Wisconsin Company Limits Muslim Prayers to Scheduled Breaks

[Cackalacky]

I guess my opinion can be broken down as follows:

1) If the company could not find a way to reasonably accommodate flexing some of their break time to pray, that seems pretty bad and probably discriminatory.

2) If the company did offer a reasonable solution, but the workers found it unacceptable... or the workers were taking advantage of previous accommodations made by the company and that prompted the policy change... then I don't have any sympathy for the workers.

From reading this thread and snippets online, I'm not sure which it is right now.

Per the articles:

Brillion-based Ariens Company changed the policy Thursday. Until then, Muslim employees were allowed to leave the production line twice a shift to pray two of their five daily required prayers. Workers would pray five minutes at a time, designating their duties to colleagues while they prayed.

But Ariens is now asking employees to pray during scheduled breaks. A company representative told WBAY-TV the "manufacturing environment does not allow for unscheduled breaks in production."

Ariens said the company "put a considerable amount of effort into finding a solution that allows for employees of Muslim faith to pray during work hours," including meeting with members of the company's Somali employee group and consulting with local Muslim faith representatives.

Hooper says that Ariens' claims of "undue hardship" accusations are unfounded.

"In this case, it seemed that things were going well. Ariens obviously had Muslim employees that were taking their prayer breaks and operating efficiently. What changed?" asks Hooper. Regardless of Ariens' reasons for the policy change, Hooper feels it wasn't urgent enough to leave almost 50 employees without a job.

My biggest question is what prompted the policy change in the first place? Loss of revenue, non-muslim employee complaints for having to cover for the muslim employees 10 minutes a day? Union issue?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Allah is a picky dude

It's all based on where the sun is in the sky.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Don't know.

However, depending on the state, break times are defined as a benefit and not a right depending on hours worked. If this company has no legal obligation to even offer breaks under the law, then the whole debate is meaningless. They could simply choose to eliminate the break "benefit."

Our company provides two ten minute breaks with a 30 minute unpaid lunch. The breaks are paid time and therefore a benefit. The company, under Alabama law, has no legal obligation to provide the two ten minute breaks.

Prayer breaks are presumptively a right unless there's some reason they cause an undue burden.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Don't know.

However, depending on the state, break times are defined as a benefit and not a right depending on hours worked. If this company has no legal obligation to even offer breaks under the law, then the whole debate is meaningless. They could simply choose to eliminate the break "benefit."

Our company provides two ten minute breaks with a 30 minute unpaid lunch. The breaks are paid time and therefore a benefit. The company, under Alabama law, has no legal obligation to provide the two ten minute breaks.

It also can be influenced on whether or not the the job shop is union. Offering benefits or anything else to one group of people could be problematic. My employer has both union and non-union manufacturing. The treatment of "reflection rooms" is completely different between the two.

 

[RDU Irish]

Seems to me the Muslim work force has steadily increased to the point that accommodating workers ducking out for prayer while their sucker co-workers pick up the slack just doesn't work anymore. You better be bringing me a pork sandwich for lunch every day if you want me to pick up a full hour per week of your work. I imagine the plant grinds close to a halt over prayer times and it has progressively gotten worse until they finally had to address it. You think blue collar non-Muslims workers won't harbor some animosity over this? You end up with an increasingly Muslim work force as the Billy Bobs say screw it and the Akmeds recruit their friends to this Valhalla.

And then they have this moving target "schedule" - logistical nightmare - and I bet you don't have to deal with if you ship your jobs to Mexico. To quote the South Park Mormon episode "Dumb da dum dumb dumb"

How much you wanna bet these guys follow this like a Swiss watch on the weekends? And you wonder why there is zero manufacturing in the Middle East.

I'm not tip toeing around this one - F- these guys. You think a Muslim surgeon is putting down the scalpel in the middle of an operation to go pray? Get to work and deal with a few fewer virgins in the after life. I view this in the same light as the Jewish doctors who take off Christmas AND a bunch of Jewish holidays. Why wouldn't they pick up the Christian holidays? Oh, because no matter what and where, people will exploit situations to slack off every damn chance they get.

Muslim cops so lets rob the bank at prayer time. Muslim restaurant - no service at prayer times? Muslim pilot - who's flying this thing at prayer time? How many gas stations shut down for prayer time? Give me a freaking break (pun intended).

 

[Ndaccountant]

Seems to me the Muslim work force has steadily increased to the point that accommodating workers ducking out for prayer while their sucker co-workers pick up the slack just doesn't work anymore. You better be bringing me a pork sandwich for lunch every day if you want me to pick up a full hour per week of your work. I imagine the plant grinds close to a halt over prayer times and it has progressively gotten worse until they finally had to address it. You think blue collar non-Muslims workers won't harbor some animosity over this? You end up with an increasingly Muslim work force as the Billy Bobs say screw it and the Akmeds recruit their friends to this Valhalla.

And then they have this moving target "schedule" - logistical nightmare - and I bet you don't have to deal with if you ship your jobs to Mexico. To quote the South Park Mormon episode "Dumb da dum dumb dumb"

How much you wanna bet these guys follow this like a Swiss watch on the weekends? And you wonder why there is zero manufacturing in the Middle East.

I'm not tip toeing around this one - F- these guys. You think a Muslim surgeon is putting down the scalpel in the middle of an operation to go pray? Get to work and deal with a few fewer virgins in the after life. I view this in the same light as the Jewish doctors who take off Christmas AND a bunch of Jewish holidays. Why wouldn't they pick up the Christian holidays? Oh, because no matter what and where, people will exploit situations to slack off every damn chance they get.

Muslim cops so lets rob the bank at prayer time. Muslim restaurant - no service at prayer times? Muslim pilot - who's flying this thing at prayer time? How many gas stations shut down for prayer time? Give me a freaking break (pun intended).

Can't tell if intentional or not.......

 

[RDU Irish]

Per the articles:

My biggest question is what prompted the policy change in the first place? Loss of revenue, non-muslim employee complaints for having to cover for the muslim employees 10 minutes a day? Union issue?

Do they teleport there an back? And if you have 100 Muslims ducking out at the same time you don't see how this creates a significant operations management issue?

If I'm covering for this co-worker every f-ing day for probably 20 minutes I really don't give two craps what his deal is - I'm progressively increasing my anger level and it is going to boil over at some point. I'm doing the math of an hour and a half per week, close to two full weeks of pay per year that I am picking up for nuttin. That stuff will grind away at folks. Trying to claim it isn't a hardship is f-ing ridiculous.

 

[RDU Irish]

Can't tell if intentional or not.......

HA, fully intentional. Have to put that in there to see if anyone is paying attention to the rant.

 

[irishff1014]

Not really, especially in a manufacturing plant or assembly line setting. If your job is screwing in three bolts to an assembly as it comes down the line, you would need to have someone take over or cover for you to keep the line moving. One of my summer jobs was on a assembly line that made window units for cars. Breaks were at specific times and everyone went at the same time.

Not everyone would be able to take a break at the same time but you could have like 3 rovers that's we trained on the whole line that way the could fill in anywheres. But I do understand where you are coming from.

 

[Cackalacky]

Do they teleport there an back? And if you have 100 Muslims ducking out at the same time you don't see how this creates a significant operations management issue?

If I'm covering for this co-worker every f-ing day for probably 20 minutes I really don't give two craps what his deal is - I'm progressively increasing my anger level and it is going to boil over at some point. I'm doing the math of an hour and a half per week, close to two full weeks of pay that I am picking up for nuttin. That stuff will grind away at folks. Trying to claim it isn't a hardship is f-ing ridiculous.

I am only asking questions. I have no opinion on this right now without more facts. But:

1. Obviously not. They probably have a room or such place they go to.
2. There are 53 people involved. We don't know the circumstances of their jobs or whether they are required to be present 100% of the time. I agree it could given certain circumstances, or it could be no bigger deal than covering for someone on bathroom break which the Muslim co-workers could easily reciprocate to other employees.
3. Maybe its me but I had no problem covering for someone when they needed me to cover for them as they could easily cover for me as I needed. Its some level of teamwork and solidarity. Obviously if you don't care about your co-workers, it will obviously matter to a time- watching clock puncher.
4. No one is claiming it is not a hardship, but is it such a situation that can't be rectified? And we do not know why the policy was changed, though I am inclined to believe it was complaints from other non-muslim workers.

 

[RDU Irish]

I am only asking questions. I have no opinion on this right now without more facts. But:

1. Obviously not. They probably have a room or such place they go to.
2. There are 53 people involved. We don't know the circumstances of their jobs or whether they are required to be present 100% of the time. I agree it could given certain circumstances, or it could be no bigger deal than covering for someone on bathroom break which the Muslim co-workers could easily reciprocate to other employees.
3. Maybe its me but I had no problem covering for someone when they needed me to cover for them as they could easily cover for me as I needed. Its some level of teamwork and solidarity. Obviously if you don't care about your co-workers, it will obviously matter to a time- watching clock puncher.
4. No one is claiming it is not a hardship, but is it such a situation that can't be rectified? And we do not know why the policy was changed, though I am inclined to believe it was complaints from other non-muslim workers.

Pair Muslims with enlarged prostate old men bordering on incontinent, problem solved! How do you handle that exactly when you cannot ask someone's religion or health during hiring? If you are incontinent to the point of being unable to man your post reliably, I have a hard time seeing a case for wrongful termination if you were let go?

This is a problem of critical mass. Like mentioned before, now you have to classify employees by religion so you do not have too many Muslims working together since they cannot cover each other during prayer break. What happens if your workforce is progressively more Muslim (which is a logical result of, all else equal, one class getting more break time than another)?

 

[dad4aa]

Without reading through all of these, my question is this...if a Muslim is a professional athlete and the "prayer time" is during a game, does he quit playing to pray? If he is a doctor in the middle of surgery, does he step out of OR to pray? If he is a cop in high speed pursuit, does he pull over to pray? If the answer is no then I am fine with the ruling. This may be too simple but the point is you cannot say it is a problem for Muslim's in one job but not in another.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Prayer breaks are presumptively a right unless there's some reason they cause an undue burden.

As is the company's right to not have their efficiency affected. In which case, the company can probably easily show that the request is creating an undue burden on the utilization of the workforce. If no common ground can be reached, and the company has offered up solutions deemed not acceptable by the affected employees, then the company has every right to run their business.

The bigger question I guess is this: Are we talking about a very small number of Muslim employees or are we discussing a large number? The article states 2100 employees total. If it were less than 1% of the work force then simply going to a rotational break could possibly work.... even if the 99% not affected have issues with a rotating break. They too have a right to be heard in this. If we are talking 5% or higher, then that easily constitutes an undue burden on the company's ability to maintain utilization and efficiency.

As to religious freedom and a violation of it, the company is stating they have no issue with any religion, have made reasonable accommodations with such things as prayer rooms, etc. They aren't telling the employees they can't practice religion. They are simply stating that if they practice religion and it places an undue burden on the ability of the company to operate, then they have a choice at that point to either work there given the requirements of the job or go somewhere else that allows them the opportunity to pray at the times their faith requires.

We had an employee who converted to SDA after being employed. He refused to work on Saturdays. The company informed him that he was free to apply for other positions available at the time, but that until he actually was reassigned based on available job openings he was qualified for, he had to work Saturdays. He refused and was fired for attendance. He sued on grounds of religious discrimination and he lost.

 

[RDU Irish]

Without reading through all of these, my question is this...if a Muslim is a professional athlete and the "prayer time" is during a game, does he quit playing to pray? If he is a doctor in the middle of surgery, does he step out of OR to pray? If he is a cop in high speed pursuit, does he pull over to pray? If the answer is no then I am fine with the ruling. This may be too simple but the point is you cannot say it is a problem for Muslim's in one job but not in another.

BINGO!

On the other hand, why not mount all Middle Eastern war maneuvers during prayer time! They would be completely defenseless!

 

[no.1IrishFan]

People get multiple breaks? I only ate lunch once last week during 4-12hr shifts. Smoke breaks? Prayer breaks? LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

 

[RDU Irish]

People get multiple breaks? I only ate lunch once last week during 4-12hr shifts. Smoke breaks? Prayer breaks? LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

When they called home to complain - their relatives asked "what is a manufacturing job" and were concerned their bosses would behead them in public for defying them.

I look at the time my wife puts as a Nurse Practitioner and really appreciate what No.1 says above. 14 hours without stopping to pee and then this.

 

[Cackalacky]

As is the company's right to not have their efficiency affected. In which case, the company can probably easily show that the request is creating an undue burden on the utilization of the workforce. If no common ground can be reached, and the company has offered up solutions deemed not acceptable by the affected employees, then the company has every right to run their business.

The bigger question I guess is this: Are we talking about a very small number of Muslim employees or are we discussing a large number? The article states 2100 employees total. If it were less than 1% of the work force then simply going to a rotational break could possibly work.... even if the 99% not affected have issues with a rotating break. They too have a right to be heard in this. If we are talking 5% or higher, then that easily constitutes an undue burden on the company's ability to maintain utilization and efficiency.

As to religious freedom and a violation of it, the company is stating they have no issue with any religion, have made reasonable accommodations with such things as prayer rooms, etc. They aren't telling the employees they can't practice religion. They are simply stating that if they practice religion and it places an undue burden on the ability of the company to operate, then they have a choice at that point to either work there given the requirements of the job or go somewhere else that allows them the opportunity to pray at the times their faith requires.

We had an employee who converted to SDA after being employed. He refused to work on Saturdays. The company informed him that he was free to apply for other positions available at the time, but that until he actually was reassigned based on available job openings he was qualified for, he had to work Saturdays. He refused and was fired for attendance. He sued on grounds of religious discrimination and he lost.

Is that an actual right?

 

[IrishLion]

Is this kind of like, "you have freedom of speech, but not freedom from repercussions for what you say"?

Like, "you have freedom of religion, but not the freedom to disrupt the workplace and burden your coworkers with your religion"?

 

[T Town Tommy]

Is that an actual right?

The law states they have a right to maintain operational efficiency. If this issue is causing them problems with trying to achieve that, then yes... it is creating an undue burden on their ability to try and maintain some form of operational efficiency. On the flip side, if they accommodate every form of "freedom" and their ability to compete diminishes, then prayer time will be needed by all because they are unemployed.

 

[RDU Irish]

My religion I just started states that I must wipe feces on people who disagree with me. Anyone have a problem with that?

 

[Irish#1]

1) The company is being prejudiced against their muslim workers by not letting them utilize their breaks during designed prayer times. The employer should be open to letting their muslim employees move their break times to the times designated for prayer.
2) The muslim workers are being unfair to their employer by not using their break times at the designated times for prayer. They cant have it both ways, both wanting the designated breaks, and additional breaks for prayer.

Without really knowing the manufacturing operation and how dependent they are on the Muslim employees when they leave to pray (loss of productivity), I would guess they may be able to accommodate the specific prayer times and consider them their two breaks.

However, I haven't seen anyone answer my question on the length of prayer time. How long does this take? Are they required to pray for a specific amount of time? Are they required to say specific prayers? Does it take more than 15 minutes each time? If so, we're outside of the federal law requiring 15 minutes per.

From personal experience I can tell you these are never cut and dry regardless of the law and precendent. Not quite the same, but years ago, I had an employee (computer operator) running his own business on the mainframe (yes, ,that long ago, lol). When he was hired he signed an employee manual stating he read and understood the contents which clearly stated the company computer could not be used for personal business and termination could result. He was terminated after a couple of warnings. He filed for unemployment which we denied since he was terminated with just cause. He filed a grievance and won even though he signed the manual and had a copy. Their reasoning was that while he had signed the manual, it was more than six months ago and we should have posted the manual in the break room. Go figure.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Ariens Co. defends prayer policy for Muslim employees | News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | WLUK

CEO Dan Ariens says Muslim employees left work Thursday after the company said it was going to start enforcing its break policy.

"Everyone is still, as we consider, an employee of Ariens Company - of these 53 affected employees," said Ariens.

He said the employees were taking unscheduled breaks to pray, which impacted the company's work flow.

"Let's say I'm on an assembly line with 10 people, and two of those people take an unscheduled break. Everything stops. Those two people might be using five minutes but the other eight are standing there waiting for those five minutes," Ariens explained.

He says non-Muslim employees raised concerns about fairness.

The company says employees can pray during their two scheduled breaks.

On Monday night, eight of the Muslim employees met with the Council on American Islamic Relations in Minneapolis.

The Executive Director of the group, Jaylani Hussein, says employees want to have more talks with company so all their needs are met.

"Maybe switch the schedules so that the breaks are actually in line to keep the majority of the people," he said.

"Muslims pray five times a day and the times are determine by the sun's rotation," explained Khurram Ahmad, president of the Muslim mosque in Oshkosh.

"To my knowledge, Ariens has gone above to accommodate the needs. It is also important that the employed respect that part and look for room within what the rule allows for and try to accommodate that," Ahmad said.

 

[Ndaccountant]

My religion I just started states that I must wipe feces on people who disagree with me. Anyone have a problem with that?

You are just trying to orchestrate a smear campaign on this issue and frankly, it stinks.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

You are just trying to orchestrate a smear campaign on this issue and frankly, it stinks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Seems to me the Muslim work force has steadily increased to the point that accommodating workers ducking out for prayer while their sucker co-workers pick up the slack just doesn't work anymore. You better be bringing me a pork sandwich for lunch every day if you want me to pick up a full hour per week of your work. I imagine the plant grinds close to a halt over prayer times and it has progressively gotten worse until they finally had to address it. You think blue collar non-Muslims workers won't harbor some animosity over this? You end up with an increasingly Muslim work force as the Billy Bobs say screw it and the Akmeds recruit their friends to this Valhalla.

And then they have this moving target "schedule" - logistical nightmare - and I bet you don't have to deal with if you ship your jobs to Mexico. To quote the South Park Mormon episode "Dumb da dum dumb dumb"

How much you wanna bet these guys follow this like a Swiss watch on the weekends? And you wonder why there is zero manufacturing in the Middle East.

I'm not tip toeing around this one - F- these guys. You think a Muslim surgeon is putting down the scalpel in the middle of an operation to go pray? Get to work and deal with a few fewer virgins in the after life. I view this in the same light as the Jewish doctors who take off Christmas AND a bunch of Jewish holidays. Why wouldn't they pick up the Christian holidays? Oh, because no matter what and where, people will exploit situations to slack off every damn chance they get.

Muslim cops so lets rob the bank at prayer time. Muslim restaurant - no service at prayer times? Muslim pilot - who's flying this thing at prayer time? How many gas stations shut down for prayer time? Give me a freaking break (pun intended).

You make some great points with those examples.

I work with a Muslim doc. Can't say I have ever seen/heard him bailing on a patient to go pray. At some point, you just need to do your job.

 

[Cackalacky]

The law states they have a right to maintain operational efficiency. If this issue is causing them problems with trying to achieve that, then yes... it is creating an undue burden on their ability to try and maintain some form of operational efficiency. On the flip side, if they accommodate every form of "freedom" and their ability to compete diminishes, then prayer time will be needed by all because they are unemployed.

What Law(s)? I understand it that a corporation, while enjoying legal protections, does not have the right to infringe on constitutionally granted rights of persons held individually or as a group.

I am honestly asking this with no pretense. I don't understand how a corporation s efficiency is paramount to its employees constitutional rights.

 

[Irish#1]

What Law(s)? I understand it that a corporation, while enjoying legal protections, does not have the right to infringe on constitutionally granted rights of persons held individually or as a group.

I am honestly asking this with no pretense. I don't understand how a corporation s efficiency is paramount to its employees constitutional rights.

A person doesn't have the right to work for a company. They are offered employment which in most states can be terminated at any time (employment at will). Company rules are usually provided in the employee manual on the first day of employment. If you have specific needs due to your religious beliefs, perhaps you should mention them during the interview process?

If prayer times are governed by the sun, then the prayer times will change all the time. I can see this causing problems.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Religion and governement, and religion and business are always going to be in tension. The usual standard has been that the law or rule has to be neutral on its face and non-discriminatory in intent.

If a company says, "This is our work schedule, take it or leave it," that has been constitutional for most of American history in most contexts.

 

[Cackalacky]

A person doesn't have the right to work for a company. They are offered employment which in most states can be terminated at any time (employment at will). Company rules are usually provided in the employee manual on the first day of employment. If you have specific needs due to your religious beliefs, perhaps you should mention them during the interview process?

If prayer times are governed by the sun, then the prayer times will change all the time. I can see this causing problems.

Certainly no one has a right to work for a certain company. But no entity or employer can infringe on your personal constitutional first amendment rights, correct? Obviously with the exception of undue hardships.

Federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act) and the laws of most states prohibit employers from engaging in religious discrimination: making job decisions based on an employee’s or applicant’s religion or lack of religious beliefs. Title VII also prohibits workplace harassment on the basis of religion. And, Title VII requires employers to accommodate an employee’s religious beliefs or practices, as long as it doesn’t create an undue hardship.

 

[Ndaccountant]

What I have not seen mentioned here is that Ariens offered to move the employees to different shifts to better accommodate their prayer needs. Based on the schedule above, it looks to me that 3rd shift would be that time period. If the impacted employees were not interested in disrupting their life to take that shift, how could they ask the company to disrupt their workplace to accommodate their needs?