Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[mick2]

I wasn't even going to respond because most of this is ridiculous but whatever.



Your takeaway from "Don't even think that's debateable" is that I'm not open to reasonable debate? Of all the posts in this thread, that's the one you want to pick out to show I've contradicted myself? I could go back and quote the half dozen times I've specifically thanked people who posted substantively in this thread (kmoose is the best example) who disagreed with me. I've repped a lot of people with opposing viewpoints. But because I get mad at someone who never comes in here other than to troll I somehow am not open to reasonable debate. Got it....



There are plenty of people who agree with me. Is Joe your child that you feel the need to defend him from some guy on the Internet pointing out that he isn't a good football player?



The point about politics threads is an example of a thread I vehemently hate but I just CHOOSE NOT TO GO TO IT. How fucking difficult is it for people to just ignore threads they think are stupid or pointless? Instead of posting a huge picture that slows down everyone's load times Fbolt (and anyone else that doesn't like this thread) can just not post in it. This thread is for people that want to discuss Kelly's performance after every game win or lose, good or bad. It's not for someone to come in here after wins (i.e. mick something) to mock people on the other side of the debate. I didn't do it after the Clemson loss and I won't be doing it if we lose again.



The full quote is "I'm just going to post a bunch of random negative thoughts about BK in this post but feel free to use this as a place to talk about him good or bad." Thanks for picking and choosing.

I chose to put it in this thread because there is an ongoing discussion about BK's performance. I want to be able to go back and track my thoughts in one thread. Is that so unreasonable? I don't want to have to go back and search through every Post Game thread. I'm such a bitch for wanting to do that.



I abhor people that lack any objectivity and can't handle one iota of negativity without resorting to name calling and posts like yours. I hope your first post in this thread is your last.

Sincerely,

IE's Bitch

it's Mick2, not that hard to remember.

give it up bro, it's not a winning battle regardless of the viewpoint whether it be positive or negative or somewhere in between.

 

[gkIrish]

it's Mick2, not that hard to remember.

give it up bro, it's not a winning battle regardless of the viewpoint whether it be positive or negative or somewhere in between.

All I ask of you and Fbolt and everyone else is that you post substantively and don't just come in here posting about how stupid the thread is. That's literally my only request. I think it's a very reasonable request. We would all get along fine if people didn't post in here that didn't have anything substantive to say or didn't post in here at all if they didn't like the thread. Tell me why BK is a good coach or why you disagree with something I say.

Do you agree?

 

[mick2]

All I ask of you and Fbolt and everyone else is that you post substantively and don't just come in here posting about how stupid the thread is. That's literally my only request. I think it's a very reasonable request. We would all get along fine if people didn't post in here that didn't have anything substantive to say or didn't post in here at all if they didn't like the thread. Tell me why BK is a good coach or why you disagree with something I say.

Do you agree?

I can't speak for fbolt, but I think I've stated substantively why I think Kelly is a good coach. I may have had some emotional posts after the gtech victory, and even admitted I could have had a bit more tact.

But any intentions you may have had for this thread are far gone, and what is left is just a back and forth pissing contest. probably best to end it.

 

[yankeeND]

Some of you like him, and some of you think he is not the guy and that's fine. We have had ups and downs over his tenure, but in all reality there are two stats that stand out to me to show that he is the guy for ND and they are: 4-2 vs USC and victories over LSU and Oklahoma(at their house). Not to mention 3-2 in bowl games, competitive again against the best (see last year's FSU game), and the fact that we got to the BCS title game in 2012. I don't know what else some of you are looking for except for actually winning it all, but don't think for a second that Kelly isn't searching for that as well. I'm ok with the criticism, as you are entitled to your opinion, but what is your real gripe with Kelly? He has done some great things to turn the program around from the laughing stock that we were after Holtz left. Kelly is not infallible, but he seems to have a good handle on his team and that he believes in them and they in him. And seriously, 4-2 vs SC.

 

[ulukinatme]

This thread is turning into the 2015 version of "We are slow, Longo must go."

 

[ulukinatme]

Some of you like him, and some of you think he is not the guy and that's fine. We have had ups and downs over his tenure, but in all reality there are two stats that stand out to me to show that he is the guy for ND and they are: 4-2 vs USC and victories over LSU and Oklahoma(at their house). Not to mention 3-2 in bowl games, competitive again against the best (see last year's FSU game), and the fact that we got to the BCS title game in 2012. I don't know what else some of you are looking for except for actually winning it all, but don't think for a second that Kelly isn't searching for that as well. I'm ok with the criticism, as you are entitled to your opinion, but what is your real gripe with Kelly? He has done some great things to turn the program around from the laughing stock that we were after Holtz left. Kelly is not infallible, but he seems to have a good handle on his team and that he believes in them and they in him. And seriously, 4-2 vs SC.

This. Other than a 2-3 record against Michigan, with two of those losses being basically flukes and could have gone either way, Kelly has done an excellent job against all our rivals and no one can say that since Holtz. We were the laughing stock of college football when it came to bowl games too, given the fact we had such a large string of losses going back to the 90s with only one crummy Hawaii bowl win with Weis to break that chain. Nobody is talking about our bowl record anymore, even though we could use a bigger bowl win. For those reasons alone I think you have to hand it to BK, this team is certainly in a better position for the future than they were when he took over. Maybe one of these seasons we can have a team go without more than a couple long term injuries, but I'm seriously beginning to believe the campus is sitting on a nuclear waste dump or something and it's making everyone's bones/ligaments brittle.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I have followed ND for a very long time, thus in that "poor" way I believe that I've earned a modest opinion.

When Coach came on, I felt a greater level of creativity, detail, and professionalism than I've been feeling for quite a long while. I continued to see those things while he painstakingly rebuilt the entire system and "atmosphere" around every phase of the program. I listened [with distress] to what felt like immature weirdly-impatient "persons" [I'm trying to control my emotions here like a 75 year old should] saying all manner of outrageously over-demanding things about every little perceived imperfection in on-and-off field decisions, while [despite their protestations to the contrary] not proffering those criticisms with nearly enough countering justly earned praise nor personal humility in what seemed often to be "authoritative" declarations of Coach's failures, some of which couched in language which made him seem like a total incompetent.

I am personally looking forward to "revisiting Brian Kelly", one of the nation's best coaches {EFF the straw man "elite" word}, for many years into our future --- please God let him stay with Notre Dame.

 

[GoIrish41]

I guess some folks forget how terrible this team became under Weis. Kelly has done a fantastic job at bringing this team back to respectability and contention. The fact that we can generate discussion about whether or not we could be in the playoffs is a hundred miles from the seasons we had in the not-too-distant past. I don't agree with some of the play calls or some of the personnel decisions at times, but Kelly deserves credit for making ND relevant again. We have a path to the playoffs this year if we keep winning. The only team that makes me nervous left on our schedule is Stanford (who we can most certainly beat). It is a little hard to believe that Kelly gets so much crap when we are a top 10 (or 11) team at mid-season after playing through the toughest part of our schedule.

 

[Cali_domer]

I guess some folks forget how terrible this team became under Weis. Kelly has done a fantastic job at bringing this team back to respectability and contention. The fact that we can generate discussion about whether or not we could be in the playoffs is a hundred miles from the seasons we had in the not-too-distant past. I don't agree with some of the play calls or some of the personnel decisions at times, but Kelly deserves credit for making ND relevant again. We have a path to the playoffs this year if we keep winning. The only team that makes me nervous left on our schedule is Stanford (who we can most certainly beat). It is a little hard to believe that Kelly gets so much crap when we are a top 10 (or 11) team at mid-season after playing through the toughest part of our schedule.

The toughest part maybe coming up... Right now we have 3 ranked teams remaining on our schedule and all 3 are on the road(which everyone knows how awesome we are on the road.).

 

[johnnycando]

I would like to add to this thread, that though imperfect, I'm 100% on the Brian Kelly train.

100% support from me.

He has built depth.

We've got 5 more tough regular season games, but we've only lost one game, by 2 points, this season after losing our starting QB.

Our back-up QB is a stud! He will challenge Malik for head honcho duty next year.

The future couldn't be brighter.

In my humble opinion.

I'd also wager we may be in title contention by the end of November...

That's right where we want to be. We're here.

 

[phork]

I'll revisit Kelly after next year. When Day and Smith and Fuller are all gone and see how that works out. We should be undefeated right now and I don't think we are losing the rest of the way. My wait and see is if we can reload and move forward.

 

[kmoose]

This is from another thread, but I think it ought to be shown every time someone hits the "Reply" button:

Life's too short to worry about going undefeated, national titles, etc. I mean, would it be great to win a natty? Hell yes. Is that the goal? Hell yes.

At the same time, just enjoy watching the Irish every week. Enjoy it for the moment and not for what happens a few months down the road.

This is the best "advice" I have ever seen on this board....

 

[johnnycando]

^

Very true and emotion invoking post.

We are blessed.

Thx for providing gravity posted from a guy that understands true fandom.

 

[yankeeND]

This is from another thread, but I think it ought to be shown every time someone hits the "Reply" button:



This is the best "advice" I have ever seen on this board....

That's how I feel about watching ND. I love the team, and I want them to do well, but sometimes they are going to lose, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. We are only guaranteed 12 games a year. Enjoy them!

 

[JughedJones]

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[Irish Insanity]

That's how I feel about watching ND. I love the team, and I want them to do well, but sometimes they are going to lose, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. We are only guaranteed 12 games a year. Enjoy them!

We all love this team.
We all want them to do well.
We all know sometimes they'll lose.
But when there are obvious shortcomings along the way that may, or have, cost us a game, there shouldn't be an issue discussing it. Even if it's a coach. Even if it's a player.
Spreading the field on 3rd and 3 or less is ridiculous. It's happened so many times this year. And killed important drives too.
Leaving a LB on the field who gets out ran by your D lineman is inexcusable. Continuing to run, run, run at an 8 or 9 man box blocking with only 5 lineman is inexcusable. And cost us a game.

 

[Cackalacky]

We all love this team.
We all want them to do well.
We all know sometimes they'll lose.
But when there are obvious shortcomings along the way that may, or have, cost us a game, there shouldn't be an issue discussing it. Even if it's a coach. Even if it's a player.
Spreading the field on 3rd and 3 or less is ridiculous. It's happened so many times this year. And killed important drives too.
Leaving a LB on the field who gets out ran by your D lineman is inexcusable. Continuing to run, run, run at an 8 or 9 man box blocking with only 5 lineman is inexcusable. And cost us a game.

Agree Its perfectly acceptable to analyze the good and bad. I understand how on a message board the analysis can become amplified by constant reminders in multiple threads but the fact is that BK has done some remarkable things with this program while having just as many mind numbing and inexcusable systemic habits that cost games or otherwise hamper the team's on the field performance.

I could seriously go with never seeing a jet sweep inside the 10 yard line again and if I do, my emotional response will be to resist putting my foot through the tv or taking out a spike in cortisol on a nearby tree.

Everyone wants this team to do well. No doubt about that. Some people have higher expectations and some are fine having a team that wins 9 games a year and produces fine student athletes. I think we owe it to our selves to know who those are in this online community and be a bit more respectful for each other's opinions.

 

[yankeeND]

We all love this team.
We all want them to do well.
We all know sometimes they'll lose.
But when there are obvious shortcomings along the way that may, or have, cost us a game, there shouldn't be an issue discussing it. Even if it's a coach. Even if it's a player.
Spreading the field on 3rd and 3 or less is ridiculous. It's happened so many times this year. And killed important drives too.
Leaving a LB on the field who gets out ran by your D lineman is inexcusable. Continuing to run, run, run at an 8 or 9 man box blocking with only 5 lineman is inexcusable. And cost us a game.

There is nothing wrong with discussing it. This is a discussion board after all. I am just trying to figure out how Kelly is "not the guy." Meyer didn't want it, Stoops, etc. Kelly did, and he has done a tremendous job in the process. He has different obstacles to face with recruiting, yet he is still winning games better than any coach since Holtz. Question some calls, but not whether or not Kelly is the guy is all I'm saying. You can obviously do that, but just know, you are wrong if you think otherwise.

 

[kmoose]

Spreading the field on 3rd and 3 or less is ridiculous. It's happened so many times this year. And killed important drives too.

You have said this before, and it makes me wonder if you watch any college football outside of Notre Dame?(that's not a criticism) Because this is what teams are doing now. Oregon, Ohio State, Florida State, Oklahoma, USC, Baylor; even teams like Nebraska and Penn State are all doing this now... The spread offense is here to stay in college football. You can either live with it, stop watching, or just be bitter all of the time. The choice is yours.

 

[gkIrish]

There is nothing wrong with discussing it. This is a discussion board after all. I am just trying to figure out how Kelly is "not the guy." Meyer didn't want it, Stoops, etc. Kelly did, and he has done a tremendous job in the process. He has different obstacles to face with recruiting, yet he is still winning games better than any coach since Holtz. Question some calls, but not whether or not Kelly is the guy is all I'm saying. You can obviously do that, but just know, you are wrong if you think otherwise.

There is no question that BK is the best coach since Holtz. The question is whether we can average 10 wins consistently with him as our coach. That's what I expect out of ND's head coach. That's what we are trying to figure out. Winning 10 games this year will go a long way towards proving us doubters wrong.

 

[Cackalacky]

You have said this before, and it makes me wonder if you watch any college football outside of Notre Dame?(that's not a criticism) Because this is what teams are doing now. Oregon, Ohio State, Florida State, Oklahoma, USC, Baylor; even teams like Nebraska and Penn State are all doing this now... The spread offense is here to stay in college football. You can either live with it, stop watching, or just be bitter all of the time. The choice is yours.

But you still have to convert. What does that say when you can't convert 3rd and short consistently? Being inefficient and failing to change is the essence of arrogance or folly.

 

[yankeeND]

We get it, some of you are expert play callers that have coached teams to national title games and multiple crystal balls. You hate jet sweeps and innovation. Okay, I'm being silly here, but the problems weren't the call, but rather protecting the rock. If anything it shows how much faith Kelly has in his players to execute more than anything else to me. Look at Robinson bouncing back and making that phenomenal catch Saturday. Football is a crazy game, and the ball doesn't always bounce your way, but to complain about a play here or there is small potatoes compared to the overall body of work is really all I'm saying.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

All I ask of you and Fbolt and everyone else is that you post substantively and don't just come in here posting about how stupid the thread is. That's literally my only request. I think it's a very reasonable request. We would all get along fine if people didn't post in here that didn't have anything substantive to say or didn't post in here at all if they didn't like the thread. Tell me why BK is a good coach or why you disagree with something I say.

Do you agree?

GK, a chara,

You know I love you man! You are and always have been one of my favorite posters, let alone the fact that you ran a tight ship in LaFun!

And we agree on whole bunches of things more often than not, ce n'est pas?

But the fact of the matter is your request (reasonable or not) is a logical impossibility. About whether BK is a good coach, I mean. Now that Steve Spurrier has retired, and Frank Beamer is done at the end of this season, BK is the second most winning active coach! Did you know that? And only one coach (Michael Drass of Wesley [DE]) has done it faster? And do you know that it has been since Lou Holtz has been coach that the Irish have had a coach with more wins?

Remember how different the rules were in those days. So BK is actually coaching under a completely different set of circumstances, devoid of many of the advantages Holtz was able to exploit to put the Irish over the top.

A better thread title, and request for posts would be either "What I don't like about Brian Kelly." Or "Character traits of BK that drive me nuts."

Because I think you are going to have an equally hard time making a case that the problems facing ND football are much of Kelly's doing, or that Kelly hasn't made a Herculean effort to bring # 1 back to the Irish.

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Bogs

 

[yankeeND]

There is no question that BK is the best coach since Holtz. The question is whether we can average 10 wins consistently with him as our coach. That's what I expect out of ND's head coach. That's what we are trying to figure out. Winning 10 games this year will go a long way towards proving us doubters wrong.

I don't disagree with your expectations, because our team is talented enough to do that. I also don't have a problem with your thread, and I like the open debate on Kelly. I can give my opinion on why I support him to those that do not to maybe help change their tunes a little. I agree that if he can get 10 wins this year, he should garner a lot more respect from the fan base and nationally as well. He's a really good coach, with the potential to be great, but I refuse to not acknowledge the great things he has accomplished to this point. I am a much happier fan with him manning the sidelines.

 

[gkIrish]

We get it, some of you are expert play callers that have coached teams to national title games and multiple crystal balls. You hate jet sweeps and innovation. Okay, I'm being silly here, but the problems weren't the call, but rather protecting the rock. If anything it shows how much faith Kelly has in his players to execute more than anything else to me. Look at Robinson bouncing back and making that phenomenal catch Saturday. Football is a crazy game, and the ball doesn't always bounce your way, but to complain about a play here or there is small potatoes compared to the overall body of work is really all I'm saying.

The complaints about playcalling come from issues we see over and over again. They aren't about one individual play. It's about calling the same play over and over again without success.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result."

Before this season, our punt return scheme was to leave the punt returner on an island and hope he fair catches successfully. There would never be ND players around to recover a fumble if it did happen. There was hardly ever a return.

This season? We have a real punt return unit that performs at a high level. Credit BK for making that adjustment (although it took too long). Bravo. I'd like to see him continue to make changes in other areas of struggle.

 

[kmoose]

But you still have to convert. What does that say when you can't convert 3rd and short consistently? Being inefficient and failing to change is the essence of arrogance or folly.

That wasn't his issue. Or at least it wasn' t the issue he presented. He presented his issue as being "spreading the field on 3rd and 3 or less is stupid", and if it's so stupid, then why are so many successful coaches doing it?

 

[Buster Bluth]

Some of you like him, and some of you think he is not the guy and that's fine. We have had ups and downs over his tenure, but in all reality there are two stats that stand out to me to show that he is the guy for ND and they are: 4-2 vs USC and victories over LSU and Oklahoma(at their house). Not to mention 3-2 in bowl games, competitive again against the best (see last year's FSU game), and the fact that we got to the BCS title game in 2012. I don't know what else some of you are looking for except for actually winning it all, but don't think for a second that Kelly isn't searching for that as well. I'm ok with the criticism, as you are entitled to your opinion, but what is your real gripe with Kelly? He has done some great things to turn the program around from the laughing stock that we were after Holtz left. Kelly is not infallible, but he seems to have a good handle on his team and that he believes in them and they in him. And seriously, 4-2 vs SC.

If you would've told me when they hired him that Notre Dame would go 4-2 against USC, get wins over power programs like LSU, Oklahoma, Miami, Texas, etc, make a national championship appearance, have a draft class finish #2 in the country, have multiple first-round picks, have NFL pro-bowl OL, etc...I'd need medical assistance to deal with the erection.

If you would've told me they lose to Tulsa, Northwestern, South Florida, and get blown out by Navy, have embarrassing academic misconduct in multiple offseasons, as well as embarrassing ssxual assault incidents and even a student assistant death... I'd have agreed with all of the haters that Notre Dame is finished as a national power.

So it's somewhere in between, Brian Kelly has restored the program, brought it into the 21st century, but also has outcoached himself on a number of occasions and frustrated the fan base on an annual basis.

I think quarterback play has really been the defining characteristic of his tenure. Specifically having to play quarterbacks too early. Rees should never have been the starter in 2010 or 2011, Golson shouldn't have been the starter in 2012. Golson progression was stunted by missing 2013, and now he's back to having to play a freshman (redshirt or otherwise) for the third time. It's really something else when you consider the QB rollercoaster he's had here.

But I'm an optimist. We know Kelly teams alway win with solid QB play, and the QB depth looks better now than it ever has. So all of the criticisms of playcalling and defense go out the window for me because is Kizer/Zaire/Wimbush are better than Rees/Golson, not the highest bar, then the team will win double-digit games every season.

 

[Cackalacky]

We get it, some of you are expert play callers that have coached teams to national title games and multiple crystal balls. You hate jet sweeps and innovation. Okay, I'm being silly here, but the problems weren't the call, but rather protecting the rock. If anything it shows how much faith Kelly has in his players to execute more than anything else to me. Look at Robinson bouncing back and making that phenomenal catch Saturday. Football is a crazy game, and the ball doesn't always bounce your way, but to complain about a play here or there is small potatoes compared to the overall body of work is really all I'm saying.

Honestly what does innovation have to do with inefficiency on third downs or the red zone. What does it matter how you get it when getting it is the biggest factor. The fact is is that BK is woefully inefficient in the red zone. Not even arguable at this point five years in. Even with the talent of this team,..... That screams coaching.

 

[yankeeND]

He's learning on the job here and making the adjustments. I think he will get it done, but that is just my opinion. ND is just a different animal. Everybody gives us their best shot, and we have to be on our game all the time, which is nearly impossible.

I also agree with the remarkable improvement in the punt game! Every time I see CJ in space I am amped! That has been difficult to watch over the first 5 years, but now is something I am looking forward to.

 

[yankeeND]

Honestly what does innovation have to do with inefficiency on third downs or the red zone. What does it matter how you get it when getting it is the biggest factor. The fact is is that BK is woefully inefficient in the red zone. Not even arguable at this point five years in. Even with the talent of this team,..... That screams coaching.

Well, let's just shit can him then. He's not the guy. I am wrong. Can't convert a 3rd and short. We suck. Maybe Charlie wants to give it another try.