2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Bluto]

One of the funniest things I've seen was a few years back when a female GOP staffer told my buddy (who's Jewish and has worked on some big time GOP campaigns) she was pro Israel but it needs to be destroyed so Jesus can return. Spit out my drink on that one.

 

[phgreek]

https://youtu.be/rHmBZGt48eM

I could never vote for such a heartless SOB as Hillary. My ultra liberal friend never would believe me that Hillary was lying about the Benghazi attacks and the video they blamed it on. My exact quote was, "anyone that can lie in front of the four flag draped caskets as she did has not heart or soul." I also heard one of the Father's of these men speak on a San Diego radio station about the lies they were telling the families and how appalled he was about the treatment they received.

Go to approx. min 6 of the video to see one of the many reasons I as many Americans despise this woman.

...I'm with you. But I think we better get used to the fact that this nation is about to buy her, and we'll have her for 8 years.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

2008: Obama has no experience and his religious views are questionable! You'd be foolish to elect him!

2015: Yo that Ben Carson is one fine man. What a guy!



You know I fell down a wikipedia hole the other day and was reading the quotes in question and, well, this..

"Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that, y'all. Not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people that we have wounded don't have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that."

...sounds an awful lot like this:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KuX73Ixqtbg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I was honestly struck by how not insane his comment was. It has been seven years since that controversy and
had forgotten most of it and was expecting something more controversial.

Another one that caught attention:

"[The United States] government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to undo Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."

I mean that's not totally nuts either. We love to jack ourselves off about being the home of the brave and the land of the free, but reality is that we were a very racist country from the very beginning and there has been a lot of pain and suffering in undoing that.

"The government lied about Pearl Harbor too. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie."

"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie."

I think that's generally all true. Obviously the LAPD bit didn't happen but nothing here is egregious.

"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing "God Bless America". No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent."

I mean that's not the worst thing I've ever heard. He goes overboard on the god damn America theatrics but boy I really remembered him being an evil dude in 2008. I guess Fox News and AM radio can really put the glasses on ya.



Is anything quoted there really that extreme? If we collectively unbunch the panties over the god damn America part and it's a solid anti-government rant plenty of conservatives could have written themselves if they were being honest about many of the dark parts of US history.

I think the part about sweeping it under the rug was that Obama was just there for the political affiliation. That's a practice that goes back to George Washington showing up for Anglican services and not taking communion. Jefferson did the same despite not being Christian. I imagine guys like Franklin and Madison did the same too.

Ben Carson actually believes that the Earth is thousands of years old. That's...weird. Obama being a politician isn't weird.

You wanna defend Wright, go ahead. Be my guest. You think he has merit, I think he's a sick, hateful man who got his "reverand" card out of a cereal box.

Carson believing the earth is 6000 years old is nowhere near Obama sitting in Wright's "church" for 20 years.

 

[GoIrish41]

You know what would sink Hillary? If she publicly proclaimed that the world is 6000 years old and that Obamacare is the worst thing since slavery or any of the other crazy shit Carson has said.

 

[woolybug25]

You wanna defend Wright, go ahead. Be my guest. You think he has merit, I think he's a sick, hateful man who got his "reverand" card out of a cereal box.

Carson believing the earth is 6000 years old is nowhere near Obama sitting in Wright's "church" for 20 years.

I feel like you just glazed over what he wrote and then replied with the easiest brush off you could think of....

 

[Irish#1]

I just stopped in for a cup of coffee and see who sounded the silliest. Check please.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You know what would sink Hillary? If she publicly proclaimed that the world is 6000 years old and that Obamacare is the worst thing since slavery or any of the other crazy shit Carson has said.

Or she'd win over conservatives and independents. Who knows?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I feel like you just glazed over what he wrote and then replied with the easiest brush off you could think of....

You only think that because it's exactly what he did.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I feel like you just glazed over what he wrote and then replied with the easiest brush off you could think of....

I read everything he wrote, but wasn't interested in a Ron Paul/ foreign policy/ 9/11 discussion. The meat of the argument was the Obama/ Wright story of 2008 and Ben Carson's religious views in this election cycle.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I read everything he wrote, but wasn't interested in a Ron Paul/ foreign policy/ 9/11 discussion. The meat of the argument was the Obama/ Wright story of 2008 and Ben Carson's religious views in this election cycle.

And you didn't address any of the substance of what Wright actually said.

I don't want to speak for Buster...

But as I recall (and as I think he was saying), Buster was much more "conservative" during that election cycle. When he actually went back to look at the substance of the quotes, he thought they would be much more damning than they actually are.

 

[wizards8507]

I know none of y'all will watch these but I suggest you do. These are excellent sources of why believing Creationism is crazy and dangerous to our society.
14 Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism

Ben Carson is a Seven Day Adventist. He believes the world was created in six days 6000 years ago. This is insane. Because he can work on a brain means Jack shit when you reject the best explanation of reality based on "hard evidence". This is the opposite of conjecture or untestable assumptions. Someone said earlier that he knows more about science than others.... well that does not mean anything. knowing biology and solving physical problems is not all that science is and it is far greater in scope and knowledge than neurobiology.

It totally matters that someone like Carson or Cruz, who are excited about End Times, should or should not be in charge of the largest arsenal of global destruction.

What you're doing is the intellectual equivalent of "all Muslims want to kill Jews." You're smarter than that.

I believe in micro evolution. I believe in natural selection. But I have a different take on it. The evolutionists [say] that's proof that the theory of evolution is true. I say that's proof of an intelligent and caring God who gave His creatures the ability to adapt to their environment so He wouldn't have to start over every 50 years.

In other words, Ben Carson recognizes the biological mechanisms behind evolution but rejects the political anti-Christian narrative that those mechanisms disprove the existence of God. It's the same argument that Marco Rubio and Chris Christie have articulated about climate change. They believe it is real and man-made, but reject the proposed politically-charged propositions of the left that would cripple the economy in the name of the environment while in reality have very little actual effect.

 

[RDU Irish]

First off he is ignoring reality which is dangerous, and ignoring "the advice of others" because he won't listen to the most knowledgeable people (scientist). Also Carson does believe that the end times is near, which should be worrisome.

Finally his personal beliefs will impact the public ignorance. For better or for worse the U.S. President is a celebrity of sorts and people listen to them (think Jenny McCarthy and the anti-vaccine crowd). It isn't like this is a personal belief of his and he keeps it to himself, he talks about it rather frequently. So yes it will impact the public.

I would never vote for Trump but I would most likely vote for Kasich over Clinton (though Kasich will never get the nod, just as I would have considered voting for Huntsman but he had no chance at the nomination during the last cycle as well).

Someone wearing a sandwich board about the end of times is absolutely a risk to create a self fulfilling prophesy if put in the oval office. The 6000 year old earth thing is pretty damn ridiculous as well. Add the softball on vaccines asked a few debates ago where Carson AND Paul completely passed on a chance to back up medical science - instead implying Trump is correct in thinking vaccines cause autism. Yeah it is a big negative on Carson.

That being said, 1) I would have to see the original sourced material on Carson thinking the Earth is 6000 years old as I bet 80% of these claims against him are pumped up. 2) I would still vote for him over Hillary or Bernie.

 

[Cackalacky]

Someone wearing a sandwich board about the end of times is absolutely a risk to create a self fulfilling prophesy if put in the oval office. The 6000 year old earth thing is pretty damn ridiculous as well. Add the softball on vaccines asked a few debates ago where Carson AND Paul completely passed on a chance to back up medical science - instead implying Trump is correct in thinking vaccines cause autism. Yeah it is a big negative on Carson.

That being said, 1) I would have to see the original sourced material on Carson thinking the Earth is 6000 years old as I bet 80% of these claims against him are pumped up. 2) I would still vote for him over Hillary or Bernie.

Being a Seventh Day Adventist necessitates the young earth position because it takes the literal account of Geneiss as inerrant and revealed truth. Since that is the case all of the genealogies described in the Bible give a young earth date approximately 6000 years old. Seventh Day ADventism is also one of the primary sources of biblical geology and Flood geology that Creationists use to this day even though there is no objective evidence of their claims. Anyway, Seventh Day Adventist's prophet (Miller) claimed Jesus would return in 1844. Obviously he didn't. The whole thing is silly really. I find it interesting you would vote for a clinically insane reality denying nut job over a mostly rational person who at worst is the status quo or an even more rational person who at worst wants to help people by redistributing money....

 

[pkt77242]

What you're doing is the intellectual equivalent of "all Muslims want to kill Jews." You're smarter than that.


In other words, Ben Carson recognizes the biological mechanisms behind evolution but rejects the political anti-Christian narrative that those mechanisms disprove the existence of God. It's the same argument that Marco Rubio and Chris Christie have articulated about climate change. They believe it is real and man-made, but reject the proposed politically-charged propositions of the left that would cripple the economy in the name of the environment while in reality have very little actual effect.

Nope. Evolution (either Macro or Micro) does not disprove (nor prove) God. It has nothing to do with God (which some Christians take as anti-Christian when it isn't). Also he doesn't believe in Macroevolution, which is the center of this argument.

ETA: It does disprove the Creation story in Genesis though.

EETA: Does the fact that evolution does not include God make it anti-Christian to you?

 

[pkt77242]

Someone wearing a sandwich board about the end of times is absolutely a risk to create a self fulfilling prophesy if put in the oval office. The 6000 year old earth thing is pretty damn ridiculous as well. Add the softball on vaccines asked a few debates ago where Carson AND Paul completely passed on a chance to back up medical science - instead implying Trump is correct in thinking vaccines cause autism. Yeah it is a big negative on Carson.

That being said, 1) I would have to see the original sourced material on Carson thinking the Earth is 6000 years old as I bet 80% of these claims against him are pumped up. 2) I would still vote for him over Hillary or Bernie.

Ok, I wanted to find a Christian source talking about this (instead of Slate, CBS, MSNBC, etc). So here is an evangelical new site.
Satan 'encouraged' Charles Darwin to conceive evolution theory — Ben Carson | Christian News on Christian Today

So the first statement has nothing to do with 6000 year old Earth but is pretty damnging of his logic

A lot of people believe in God, but I personally believe that this theory that Darwin came up with was something that was encouraged by the adversary [Satan],"

Adversary is another name for Satan (I believe that it is the literal translation of Satan)

He discusses a book that he will write that will disprove evolution

The Republican presidential hopeful further said that he plans to publish a book called "The Organ of Species"—a direct reference to Darwin's "The Origin of Species"—to disprove the evolution theory.

"We're going to talk about the organs of the body and how they completely refute evolution, and several other things as well," the retired neurosurgeon said.

This quote shows that he might not believe in a 6000 year old Earth but he seems to imply that Humans have only been here for 6000 years as he states that the Earth might have been here before Humans were created.

"I'm not a hard and fast person who says the Earth is only 6,000 years old, but I do believe in the six-day creation," he said.

"It doesn't say when He created them except for, 'In the beginning.' The Earth could have been here for a long time before he started creating things on it," Carson added, referring to the Holy Bible's Book of Genesis.

I can try to find more if you would like.

 

[Cackalacky]

What you're doing is the intellectual equivalent of "all Muslims want to kill Jews." You're smarter than that.


In other words, Ben Carson recognizes the biological mechanisms behind evolution but rejects the political anti-Christian narrative that those mechanisms disprove the existence of God. It's the same argument that Marco Rubio and Chris Christie have articulated about climate change. They believe it is real and man-made, but reject the proposed politically-charged propositions of the left that would cripple the economy in the name of the environment while in reality have very little actual effect.

False. Did you even watch the videos? He does not "believe in evolution" and actually believes it is the work of the Adversary. Do you even read before you post critiquing people? One does not believe in evolution in the same way we don't believe the sun is blue. It is demonstrably evident. Again... take the time to watch the videos I linked to. i would appreciate it.

 

[bobbyok1]

Ok, I wanted to find a Christian source talking about this (instead of Slate, CBS, MSNBC, etc). So here is an evangelical new site.
Satan 'encouraged' Charles Darwin to conceive evolution theory — Ben Carson | Christian News on Christian Today

I am not disputing your arguments here, I am just pointing out something. The website you referenced is pretty questionable. As an avid reader of Christian materials (books, periodicals, blogs, websites) I read "Christianity Today" instead of the actual website you referenced "Christian Today." So I was excited to read the article on Christianity Today, whose periodical I subscribe too which also comes with an online version. But when I went to the site I knew immediately I had read your post wrong. The site does not model what typical scholarly Christian sites I have been too do, in fact it reeked of "clickbait" site with questionable ads no serious site would allow. Just saying, not sure I would put this up there as sound evidence from the Christian perspective on Ben Carson's views. Not saying it is false, just a questionable reference.

https://seocheaters4344.wordpress.com/tag/christiantoday-com/

 

[pkt77242]

I am not disputing your arguments here, I am just pointing out something. The website you referenced is pretty questionable. As an avid reader of Christian materials (books, periodicals, blogs, websites) I read "Christianity Today" instead of the actual website you referenced "Christian Today." So I was excited to read the article on Christianity Today, whose periodical I subscribe too which also comes with an online version. But when I went to the site I knew immediately I had read your post wrong. The site does not model what typical scholarly Christian sites I have been too do, in fact it reeked of "clickbait" site with questionable ads no serious site would allow. Just saying, not sure I would put this up there as sound evidence from the Christian perspective on Ben Carson's views. Not saying it is false, just a questionable reference.

https://seocheaters4344.wordpress.com/tag/christiantoday-com/

Fair point, so here is some websites covering Carson's views including quotes. Also it doesn't really change his quotes.

Ben Carson: Anti-science.

GOP candidate Ben Carson believes the Big Bang is a 'fairy tale' | Daily Mail Online
Carson Believes Big Bang Is Fairy Tale, Evolution Encouraged’ By Devil « CBS DC

Is this a good Christian newspaper? Christian Post
Ben Carson Says Darwin's Theory of Evolution Influenced by 'Forces of Evil,' But Believes in Micro Evolution

 

[RDU Irish]

I find socialism and Hillary Clinton to be much scarier than Creationists. One views the past and the other is trying to mold the future. I am more disturbed by his non-committal response on vaccines. That is something he would likely affect as President, put some Jenny McCarthy nut in as HHS head and watch vaccines take a turn backwards - that actually has potential for serious repercussions.

 

[pkt77242]

I find socialism and Hillary Clinton to be much scarier than Creationists. One views the past and the other is trying to mold the future. I am more disturbed by his non-committal response on vaccines. That is something he would likely affect as President, put some Jenny McCarthy nut in as HHS head and watch vaccines take a turn backwards - that actually has potential for serious repercussions.

It isn't just the fact that he is a creationist, it is that he is willing to ignore facts because they don't fit his worldview/religious views. That is worrisome part.

 

[GoIrish41]

It isn't just the fact that he is a creationist, it is that he is willing to ignore facts because they don't fit his worldview/religious views. That is worrisome part.

And it isn't only his religious views ... Carson says crazy stuff on the regular ...

Nine Craziest Things Ben Carson Has Ever Said | New Times Broward-Palm Beach

 

[kmoose]

It isn't just the fact that he is a creationist, it is that he is willing to ignore facts because they don't fit his worldview/religious views. That is worrisome part.

You do know that evolution is not an unequivocal fact, right? There are a lot of people who think that alien DNA experiments, not evolution, are responsible for the changes in life over millennia on this planet.

 

[pkt77242]

You do know that evolution is not an unequivocal fact, right? There are a lot of people who think that alien DNA experiments, not evolution, are responsible for the changes in life over millennia on this planet.

Please tell me you forgot italics.

Evolution is a fact (and a theory). There is no real argument about that. Just because people don't believe it doesn't change whether it is a fact or not. Just as someone believing that Earth is flat, doesn't mean that the Earth isn't round.

Evolution Resources from the National Academies

ETA: Evolution is a fact, Natural Selection is a theory.

Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory" 1994

 

[Cackalacky]

You do know that evolution is not an unequivocal fact, right? There are a lot of people who think that alien DNA experiments, not evolution, are responsible for the changes in life over millennia on this planet.

Watch the videos I linked above.....

 

[kmoose]

Watch the videos I linked above.....

I'm not spending my whole afternoon watching Ferris Beuhler's teacher (not actually Ben Stein, but the monotone drone) tell me all about why Creationism is false. Disproving Creationism doesn't prove Evolution. The truth is, I have reservations about both theories. And while creatures evolving is a fact, the idea that we humans evolved from some prehistoric blob of biomass is NOT. That doesn't mean that Creationism is true. It simply means that creationism remains a viable option. Christians may not have the timeline correct, but that doesn't disprove that God created the Earth and all living things on the Earth. And even if God created all of the living things on the Earth, that doesn't mean that some of those living things that he created have not evolved into something different.

 

[RDU Irish]

It isn't just the fact that he is a socialist, it is that he is willing to ignore facts because they don't fit his worldview/religious views. That is worrisome part.

See how easy that is to turn around on Bernie.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm not spending my whole afternoon watching Ferris Beuhler's teacher (not actually Ben Stein, but the monotone drone) tell me all about why Creationism is false. Disproving Creationism doesn't prove Evolution. The truth is, I have reservations about both theories. And while creatures evolving is a fact, the idea that we humans evolved from some prehistoric blob of biomass is NOT. That doesn't mean that Creationism is true. It simply means that creationism remains a viable option. Christians may not have the timeline correct, but that doesn't disprove that God created the Earth and all living things on the Earth. And even if God created all of the living things on the Earth, that doesn't mean that some of those living things that he created have not evolved into something different.

I figured as much as I stated earlier. He is remarkably brilliant and extremely knowledgeable and presents very strong factually supported videos. But, then you remain willfully ignorant because you don't want to listen. Willful ignorance is addressed in the videos. Those videos are incredibly full of everything you would ever want to know about why this post is completely wrong. You can lead a horse to water.....

There is so much wrong here that you could just self correct your self by watching those videos. Literally every word you wrote here is addressed and shown to be incorrect in those videos. Oh well....

 

[pkt77242]

See how easy that is to turn around on Bernie.

Except that economic theory is hardly a fact.

 

[RDU Irish]

Hillary is an evil hag, good luck disproving that one.

 

[bobbyok1]

Fair point, so here is some websites covering Carson's views including quotes. Also it doesn't really change his quotes.

Ben Carson: Anti-science.

GOP candidate Ben Carson believes the Big Bang is a 'fairy tale' | Daily Mail Online
Carson Believes Big Bang Is Fairy Tale, Evolution Encouraged’ By Devil « CBS DC

Is this a good Christian newspaper? Christian Post
Ben Carson Says Darwin's Theory of Evolution Influenced by 'Forces of Evil,' But Believes in Micro Evolution

Hey bud, not aware of the Christian Post website, may be a good one for all I know. And like you said, his statements were pretty clear from all I have seen. I think part of the issue here is why would Carson say Satan did anything? For someone like Carson who is part of the Christian community to suggest that there is a spiritual force of evil and it is a personal one, i.e. Satan, the Devil, the Enemy, and that evil being influenced someone to do something, is not at all out of the norm with the basic tenants of Christianity (obviously I recognize you and others may strongly disagree with the reality of spiritual evil). A large part of it comes back to ones worldview. So let me briefly share a portion of the Christian worldview, as it relates to Carson's comments.

A vast majority of all humanity through all recorded history has and does believe in a supreme spiritual being of good, or a god of some sort or another. And many of those people who make up the majority of humanity also believe in some sort or another of spiritual evil. A large segment of the Christian population worldwide believes there is a personal spiritual being known as Satan, the Devil who usurped the place of God in this world through the decision of humanity to do the exact thing God said not to do, which in affect means he was no longer their God, but Satan became their god bringing sin, death and evil of all sorts into this world through humanity. This is at least part of the Christian doctrine of the Fall of humanity. A fall from a place of reigning with God on this earth as he originally intended. So for Christians today worldwide and Christians throughout recorded history, many have understood Satan as the enemy of all of humanity, especially the enemy of Christians. He tempts, deceives, and influences everyone including Christians, unless they yield themselves to the graces of God, regularly trusting and depending on God as their God. Which is the way we were originally meant to live with God, in dependence upon him as God, instead of being "gods" of our own lives, which ironically only leads one to a place where Satan is their god.

So, Ben Carson would acknowledge that Satan has influenced him to act, think, say or do things that are not in line with the character of the God of the Christian Bible. This would not absolve him or anyone else from their cooperation with Satan. However, it also does not negate Satan's responsibility in seeking the ruin of others.

I say all that to say, him suggesting in whatever form he did that Satan influenced Charles Darwin to posit the theory of evolution is not all that bizarre or weird as you and others here have suggested. In fact, in the statements you linked of Dr. Carson he himself explains why it would sound like nonsense to those who do not believe in a god or in spiritual evil.

"Well you wouldn't understand it, no one would understand it unless they believe that there were forces of good and forces of evil. If you don't believe that, then that would be a nonsensical statement to you." (Ben Carson on his statements of evolution being a product of Satan's influence).

So for me the roots of opposition to his statement that Satan influenced the theory of evolution starts with a basic worldview difference between Christians (and people of faith in general) and materialists or people who do not believe in a god, or spiritual evil. Regardless of the content of the theory of evolution, some would call him irrational and crazy regardless because he believes there is an evil spiritual being bent on humanities ruin and who seeks to usurp the place of God.

Just my thoughts. I know this does not address the theory of evolution specifically, but that could be a lengthy conversation (and maybe not one best suited for this thread). I will be glad to talk more about that later. Got to go visit a 96 year old women who just got put in a nursing home and needs someone to be present with her. Below is one of the articles some quoted, which I shared the Carson quote above from.

Read more at Ben Carson Says Darwin's Theory of Evolution Influenced by 'Forces of Evil,' But Believes in Micro Evolution