IE HOF Poll: Manti Te'o

[koonja]

Field performance is a horrible metric for an award like this. When you search "Notre Dame man" online it typically points to an outstanding member of the community or alumni that goes above and beyond. If we're judging players based on athletic performance, does that mean a Jaylon Smith is more highly regarded than a Mike Anello? One is a freakish athlete, the other was a walk on that gave the same effort but wasn't necessarily as athletic. Jaylon has hundreds more tackles over his career than Mike, but Mike had a lot more to overcome to his success. There are no Butkus awards for Mike Anello, that's the point.

Would you give Onowala the title over Jaylon? By all accounts, same greatness off of the field. Onowala is actually going to be a ND grad though.

 

[Irish Insanity]

So your reasoning is...Manti was a victim of fraud and therefore is now a bad person. That and some baseless rumors. Got it.

Some dont believe he's was a victim. And some that due believe he handed it wrong down the stretch after he found out.

Teo was a 5 star that skipped over USC on his way to the midwest, started for 3 years, decided to come back and graduate, led us to a national title, bringing legitimacy to our program for the first time in 20+ years, and hit like a truck. ND man.

I though that most agree ND man was to include off the field. You seemed to have left that off your description of him.

 

[MNIrishman]

Considering he obviously never met her in person, the idea that she could be fake should've at least been a thought of his.

Again, he was a tremendous player but he was a part of the most embarrassing moments in recent ND history and is the butt of almost all new Notre Dame jokes

The thing that made the deceit so convincing was that there was no obvious motive. "She" never tried to get money out of Manti or use him in any way besides talking to him for hours every night (verified through phone records). I mean, if you had never heard of Manti's story, and got close to someone you met online but hadn't met in person because they lived far away, and they spoke to on the phone for hours about nothing in particular, without asking for anything, would you suspect they weren't real? "Lennay" put tons of effort into convincing Manti and the reason was the person was nuts. It's hard to suspect crazy people because their motives aren't normal motives.

 

[koonja]

Some dont believe he's was a victim. And some that due believe he handed it wrong down the stretch after he found out.

I though let most agree ND man was to include off the field. You seemed to have left that off your description of him.

I think off the field matters, and that's being discussed plenty so no need for me to add to that side. But to discount on the field is ridic IMO.

 

[MNIrishman]

Some dont believe he's was a victim. And some that due believe he handed it wrong down the stretch after he found out.

I though that most agree ND man was to include off the field. You seemed to have left that off your description of him.

Already addressed by my man Whiskey.

 

[gkIrish]

Field performance is a horrible metric for an award like this. When you search "Notre Dame man" online it typically points to an outstanding member of the community or alumni that goes above and beyond. If we're judging players based on athletic performance, does that mean a Jaylon Smith is more highly regarded than a Mike Anello? One is a freakish athlete, the other was a walk on that gave the same effort but wasn't necessarily as athletic. Jaylon has hundreds more tackles over his career than Mike, but Mike had a lot more to overcome to his success. There are no Butkus awards for Mike Anello, that's the point.

If you want to look at it that way that's your right but I personally will be putting a lot of stock into on-the-field performance. I am willing to vote for people who overcome serious obstacles and/or did truly great things off the field but I am typically looking first at on the field performance. Then I will evaluate if off-the-field issues are serious enough to disqualify that candidate. Leadership is also important to me.

 

[GowerND11]

Field performance is a horrible metric for an award like this. When you search "Notre Dame man" online it typically points to an outstanding member of the community or alumni that goes above and beyond. If we're judging players based on athletic performance, does that mean a Jaylon Smith is more highly regarded than a Mike Anello? One is a freakish athlete, the other was a walk on that gave the same effort but wasn't necessarily as athletic. Jaylon has hundreds more tackles over his career than Mike, but Mike had a lot more to overcome to his success. There are no Butkus awards for Mike Anello, that's the point.

Isn't that kind of the problem with this Hall of Notre Dame men? We aren't going to discuss the 3rd string guard from the '77 NC team are we? Doesn't matter what he had done in his time off the field while at ND or what he has done after.

 

[ulukinatme]

Teo was a 5 star that skipped over USC on his way to the midwest, started for 3 years, decided to come back and graduate, led us to a national title, bringing legitimacy to our program for the first time in 20+ years, and hit like a truck. ND man.

More than the hard hitting was the consistency. It's not often you get a player who just doesn't fail like Manti. The only time I remember him having a decidedly bad game was the NC.

Both good points, but I especially like Koon's statement regarding coming back to graduate. I think there should be some special consideration for players that return for their Senior year when they have a clear opportunity to go to the NFL and make money. That's a fairly selfless move to come back and play with your team when you have the opportunity to leave right away and make millions.

 

[koonja]

Both good points, but I especially like Koon's statement regarding coming back to graduate. I think there should be some special consideration for players that return for their Senior year when they have a clear opportunity to go to the NFL and make money. That's a fairly selfless move to come back and play with your team when you have the opportunity to leave right away and make millions.

And abs.

 

[koonja]

And I liked how spiritual Teo was. He decided to come to ND based on prayer (at least the story goes). He was headed to USC but said God led him to ND. Every little thing will piece the puzzle for me.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I would say it's more along the lines of someone thinking a President should have been impeached. Hell, I think all Presidents are American Heroes, but that doesn't mean that it's ridiculous for someone to think Reagan was a bafoon or Clinton should have been impeached. People are entitled to their opinion and many would argue that Teo's "grieving hero" persona is what made him so special, and if they think he fabricated it, then it's totally reasonable to use that as justification. If he lied about the relationship for personal gain, that isn't "unfair expectations" for a high honor. I would argue that for many, it isn't clear that he was simply duped. While you and I agree on that, it simply isn't fair to dismiss anyone that doesn't walk lock step in our beliefs. If they disagree that he lied, then it's their perogative to vote no in a public vote.

I don't think that not voting for Teo would mean that they wouldn't vote for anyone else. Last I checked; Jaylon didn't have a scandal, Martin didn't lie about a fake girlfriend, etc, etc. The three minimum qualifications were set and it's easy to see how there are plenty of current players eligible, and in my opinion, how one could potentially see Teo not meeting standard #2 (character).

I voted yes for Teo... Just a reminder...

Which brings us back to why we need some agreed upon standard here. This is a Notre Dame Football message board, so I'd suggest that the only thing this community is competent to vote on is a standard that includes athletic achievement as a major component; which basically means we have to throw out Standard #2. If not, why limit "Notre Dame Man" to just football players? And as I mentioned above, the vast majority of us have never interacted with these guys personally, so we have no credible basis for trying to pass judgment on them as individuals.

Te'o is the most decorated defensive player in the history of the NCAA, and his leadership played a huge part in our undefeated 2012 season. I'll be the last one to suggest that off-field issues shouldn't affect the voting, but in Te'o's case, it would need to be a big f*cking deal to keep him out of IE's Hall of Fame given his unparalleled athletic achievements. And I don't see how the Kekua Affair can be fairly be said to rise to that level.

I honestly think excellence on the football field should have little or nothing to do with the title. Plenty of great players come through the university, but have they contributed off the field? Have they persevered through challenges to be successful? It's one thing to be a great football player, it's another to be a true team player and do what's best for others than what's best for oneself. These men should be shining examples to their teammates or the university off the field (like a Father Hesburgh), or they should have overcome some hurdles to success (Like a Mike Anello).

See above. If outstanding athletic achievement isn't a requirement, then IE isn't competent to vote on it.

 

[koonja]

We should release one player a week to keep the off season interesting. JMO.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Let's not overreact. A handful of people is not a 'large portion of the fanbase."

Which is why I post here and not over at Rock's House. But Te'o's name is anathema over at ND Nation for a lot of the same (misinformed and/or self-centered) reasons being offered here. And ND Nation is sadly much more influential than IE.

 

[koonja]

Which is why I post here and not over at Rock's House. But Te'o's name is anathema over at ND Nation for a lot of the same (misinformed and/or self-centered) reasons being offered here. And ND Nation is sadly much more influential than IE.

Cause they have Pat.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Cause they have Pat.

Do they?

 

[ulukinatme]

Would you give Onowala the title over Jaylon? By all accounts, same greatness off of the field. Onowala is actually going to be a ND grad though.

Difficult to answer, but short answer I would vote James in before Jaylon. Did Jaylon step up to become a leader on and off the field this year? Tough to say. He's a fantastic player, but the coaches wanted him to be more of a leader, I'm not sure if we saw that.
James is a rather quiet force on the field at times as far as stats go, obviously not quite the athlete that Jaylon is, but good in his own right. He was moved around to a bunch of different positions and always did what was best for the team. He doesn't always have a lot of stats to show for it, but at the same time he was never shown to be a liability. I honestly don't know much about him off the field though, so just on his own merits I don't think I have enough information right now to vote him in, but I probably put him in before Jaylon based on his willingness to play wherever the coaches needed him and the fact he'll be a grad.

 

[koonja]

Do they?

Not that I know of, I think he's a gold helmet member last I heard.

Sent him a PM on IE a week ago but forgot to ask him where else he posts.

 

[NDohio]

Difficult to answer, but short answer I would vote James in before Jaylon. Did Jaylon step up to become a leader on and off the field this year? Tough to say. He's a fantastic player, but the coaches wanted him to be more of a leader, I'm not sure if we saw that.
James is a rather quiet force on the field at times as far as stats go, obviously not quite the athlete that Jaylon is, but good in his own right. He was moved around to a bunch of different positions and always did what was best for the team. He doesn't always have a lot of stats to show for it, but at the same time he was never shown to be a liability. I honestly don't know much about him off the field though, so just on his own merits I don't think I have enough information right now to vote him in, but I probably put him in before Jaylon based on his willingness to play wherever the coaches needed him and the fact he'll be a grad.

So an All-American and the best linebacker in college football, who has had no off-field issues at all, none, not even any rumors, doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame of a college football forum of the team he played for?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So an All-American and the best linebacker in college football, who has had no off-field issues at all, none, not even any rumors, doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame of a college football forum of the team he played for?

Exactly. I can appreciate what ulukin is getting at, but this whole exercise is going to be a laughingstock if we utilize a standard under which Onwualu could be argued in over Jaylon. There needs to be a high objectively verifiable bar of athletic excellence. Once that has narrowed down the candidate pool significantly, then we can weigh things like leadership, off-field issues, etc.

 

[GowerND11]

So an All-American and the best linebacker in college football, who has had no off-field issues at all, none, not even any rumors, doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame of a college football forum of the team he played for?

That's part of the subjectivity of this poll we are doing. Part of the criteria for a lot of people is graduating (Some say graduating on time, others say as long as they graduate even if they come back later). Therefore, James has an edge on that metric.

Exactly. I can appreciate what ulukin is getting at, but this whole exercise is going to be a laughingstock if we utilize a standard under which Onwualu could be argued in over Jaylon. There needs to be a high objectively verifiable bar of athletic excellence. Once that has narrowed down the candidate pool significantly, then we can weigh things like leadership, off-field issues, etc.

I agree there needs to be some hard objective measure to eliminate the subjectivity I mention above.

 

[Voltaire]

I voted no. I completely understand why most people voted yes, and I think that's a reasonable position. For whatever it's worth...

For on-the-field performance, he is obviously more than deserving.

Regarding the Lennay incident, at best you assume he didn't know and was duped until whenever it was reported he told the university about the hoax.

Taking this best case scenario as a given, he still did the following:

1) He knowingly misrepresented the nature and depth of his relationship with this "girlfriend" repeatedly to the press and public at large.
2) He clearly got wrapped up in the story and was using this "death" to enlarge his own personal brand and legend.
3) He consciously decided that for his public story and legend, his grandmother's actual death was not enough. He needed two deaths to satisfy how he wanted to be viewed by the public.
4) The end result of his conscious selfish embellishment was, when it unraveled, significant embarrassment and ill repute for the university, its fans, his teammates, and his coaches. All because of his selfish desire for more adulation.

I don't think it's unreasonably puritanical to say that he failed a basic test of personal integrity that at least in my mind is not representative of what a Notre Dame Man should be. This isn't a case of him occasionally being pompous or an a-hole. Even assuming he was duped, his selfishness and outright lies caused a massively embarrassing episode for the entire university community.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Taking this best case scenario as a given, he still did the following:

1) He knowingly misrepresented the nature and depth of his relationship with this "girlfriend" repeatedly to the press and public at large.
2) He clearly got wrapped up in the story and was using this "death" to enlarge his own personal brand and legend.
3) He consciously decided that for his public story and legend, his grandmother's actual death was not enough. He needed two deaths to satisfy how he wanted to be viewed by the public.
4) The end result of his conscious selfish embellishment was, when it unraveled, significant embarrassment and ill repute for the university, its fans, his teammates, and his coaches. All because of his selfish desire for more adulation.

I don't think it's unreasonably puritanical to say that he failed a basic test of personal integrity that at least in my mind is not representative of what a Notre Dame Man should be. This isn't a case of him occasionally being pompous or an a-hole. Even assuming he was duped, his selfishness and outright lies caused a massively embarrassing episode for the entire university community.

That's not remotely close to the best case scenario. You've imputed malice to Te'o's actions at every step, only stopping short of claiming that he lied to reporters with the explicit intent of promoting his Heisman campaign.

You know how I know that's bullsh!t? Because Swarbrick dove deep into the evidence and came out convinced that Manti was a victim here. And then he stuck his neck out for Manti as a result. If any of the above was remotely true, Swarbrick and ND would have reacted very differently.

 

[NDohio]

That's part of the subjectivity of this poll we are doing. Part of the criteria for a lot of people is graduating (Some say graduating on time, others say as long as they graduate even if they come back later). Therefore, James has an edge on that metric.



I agree there needs to be some hard objective measure to eliminate the subjectivity I mention above.

Yeah, but come one JO vs JS? It should be no contest. Jaylon could be the best pure football player to play at ND in 10+ years and he has had no off the field issues. If he can't beat out James O then we have issues. Even without graduating. It's not like he has ever been rumored of not being a very good student, he isn't graduating because he is a freakishly good football player. And he should be celebrated on a football fan forum.

 

[gkIrish]

Exactly. I can appreciate what ulukin is getting at, but this whole exercise is going to be a laughingstock if we utilize a standard under which Onwualu could be argued in over Jaylon. There needs to be a high objectively verifiable bar of athletic excellence. Once that has narrowed down the candidate pool significantly, then we can weigh things like leadership, off-field issues, etc.

I don't think either guy will get 75% of the vote. And they won't get there because of completely different reasons. James due to lack of on-field excellence and Jaylon due to lack of a degree. And I think that's totally reasonable. I'm hoping only a handful of people get elected. This would truly be a pointless exercise if every graduating senior with no criminal record got elected.

 

[GowerND11]

Yeah, but come one JO vs JS? It should be no contest. Jaylon could be the best pure football player to play at ND in 10+ years and he has had no off the field issues. If he can't beat out James O then we have issues. Even without graduating. It's not like he has ever been rumored of not being a very good student, he isn't graduating because he is a freakishly good football player. And he should be celebrated on a football fan forum.

I strongly agree with you, but like I said people have a lot of varying opinions on here for what a Notre Dame Man is. I think the problem is they can both be worthy, but will they both "get in?"

Like I said early, some back up who didn't really play may be just as worthy as a star Heisman trophy winner because of how he represents(ed) the university, but then falls short because of his playing time/ability. On the flip side, maybe a star player wasn't the nicest guy, smartest, whatever but we may deem him more worthy because he played.

 

[gkIrish]

Yeah, but come one JO vs JS? It should be no contest. Jaylon could be the best pure football player to play at ND in 10+ years and he has had no off the field issues. If he can't beat out James O then we have issues. Even without graduating. It's not like he has ever been rumored of not being a very good student, he isn't graduating because he is a freakishly good football player. And he should be celebrated on a football fan forum.

If forced to vote for one or the other some fans would choose James. But when it comes to the overall vote, Jaylon will have a higher percentage than James. Both can be true and reasonable.

 

[GowerND11]

I don't think either guy will get 75% of the vote. And they won't get there because of completely different reasons. James due to lack of on-field excellence and Jaylon due to lack of a degree. And I think that's totally reasonable. I'm hoping only a handful of people get elected. This would truly be a pointless exercise if every graduating senior with no criminal record got elected.

But the problem is the title: Notre Dame Man. That is representative relative to the university as a whole, not just the football team.

If it was Notre Dame Football Man, then I see it being more selective based strongly on on field accomplishments on top of off field performance.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But the problem is the title: Notre Dame Man. That is representative relative to the university as a whole, not just the football team.

If it was Notre Dame Football Man, then I see it being more selective based strongly on on field accomplishments on top of off field performance.

It's "Notre Dame Man" because it has to fit after their name in the title of their profile thread. We're really voting on "IE's NDFB Hall of Fame" here, but that's doesn't fit. As I argued on the last page, if athletic achievement on the football field isn't the overriding criterion here, this board isn't competent to vote on it.

 

[NDohio]

I don't think either guy will get 75% of the vote. And they won't get there because of completely different reasons. James due to lack of on-field excellence and Jaylon due to lack of a degree. And I think that's totally reasonable. I'm hoping only a handful of people get elected. This would truly be a pointless exercise if every graduating senior with no criminal record got elected.

I strongly agree with you, but like I said people have a lot of varying opinions on here for what a Notre Dame Man is. I think the problem is they can both be worthy, but will they both "get in?"

Like I said early, some back up who didn't really play may be just as worthy as a star Heisman trophy winner because of how he represents(ed) the university, but then falls short because of his playing time/ability. On the flip side, maybe a star player wasn't the nicest guy, smartest, whatever but we may deem him more worthy because he played.

I am way more OK with neither of them getting in as opposed to JO getting in over JS(or equivalent-type players).

I do hope the number of people that get in is fairly low, I just hope on-the-field is a MAJOR reason people vote.

 

[Luckylucci]

JMO but at the top of the site it says Irish Envy Notre Dame Football Forum. So obviously this discussion is going to have a football tilt to it. Part of my criteria is excellence on the football field. For these gentlemen whose gifts are football and not academia, for them to come in, stay in good academic standing, and be on track to graduate. I view that as excellence for that person as well.