How lucky was Florida to be in the title game?

[solo]

Yes, they dominated Ohio State and took the #1 slot in both polls. But they almost didn't get there.

1. They were incredibly lucky to lose when they did. Had they lost to Auburn say the game before the SEC title game, would they have made it back to #2?

2. South Carolina really had Florida beat. They had the game winning TD called back, then missed a last second game winning fieldgoal. They should have handed the Gators their second loss. The Gamecocks lost that game rather than the Gators winning it.

3. If Louisville holds on to beat Rutgers (they blew a huge lead then ended up losing on a last second FG), Florida never gets a chance to play Ohio State. The Title game would have been OSU-Louisville and the national champion Florida Gators would have been a bubble team in on our 2 team playoff.

4. Had the Michigan-Ohio State game been 2 weeks later, Michigan might not have dropped to #3.

The stars somewhat aligned for the Gators. Not that they weren't worthy, just that they were a tad lucky to be there.

 

[RI Domer]

Don't forget that Arkansas fumbled a kick return on the 2 yard line at the end of that game to give the Gators the best possible field position.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Don't forget that Arkansas fumbled a kick return on the 2 yard line at the end of that game to give the Gators the best possible field position.

Wasn't it a Punt return in the 3rd Quarter and they scored ON the play (or was their another fumble late in the game as I turned that game off)

As for the Gators..LUCK!!!

Any team that gets in with a loss got Lucky....
But the time they lost really wouldn't have mattered....There have been teams that lost their final regular season game (or Championship game) and still got into the National Championship...

You are forgetting where UF would have been ranked if they were undefeated going into that game, losing a game without giving up an offensive TD the last game of the year they could have and likely would have still been in the NC game...

As for the other stuff, they won their games, the other teams didn't, and Michigan would not have ended ahead of UF , as UF had the tougher schedule with the same record

 

[solo]

Wasn't it a Punt return in the 3rd Quarter and they scored ON the play (or was their another fumble late in the game as I turned that game off)

As for the Gators..LUCK!!!

Any team that gets in with a loss got Lucky....
But the time they lost really wouldn't have mattered....There have been teams that lost their final regular season game (or Championship game) and still got into the National Championship...

You are forgetting where UF would have been ranked if they were undefeated going into that game, losing a game without giving up an offensive TD the last game of the year they could have and likely would have still been in the NC game...

As for the other stuff, they won their games, the other teams didn't, and Michigan would not have ended ahead of UF , as UF had the tougher schedule with the same record

Maybe they would have still been #2, maybe they wouldn't. Neither of us can know for certain as that is not the way things unfolded.

My larger point is that the top 3-4 teams are generally separated by circumstance. Fortunate scheduling, a lucky bounce, a blown call by a ref, a missed field goal. It's not like the top 2 teams truly had the best seasons. The top 4 teams generally all had great seasons and numbers one and two just got a few more lucky breaks.

 

[SillyIrish]

The USC loss to UCLA was huge because if they win that game hello Championship game and National Title. USC has to still be kicking themselves for losing that game.

 

[kjones]

Maybe they would have still been #2, maybe they wouldn't. Neither of us can know for certain as that is not the way things unfolded.

My larger point is that the top 3-4 teams are generally separated by circumstance. Fortunate scheduling, a lucky bounce, a blown call by a ref, a missed field goal. It's not like the top 2 teams truly had the best seasons. The top 4 teams generally all had great seasons and numbers one and two just got a few more lucky breaks.

Why just the top four teams? I'd say most of the top 8 or 10 are usually really close. Not every year, but quite often in most years. Sometimes a team or two seems to rise above, but this is often just smoke. (I'm talking to you tOSU).

 

[noel fighting irish hall]

Gentlemen, I hate to say it, but I feel that our chances of getting Justin Trattou are in jeopardy. He and his father going to look at Florida. I don't think he likes the idea of having to bulk up to play tackle. I HOPE MY GUT FEELING IS WRONG. WE CAN CERTAINLY USE THIS KID. HE LOOKS LIKE A NOTRE DAME KID. When Urban Meyer, Strong, and Matteson get a hold of him, LOOK OUT! THE THOUGHT MAKES ME SICK!!!!

 

[solo]

Why just the top four teams? I'd say most of the top 8 or 10 are usually really close. Not every year, but quite often in most years. Sometimes a team or two seems to rise above, but this is often just smoke. (I'm talking to you tOSU).

I see a definite drop off in most years right around #4 or 5. The top 4 or 5 teams are elite. Top 6-10 are good, but not quite a s good. Often, the #1 team woukd pound the #10 team.

That's why I say stop at the top 4. If you finish top 4 you are the elite. #5 would probably be a signfiicant bubble team, but you gotta draw the line somewhere.

 

[solo]

Gentlemen, I hate to say it, but I feel that our chances of getting Justin Trattou are in jeopardy. He and his father going to look at Florida. I don't think he likes the idea of having to bulk up to play tackle. I HOPE MY GUT FEELING IS WRONG. WE CAN CERTAINLY USE THIS KID. HE LOOKS LIKE A NOTRE DAME KID. When Urban Meyer, Strong, and Matteson get a hold of him, LOOK OUT! THE THOUGHT MAKES ME SICK!!!!

Did you mean to post this under Fighting Irish 9's thread about Trattou visiting Florida? It seems out of place in this thread.

 

[kjones]

I see a definite drop off in most years right around #4 or 5. The top 4 or 5 teams are elite. Top 6-10 are good, but not quite a s good. Often, the #1 team woukd pound the #10 team.

That's why I say stop at the top 4. If you finish top 4 you are the elite. #5 would probably be a signfiicant bubble team, but you gotta draw the line somewhere.

Yeah, you have to draw a line somewhere, but anywhere you draw it , someone is going to be pissed. I just don't see a lot of advantaged to drawing it at 4 over 2. What, in your mind, are the significant advantages of it?


As for Trattou, dude, there's like 5 threads on this, and we aren't really in jeopardy, as you might have known had you read any of the threads (or even his profile). It's nice that you didn't open a new thread, but hijacking solo's thread probably wasn't the best choice either.

 

[solo]

Yeah, you have to draw a line somewhere, but anywhere you draw it , someone is going to be pissed. I just don't see a lot of advantaged to drawing it at 4 over 2. What, in your mind, are the significant advantages of it?


As for Trattou, dude, there's like 5 threads on this, and we aren't really in jeopardy, as you might have known had you read any of the threads (or even his profile). It's nice that you didn't open a new thread, but hijacking solo's thread probably wasn't the best choice either.

The advantage of drawing the line at 4 over 2? First and foremost, this provides a solution for if 3 BCS teams go undefeated as happened in 2004.

Not to mention, it assures that the best teams truly have a chance to win the title. If you finsih the season #5, you simply didn't have a NC calibre year. But often, it is nearly impossible to differentiate between the top 3 or 4 teams. Again, I do see in general a drop off after the top 4 or 5 teams.

Unless you go to a 6 or 8 team format, there will people whining and even still then. But even just opening it up to 4 teams rather than 2 gives us a much better chance of not eliminating a truly deserving team. Again, Florida was very close to being a bubble team this year and they were the best team in the nation. So expanding out 2 more teams in my opinion eliminates just about all doubt that the right teams are in the mix.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

The USC loss to UCLA was huge because if they win that game hello Championship game and National Title. USC has to still be kicking themselves for losing that game.

Yeah, I'm w/ you Silly, the SC loss to UCLA is what I believe opened the door for UF. If SC handles the Bruins, not even Gator fans are protesting the USC/OSU matchup for all the marbles. Everything was assumed going into that game...tickets were being punched for USC to go to Arizona.

Florida did lose a lot of close games & So Carolina definitely were responsible for the Gators getting a 'W' in their matchup. The PR for Arkansas is still kicking himself for fielding that punt inside the 10 only to fumble it in his own endzone for the Gators to recover for an easy 6. The Gators had zero momentum before that play...the Hogs just choked much like the Cocks. Although that fake punt on 4th & forever inside Florida's own territory was arguably the ballsiest call of the year...but then they went 3 and out & the Razorback PR gave them that early Christmas present.

Well they say you make your own luck & just think of all the national champs (incl ND) that have relied on a few good breaks that allowed them to win it all.

 

[solo]

Yeah, I'm w/ you Silly, the SC loss to UCLA is what I believe opened the door for UF. If SC handles the Bruins, not even Gator fans are protesting the USC/OSU matchup for all the marbles. Everything was assumed going into that game...tickets were being punched for USC to go to Arizona.

Florida did lose a lot of close games & So Carolina definitely were responsible for the Gators getting a 'W' in their matchup. The PR for Arkansas is still kicking himself for fielding that punt inside the 10 only to fumble it in his own endzone for the Gators to recover for an easy 6. The Gators had zero momentum before that play...the Hogs just choked much like the Cocks. Although that fake punt on 4th & forever inside Florida's own territory was arguably the ballsiest call of the year...but then they went 3 and out & the Razorback PR gave them that early Christmas present.

Well they say you make your own luck & just think of all the national champs (incl ND) that have relied on a few good breaks that allowed them to win it all.

Yeah...Every NC team catches a few breaks. And usually any team in the title game has caught a few breaks. That's why I hate just picking 2 teams to play for the title. It's not like we are rewarding the 2 best teams that had the 2 best seasons, it's more like we are picking the 2 luckiest teams out of a group of teams that all had great seasons. There really isn't much difference if any between #1 and #4 in many seasons.

That's why I think if the BCS expanded it's matchup to the top 4 squaring off in a 4 team playoff inisde the current BCS Bowl system, it would be a fair compromise and a better solution.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Yeah...Every NC team catches a few breaks. And usually any team in the title game has caught a few breaks. That's why I hate just picking 2 teams to play for the title. It's not like we are rewarding the 2 best teams that had the 2 best seasons, it's more like we are picking the 2 luckiest teams out of a group of teams that all had great seasons. There really isn't much difference if any between #1 and #4 in many seasons.

That's why I think if the BCS expanded it's matchup to the top 4 squaring off in a 4 team playoff inisde the current BCS Bowl system, it would be a fair compromise and a better solution.

Especially this year. No one, not even Gator fan, predicted a blow out of OSU...maybe a victory but no blowout.

 

[kjones]

The advantage of drawing the line at 4 over 2? First and foremost, this provides a solution for if 3 BCS teams go undefeated as happened in 2004.

Not to mention, it assures that the best teams truly have a chance to win the title. If you finsih the season #5, you simply didn't have a NC calibre year. But often, it is nearly impossible to differentiate between the top 3 or 4 teams. Again, I do see in general a drop off after the top 4 or 5 teams.

Unless you go to a 6 or 8 team format, there will people whining and even still then. But even just opening it up to 4 teams rather than 2 gives us a much better chance of not eliminating a truly deserving team. Again, Florida was very close to being a bubble team this year and they were the best team in the nation. So expanding out 2 more teams in my opinion eliminates just about all doubt that the right teams are in the mix.

But what if only 2 teams go undefeated and the other seeded teams are 1-loss and 2-loss and the 2 loss team wins. I don't see how that could ever been seen as a "true" champion, or if it is, then the regular season become a joke. I just honestly think there's just as many, if not more imperfections in a playoff as there are in the current system. Maybe the best would just be to have the BCS bowls and just let the voters decide, as in the good old days. If more than one team is undefeated, then we just go by the voters. That way a 2-loss team can't win it all, and if there are multiple undefeateds, they get voted on. But there's flaws in that system too. Basically, I think we should just stop messing with it, because I feel like the more we tamper with it, the more messed up it's going to get. Every step they take, the commercialization will only get worse, because every door will only open if there's money in it.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

But what if only 2 teams go undefeated and the other seeded teams are 1-loss and 2-loss and the 2 loss team wins. I don't see how that could ever been seen as a "true" champion, or if it is, then the regular season become a joke. I just honestly think there's just as many, if not more imperfections in a playoff as there are in the current system. Maybe the best would just be to have the BCS bowls and just let the voters decide, as in the good old days. If more than one team is undefeated, then we just go by the voters. That way a 2-loss team can't win it all, and if there are multiple undefeateds, they get voted on. But there's flaws in that system too. Basically, I think we should just stop messing with it, because I feel like the more we tamper with it, the more messed up it's going to get. Every step they take, the commercialization will only get worse, because every door will only open if there's money in it.

I'm the last to claim to have a cure all for a playoff vs. BCS, but one thing I hate is the AP poll & the Coaches poll. The AP writers are all frustrated jocks who have axes to grind & when you pull for a team as polarizing as ND, putting the power in the hands of a bunch of desk jockeys isn't going to bode well. The coaches poll is worse, b/c the coaches rarely fill out the poll or if they do they go by highlights on ESPN (they're only human!). And they too have axes to grind. No objectivity. For a perfect example, look at how ND got screwed out of at least a share of the NC in both 1989 & 1993. You can't objectively give the titel to Miami in 1989 for the same reason you don't give it to ND in 1993 & vice versa. ND's situation in those years prove how the writers & coaches contradict themselves.

 

[kjones]

I'm the last to claim to have a cure all for a playoff vs. BCS, but one thing I hate is the AP poll & the Coaches poll. The AP writers are all frustrated jocks who have axes to grind & when you pull for a team as polarizing as ND, putting the power in the hands of a bunch of desk jockeys isn't going to bode well. The coaches poll is a worse, b/c the coaches rarely fill out the poll or if they do they go by highlights on ESPN (they're only human!). And they too have axes to grind. No objectivity. For a perfect example, look at how ND got screwed out of at least a share of the NC in both 1989 & 1993. ND's situation in those years prove how the writers & coaches contradict themselves.

I was just being devil's advocate, showing how you could come up with lots of good reasons for any system, and lots of reason's against any system. I'm not sure if you read my whole post, but at the end i said we should just leave it they way it is, because changes are just going to make things worse, and people find more ways to get money out of it. Every change opens the door for these people, and i guarantee you that they aren't gonna change unless they think they can get more money out of it.

And besides, I don't think there are any truly better alternatives. There might not be any that are worse either, but that's hardly a good reason to change it.

 

[Timugen]

looks like this is starting to meander toward this thread:

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19188

 

[Timugen]

I was just being devil's advocate, showing how you could come up with lots of good reasons for any system, and lots of reason's against any system. I'm not sure if you read my whole post, but at the end i said we should just leave it they way it is, because changes are just going to make things worse, and people find more ways to get money out of it. Every change opens the door for these people, and i guarantee you that they aren't gonna change unless they think they can get more money out of it.

And besides, I don't think there are any truly better alternatives. There might not be any that are worse either, but that's hardly a good reason to change it.

Wow...someone who actually recognizes and accepts this situation for what it is. What exactly are the requirements to classify a new species?

 

[kjones]

Wow...someone who actually recognizes and accepts this situation for what it is. What exactly are the requirements to classify a new species?

Well, I also have a prehensile tail, if that helps...

 

[Timugen]

Well, I also have a prehensile tail, if that helps...

:thumbsup:

 

[IRISHDODGER]

I was just being devil's advocate, showing how you could come up with lots of good reasons for any system, and lots of reason's against any system. I'm not sure if you read my whole post, but at the end i said we should just leave it they way it is, because changes are just going to make things worse, and people find more ways to get money out of it. Every change opens the door for these people, and i guarantee you that they aren't gonna change unless they think they can get more money out of it.

And besides, I don't think there are any truly better alternatives. There might not be any that are worse either, but that's hardly a good reason to change it.

No, I read your entire post & I agree w/ most of what you say. I was a playoff advocate until this year when I realized it could possibly be worse if not the same. Now, I'm clueless as to which system is better b/c you'd have to really overhaul the system to make it close to accurate. They'd probably have to reduce regular season games back to 11 or even 10 & then there'd be the whole bowl dilemma. I do disagree w/ the BCS when they play the "tradition" card regarding bowls. If that were the case, what happened to the tradition of wrapping up all the bowls by January 1st?

Not sure if you read my whole post, but my main point is that the polls should not have as much power as they do based on what I said about the AP writers & the coaches. It's not like college b'ball, where they play a helluva lot more games & can withstand a tough non-conf. schedule b/c their tourney allows for 64 teams. You can bet that college f'ball willl go to the "plus one" in 2010, so I imagine the BCS will evolve w/ baby steps. Unfortunately, for us fans, the powers that be at the universities don't have to answer for their decisions which, like you stated, are based primarily on $$$$$$$$$$$.

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

No, I read your entire post & I agree w/ most of what you say. I was a playoff advocate until this year when I realized it could possibly be worse if not the same. Now, I'm clueless as to which system is better b/c you'd have to really overhaul the system to make it close to accurate. They'd probably have to reduce regular season games back to 11 or even 10 & then there'd be the whole bowl dilemma. I do disagree w/ the BCS when they play the "tradition" card regarding bowls. If that were the case, what happened to the tradition of wrapping up all the bowls by January 1st?

Not sure if you read my whole post, but my main point is that the polls should not have as much power as they do based on what I said about the AP writers & the coaches. It's not like college b'ball, where they play a helluva lot more games & can withstand a tough non-conf. schedule b/c their tourney allows for 64 teams. You can bet that college f'ball willl go to the "plus one" in 2010, so I imagine the BCS will evolve w/ baby steps. Unfortunately, for us fans, the powers that be at the universities don't have to answer for their decisions which, like you stated, are based primarily on $$$$$$$$$$$.

Very well broken down. I just don't go throwing them around, but Reps to you...Well Done.

 

[solo]

No, I read your entire post & I agree w/ most of what you say. I was a playoff advocate until this year when I realized it could possibly be worse if not the same.

This attitude is one that fears change. The BCS has been tweaked nearly every year since it's conception. The goal is to make it better. No change must be permanent. So why fear any change?

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

This attitude is one that fears change. The BCS has been tweaked nearly every year since it's conception. The goal is to make it better. No change must be permanent. So why fear any change?

Because what we have is the greatest sport in all the land....

Why mess with it, a playoff isn't going to give us anything better except some a few more good games....not a huge upside, and when you consider the possible down side of it ruining CFB as we know it....

Week 1 being just as important as week 13...

No thanks

 

[solo]

Because what we have is the greatest sport in all the land....

Why mess with it, a playoff isn't going to give us anything better except some a few more good games....not a huge upside, and when you consider the possible down side of it ruining CFB as we know it....

Week 1 being just as important as week 13...

No thanks

This post shows that you don't understand college football. Week 1 and week 13 are NOT equally important. Lose in week 1, win the rest...you are probably in the title game.

Win week 1, lose week 13...your are probably NOT in the title game.

When you lose is almost as important as whom you lose to.

And you fail to address the fact that NO CHANGE NEED BE PERMANENT. So how would a playoff ruin college football? If it isn't as good or better, you can always switch back.

 

[KissMeI'mIrish121984]

Yes, they dominated Ohio State and took the #1 slot in both polls. But they almost didn't get there.

1. They were incredibly lucky to lose when they did. Had they lost to Auburn say the game before the SEC title game, would they have made it back to #2?

2. South Carolina really had Florida beat. They had the game winning TD called back, then missed a last second game winning fieldgoal. They should have handed the Gators their second loss. The Gamecocks lost that game rather than the Gators winning it.

3. If Louisville holds on to beat Rutgers (they blew a huge lead then ended up losing on a last second FG), Florida never gets a chance to play Ohio State. The Title game would have been OSU-Louisville and the national champion Florida Gators would have been a bubble team in on our 2 team playoff.

4. Had the Michigan-Ohio State game been 2 weeks later, Michigan might not have dropped to #3.

The stars somewhat aligned for the Gators. Not that they weren't worthy, just that they were a tad lucky to be there.

The stars somewhat aligned? are you serious? Everyone knows they got lucky!

 

[KissMeI'mIrish121984]

Yes, they dominated Ohio State and took the #1 slot in both polls. But they almost didn't get there.

1. They were incredibly lucky to lose when they did. Had they lost to Auburn say the game before the SEC title game, would they have made it back to #2?

2. South Carolina really had Florida beat. They had the game winning TD called back, then missed a last second game winning fieldgoal. They should have handed the Gators their second loss. The Gamecocks lost that game rather than the Gators winning it.

3. If Louisville holds on to beat Rutgers (they blew a huge lead then ended up losing on a last second FG), Florida never gets a chance to play Ohio State. The Title game would have been OSU-Louisville and the national champion Florida Gators would have been a bubble team in on our 2 team playoff.

4. Had the Michigan-Ohio State game been 2 weeks later, Michigan might not have dropped to #3.

The stars somewhat aligned for the Gators. Not that they weren't worthy, just that they were a tad lucky to be there.

The stars somewhat aligned? are you serious? Everyone knows they got lucky!
And you're right about the Mich/OSU game, had it been two weeks later, Michigan may not have dropped to third in the BCS standings.

Does anyone other than me find the whole BCS thing a bit played out? I'm starting to think a tournament style postseason may not be such a bad thing after all, the BCS game was created to avoid controversy, and all it did was stir up more!

 

[IRISHDODGER]

This post shows that you don't understand college football. Week 1 and week 13 are NOT equally important. Lose in week 1, win the rest...you are probably in the title game.

Win week 1, lose week 13...your are probably NOT in the title game.

When you lose is almost as important as whom you lose to.

And you fail to address the fact that NO CHANGE NEED BE PERMANENT. So how would a playoff ruin college football? If it isn't as good or better, you can always switch back.

You fail to take into account that it depends on how the voters punish/reward you for losing in week 1 or week 13. Look at Oklahoma, they were blown out in their Big 12 champion game yet still got to play for all the marbles. Not to beat a deadhorse, but that's still my point: the voters have all the power & they're not worthy b/c they're like a bunch of gossipy little women who passive-aggressively use their vote to exact revenge on the teams they hate (read: are jealous of).

Contrary to your statement, I'm all for change if it gets us closer to a fairly crowned champ. I'm just not going to pretend that I have the end-all, be-all answer. If I had a nickel for every fan on the internet or radio who has the "perfect solution" for a playoff, I could pay the winning payout to the teams in my own national championship game.

 

[kjones]

This post shows that you don't understand college football. Week 1 and week 13 are NOT equally important. Lose in week 1, win the rest...you are probably in the title game.

Win week 1, lose week 13...your are probably NOT in the title game.

When you lose is almost as important as whom you lose to.

And you fail to address the fact that NO CHANGE NEED BE PERMANENT. So how would a playoff ruin college football? If it isn't as good or better, you can always switch back.

First of all, you can't change back easily, just as you can't change to begin with easily. People have a ton of money invested in CFB, and they aren't gonna change unless they think they can get more money out. The fallacy I think you are under is that the people in charge are trying to find what is best for the game. They aren't. They'll change if there's money in it for the schools, sponsors, bowls, cities, whatever, and if they are making more money, the sure as hell won't change back because fans think it cheapens the season.

There's a difference between being cautious and fearing change. To fear change is to fear it for it's own sake, just because it's a change. To be cautious is to weigh options, to discuss, to make sure you don't do something that you will regret. It's really an insult to our intelligence to say we are "fearing" change. In fact, there are lots of good reason why some changes would be bad. Does tweaking occur? Yes. Is it change? Yes. Is it anywhere remotely connected to the kind of change we are discussing here? No. Not even close. This kind of change is a major deal, and since there are MANY potential downsides, being cautious is NOT a fear of change.

Oh, and Dodger, I did agree with you about the power/bias of the AP/Coaches poll. Right on man. They need to crack down on that and make sure people don't make a mockery of it as a few did this year.