2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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kmoose

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And let’s not ignore the time he was fined (what, a million dollars?) for using illegal Polish immigrants. Yeah, he absolutely cares about American workers!

Yes, let's not forget about the Polish immigrant story. Trump was never fined for hiring illegal workers from Poland. A contractor of Trump's apparently hired a bunch(200) of illegal Polish immigrants to help demolish a building in NYC. They did this in order to meet a deadline set by Trump. All of the other workers hired by the contractor were union tradesmen. The money that Trump was required to pay was not a fine for hiring illegals, because Trump didn't hire them. The money aspect comes because the union members sued a union boss, the contractor, and Trump for lost pension and welfare funds by hiring the 200 non-union illegals. A judge ruled that Trump owed $325,000 plus interest. But that figure was later settled. The amount of the settlement was sealed.
 

NorthDakota

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The Shark Tank thing was said in jest and for effect and I fully admit I don’t follow them after the show to see if they take their companies elsewhere. On their updates, they never say that they take their companies overseas. The 2nd article, nope, didn’t look closely at every company, but I do know they could turn a profit (one of them for 102 years) in the USA, so I’m sure the most brilliant businessman of all time could turn a profit as well, IF he cared about American workers as much as he claims. But he doesn’t – he wants to make more and more money, even though he already has billions, American workers be damned.

But I am fully aware how hard it is to survive in the clothing industry in the USA. It is something that needs to be remedied, but it is NOT an easy fix, like the Donald makes it out to be.

But hey, let’s talk about his other businesses, non-clothing, in which he uses foreigners instead of Americans. He likes to pretend Americans won’t do the work, but when given the chance, he didn’t hire them despite there being applications from Americans. And let’s not ignore the time he was fined (what, a million dollars?) for using illegal Polish immigrants. Yeah, he absolutely cares about American workers!

Do you only buy shit that says "Made in USA" on it?
 

woolybug25

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Do you only buy shit that says "Made in USA" on it?

So which is it? Is it important to keep jobs in America or not? Because you're acting like it's not here, but that is what Trump is selling. You can't have it both ways.
 

Ndaccountant

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So which is it? Is it important to keep jobs in America or not? Because you're acting like it's not here, but that is what Trump is selling. You can't have it both ways.

Sure you can (though to be clear this is an example only and I have no idea if this is what Trump means, nor do I care and it does not necessarily represent my views).

1) Business A is using cheap foreign labor to lower costs and gain margin / market share or any other advantage. Direct competitor business B is not and the business suffers.

2) Business B can A) lose competitive advantage and do nothing B) innovate, which could lower costs, offer a premium offering to offset higher labor, etc C) mimic business A and import

3) Business B chooses option C given specific market conditions

4) Business B makes it clear that trade restrictions are needed to protect US workers

In this case, Business B needs to import to stay viable. Business B would not have imported goods if not for competition. In order to not import, Business B needs to make sure Business A does not, or at least penalize A's products. Business B could still be very vocal about the need to change trade agreements while still taking advantage of the same agreements today. That doesn't make Business B a hypocrite.
 

NDinL.A.

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Do you only buy shit that says "Made in USA" on it?

Nope. But I’m not running for President, am I? I am not the one saying that I care so much about American jobs, while simultaneously farming out those jobs (illegally in at least one case, unethically in several others) to undocumented workers, am I?

I am also not a sexist, racist, flip-flopping, Hillary-supporting, lying POS like Trump, but I guess that doesn’t matter to some people. But I for sure will #nevertrump.
 

NorthDakota

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Sure you can (though to be clear this is an example only and I have no idea if this is what Trump means, nor do I care and it does not necessarily represent my views).

1) Business A is using cheap foreign labor to lower costs and gain margin / market share or any other advantage. Direct competitor business B is not and the business suffers.

2) Business B can A) lose competitive advantage and do nothing B) innovate, which could lower costs, offer a premium offering to offset higher labor, etc C) mimic business A and import

3) Business B chooses option C given specific market conditions

4) Business B makes it clear that trade restrictions are needed to protect US workers

In this case, Business B needs to import to stay viable. Business B would not have imported goods if not for competition. In order to not import, Business B needs to make sure Business A does not, or at least penalize A's products. Business B could still be very vocal about the need to change trade agreements while still taking advantage of the same agreements today. That doesn't make Business B a hypocrite.

This here.
 

NDinL.A.

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Yes, let's not forget about the Polish immigrant story. Trump was never fined for hiring illegal workers from Poland. A contractor of Trump's apparently hired a bunch(200) of illegal Polish immigrants to help demolish a building in NYC. They did this in order to meet a deadline set by Trump. All of the other workers hired by the contractor were union tradesmen. The money that Trump was required to pay was not a fine for hiring illegals, because Trump didn't hire them. The money aspect comes because the union members sued a union boss, the contractor, and Trump for lost pension and welfare funds by hiring the 200 non-union illegals. A judge ruled that Trump owed $325,000 plus interest. But that figure was later settled. The amount of the settlement was sealed.

It was under Trump, so HE gets the blame as well. Here’s the story.

Sometime between 1979 and 1980, Trump hired a contractor to demolish an old building in midtown Manhattan to make way for Trump Tower. The contractor signed on workers from a local union and, to meet Trump’s tight deadline, also brought on 200 undocumented laborers from Poland dubbed the "Polish Brigade."

The Polish employees were off-the-books, working 12-hour shifts seven days a week for $4 to $5 an hour, with no overtime. Some workers were never paid what they were owed.

In 1983, union members sued a union boss, Trump and his contractor for cheating the union out of pension and welfare funds by hiring the Polish Brigade. Trump owed the union pension fund $1 million, the plaintiffs said.

Appearing in court in 1990, Trump blamed the violations on the contractor and denied knowing that the Polish workers were undocumented.

"Nobody’s proven to me that they were were illegal," Trump said, according to a Newsday report from the time.

Nonetheless, Manhattan Judge Charles Stewart ruled against Trump a year later, saying that his representative "knew that the Polish workers were doing demolition work" and that his company participated in a "conspiracy" to cheat the union.

Trump owed the workers a little more than $325,000 plus interest and attorney’s fees and costs, Stewart ruled.

That wasn’t the end of it. Trump appealed and it would drag on for another decade.

In 1998, several members of the Polish Brigade told the New York Times about their horrid working conditions. But Trump repeated that he didn’t know about the legal status of the Polish Brigade and said he would not settle the case out of court "on principle," according to the New York Times.

If the case was retried and Trump lost again, he would have had to pay about $4 million, the Times calculated.

A year later, Trump quietly settled, according to the New York Daily News, but the agreement was placed under seal.

"It has been resolved on terms agreeable to both sides," labor lawyer Wendy Sloan, who represented the union members, told the New York Daily News.

Yeah, he's just a peach of a guy. He also "never settles" according to him, which is funny considering how much he has settled.
 
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pkt77242

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Sure you can (though to be clear this is an example only and I have no idea if this is what Trump means, nor do I care and it does not necessarily represent my views).

1) Business A is using cheap foreign labor to lower costs and gain margin / market share or any other advantage. Direct competitor business B is not and the business suffers.

2) Business B can A) lose competitive advantage and do nothing B) innovate, which could lower costs, offer a premium offering to offset higher labor, etc C) mimic business A and import

3) Business B chooses option C given specific market conditions

4) Business B makes it clear that trade restrictions are needed to protect US workers

In this case, Business B needs to import to stay viable. Business B would not have imported goods if not for competition. In order to not import, Business B needs to make sure Business A does not, or at least penalize A's products. Business B could still be very vocal about the need to change trade agreements while still taking advantage of the same agreements today. That doesn't make Business B a hypocrite.

I agree with the example you gave but the real question is has Trump spoke out about this issue before he ran for President? If he hasn't that makes him more likely than not a pandering hypocrite, and if he has spoken out about it before it would give credence to the idea that he is not a hypocrite.

*I tried a quick Google search but it just pulled up recent articles talking about Trump hiring foreign workers, nothing about his past stance on the issue.
 

NorthDakota

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Nope. But I’m not running for President, am I? I am not the one saying that I care so much about American jobs, while simultaneously farming out those jobs (illegally in at least one case, unethically in several others) to undocumented workers, am I?

So you want The Donald to play the game with a hand tied behind his back?

I don't watch the news a lot, hasn't he basically advocated for conditions to change that will ultimately make it easier for companies to justify hiring American workers?
 

GoIrish41

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So you want The Donald to play the game with a hand tied behind his back?

I don't watch the news a lot, hasn't he basically advocated for conditions to change that will ultimately make it easier for companies to justify hiring American workers?

Not that I've heard. He generally just thumps his chest and says "I'm going to bring the jobs back from China."
 

NDinL.A.

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So you want The Donald to play the game with a hand tied behind his back?

I don't watch the news a lot, hasn't he basically advocated for conditions to change that will ultimately make it easier for companies to justify hiring American workers?

No, he says we’re going to tax the crap out of China and Mexico, and then if they don’t conform, errrrrrr, “behave” as he puts it, we’ll just build new businesses here, just like that lol.

Oh, and those 45% tariffs he is proposing? You and I and every other tax-paying Americans are absolutely effed if this happens, as those tariffs will be passed down right to us.
 

Ndaccountant

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I agree with the example you gave but the real question is has Trump spoke out about this issue before he ran for President? If he hasn't that makes him more likely than not a pandering hypocrite, and if he has spoken out about it before it would give credence to the idea that he is not a hypocrite.

*I tried a quick Google search but it just pulled up recent articles talking about Trump hiring foreign workers, nothing about his past stance on the issue.

Attached is a reprint of an interview he gave in 1990 for playboy.....here is the point that he made then on trade and international relations.....

How do you feel about Japan’s economic pre-eminence?

Japan gets almost seventy percent of its oil from the Persian Gulf, relies on ships led back home by our destroyers, battleships, helicopters, frog men. Then the Japanese sail home, where they give the oil to fuel their factories so that they can knock the hell out of General Motors, Chrysler and Ford. Their openly screwing us is a disgrace. Why aren't they paying us? The Japanese cajole us, they bow to us, they tell us how great we are and then they pick our pockets. We're losing hundreds of billions of dollars a year while they laugh at our stupidity. The Japanese have their great scientists making cars and VCRs and we have our great scientists making missiles so we can defend Japan. Why aren't we being reimbursed for our costs? The Japanese double- screw the U.S., a real trick: First they take all our money with their consumer goods, then they put it back in buying all of Manhattan. So either way, we lose.

You're opposed to Japanese buying real estate in the U.S.?

I have great respect for the Japanese people and list many of them as great friends. But, hey, if you want to open up a business in Japan, good luck. It's virtually impossible. But the Japanese can buy our buildings, our Wall Street firms, and there's virtually no.thing to stop them. In fact, bidding on a building in New York is an act of futility, because the Japanese will pay more than it's worth just to screw us. They want to own Manhattan. Of course, I shouldn't even be complaining about it, because I'm one of the big beneficiaries of it. If I ever wanted to sell any of my properties, I'd have a field day. But it's an embarrassment! I give great credit to the Japanese and their leaders, because they have made our leaders look totally second rate.


A group of Japanese visitors to New York was recently asked if there were anything in the U.S. they would like to buy. The answer: towels.

That's fair trade: They'll take the towels and we'll buy their cars. It doesn’t sound like a good deal to me. They have totally outsmarted the American politician; they have no respect for us, because they're getting a free ride. Of course, it's not just the Japanese or the Europeans- the Saudis, the Kuwaitis walk all over us.


The Arabs also spend plenty of money in your casinos, don't they?


They lose a million, two million at the tables and they're so happy because they had such a great weekend. If you lost a million dollars, you'd be sick for the rest of your life, maybe. They write me letters telling me what a wonderful time they had.


You have taken out full-page ads in several major newspapers that not only concern U.S. foreign trade but call for the death penalty, too. Why?

Because I hate seeing this country go to hell. We're laughed at by the rest of the world. In order to bring law and order back into our cities, we need the death penalty and authority given back to the police. I got fifteen thousand positive letters on the death-penalty ad. I got ten negative or slightly negative ones.
.

https://thecorporateculture.com/2015/playboy-interviewed-donald-trump-25-years-ago/
 

pkt77242

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Attached is a reprint of an interview he gave in 1990 for playboy.....here is the point that he made then on trade and international relations.....



https://thecorporateculture.com/2015/playboy-interviewed-donald-trump-25-years-ago/

To be fair he doesn't really talk about bringing jobs back to the U.S. He talks about how Japan is screwing us by living under the umbrella of protection that we provide while not paying for it, and about how that is helping Japan (though to be fair Japan was about to enter their Lost Decade) to prosper. Nothing really about other countries stealing our jobs, or companies building factories overseas and how we need to bring them back.

ETA: I read what you posted and a portion of the interview from the actual link but I couldn't make it all the way through.
 

phgreek

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This here.

I can certainly see where it is plausible that someone is locked into the mission at hand, and does what it takes to win in the paradigm wherein they exist. In Trump's case he needs to win for himself, his family, his employees, and any stockholders, and the best way to do that is look at all options, and be willing to do whatever it takes to win within the law.

Should he be elected President, would he shift and lock into a new mission. Really tough to say because he at least has some ongoing missions that would conflict with how he claims he'd achieve the presidential mission. We have to at least acknowledge the optics aren't great. Even if folks take Trump at his word, and trust his abilities to lock in to the presidential mission, he seems to exist in a world that is antithetical to some of his stated policies/strategies to make America Great Again.

I think people just need to decide if they trust his intent and his abilities, and stop listening to the other side at this point. Of course they are going to point to inconsistencies, it is their job...of sorts.

I mean they are stuck in a position where they have an admitted criminal/proven liar (specifically related to Federal Service experience she claims as important to her qualifications I might add) and a self avowed socialist to choose from...and the criminal/Liar appears to be colluding with the DNC to make the socialist choice go away. Thats not an enviable position to be in, so there is a little extra motivation to legitimize their steaming pile. (yes the republican side is marginally better for my taste...surprise I'm conservative)

I'm not voting for Trump...but I'm not voting for Hillary. If I had to choose with a gun to my head w/o a third party option, I'd choose Trump. Really hoping it doesn't come to a Clinton v Trump election. Sanders v Trump, I'd choose not to blow up the world, and probably be socialist for 4 years...Bernie would get no help from the House and Senate, and his looney executive orders could be undone. Anyone else but Trump on the R ticket would get my vote regardless of who the Dems trot out.
 

Ndaccountant

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To be fair he doesn't really talk about bringing jobs back to the U.S. He talks about how Japan is screwing us by living under the umbrella of protection that we provide while not paying for it, and about how that is helping Japan (though to be fair Japan was about to enter their Lost Decade) to prosper. Nothing really about other countries stealing our jobs, or companies building factories overseas and how we need to bring them back.

ETA: I read what you posted and a portion of the interview from the actual link but I couldn't make it all the way through.

True, but he wasn't really asked about it either. The point of those quotes was that he has, for a long time, run his mouth on trade agreements and how he thinks the US is at a disadvantage. His stance today isn't really new. He just has transferred it from opinion to a pseudo public policy stance.
 

NDinL.A.

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Let's make America great again!

I pray that you are joking. Every time I talk to a Trump supporter about Trump's flip-flopping on pretty much every major issue, his inability to talk even remotely intelligently on most foreign policy issues, his treatment of women, his racist rhetoric, his lies, etc etc etc, all they can come back with is: "Yeah, but he'll make America great again! Trump 2016!!! Woo-hoo!"

It's incredibly funny because they literally have no come back for any of that, but also incredibly sad for our country that they’d follow this chump. (Also, watching him have 3 different takes on the same issue last night – abortion – was friggin’ classic.)
 

irishfan

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I pray that you are joking. Every time I talk to a Trump supporter about Trump's flip-flopping on pretty much every major issue, his inability to talk even remotely intelligently on most foreign policy issues, his treatment of women, his racist rhetoric, his lies, etc etc etc, all they can come back with is: "Yeah, but he'll make America great again! Trump 2016!!! Woo-hoo!"

It's incredibly funny because they literally have no come back for any of that, but also incredibly sad for our country that they’d follow this chump. (Also, watching him have 3 different takes on the same issue last night – abortion – was friggin’ classic.)

Does he treat them any differently than he treats men? He seems to insult anyone who disagrees with him regardless of gender. I don't know if it's true or not, but I know he claims to have more female than male executives at his company.
 

NDinL.A.

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Does he treat them any differently than he treats men? He seems to insult anyone who disagrees with him regardless of gender. I don't know if it's true or not, but I know he claims to have more female than male executives at his company.

When you say: "Women, you have to treat them like shit" and state that there was blood coming out of a female reporters you know what, among MANY other unbelievable things about women, then yes you are more horrible to women than men, as crazy as that seems. The man is unbelievably sexist.

As for his claim about female executives, he also says that Latinos love him LOL and that nobody treats women better than him. Soooooo...
 

GoIrish41

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Drown out in Trump's insane town hall last night by his comments about how women should be punished for having abortions was his answer to a question from an audience member about the high costs of mass incarcerations Trump said he would move even further toward private prisons. Chris Matthews was too busy trying to have Trump go down a different rabbit hole chasing another dumb thing he said, and let that answer glide by. Even so, I'd like to ask how many people think private prisons are a good thing? I was personally shocked by the answer. I thought most people thought that businesses profiting from mass incarceration was a big problem. Am I wrong about that?
 

woolybug25

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Drown out in Trump's insane town hall last night by his comments about how women should be punished for having abortions was his answer to a question from an audience member about the high costs of mass incarcerations Trump said he would move even further toward private prisons. Chris Matthews was too busy trying to have Trump go down a different rabbit hole chasing another dumb thing he said, and let that answer glide by. Even so, I'd like to ask how many people think private prisons are a good thing? I was personally shocked by the answer. I thought most people thought that businesses profiting from mass incarceration was a big problem. Am I wrong about that?

We already have private prisons, about 8-10% of our prisoners are incarcerated in them, and they have been horrible for the country. I'm surprised Bernie didn't jump all over that comment, as he wrote this very well thought out piece on the subject in September of 2015.

We Must End For-Profit Prisons
 

GoIrish41

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We already have private prisons, about 8-10% of our prisoners are incarcerated in them, and they have been horrible for the country. I'm surprised Bernie didn't jump all over that comment, as he wrote this very well thought out piece on the subject in September of 2015.

We Must End For-Profit Prisons

I know we have for profit prisons, but I haven't heard anyone else say we should have more. I thought most people had concluded by now that this was a terrible idea. Is anyone else saying we need more of them? I was a little stunned to hear his proposal, but then considered the source.

I will give the Bernie piece a read. Thanks.
 

woolybug25

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I know we have for profit prisons, but I haven't heard anyone else say we should have more. I thought most people had concluded by now that this was a terrible idea. Is anyone else saying we need more of them? I was a little stunned to hear his proposal, but then considered the source.

I will give the Bernie piece a read. Thanks.

I haven't heard anyone calling for them, and like you, assumed it was widely believed to be proven as a terrible practice. I even assumed we were trying to move away from them.

But Trump...
 

GoIrish41

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I haven't heard anyone calling for them, and like you, assumed it was widely believed to be proven as a terrible practice. I even assumed we were trying to move away from them.

But Trump...

I think that in combination with the 3 strikes laws and the war on drugs that these prisons and the lobbiests who grease the skids for them have helped to cause our prison populations to explode.

Trump is a fucking dumpster fire. And like I said, this stupid proposal was overshadowed by multiple other stupid things he said during his town hall.

His support is starting to fade. I doubt he gets to 1237 at this point. If I lived in Cleveland I'd be planning to be out of town the week of that convention. It will not be pretty when someone else gets the nomination.
 

phgreek

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I think that in combination with the 3 strikes laws and the war on drugs that these prisons and the lobbiests who grease the skids for them have helped to cause our prison populations to explode.

Trump is a fucking dumpster fire. And like I said, this stupid proposal was overshadowed by multiple other stupid things he said during his town hall.

His support is starting to fade. I doubt he gets to 1237 at this point. If I lived in Cleveland I'd be planning to be out of town the week of that convention. It will not be pretty when someone else gets the nomination.

Yup...if he is the front runner by a bunch...shit will hit the fan.

Now, will angry conservatives burn down Cleveland...mmmm, no. Will they be a powder keg without a match..YES! So what will light the fuse...well. If you are a Conservative going to the convention to set Trump folks straight, don't. If are a Liberal and you have in mind a grand troll, don't.

Seriously, this is a very bad time...good or bad judgement on this particular decision doesn't matter...the Republican establishment lost the confidence of a block too big to ignore...and they are about to ignore them...someone is going to get the brunt of that anger. If we avoid immediate violence, the destruction of the party will be what Trump folks have left...There is literally no positive outcome for Republicans if something big does not happen soon, prior to the convention.
 
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