IE HOF Poll: Manti Te'o

[tussin]

But the problem is the title: Notre Dame Man. That is representative relative to the university as a whole, not just the football team.

If it was Notre Dame Football Man, then I see it being more selective based strongly on on field accomplishments on top of off field performance.

The point is it's a hall of fame vote. IMO, it measures performance on the field, but can be skewed by extenuating circumstances off the field (like the baseball HOF). You can take the title to mean what you want, but the goal is to use it as a HOF indicator.

Let the votes speak for themselves, no one should be telling someone else how to vote. People disagree all the time -- it's good to have debate on the internet. Not sure why so many people are twisted on the Manti vote, the guy has 95% right now.

 

[GowerND11]

It's "Notre Dame Man" because it has to fit after their name in the title of their profile thread. We're really voting on "IE's NDFB Hall of Fame" here, but that's doesn't fit. As I argued on the last page, if athletic achievement on the football field isn't the overriding criterion here, this board isn't competent to vote on it.

This is true. Which is why there should be objective measurables as the criteria for induction, weighted to reflect that. Very hard to do on a forum, I know, but I think that would lead to best possible results.

BTW, I agree that the on field achievements should matter most, but I know how some people can be on this board. Reps.

 

[gkIrish]

But the problem is the title: Notre Dame Man. That is representative relative to the university as a whole, not just the football team.

If it was Notre Dame Football Man, then I see it being more selective based strongly on on field accomplishments on top of off field performance.

These are student athletes. They are on national television every single week. They "represent" us on and off the field. Therefore I think their on field performance is very relevant. Manti getting all these awards was very important to the school. It gave him a chance to talk about ND and promote the University. So I think it's all relevant.

 

[GowerND11]

These are student athletes. They are on national television every single week. They "represent" us on and off the field. Therefore I think their on field performance is very relevant. Manti getting all these awards was very important to the school. It gave him a chance to talk about ND and promote the University. So I think it's all relevant.

I absolutely agree. My main concern is that mainly others may construe the meaning. I put a high value on the off field performance because character is important. However, I also understand that football is why we are voting for these guys. So on field performance is the trump card so to speak.

 

[palinurus]

I think the vote should be public; if a poster wants to defend his vote, great. If not, fine. In any event, (a) disagreements about the vote should not be personal; (b) "no" votes should not be viewed AS personal against IE or UND. This is a fan page discussion about an internal award, not an assessment of the verification process of Iranian disarmament or an attack on the virtue of the women in our lives.

As to the subject at hand, I think post-graduation behavior should be fair game as a consideration factor, but, personally, I'd be a bit more sanguine about a 22 year old acting a little assholish (the party event), and the whole catfishing thing really, to me, was sad thing spun out of the control of an unsophisticated kid, who really meant no harm, in any event. Which is why I voted "yes".

 

[Voltaire]

That's not remotely close to the best case scenario. You've imputed malice to Te'o's actions at every step, only stopping short of claiming that he lied to reporters with the explicit intent of promoting his Heisman campaign.

You know how I know that's bullsh!t? Because Swarbrick dove deep into the evidence and came out convinced that Manti was a victim here. And then he stuck his neck out for Manti as a result. If any of the above was remotely true, Swarbrick and ND would have reacted very differently.

Jack saying that Manti was the victim of fraud, which I believe, is in no way mutually exclusive from the four points I laid out being true. There is zero question, based on Manti's own public statements, that he knowingly misrepresented the nature and depth of his relationship with Lennay.

 

[fightingirish26]

So is this Notre Dame Man thing going to be solely for the title of the player threads? Or is somebody going to make a "hall of fame" thread with the players we vote in continually added to the OP? I would like the hall of fame thread personally, it's more consolidated and we can add older players without threads. I apologize if this was already posted elsewhere

 

[gkIrish]

Someone needs to get the Tommy Rees debate resurrected. I just want to watch the world burn.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Jack saying that Manti was the victim of fraud, which I believe, is in no way mutually exclusive from the four points I laid out being true. There is zero question, based on Manti's own public statements, that he knowingly misrepresented the nature and depth of his relationship with Lennay.

Jack and the University sticking their collective necks out for Te'o's integrity is mutually exclusive from the case you've laid out. Had they come away from their fact finding expedition convinced of what you believe happened, there's no way they make the sorts of public statements they did.

And fibbing to your dad about an online relationship you're embarrassed about is light years away from lying to a journalist with the motive of promoting one's Heisman campaign.

 

[NDohio]

So is this Notre Dame Man thing going to be solely for the title of the player threads? Or is somebody going to make a "hall of fame" thread with the players we vote in continually added to the OP? I would like the hall of fame thread personally, it's more consolidated and we can add older players without threads. I apologize if this was already posted elsewhere

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/283550-ies-hall-notre-dame-men.html

 

[koonja]

What's done is done are you guys going to invest or not?

 

[fightingirish26]

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/283550-ies-hall-notre-dame-men.html

cool

 

[beryirish]

Teo was a 5 star that skipped over USC on his way to the midwest, started for 3 years, decided to come back and graduate, led us to a national title game, bringing legitimacy to our program for the first time in 20+ years, and hit like a truck. ND man.

FIFY

 

[ulukinatme]

My whole beef with the performance on the field metric is how do you judge one player over another? Jaylon was a beast, won multiple performance awards, we may never see another linebacker as good as him. How do you compare him to a guy that isn't as athletically gifted and gives just as much effort? I'm not saying give the award to a 3rd stringer that never saw the field. The problem is there's a precedent already set for "Notre Dame Man" by people both off IE and on IE. Off IE people have given that title to people like Father Hesburgh, Danny Spond, TJ Jones, etc. On IE we've given it to players like Manti, Tommy Rees, Mathias Farley, players that either overcame some hardship or were the ultimate team player.

Perhaps the award should be called something else if we're focusing on the field performance now.

 

[Irish YJ]

So your reasoning is...Manti was a victim of fraud and therefore is now a bad person. That and some baseless rumors. Got it.

I would have left out the hoax part, and used the asshole argument (if he really did charge chicks for pics)...

 

[tussin]

My whole beef with the performance on the field metric is how do you judge one player over another? Jaylon was a beast, won multiple performance awards, we may never see another linebacker as good as him. How do you compare him to a guy that isn't as athletically gifted and gives just as much effort? I'm not saying give the award to a 3rd stringer that never saw the field. The problem is there's a precedent already set for "Notre Dame Man" by people both off IE and on IE. Off IE people have given that title to people like Father Hesburgh, Danny Spond, TJ Jones, etc. On IE we've given it to players like Manti, Tommy Rees, Mathias Farley, players that either overcame some hardship or were the ultimate team player.

I thought we were revoting on everyone?

I personally would not vote "Yes" for any of your examples as their performance on the field wasn't good enough.

 

[gkIrish]

My whole beef with the performance on the field metric is how do you judge one player over another? Jaylon was a beast, won multiple performance awards, we may never see another linebacker as good as him. How do you compare him to a guy that isn't as athletically gifted and gives just as much effort? I'm not saying give the award to a 3rd stringer that never saw the field. The problem is there's a precedent already set for "Notre Dame Man" by people both off IE and on IE. Off IE people have given that title to people like Father Hesburgh, Danny Spond, TJ Jones, etc. On IE we've given it to players like Manti, Tommy Rees, Mathias Farley, players that either overcame some hardship or were the ultimate team player.

Perhaps the award should be called something else if we're focusing on the field performance now.

Simply put, the "Notre Dame Man" title in a specific players thread was put there because a mod thought they deserved it. This is why we are voting so it's not just some random thing based on one person's opinion.

 

[pkt77242]

I voted yes.

 

[pkt77242]

Someone needs to get the Tommy Rees debate resurrected. I just want to watch the world burn.

I want to vote Yes for Rees and watch everyone get enraged by it.

 

[Voltaire]

Jack and the University sticking their collective necks out for Te'o's integrity is mutually exclusive from the case you've laid out. Had they come away from their fact finding expedition convinced of what you believe happened, there's no way they make the sorts of public statements they did.

And fibbing to your dad about an online relationship you're embarrassed about is light years away from lying to a journalist with the motive of promoting one's Heisman campaign.

He wasn't just fibbing to his dad, though. Before the hoax was publicly known, Manti himself spoke to the media on the record about the relationship. He had a segment on ESPN College Gameday where he talked about her. He knowingly misrepresented the relationship to the media by withholding the very basic detail that he had never met Lennay. I don't think it was necessarily about the Heisman campaign, but I do think he liked the adulation. That desire for adulation and not being appropriately forthcoming blew up in a very nasty way for the university.

 

[ulukinatme]

I personally would not vote "Yes" for any of your examples as their performance on the field wasn't good enough.

Danny Spond, TJ Jones, Mathias Farley, and Manti weren't good enough on the field? I'm not sure I want to see your qualifications.

 

[palinurus]

These votes should be good for 15 years of debate, 57 bannings, and a lost v-friendship or two. Let's do it.

 

[MNIrishman]

I would have left out the hoax part, and used the asshole argument (if he really did charge chicks for pics)...

That just seems so out of character. The only way I can see that happening is if he's swamped and says something ridiculous like OK guys, I'm done with the cameras; now charging a hundred bucks each here----expecting no one to take him up on it and will leave him alone but then people do. Dude has no need of the money; the only reason he might do that is to get people to leave him alone so he can enjoy himself. That's not a bad thing.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My whole beef with the performance on the field metric is how do you judge one player over another? Jaylon was a beast, won multiple performance awards, we may never see another linebacker as good as him. How do you compare him to a guy that isn't as athletically gifted and gives just as much effort? I'm not saying give the award to a 3rd stringer that never saw the field. The problem is there's a precedent already set for "Notre Dame Man" by people both off IE and on IE. Off IE people have given that title to people like Father Hesburgh, Danny Spond, TJ Jones, etc. On IE we've given it to players like Manti, Tommy Rees, Mathias Farley, players that either overcame some hardship or were the ultimate team player.

Perhaps the award should be called something else if we're focusing on the field performance now.

See gk's post above. One of the main reasons we're doing this is that some have objected to the arbitrary process for designating someone a "Notre Dame Man". So we're trying to do it in a more democratic, open and objective way now. Previous designations are not binding going forward.

He wasn't just fibbing to his dad, though. Before the hoax was publicly known, Manti himself spoke to the media on the record about the relationship. He had a segment on ESPN College Gameday where he talked about her. He knowingly misrepresented the relationship to the media by withholding the very basic detail that he had never met Lennay. I don't think it was necessarily about the Heisman campaign, but I do think he liked the adulation. That desire for adulation and not being appropriately forthcoming blew up in a very nasty way for the university.

Again, this gets back to whether Te'o was driving the publicity behind Kekua in order to valorize himself, or whether the media picked up the story and hounded him about it. He was obviously embarrassed by the nature of relationship, which is why he fibbed to his dad (and later reporters) about having met her.

Jack and other ND bigwigs did a deep dive on the evidence before coming out and vouching for Te'o's integrity. That's good enough for me. You, of course, are free reject that reasoning and impute malice to him instead. But realize that that's your choice to not give him the benefit of the doubt. And, if true, that also places Jack and the University in a very questionable light as well.

 

[tussin]

Danny Spond, TJ Jones, Mathias Farley, and Manti weren't good enough on the field? I'm not sure I want to see your qualifications.

I voted "Yes" for Manti. I was referring to the other names.

IMO, they were not good enough on the field to merit HOF status.

 

[CHIDomer9]

ChiDomer9, come forward and accept your fate

I wouldn’t have such an issue with the hoax if it didn’t accentuate the traits of his personality that I already didn’t like. Manti, while a great player, seemed to be constantly acting for the camera. Its not just him, I feel this way about a lot of athletes (the one that comes to mind right now is JJ Watt). He always seemed to find the camera before it found him.

As for the hoax, to this day it still rubs me the wrong way. When Tom Rinaldi tearjerker specials on SportsCenter are at their best, their main characters are simple folks faced with substantial setbacks. Something happens to them that makes them incredibly sympathetic figures. The Lennay story was made up out of whole cloth. If you believe that Manti was complicit, then he’s just an attention whore. If you believe he was truly duped into believing he was in a serious relationship with someone he had never met, then you have to concede that someone that represented and graduated from your world-renowned university was just not very intelligent or inquisitive.

I also object to the argument that brings Jack Swarbrick’s actions into play. Swarbrick, above all else, is a brand manager. His job is protect the brand that funds the rest of the university, a huge responsibility. His response, claiming that Manti was duped, was the PR option that maintained the shine on the golden dome/helmets and steered the conversation away from his own athletic department’s missteps in properly vetting the story.

 

[Luckylucci]

I wouldn’t have such an issue with the hoax if it didn’t accentuate the traits of his personality that I already didn’t like. Manti, while a great player, seemed to be constantly acting for the camera. Its not just him, I feel this way about a lot of athletes (the one that comes to mind right now is JJ Watt). He always seemed to find the camera before it found him.

As for the hoax, to this day it still rubs me the wrong way. When Tom Rinaldi tearjerker specials on SportsCenter are at their best, their main characters are simple folks faced with substantial setbacks. Something happens to them that makes them incredibly sympathetic figures. The Lennay story was made up out of whole cloth. If you believe that Manti was complicit, then he’s just an attention whore. If you believe he was truly duped into believing he was in a serious relationship with someone he had never met, then you have to concede that someone that represented and graduated from your world-renowned university was just not very intelligent or inquisitive.

I also object to the argument that brings Jack Swarbrick’s actions into play. Swarbrick, above all else, is a brand manager. His job is protect the brand that funds the rest of the university, a huge responsibility. His response, claiming that Manti was duped, was the PR option that maintained the shine on the golden dome/helmets and steered the conversation away from his own athletic department’s missteps in properly vetting the story.

I don't believe that has to mean that all, not even close for that matter. This has nothing to do with intelligence at all. Being naive doesn't make you stupid. It could have to do with not having enough real world experience, that again doesn't make you not intelligent. We're talking about a kid who comes from HA, a very religious family, and is a virgin. Does that make naive, probably but it sure as hell doesn't make him stupid. If there is someone that knows him and they can vouch, yea he wasn't a very smart guy, then maybe. But this is a terrible example.

 

[phork]

Is there any Notre Dame fan in his right mind who would vote "no" on Manti?

arrowryan, CHIDomer9, dudexcore, NDPhilly, nsideirish, SoIll, Voltaire

Those fans.

 

[MNIrishman]

I wouldn’t have such an issue with the hoax if it didn’t accentuate the traits of his personality that I already didn’t like. Manti, while a great player, seemed to be constantly acting for the camera. Its not just him, I feel this way about a lot of athletes (the one that comes to mind right now is JJ Watt). He always seemed to find the camera before it found him.

As for the hoax, to this day it still rubs me the wrong way. When Tom Rinaldi tearjerker specials on SportsCenter are at their best, their main characters are simple folks faced with substantial setbacks. Something happens to them that makes them incredibly sympathetic figures. The Lennay story was made up out of whole cloth. If you believe that Manti was complicit, then he’s just an attention whore. If you believe he was truly duped into believing he was in a serious relationship with someone he had never met, then you have to concede that someone that represented and graduated from your world-renowned university was just not very intelligent or inquisitive.

I also object to the argument that brings Jack Swarbrick’s actions into play. Swarbrick, above all else, is a brand manager. His job is protect the brand that funds the rest of the university, a huge responsibility. His response, claiming that Manti was duped, was the PR option that maintained the shine on the golden dome/helmets and steered the conversation away from his own athletic department’s missteps in properly vetting the story.

If I were willing to dedicate hundreds of hours to tricking you about something without material gain, I bet I could do it. And no one would insult your character as much they would mine.

Regarding the above, why would he feel the need to vet it? No one was taking anything from Manti and Manti wasn't taking anything from anyone else. There was no reason to suspect anything was amiss or that vulnerability existed. The sheer "WTF totally didn't see that coming" factor was a major reason why the story went so viral.

 

[IrishLion]

I encourage everyone to vote according to their own personal beliefs.

We don't need a set criteria. This isn't UND-sanctioned lol. If I think Manti should be in simply because he was a baller, I'll vote that way. If I think he SHOULDN'T be in because of his off-the-field weirdness, I'll vote that way.

If Uluk thinks Tommy Rees is an ND man because he lead the team and played damn good football 90% of the time despite being a physical liability, and did everything he could for the team, going above and beyond his limits? That's coooooool.

Vote however you want, people. If someone calls you on your vote, explain your criteria. Your own personal criteria shouldn't be debatable as long as they are reasonable (and as long as you haven't made an enemy that will debate you no matter what. Be careful, Koon).