2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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pkt77242

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No. He didn't walk it back. Your own quote of his contained the phrase "...until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on." His position hasn't changed on the idea that the shutdown is only to allow for proper vetting to happen, then let those who pass proper vetting come in.



I didn't need to post the Republican numbers because I was not trying to deny anything about the Republicans and the runup to war. You were the one who said:



Well it wasn't just the Republicans who voted to authorize the war without any extra funding, so quit bitching about it. If the Dems had overwhelmingly opposed it, then you would have a point. But they didn't, so you don't.

LOL. Yes it matters. Republicans overwhelmingly favor war. That matters. No talk about paying for it. Also you seem to have skipped over the part about the Presidential election. Nice, avoid what you have no answer for and then try a weak attack.

Also as I have pointed out in my last post, the "until our representatives can figure it out" is complete bullshit. There is no way to stop Muslims from entering the country.
 

kmoose

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LOL. Yes it matters. Republicans overwhelmingly favor war. That matters. No talk about paying for it. Also you seem to have skipped over the part about the Presidential election. Nice, avoid what you have no answer for and then try a weak attack.

Also as I have pointed out in my last post, the "until our representatives can figure it out" is complete bullshit. There is no way to stop Muslims from entering the country.

Free college tuition is bullshit. Universal Healthcare is bullshit. The entire Democratic Party is bullshit.

Me making those statements doesn't make it true any more than you making them about Trump makes what you say true. Keep in mind(if I remember correctly) that Trump's comments came in the aftermath of the Paris attacks, after the news came out that some of the terrorists had blended in with the refugees from Syria. So that was the context to his statement.

I'm not defending Trump's plan. I'm simply tired of people saying that he said something he didn't. It's gotten to the point where I bet that most people believe that he said that all Mexicans are rapists. So if you want to debate the wisdom of the idea, then you can have that conversation with yourself because I don't think it would work, either.
 

irishff1014

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Trump and Cruz are just hurting themselves right now with their antics. Kasich I wish was a little bit more flashy. I liked him a while back he seems to have somewhat of a cool head.
 

pkt77242

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Free college tuition is bullshit. Universal Healthcare is bullshit. The entire Democratic Party is bullshit.

Me making those statements doesn't make it true any more than you making them about Trump makes what you say true. Keep in mind(if I remember correctly) that Trump's comments came in the aftermath of the Paris attacks, after the news came out that some of the terrorists had blended in with the refugees from Syria. So that was the context to his statement.

I'm not defending Trump's plan. I'm simply tired of people saying that he said something he didn't. It's gotten to the point where I bet that most people believe that he said that all Mexicans are rapists. So if you want to debate the wisdom of the idea, then you can have that conversation with yourself because I don't think it would work, either.

Nope, his statement came after the San Bernardino attacks (I think it was about 5 days afterwards).

He did say to ban all Muslims from coming here. Not forever but for a period of time. That is factual, you seem to think that it was to give Congress time to work on something, while I think he was doing it to get votes (that part is opinion). Pure pandering. He might have meant vetting but he sure as Hell didn't say it, so you are putting words in his mouth even more than I am.
 

kmoose

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Nope, his statement came after the San Bernardino attacks (I think it was about 5 days afterwards).

He did say to ban all Muslims from coming here. Not forever but for a period of time. That is factual, you seem to think that it was to give Congress time to work on something, while I think he was doing it to get votes (that part is opinion). Pure pandering. He might have meant vetting but he sure as Hell didn't say it, so you are putting words in his mouth even more than I am.

I'm not going to debate the timeline. The Paris attacks happened on November 13th, on November 17th the Washington Post reported that the passport found near one of the terrorists in Paris was fake, and that Serbian authorities had arrested a Syrian refugee in a camp in their country who was using a passport with the exact same details as the dead terrorist, then on Dec. 2nd, the San Bernardino shootings occurred. Dec. 7th(less than 30 days after Paris) Trump released his "ban Muslims from entering the country" press release. So the release was closer, chronologically, to the San Bernardino shootings, yes. But to pretend like the Paris attacks had no bearing on the idea is ridiculous.
 

phgreek

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Will the Republican party, which was so fond of saying that elections have consequences following the 2010 and 2014 mid-term elections, permit the President of the United States to appoint the next Supreme Court Justice? Or will they stonewall his nominee(s) with the hope of winning the presidency in 2016? Choosing the latter could very well fire up the Democratic base and increase voter turn-out. A large voter turn-out usually doesn't bode well for Republican presidential candidates.

Well considering Mr Obama said that in 2009...I think that was an FU to him. There have been 15 or so nominations shot down due to opposition to the president...let's call it what it is...Mr Obama will nominate...but it will get the Harry Reid treatment...shrug.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Well considering Mr Obama said that in 2009...I think that was an FU to him. There have been 15 or so nominations shot down due to opposition to the president...let's call it what it is...Mr Obama will nominate...but it will get the Harry Reid treatment...shrug.

And Bush said a similar thing after his re-election. I don't know if he used the exact same wording, but he talked about his "mandate" and referred to the election as an "accountability moment." It's not an Obama concept.
 

brick4956

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Clintons= piece of shit human beings #RobertByrd, #WilliamFulbright, #Barry Goldwater all segregationists that either Bill or Hillary campaigned for and praised over the years. Even awarding one those people the Presidential Medal of Freedom. So the Clintons are basically a fucking joke that will lie to get ahead any way they can in life
 
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Cackalacky

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The presidential mandate....
The power in a president’s mandate
The controversy over responsibility for the government shutdown has brought about one surprising consequence: a debate over the meaning of the term “presidential mandate.”

Republicans are asserting President Barack Obama has no warrant to call on Congress to fund the Affordable Care Act — since his victory margin in 2012 was so slender and the voters kept Republicans in control of the House of Representatives. The White House, meanwhile, is countering that the healthcare legislation was not only approved by both houses of Congress, and validated by the Supreme Court, but also was authenticated by his election triumph — after a campaign in which his opponent made hostility to the healthcare reform law his main point of attack.

“Presidential mandate” is an ideal brickbat in a political struggle because it is so carelessly used. Republicans who question Obama’s credentials today were quick to claim after the 2004 presidential election that, in then-Vice President Dick Cheney’s words, “the nation responded by giving [Bush] a mandate.” They ignore the reality that Obama gained re-election by a larger percentage of the popular vote than George W. Bush had received, and that his advantage in the Electoral College was 126 votes in contrast to Bush’s 35.

Journalists have further muddied the waters. After Bush’s 2004 re-election win, for example, an NPR reporter stated, “By any definition, I think you could call this a mandate.” Following Obama’s victory in 2012, however, NPR headed its website: “For Obama, Vindication, But Not a Mandate.” So debased has “presidential mandate” been in the currency of discourse that exasperated scholars are recommending that the expression be jettisoned.

But to abandon the idea of mandate altogether is to conclude that, in a democracy, American citizens can never express their will effectively and to ignore those times when they did so. In the 20th century, there is no clearer instance than the 1932 election, which ushered in President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s electrifying First Hundred Days of the spring of 1933 and the birth of the New Deal.

Instead of embarking on a fruitless quest for a precise definition of mandate, it is more rewarding to explore what a real mandate looks like.

Be forewarned that there is never perfect congruence between ballots cast and subsequent presidential behavior. In every contest, some voters are more interested in personality than policy, and others merely register traditional party identification. Moreover, in 1932 the Republican incumbent, President Herbert Hoover, was so strongly disliked that the Democratic challenger, Roosevelt, who knew that he was running well ahead, thought it ill-advised to risk articulating controversial positions.

On a couple of occasions — notably at Forbes Field, home of the Pittsburgh Pirates — he even voiced a conservative message. (When Roosevelt was set to return to Forbes Field in the 1936 campaign, he instructed his speech writer, Samuel Rosenman, to prepare a draft claiming that massive New Deal spending was consistent with his 1932 emphasis on frugality when he was last at the ballpark. Rosenman came back later that day with a facetious answer: “Mr. President, the only thing that you can say about that 1932 speech is to deny categorically that you ever made it.”)

For the most part, however, FDR offered the electorate a clear choice in 1932 by announcing that he intended to be a transformational president. “The country needs, and, unless I mistake its temper, the country demands bold, persistent experimentation,” Roosevelt declared at Oglethorpe University in Georgia. In Albany Roosevelt, who as governor of New York had created the first comprehensive system of unemployment relief, urged Americans to focus their attention on “the forgotten man at the bottom of the economic pyramid.”

Roosevelt was the first candidate in American history to deliver an acceptance address at a party convention. He flew through squalls to Chicago in a tri-motored plane, twice having to land for refueling. When he appeared before the cheering delegates, he said: “I have started out on the tasks that lie ahead by breaking the absurd tradition that the candidate should remain in professed ignorance of what has happened for weeks until he is formally notified.… You have nominated me and I know it, and I am here to thank you for the honor. Let it … be symbolic that in so doing I broke traditions. Let it be from now on the task of our party to break foolish traditions.… I pledge you, I pledge myself to a New Deal for the American people.”

In a campaign whose outcome may legitimately be regarded as yielding a mandate, it is important, too, for the opponent to demarcate major disagreement. That Hoover surely did.

“This election is not a mere shift from the ins to the outs,” Hoover asserted. “It means deciding the direction our nation will take over a century to come.” Roosevelt, he maintained, had embraced “the same philosophy of government which has poisoned all Europe” and was spouting “the fumes of the witch’s cauldron which boiled in Russia.”

In November 1932, the nation left no doubt about its verdict. In ousting Hoover, Roosevelt became the first Democrat to enter the White House with a popular majority (50 percent or more of the ballots) in 80 years — not since Franklin Pierce in 1852.

Hoover received the pitiful proportion of less than 40 percent of the popular vote. FDR swept every state south and west of Pennsylvania. He ended the long period of Republican predominance and began the creation of “the FDR coalition” whose influence persists, though in muted fashion, in the 21st century.

After taking office in 1933, Roosevelt sent 15 legislative requests up to the Hill. Congress, registering the mandate, passed all 15 — with numbers of Republicans crossing party lines to support him.

How is the 1932 precedent pertinent today? Clearly, Obama’s victory margin fell considerably short of FDR’s — and Democrats ought to be circumspect about claiming too great a mandate. But before this year, no one has ever suggested that, unless an election triumph is of huge dimensions, a president is proscribed from enforcing a law enacted by a previous Congress.

At times, the rhetoric of a negative mandate finds a place in the theater of the absurd. In 2012, GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney’s web video underscored his intent in a terse slogan: “Day one. Job one. Repeal Obamacare.”

Yet Republicans, after being soundly beaten a year ago, maintain that, in shutting down the U.S. government unless the president puts healthcare in abeyance, they are being faithful to the popular will. To take that claim seriously would be to strip the conception of “mandate” of all meaning and to render it a farce.
 

GoIrish41

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And Bush said a similar thing after his re-election. I don't know if he used the exact same wording, but he talked about his "mandate" and referred to the election as an "accountability moment." It's not an Obama concept.

He said that he earned some political capital and he intended to spend it. It was a laughable comment, considering how close the election was. He spoke as if he won in a landslide and he was going to do the people's will, when roughly half of the country disagreed with him ... Hardly a mandate.

All that and I'd still almost support this guy over either of the GOP front runners this year. As bad as Bush was, I think those two could really fuck this country up.
 
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ND NYC

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Can (R) leadership be serious about holding off a Presidential appointment to the SCOTUS...until after the Fall election (and January 2017 swearing in)?

Basically they want (are hoping for) the entire process to only begin about a year from now?? and more than likely having the person in place spring/summer 2017? this is crazy talk IMO.

Irony is that in doing this, they will ensure this is a "front and center issue" for months leading up to the presidential election, and damn near ensure a (D) gets elected in Nov due to people flocking to the polls in disgust that our elected leaders cant/wont even try to fill the supreme court due to their partisan politics and thereby ensure that a (D) makes the appointment anyway.

BTW those Cruz outtakes above were downright disturbing...is he a Vampire?
 
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woolybug25

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He said that he earned some political capital and he intended to spend it. It was a laughable comment, considering how close the election was. He spoke as if he won in a landslide and he was going to do the people's will, when roughly half of the country disagreed with him ... Hardly a mandate.

All that and I'd still almost support this guy over either of the GOP front runners this year. As bad as Bush was, I think those two could really fuck this country up.

Wow... I never would have imagined ever saying this... But if there were a world where GW could run against Trump and Clinton, I would vote for him. It wouldn't even be a tough decision for me. lol
 

phgreek

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And Bush said a similar thing after his re-election. I don't know if he used the exact same wording, but he talked about his "mandate" and referred to the election as an "accountability moment." It's not an Obama concept.

Ok stretch armstrong (You know if you go too far your jelly will come out)

...the point is, it was being thrown, as stated, back in Mr Obama's face...because he said that exact same thing. It was a cram it up your ass kind of thing. Was Mr. Obama responding to Mr. Bush, if so he did so rather clumsily, because I didn't make the connection.
 

phgreek

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He said that he earned some political capital and he intended to spend it. It was a laughable comment, considering how close the election was. He spoke as if he won in a landslide and he was going to do the people's will, when roughly half of the country disagreed with him ... Hardly a mandate.

All that and I'd still almost support this guy over either of the GOP front runners this year. As bad as Bush was, I think those two could really fuck this country up.

Yea I hate it when politicians do that...ignore half the electorate...assholes...oh wait not Mr. Obama...it looks good on him.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Ok stretch armstrong (You know if you go too far your jelly will come out)

...the point is, it was being thrown, as stated, back in Mr Obama's face...because he said that exact same thing. It was a cram it up your ass kind of thing. Was Mr. Obama responding to Mr. Bush, if so he did so rather clumsily, because I didn't make the connection.

See the posts above. The "political capital" line is literally the same thing as saying that elections have consequences.
 

phgreek

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See the posts above. The "political capital" line is literally the same thing as saying that elections have consequences.

not saying the concept isn't well established..its the particular phrase, and who it needs to be attributed to...IT WAS NOT first uttered by an R...so you can expand the discussion about who first said anything remotely like it...or you can say...yup...you are right and move on...my GOD someone associated with liberalism may have gotten something wrong. AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
 

GoIrish41

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not saying the concept isn't well established..its the particular phrase, and who it needs to be attributed to...IT WAS NOT first uttered by an R...so you can expand the discussion about who first said anything remotely like it...or you can say...yup...you are right and move on...my GOD someone associated with liberalism may have gotten something wrong. AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

To me, it's not about the line, really. It's that the election was sssooooo close. His "political capital" line was nonsensical.
 

phgreek

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To me, it's not about the line, really. It's that the election was sssooooo close. His "political capital" line was nonsensical.

I...know...the...concept...has...existed...even...before...Mr. Obama...uttered...his...rendition.

I...was...Responding...to...someone...who...attributed...a...specific...phrase...incorrectly.

What...about...that...do...you...not...understand?

Now, on to the richest of hypocrisy related to supreme court appointments...

I see Chuck Shumer is at it...here is a guy who said we should not let Mr. Bush have any supreme court nominees, some 16 months or before the end of his second term. And here we are 11 months to the end of Mr. Obama's and he is outraged Republicans would have similar sentiments...so no matter how you parse "mandate", this guy is an asshole who doesn't think anyone remembers his bullshit, and that everyone with a D will fall in line because he said so...SMH.

And Elizabeth Warren (Indian name Imakashitup), you can go to hell. You were on board with some messed up shit that impacted how lower judges are appointed...ie you changed the rules to suit you...so you can kiss my ass too. No standing to have any opinion about the process.
 

kmoose

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Can (R) leadership be serious about holding off a Presidential appointment to the SCOTUS...until after the Fall election (and January 2017 swearing in)?

Basically they want (are hoping for) the entire process to only begin about a year from now?? and more than likely having the person in place spring/summer 2017? this is crazy talk IMO.

They're politicians. Of course they can be, and probably are, serious about it. Their assbaggery knows no bounds. It's one thing to say, "We won't approve someone unless they are perfect for us", but quite another thing to say, "We won't consider anyone, no matter their qualifications and/or politics."
 

phgreek

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They're politicians. Of course they can be, and probably are, serious about it. Their assbaggery knows no bounds. It's one thing to say, "We won't approve someone unless they are perfect for us", but quite another thing to say, "We won't consider anyone, no matter their qualifications and/or politics."

...like this you mean?

https://youtu.be/tkRZVE3aDm8

would it sound better had they devoted a speach to it and said something like "I'll do everything in my power to prevent another idealog from joining Kagan and Sotomayor"
 
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FearTheBeard

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Watching a recording of the republican debate and this is gold. Jeb looks like hes about to pop a blood vessel when trumps attacking him and his brother
 

GoIrish41

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I...know...the...concept...has...existed...even...before...Mr. Obama...uttered...his...rendition.

I...was...Responding...to...someone...who...attributed...a...specific...phrase...incorrectly.

What...about...that...do...you...not...understand?

And yet you still miss the point. I'm not talking about who said it first because, who gives a shit? Neither was the first to say it and neither will likely be the last. I'm saying that when Bush said it, it was particularly stupid. What about that do you not understand?
 
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phgreek

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Exactly like that. My post was not a swipe at Republicans; it was a swipe at politicians. And Democrats are politicians, too.

But if you have one kid who is doing something that is wrong, you don't allow them to say, "Well, my brother (or sister) is doing it, so I can, too."

YUP...agree
 

phgreek

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And yet both Alito and Roberts got confirmed. So what is your point?

Well...so are Kagan and Sotomayor. Shumers comments were after Alito and Roberts, AS WERE the comments coming from the GOP...SO WHATS YOUR POINT?
 

phgreek

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And yet you still miss the point. I'm not talking about who said it first because, who gives a shit? Neither was the first to say it and neither will likely be the last. I'm saying that when Bush said it, it was particularly stupid. What about that do you not understand?

You said it to me, which was at best tangential to the point I was making...so while I understand it, its not the point of the previous conversation, which was, "elections have consequences", was attributed to Mcconell or someone...as if this was their line...and was somehow offensive. I was simply pointing out it was first said by BO, and McConell said it as a swipe at BO...he who coined THAT rendition of the concept.

I did not see where you had a point to make other than to say...yea, well Republicans are idiots too...yea, I get that, they are all idiots. And yea, we all throw in the ...but...but your side sucks too...but again...that wasn't my point. The bigger point in my original response was that ...yea, the Republicans are going to sit on whomever Obama pushes forward for SCOTUS...nothing new.
 
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