism" for the Blacks not managing to do the same.

Again that ended in the 19th century. Institutional racism against black people lasted much longer (at least till the 60's and some would argue that it is still going on). That is a significant difference.

 

[kmoose]

Institutional racism against black people lasted much longer (at least till the 60's and some would argue that it is still going on).

How so?

 

[Irish YJ]

Yes I am profiling you based off ethnicity. I am about 1/8 Irish (mostly German and English, with some Norse thrown in as well (Denmark, Norway, etc.).

The black slaves had it significantly worse than the Irish (who as I edited to add in my last post were mostly indentured servants which is very different).

Also my 2/3 instead of 3/5 is a good reason why I shouldn't post after drinking 4 beers.

drink 6. and some of that great scotch

 

[kmoose]

It seems weird to me that you are comparing racism against the Irish to what black people have gone through. That seems a bit extreme.

I'm not comparing those two things. I asked someone to explain why the Irish were able to overcome discrimination and racism, and blacks have not been able to. And I also mentioned the Chinese, but no one seems to have taken particular umbrage with that. So tell me, why have people of Chinese descent not also been trapped by institutional racism?

 

[IrishLax]

I was talking about the ones working on the railroad. Now if we want to go further back that is different.

ETA: I thought that most of the Irish were indentured servants not slaves? Not to say that they didn't face a shitty situation, but that it was different from slavery (their children were usually free and they usually had an end point).

Many were indentured servants, others were slaves. The total population of Irish slaves outnumbered blacks for a very long time, before colonists came to regard the Irish as "inferior" from a labor/breeding standpoint. Their value dropped... and as a "Negro" slaves increased in value the trade switched more and more to African slaves, and then there came a point where the slave population was entirely black. It's all quite fascinating, and I'm truncating it greatly, but the colonial period of the United States was some pretty fucked up stuff.

 

[NorthDakota]

I'm not comparing those two things. I asked someone to explain why the Irish were able to overcome discrimination and racism, and blacks have not been able to. And I also mentioned the Chinese, but no one seems to have taken particular umbrage with that. So tell me, why have people of Chinese descent not also been trapped by institutional racism?

Without ANY data to back it up... I'd think the reason Asians have overcome racism might be a cultural thing(family values, family units, etc

 

[Irish YJ]

Without ANY data to back it up... I'd think the reason Asians have overcome racism might be a cultural thing(family values, family units, etc

Asians and latinos totally screw up a lot of Ds

 

[IrishLax]

Without ANY data to back it up... I'd think the reason Asians have overcome racism might be a cultural thing(family values, family units, etc

It's basically been well-researched that cultural emphasis on 1) education, discipline, honor, respect, etc. 2) sticking together in the community and investing in said community 3) strong emphasis on a 2-parent familial unit... basically, each generation does a lot to help the next generation and so on. And by pushing their kids into strong academics and careers, it ensures that the ball keeps rolling.

Jewish communities are similar. Very insulated, strong network where everyone knows each other. Lots fiscal responsibility and high earning careers. Hard for people to fail.

Blacks face all kinds of opposite circumstances from so many different angles I'm too tired to type about it right now.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The black slaves had it significantly worse than the Irish

It's a complicated subject and to a great degree it's subjective, but you can certainly make a case for the Irish having had it just as bad or worse in some ways. Several years ago I was having a conversation about history & slavery with a black coworker and he felt that poor Irish immigrants had it worse than black slaves.

His main point was that the poor Irish had little or no value in the eyes of most, and were thus without help or a social/financial safety net, while the black slave represented a rather large investment to his owner and thus was virtually immune to starvation, homelessness, etc. Black slaves had virtually no chance of climbing up the ladder, but were guaranteed a certain standard of living no matter what. On the other hand, the poor Irish immigrant theoretically could climb up the ladder, but in practice rarely could, and if his crops failed, his house burned, or he lost his job, so what? He & his family were left homeless or allowed to starve or die of disease. I'm not sure I completely agree with him, but he does make an interesting point that has some merit.

 

[EddytoNow]

The Irish and the Chinese who were encouraged to emigrate to America to work on the railroads found themselves discriminated against at every turn. They overcame the effects of institutional racism. Why were they able to do it and blacks weren't?

The case of the Irish is a little different. They were discriminated against on the basis of religion more so than race. It's hard to tell the difference between the Scottish, English, and Irish based on physical traits. The discrimination against the Irish goes back centuries and includes the Penal Codes and other laws that specifically singled out Catholics for discrimination and persecution. It took nearly two centuries for Catholics to gain acceptance in the US. As recently as 1962 people questioned whether John F. Kennedy could be both a Catholic and the President of the United States. There were still fears that the Pope was somehow going to run the country if Kennedy was elected.

But walking down the street it would be hard to pick out an Irish-American based on physical appearance. Even those with red-hair and freckles are just as likely to be Scottish or English as they are Irish. The same can't be said for Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. If you are a member of one of these groups, the more white you look the more you are accepted. As long as that attitude exists in even the smallest segment of our society, racism is alive and well.

 

[EddytoNow]

It's basically been well-researched that cultural emphasis on 1) education, discipline, honor, respect, etc. 2) sticking together in the community and investing in said community 3) strong emphasis on a 2-parent familial unit... basically, each generation does a lot to help the next generation and so on. And by pushing their kids into strong academics and careers, it ensures that the ball keeps rolling.

Jewish communities are similar. Very insulated, strong network where everyone knows each other. Lots fiscal responsibility and high earning careers. Hard for people to fail.

Blacks face all kinds of opposite circumstances from so many different angles I'm too tired to type about it right now.

Using your criteria for climbing up the ladder, so to speak, Blacks are still fighting for some of these opportunities. It's been only slightly more than a century that black families were even allowed to stay together. And in many cases, the educational opportunities provided to them in the large cities are inferior to the educational opportunities offered in the pre-dominantly white suburbs. And an education beyond high school is financially out of reach for many black families. Things have improved in my lifetime, but there is still quite a ways to go before racism and discrimination is a thing of the past.

I guess the fact that I was alive in the 1950's makes me skeptical of Trump's motto to "Make America Great Again". America wasn't so great then. Whites were content to live in their segregated communities and isolated themselves from diversity. Whites went to school at School A and Blacks went to school at School B, and holy **** broke loose when the government tried to bus children from one school to another to achieve better racial balance. We practiced nuclear bomb drills about once a month, because tensions were so high between Russia and the U.S.A. that we feared a nuclear attack. And Trump wants me to go back to that?

 

[kmoose]

The case of the Irish is a little different. They were discriminated against on the basis of religion more so than race. It's hard to tell the difference between the Scottish, English, and Irish based on physical traits. The discrimination against the Irish goes back centuries and includes the Penal Codes and other laws that specifically singled out Catholics for discrimination and persecution. It took nearly two centuries for Catholics to gain acceptance in the US. As recently as 1962 people questioned whether John F. Kennedy could be both a Catholic and the President of the United States. There were still fears that the Pope was somehow going to run the country if Kennedy was elected.

But walking down the street it would be hard to pick out an Irish-American based on physical appearance. Even those with red-hair and freckles are just as likely to be Scottish or English as they are Irish. The same can't be said for Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. If you are a member of one of these groups, the more white you look the more you are accepted. As long as that attitude exists in even the smallest segment of our society, racism is alive and well.

I don't take umbrage with any of what you wrote here, but I don't think it addresses my point. The point isn't how other ethnic groups overcame racism...... they haven't, really. The point was that these ethnic groups have advanced their economic status, despite the racism they faced. Someone(s) mentioned the emphasis on family, education, values, reinvestment in the community, etc. I think that's a reasonable and fair answer. So, when blacks stop looting and burning down black owned businesses in their own neighborhoods in response to perceived injustice; when they live a life of values(the high incarceration rate) and pass those values down to their children by word AND deed; when they break the cycle of dropping out of school; when they restore the family unit(fatherless children) as a foundation for building respect and morals in their children,; THEN I might be moved to believe that they need special help from the government and/or society as a whole. But as long as they continue to trash their own neighborhoods and businesses, teach their children to do anything to "get theirs", and allow their sons and daughters to grow up without a stable father figure; their cries of it being the white man's fault will carry little weight.

 

[yankeehater]

It's basically been well-researched that cultural emphasis on 1) education, discipline, honor, respect, etc. 2) sticking together in the community and investing in said community 3) strong emphasis on a 2-parent familial unit... basically, each generation does a lot to help the next generation and so on. And by pushing their kids into strong academics and careers, it ensures that the ball keeps rolling.

Jewish communities are similar. Very insulated, strong network where everyone knows each other. Lots fiscal responsibility and high earning careers. Hard for people to fail.

Blacks face all kinds of opposite circumstances from so many different angles I'm too tired to type about it right now.

Read my post in the Alton Sterling thread. Basically states what you are saying. Heather MacDonald's book War on Cops presents a ton of statistical data that blow the narrative most people are taught out of the water. Another interesting tidbit is that stats show a cop is more likely to be killed by an African American than the other way around.

 

[twig21]

I thought I'd try to bring a little touch of humor to this somewhat divisive topic.
If people have already heard this tidbit I apologize.
What do Hillary and FDR have in common?..............
Hillary will be the first President to sit when she pees since Franklin Delanor.

 

[woolybug25]

I thought I'd try to bring a little touch of humor to this somewhat divisive topic.
If people have already heard this tidbit I apologize.
What do Hillary and FDR have in common?..............
Hillary will be the first President to sit when she pees since Franklin Delanor.

 

[GoIrish41]

I don't take umbrage with any of what you wrote here, but I don't think it addresses my point. The point isn't how other ethnic groups overcame racism...... they haven't, really. The point was that these ethnic groups have advanced their economic status, despite the racism they faced. Someone(s) mentioned the emphasis on family, education, values, reinvestment in the community, etc. I think that's a reasonable and fair answer. So, when blacks stop looting and burning down black owned businesses in their own neighborhoods in response to perceived injustice; when they live a life of values(the high incarceration rate) and pass those values down to their children by word AND deed; when they break the cycle of dropping out of school; when they restore the family unit(fatherless children) as a foundation for building respect and morals in their children,; THEN I might be moved to believe that they need special help from the government and/or society as a whole. But as long as they continue to trash their own neighborhoods and businesses, teach their children to do anything to "get theirs", and allow their sons and daughters to grow up without a stable father figure; their cries of it being the white man's fault will carry little weight.

Perhaps it would be more constructive to separate the "how we got here" from the reality of where we are. The former inevitably leads to blame and distracts attention away from the from solving the problems that we face as a nation.

To me, race is little more than a complicating factor in all of this. (That is not to say that race is irrelevant). By complicating factor I mean is that black people cannot escape perceptions built over many generations of people in this country. Their own skin allows everyone who chooses to do so to identify black people as "them" in virtually every interaction in their lives that involves anyone who has a different color skin. Biases -- some conscious and some subconscious -- are applied to them more frequently than others because they are so instantly identifiable as "them." This makes their struggles more difficult than those of, say, the Irish.

I think this is a more constructive thought experiment than the blame game ... If we removed any children from the resources and examples of their family -- lets make in the Trump kids in their youth -- and begin a new cycle with them it would be interesting to see what happens. Put them in the worst housing in the worst crime ridden neighborhoods with the worst schools. Make only the lowest paying jobs available so they never really make enough to live on. Now surround them with people who are in the same dire circumstances. Let it play out for five or six generations. How do the decendents Trump end up? My guess is that they wouldn't do much better than the poorest people today are doing. Even those who somehow find a way out are treated differently, and they are paraded out to shame all those who don't every time the debate reaches a certain point. But in the big picture, an environment of despair has the same general affect on most, I suspect.

The real question is how do we fix the structural problems in our society that allow so many people to live in grim inescapable poverty? How do we make sure that skin color isn't a factor in criminal justice and that poor children get the same quality education that more affluent kids get so they have access to employment that can break the cycle? Answering thes questions could lead to changes that would reduce crime, stimulate the economy, reduce the staggering amount we pay for social programs, and reduce tensions across the country. It's a win for everyone! Blame gets us nowhere, and dividing groups into "us" and "them" only perpetuates the problems.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Racial superiority goes back to tribalism and is as old as time. It's always been fucked up, and in this country if you were to blame anyone it should be the colonial English.

I actually thought it was an invention if the 1600s or so to sorta be paired with colonialism. I don't think Romans viewed people as races per se.