At what point will Weis be accountable

[Vince Young]

Hey, we all agree that the fake punt was a bonehead call. If it had worked, we'd be calling Charlie a genius. He took a chance, hopefully, he learned from his mistake. How soon we forget the years under Ty and Davie. Charlie gives us hope. He is recruitung his ASS off to bring in talented players. Davie and Ty left the cupboard bare. Their recruiting efforts were lousy. Ty was especially poor in his effort to bring the best to Notre Dame. I have confidence that Charlie will bring us back to glory. He loves Notre Dame more than any of us.He feels the pain of this loss more than any of us. Pray that he stays healthy. He gave up a lot to come to Notre Dame. You think 10 and 3 is bad. Think of what you'd be complaining about if Ty had stayed with us. Ty didn't care about Notre Dame. Weis has his HEART in the right place. Ease up on him. Be a supporter. He cares too much to let this slide continue. LET US HAVE SOME POSITIVE VIBES DESCEND UPON NOTRE DAME OUR MOTHER. GO IRISH KICK USC'S ASS IN 2007.

Hellz yeah!

I JUST HEAD-BUTTED MY DOG!

 

[ACamp1900]

Hey, we all agree that the fake punt was a bonehead call. If it had worked, we'd be calling Charlie a genius. He took a chance, hopefully, he learned from his mistake. How soon we forget the years under Ty and Davie. Charlie gives us hope. He is recruitung his ASS off to bring in talented players. Davie and Ty left the cupboard bare. Their recruiting efforts were lousy. Ty was especially poor in his effort to bring the best to Notre Dame. I have confidence that Charlie will bring us back to glory. He loves Notre Dame more than any of us.He feels the pain of this loss more than any of us. Pray that he stays healthy. He gave up a lot to come to Notre Dame. You think 10 and 3 is bad. Think of what you'd be complaining about if Ty had stayed with us. Ty didn't care about Notre Dame. Weis has his HEART in the right place. Ease up on him. Be a supporter. He cares too much to let this slide continue. LET US HAVE SOME POSITIVE VIBES DESCEND UPON NOTRE DAME OUR MOTHER. GO IRISH KICK USC'S ASS IN 2007.

well yes, but give credit where creidt is due... Bob Davie didn't recruit "bare"... he just couldn't coach....

 

[BGIF]

At what point will Weis be accountable?

Two seasons ago ND was blown out by the likes of Purdue and Michigan State. Now ND wins those games but gets whipped by Top 5 teams and you want to complain about accountability?

He doesn't get to play JUCOs or guys with that can't spell algebra much less calculus. He doesn't have a 32% graduation rate for black athletes. He doesn't pay his players or his recruits. Unlike Ara he doesn't get 125 scholarship players a year. Unlike Holtz he doesn't have a full time Recruiting Coordinator (Vinnie Cerrato) that the NCAA doesn't allow. But you guys want to compare him to teams and coaches that can do all those things.

How about evaluating him on how he did with what resources he had and what limitations he had imposed upon him.


Since Day 1 Charlie Weis has said he is accountable for every aspect of this program. He didn't whine about the talent, "we play who we have". He takes issue with the statement "they're not his players" as they all play for him. He didn't whine about the schedule. He credits the players for victories and takes the blame for defeats.

At the post Sugar Bowl press conference he was asked, "If 9-3 wasn't good enough, what is 10-3?" He replied, "Disappointing! Disappointing to me." Charlie Weis is Charlie Weis's toughest critic.

He expects excellence. All the time. It's been his hallmark throughout his career.

Neither Davie nor Willingham left the cupboard bare. Just as it was NOT bare when Davie took over. (That phrase back in '96 was Lemming's not Davie's, BTW). But the cupboard was badly depleted in some cases and overstocked with some items of questionable quality (LBs) and short on some key essentials.

Quinn is the most prolific QB in ND history. Stovall, Samardzija, and Walker are the most profilic at there positions as well and Carlson will be as well. If Willingham was here Brady would still be squating behind center and completing 50% of his passes. If Davie was here Carlson would probably be a QB rather than a TE.

Weis took the a collection of under developed lemons, limes, and whatnots and turned them into a 19 and 6 pitcher of lemonade. And you guys want to bitch because he didn't turn it into Dom Perignon?

 

[cclanofirish]

i've seen less do a lot more,but i guess it's different since it's notre dame and weis.i won't take up for anyone in a 7-5 season their 3rd year and then blame it on some other coach.

When you say that, you are forgetting that most of these lesser teams are facing lesser competition, and also the fact that these teams are not playing predominantly freshman and sophomores, who unless a rare event, will make costly mistakes. Our team next year is too damn young, and if they finish 9-3 and win a bowl, I for one will be very happy.

 

[KMac151993]

I think in a way we are seeing that Bob Davie are similar but different......Davie was able to bring in top defensive talent but lacked in the offensive end and was a defensive mastermind....Weis is able to bring in top notch offensive talent but lacks in the defensive area and is an offensive mastermind. While Willingham just plain sucked in both areas. Here is a trivia question...who was the last defensive cord. to win a bowl game for the Irish?

 

[irish4life99]

I think in a way we are seeing that Bob Davie are similar but different......Davie was able to bring in top defensive talent but lacked in the offensive end and was a defensive mastermind....Weis is able to bring in top notch offensive talent but lacks in the defensive area and is an offensive mastermind. While Willingham just plain sucked in both areas. Here is a trivia question...who was the last defensive cord. to win a bowl game for the Irish?

The same DC who let BC score 41 points on ND and lost us a shot at the NC.

 

[Seymore]

I'm all for giving him a few more years, to get his players where he wants them, but if he keeps whiffing on DT and LBs' and keeps Minter, then his time is NOW ! Something is wrong/missing within this current team. It may be leadership, coordinators, etc. I'm not sure, but one thing is certain, if we dont start showing better defense, it's not gonna change with our recruiting. Right now is a crucial decision time for Weis. I think we'll see some major changes within the next few weeks, if not, then I, (personally) start judging him right away.He's gotta make some kind of LOUD statement to get his point across, or alot of people will begin to lose faith. I think he will !

 

[GREENJERSEYS'07]

if they finish 9-3 and win a bowl, I for one will be very happy.

they will and trust me,i know what kind of competetion they are up against also, and now chan gailey has seemed to have found a new quarterback for the home opener next year.i don't think that is too high of an expectation,nor do i think it is unrealitstic.
There are also some good juniors and senoirs waiting for the chance to prove themselves,plus some 5th year seniors.

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

Two seasons ago ND was blown out by the likes of Purdue and Michigan State. Now ND wins those games but gets whipped by Top 5 teams and you want to complain about accountability?

No one is complaining about anything, just simply asking a question. By the Way, you do realize that Ty has a better record against MSU than Weis does, and lets face it, the last two years Purdue has been horrible.

He doesn't get to play JUCOs or guys with that can't spell algebra much less calculus. He doesn't have a 32% graduation rate for black athletes. He doesn't pay his players or his recruits. Unlike Ara he doesn't get 125 scholarship players a year. Unlike Holtz he doesn't have a full time Recruiting Coordinator (Vinnie Cerrato) that the NCAA doesn't allow. But you guys want to compare him to teams and coaches that can do all those things.

NO ND coach will every be able to do these things, however lets not forget that Weis is now allowed Early enrollement and has a Multi Million dollar athletic facility that brought ND out of the Dark ages..

How about evaluating him on how he did with what resources he had and what limitations he had imposed upon him.

He had more resources than the last coach, AND all that is being asked is at what point does he become accountable for the losses and bad losses instead of blaming assistants and coaches from over 2 years ago


Since Day 1 Charlie Weis has said he is accountable for every aspect of this program. He didn't whine about the talent, "we play who we have". He takes issue with the statement "they're not his players" as they all play for him. He didn't whine about the schedule. He credits the players for victories and takes the blame for defeats.

He didn't whine about the talent because there is/was a ton of talent on this team, easily top 10 talent in the nation and considering the experience of his senior class, No coach in their right mind would "complain about the talent" on this team

At the post Sugar Bowl press conference he was asked, "If 9-3 wasn't good enough, what is 10-3?" He replied, "Disappointing! Disappointing to me." Charlie Weis is Charlie Weis's toughest critic.

He expects excellence. All the time. It's been his hallmark throughout his career.

Thats great and all, but when does he become accountable for the blowouts? Ole Miss hung with LSU and we looked like a high school team....is Ole Miss more talented?

Neither Davie nor Willingham left the cupboard bare. Just as it was NOT bare when Davie took over. (That phrase back in '96 was Lemming's not Davie's, BTW). But the cupboard was badly depleted in some cases and overstocked with some items of questionable quality (LBs) and short on some key essentials.

No doubt we had some depth issues but we had no major injuries affected by depth, and had one of the more talented teams on paper out there....

Quinn is the most prolific QB in ND history. Stovall, Samardzija, and Walker are the most profilic at there positions as well and Carlson will be as well. If Willingham was here Brady would still be squating behind center and completing 50% of his passes. If Davie was here Carlson would probably be a QB rather than a TE.


Weis took the a collection of under developed lemons, limes, and whatnots and turned them into a 19 and 6 pitcher of lemonade. And you guys want to bitch because he didn't turn it into Dom Perignon?

Weis took a bunch of Jr's and Sr's that shockingly played better than they did as Fr and Sophomores....

Or are you one of the few that thinks players as Freshman and Sophomores aren't going to improve....I guess Walls will always suck because he sucked this year, and won't improve as he matures, developes into a man physically and learns the game

 

[Fighting_Irish9]

By the way I agree with the people who say we should hold off until Weis gets his team in here and a Veteran group at that (not just a bunch of underclassman)

However, as IMO he shouldn't get all the blame for the losses, he shouldn't get all the credit for the wins

No coach should be judged until after his 4th Year IMO

 

[dankus]

Two seasons ago ND was blown out by the likes of Purdue and Michigan State. Now ND wins those games but gets whipped by Top 5 teams and you want to complain about accountability?

No one is complaining about anything, just simply asking a question. By the Way, you do realize that Ty has a better record against MSU than Weis does, and lets face it, the last two years Purdue has been horrible.

Wow. Ty has a better record against MSU then Weis? Are you joking?

Weis should be insta-fired.

By the way, did you know that Weis share the same winning percentage against Michigan ? Jesus, why did we fire Ty then? Zomg.

See, I can do it too. This is fun, let's continue spouting off asinine statistics to prove no point, but to try and lend credibility to each other's arguments.

How about evaluating him on how he did with what resources he had and what limitations he had imposed upon him.

He had more resources than the last coach, AND all that is being asked is at what point does he become accountable for the losses and bad losses instead of blaming assistants and coaches from over 2 years ago

I think you misunderstood his question. Yes he has new facilities, courtesy of the Ty era. But he lacked resources on the field. He had absolutely no depth, yet managed to still win with a team that Ty was unable to.

He can blame them all he wants next year as far as I'm concerned, but have you actually heard him blame the previous staff? Sure haven't.

Since Day 1 Charlie Weis has said he is accountable for every aspect of this program. He didn't whine about the talent, "we play who we have". He takes issue with the statement "they're not his players" as they all play for him. He didn't whine about the schedule. He credits the players for victories and takes the blame for defeats.

He didn't whine about the talent because there is/was a ton of talent on this team, easily top 10 talent in the nation and considering the experience of his senior class, No coach in their right mind would "complain about the talent" on this team

Lies.

Notre Dame's roster is not filled with top 10 talent. There are more schools with more talent top to bottom then ND has. There is no chance anyone from Florida, USC, LSU, Tennessee, Florida, Miami, Texas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Ohio State, Auburn, FSU, or Georgia would swap the entire team.

Talent extends far beyond the starters, and most of our starters wouldn't start for any other top 25 team in the nation. And most wouldn't make the two deep in the top 10.

At the post Sugar Bowl press conference he was asked, "If 9-3 wasn't good enough, what is 10-3?" He replied, "Disappointing! Disappointing to me." Charlie Weis is Charlie Weis's toughest critic.

He expects excellence. All the time. It's been his hallmark throughout his career.

Thats great and all, but when does he become accountable for the blowouts? Ole Miss hung with LSU and we looked like a high school team....is Ole Miss more talented?

This whole diatribe you have seems originate around someone he needs to be accountable to. Who? The alumni? After taking a straw poll of the 8 I know, all of them are much happier now then they were under Ty. Could they be happier? Sure. Could they be worse of? Absolutely.

To the school? Students love him. To the administration? As long as he runs a clean program, makes them money, and wins football games, I think they don't mind him one bit.

To you? Well, you can hold him accountable all you want if it makes you happy.

Neither Davie nor Willingham left the cupboard bare. Just as it was NOT bare when Davie took over. (That phrase back in '96 was Lemming's not Davie's, BTW). But the cupboard was badly depleted in some cases and overstocked with some items of questionable quality (LBs) and short on some key essentials.

No doubt we had some depth issues but we had no major injuries affected by depth, and had one of the more talented teams on paper out there....

Quinn is the most prolific QB in ND history. Stovall, Samardzija, and Walker are the most profilic at there positions as well and Carlson will be as well. If Willingham was here Brady would still be squating behind center and completing 50% of his passes. If Davie was here Carlson would probably be a QB rather than a TE.


Weis took the a collection of under developed lemons, limes, and whatnots and turned them into a 19 and 6 pitcher of lemonade. And you guys want to bitch because he didn't turn it into Dom Perignon?

Weis took a bunch of Jr's and Sr's that shockingly played better than they did as Fr and Sophomores....

Or are you one of the few that thinks players as Freshman and Sophomores aren't going to improve....I guess Walls will always suck because he sucked this year, and won't improve as he matures, developes into a man physically and learns the game

Weis took a bunch of no-names who improved dramatically his first year. It wasn't a slight improvement that we were accustomed to over Ty's tenure, it was Dramatic, with a capital D.

I am pretty sure no one believes Darrin Walls is going to suck.

The question is, would Quinn, Samardzija, McKnight, Stovall and Zibby been considered good at their positions in comparison to the rest of the nation if Ty stuck around one more year? We can't know for certain, but based on the minute improvement of Quinn from Freshman to Sophomore, I doubt it, at least in his case.


We had one of the more talented teams on paper? What?

We had one of the more talented offenses on paper, I agree with that statement, even without a running game.

Our defense, on paper, was no good. Claiming otherwise is simply a hyperbole.

 

[SillyIrish]

Anytime you have to move a running back to linebacker you need to think something is wrong with the d talent.

 

[irish4life99]

LMAO at everyone feeding FI9's Ty Willingham obsession. Fine my little Ty Homer FI9. Here's is some facts for you regarding your hero.

1. Tyrone Willingham has lost 8 games by at least 3 touchdowns. By comparison, Bob Davie lost 4 games by 3 touchdowns and Gerry Faust lost 3 games by 3 touchdowns. That means that in 3 years Tyrone Willingham has lost more games by 3 touchdowns than Bob Davie and Gerry Faust did in their 10 years combined.

2. Notre Dame was shut out by at least 30 points twice in 2003. The last time that happened was 1904.

3. In Tyrone Willingham’s first 3 years, Notre Dame has lost by at least 30 points 5 times. For perspective, in the previous 40 seasons (1961-2000), Notre Dame lost by at least 30 points a total of 4 times. Bob Davie only lost by 30 points 1 time, as did Gerry Faust.

4. The 38-12 loss to 6-6 Syracuse was Notre Dame’s first 3 touchdown loss to an unranked team since 1960.

5. From the 44-13 loss to Southern Cal in 2002 until the 20-17 loss to a 5-6 Brigham Young team, Notre Dame lost 10 games over a 15 game stretch. That was the worst 15 game stretch since 1960.

6. Tyrone Willingham is the first Notre Dame coach since Joe Kuharich (17-23) to have fewer wins by 3 touchdowns (5) than he had losses by 3 touchdowns (8). Bob Davie had twice as many 3 touchdown wins as losses (8 wins, 4 losses). Gerry Faust had over 4 times as many (14 wins, 3 losses).

7. In 2003, Tyrone Willingham became the first Notre Dame coach to have consecutive 4 TD losses to Southern Cal. In 2004, he had his 3rd in a row.

8. Tyrone Willingham has been a Notre Dame coach for 3 years out of the school’s 117 years (2.6% of the seasons) and has coached in 36 of Notre Dame’s 1,106 games (3.3%), however, he has coached in 23.8% (5 out of 21) of Notre Dame’s losses by at least 30 points.

9. After starting out 8-0, Tyrone Willingham’s record since has been 13-15.

10. When Tyrone Willingham took over, Notre Dame had the #1 all time winning percentage, with a record of 781-247-42 (.749), ahead of Michigan’s 813-265-36 (.746). At the end of the regular season of 2004, Michigan now has the #1 all time winning percentage, with a record of 842-274-36 (.747) while Notre Dame is #2 with a record of 802-261-42 (.745).

Some miscellaneous stats:

Three Notre Dame opponent records have been set in the last 3 years: Most passing yards against Notre Dame (425 yards)- Carson Palmer, USC, 2002
Most receiving yards against Notre Dame (217 yards)- Craphonso Thorpe,
FSU, 2003
Most passing touchdowns against Notre Dame (5)- Tyler Palko, Pitt,
2004, Matt Leinart, USC, 2004

Combined 3-year records:

Joe Kuharich: 10-18 (.357)
Ara Parseghian: 25-3-2 (.867)
Dan Devine: 28-7 (.800)
Gerry Faust: 18-15-1 (.529)
Lou Holtz: 25-10 (.714)
Bob Davie: 21-16 (.568)
Tyrone Willingham: 21-15 (.583)


Year by Year Coaching records for their first 3 years:

Joe Kuharich:
5-5
2-8
5-5

Ara Parseghian:
9-1
7-2-1
9-0-1

Dan Devine:
8-3
9-3
11-1

Gerry Faust:
5-6
6-4-1
7-5

Lou Holtz:
5-6
8-4
12-0

Bob Davie:
7-6
9-3
5-7

Tyrone Willingham:
10-3
5-7
6-5


Coaching Home Records for Their First 3 years:

Joe Kuharich: 7-8 (.467)
Ara Parseghian: 14-1 (.933)
Dan Devine: 12-3 (.800)
Gerry Faust: 9-7 (.563)
Lou Holtz: 15-3 (.833)
Bob Davie: 15-4 (.789)
Tyrone Willingham: 11-7 (.611)


Total Scoring Margins Through Their First Three Years at Notre Dame:

Ara Parseghian +731
Dan Devine +517
Gerry Faust +241
Lou Holtz +438
Bob Davie + 114
Tyrone Willingham +18


In the 117-year history of Notre Dame football, Notre Dame has lost by
more than 30 points 20 times.

Here is a listing of those losses, detailing year, coach, opponent, and
score:
1900 - O'Dea - Wisconsin - 54-0
1904 - Salmon - Wisconsin - 58-0
1904 - Salmon - Purdue 36-0
1905 - McGlew - Purdue - 32-0
1944 - McKeever - Army - 59-0
1945 - Devore - Army - 48-0
1945 - Devore - Great Lakes - 39-7
1951 - Leahy - Michigan State - 35-0
1956 - Brennan - Michigan State - 47-14
1956 - Brennan - Oklahoma - 40-0
1956 - Brennan - Iowa - 48-8
1960 - Kuharich - Purdue - 51-19
1972 - Parseghian - Nebraska - 40-6
1974 - Parseghian - USC - 55-24
1985 - Faust - Miami - 58-7
2000 - Davie - Oregon State - 41-9
2002 - Willingham - USC - 44-13
2003 - Willingham - Michigan - 38-0
2003 - Willingham - USC - 45-14
2003 - Willingham - Florida State 37-0
2004 - Willingham - USC - 41-10


The Five Year Myth

It is a myth that every coach at Notre Dame has an inalienable right to five years to prove himself. That has never been policy. Fifteen coaches in Notre Dame's storied history have, for various reasons, had tenures of less than five years. That list includes Kuharich, Devore, McKeever and Anderson since Rockne. More recently coaches Davie and Faust were given five years, and those decisions proved to be miserable failures. There was some justification to warrant Faust's extra time given his high school background and Father Ted's personal commitment to him, but giving Davie five years was gross negligence. The five-year plan is not policy and even if it were time has proven it to be a colossal failure that should be learned from and not repeated. Ara himself set the standard by boldly stating upon his arrival that if you can’t do it in three years, you can’t do it. And without exception this has proven to be true. In the entire history of Notre Dame, no coach who failed at the three year mark, succeeded in five years. There are some who claim that because of parity, restrictions and other issues, that Notre Dame can't win anymore, but they said the exact same things before both Ara and Lou arrived in South Bend and were proved wrong. Tedford, Meyer, Carroll, Stoops, Tressel, Amato, Friedgen, Holtz and others have made immediate impacts on their schools, most with far, far less talent than Notre Dame. When the five-year myth is promulgated by media talking heads and writers, it’s important to note that most of those talking heads and scribes are not fans of Notre Dame or speaking in Our Lady's best interest.


"Lack of Talent": The Excuse and The Myth

Notre Dame has more consensus top 25 starters than USC, Tennessee and Michigan. * Phil Steele

Only one Notre Dame recruiting class was ranked below consensus #7. That is Ty's latest class.*Phil Steele

Notre Dame has 15 Parade and USA Today first or second team All-Americans, including linebacker, wide receiver, defensive back, and every position along the offensive and defensive lines.

ND vs. USC - Talent
(Post script - Now that the ND-SC game is over its is easy to see there is some validity in the composite rankings below. In the 1st Quarter Notre Dame dominated USC proving they had at least similar raw talent. Then - coaching took over. The superior USC coaches steadily adjusted on both sides of the ball, and the ever-stumbling Irish coaches didn't ... resulting in their 8th blow-out loss in 3 years, more than Faust & Davie could manage in 10.)

The data below represents volumes of hard data compiled on thousands of high school football players by Parade, SuperPrep, Lemming, Emfinger, G&W Recruiting Advisor, Prepstar, AND Rivals over the past 5 years, with no thought to bolstering anyone's argument for this Saturday's ND-USC game. (Please see page 294 of Steel's 2004 issue for more information on how this data is compiled.) You may want to consider looking at all the top recruit rankings, not just Rivals to determine a more accurate picture of the composite raw talent rankings by ALL top recruiting services of ALL high school AND junior college entrants to Div 1 programs. I doubt that all of the Rivals execs will share your willingness to shout about how foolish these other services must be just because there are cases where they may disagree somewhat on an individual recruit's ranking. In my opinion, these composite rankings of all top 6 recruiting services (including Rivals), while imperfect, give us a better gauge, OVER TIME, of which Head Coaches TEND to get more from less ROUTINELY and which HC's don't do that. Every ND HC coach who has been hired on Malloy's watch has failed to inspire, teach, develop, utilize and coach the raw talent they get to even meet, never mind exceed their potential. That is unfair to these kids. If you are really determined to argue that point (other than just calling anyone who disagrees with your poorly researched argument - a "fool"), you have a lot more work to do.

ND & SC starters (taken from their web site today) and how they were ranked at their position by a composite of the top 6 recruiting services leaving high school or JC in the country.

OFFENSE

ND - SC
QB Quinn (12) - Leinart (9),
BACKS Walker (13)/Grant (25)/P-Neal (36) - White (7)/Bush (5)/Webb (253)
WR Stovall (4)/McKnight (9)/Holiday (8)/Samardzija (22) - Smith (3)/Buchanan (23)/McFay (76)/Jarrett (4)
TE Fasano (8) - Holmes (5)
OL Sullivan (3)/LeVoir (4)/Morton (14)/Harris (18)/Stevenson (19) - Lutui (4)/Matua (12)/Baker (15)/Kalil (34)/Drake (113)

DEFENSE

DL Abiamiri (1)/Pauly (4)/Landri (5)/Tuck (16) - Cody (1)/Jackson (6)/Patterson (140)/Rucker (Unranked)
LB Goolsby (4)/Curry (25)/Hoyte (29) - Grootegood (3)/Santz (23)/Tatupu (Unranked)
CB Campbell (18)/Ellick (Unranked)/Jackson (69) - Wyatt (25)/Nunn (165)
S Zbikowski (9)/Burrell (21) - Bing (4)/Leach (29)

As expected USC ranks very well in the rankings for their overall recruit classes over the last 5 years (based on a composite of these same top 6 recruiting services, including Rivals) that comprise their 2004 squad = 11, 13, 7, 1, 1 for a very low total of 33 recruit points or an average of 6.6 per year. Very few teams in the country could match such impressive numbers. Surprisingly however, ND is one of those teams. In fact ND had an even lower 6, 5, 5, 3 (for a best-in-the-country average of 4.8) prior to Ty's last #17 ranked class that brought the 2004 team total recruit points up to 36 - for a still very low average of 7.2.

Despite this none of us would argue that ND has as much talent TODAY as SC, just that they did have more comparable raw talent when each of the past 5 classes arrived at each school. The major difference is that ND's talent (under any Malloy hire) is never fully inspired, developed, utilized, taught, prepared or coached.

http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=faq;pid=20;d=this

 

[Irish52]

I think it's time to quit blaming Ty for the big game losses under Charlie. Don't forget, Boise State went undefeated with 95% 2-star players. Coaching does make a difference. The head coach provides leadership, the position coaches provide the tutoring of fundamentals and the necessary recruiting to get players that can be tutored. And the OC and DC theoretically provide the tactics and strategy to win games....both BIG and small.

 

[leprechaun4life]

He didn't whine about the talent because there is/was a ton of talent on this team, easily top 10 talent in the nation and considering the experience of his senior class, No coach in their right mind would "complain about the talent" on this team

Who ever said ND had Top 10 talent across the board? I've never heard that. I've heard Quinn is good, Samardzija has done fantastic under Weis, Abiamiri could be good if he was more consistent, and John Carlson is a good TE. When a senior RB is switched to LB, and there are no injuries, then the team is not very talented. Did you watch the defense? The D Line was manhandled by opposing Offensive Lines all year.

 

[irish4life99]

He didn't whine about the talent because there is/was a ton of talent on this team, easily top 10 talent in the nation and considering the experience of his senior class, No coach in their right mind would "complain about the talent" on this team

Who ever said ND had Top 10 talent across the board? I've never heard that. I've heard Quinn is good, Samardzija has done fantastic under Weis, Abiamiri could be good if he was more consistent, and John Carlson is a good TE. When a senior RB is switched to LB, and there are no injuries, then the team is not very talented. Did you watch the defense? The D Line was manhandled by opposing Offensive Lines all year.

FI9 is always quoting Mel Kiper. Mel said on defense outside Zibby, and Abamri that ND is has a serious lack of athletes and overall level of talent. It was on the ESPN site, but I couldn't find the articale any more. But I've posted the link before, so it's quite ligit. FI9 never did respond to that one. Maybe I'll post it again.

 

[mirertobrooks]

Um, isn't that where it starts? Get better and more talented recruits, and you even out the playing field to those elite teams we have gotten blown out by this year, and eventually you compete with them well enough to actually win those games.

Again I really like CW, I don't want to see him get fired anytime soon, however I don't understand everyones love obsession with him. I don't understand why so many of you are standing up for him like it isn't his fault. I've now heard every excuse that could possibly be made for him. Ty and Davie did not get the same courtesy. Everyone has been sold on the belief that everything is going to change, I was too until the last two games. He needs to turn this thing around, I'd like to see results in the next 3 years. I don't even need a NC, I just need these things.
1. Beat USC once in the next 3 years.
2. Win a bowl game.
3. Don't get blown out more then once in a season, never if possible.
4. For the love of God put up a fight against a team you don't match up with well. Upset somebody!

If this type of progress is made I would love to see a situation similar to that of the Pittsburgh Steelers evolve. Keep a coach for 15 years, give him a chance, ND would be much more stable without constantly replacing coaches. I think CW can do it, now he has to prove it.

Excuses that must be put to bed my fellow ND supporters:
1. We have to wait until he gets his guys in there. This is retarded, Urban is doing pretty good with Zook's guys in Florida, and everyone talks about what an idiot Zook is, please. Holtz won a NC in his 3rd year with some of Faust's guys, and ND used to play a much more difficult schedule back then, Holtz teams were usually in most games, even at 5-6 and 8-4 in '86 and '87.
2. A win is a win, but squeaking out close ones with MSU, UCLA, and GT (granted, all pretty decent teams at the time we played them). I don't know, those were hard fought games, ND won absolutely. However football is a game of inches, and sometimes you never know how the ball is going to bounce, ND was not to far from being 7-6 team this year. I just don't see how the team played that much better then when TY had them.
3. No question the program regressed after 2005, this was a step back not a step forward.
4. Finally, and this one sucks the most, our offense and our defense both suck. Quit blaming eveything on Minter and the D. Yes, the defense sucks much more then the offense, but I gotta tell you, our Coach, with his three Super Bowl rings sucked ass at play calling this year. Constantly in third down, constantly being penalized, how many plays did they run in the second half vs LSU while our defense was sucking wind. The offense has cost us dearly as well. Putting it all on Minter is BS. Weis has to be accountable for that. Breaking passing records and scoring in the 40's vs BYU, Navy and Stanford dosen't mean much when you face the USC and LSU's.

Does anyone remember how well ND played vs Pitt and Purdue in 2005 on offense. Where the hell did that group go? Same guys pretty much, and where did the play caller go? What happened to the no huddle? The intesity of the OL? The enthusiasm of the skill players? WTF!!!

This was all very painful to write. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has gone on a rant since the Sugar Bowl and I apologize. I love ND, I like Charlie, I'm really going to miss #10. It just sucks, and it still hurts pretty bad. Unfortunately, this is the truth. Thanks for letting me share.

 

[solo]

Again I really like CW, I don't want to see him get fired anytime soon, however I don't understand everyones love obsession with him. I don't understand why so many of you are standing up for him like it isn't his fault. I've now heard every excuse that could possibly be made for him. Ty and Davie did not get the same courtesy. Everyone has been sold on the belief that everything is going to change, I was too until the last two games. He needs to turn this thing around, I'd like to see results in the next 3 years. I don't even need a NC, I just need these things.
1. Beat USC once in the next 3 years.
2. Win a bowl game.
3. Don't get blown out more then once in a season, never if possible.
4. For the love of God put up a fight against a team you don't match up with well. Upset somebody!

If this type of progress is made I would love to see a situation similar to that of the Pittsburgh Steelers evolve. Keep a coach for 15 years, give him a chance, ND would be much more stable without constantly replacing coaches. I think CW can do it, now he has to prove it.

Excuses that must be put to bed my fellow ND supporters:
1. We have to wait until he gets his guys in there. This is retarded, Urban is doing pretty good with Zook's guys in Florida, and everyone talks about what an idiot Zook is, please. Holtz won a NC in his 3rd year with some of Faust's guys, and ND used to play a much more difficult schedule back then, Holtz teams were usually in most games, even at 5-6 and 8-4 in '86 and '87.
2. A win is a win, but squeaking out close ones with MSU, UCLA, and GT (granted, all pretty decent teams at the time we played them). I don't know, those were hard fought games, ND won absolutely. However football is a game of inches, and sometimes you never know how the ball is going to bounce, ND was not to far from being 7-6 team this year. I just don't see how the team played that much better then when TY had them.
3. No question the program regressed after 2005, this was a step back not a step forward.
4. Finally, and this one sucks the most, our offense and our defense both suck. Quit blaming eveything on Minter and the D. Yes, the defense sucks much more then the offense, but I gotta tell you, our Coach, with his three Super Bowl rings sucked ass at play calling this year. Constantly in third down, constantly being penalized, how many plays did they run in the second half vs LSU while our defense was sucking wind. The offense has cost us dearly as well. Putting it all on Minter is BS. Weis has to be accountable for that. Breaking passing records and scoring in the 40's vs BYU, Navy and Stanford dosen't mean much when you face the USC and LSU's.

Does anyone remember how well ND played vs Pitt and Purdue in 2005 on offense. Where the hell did that group go? Same guys pretty much, and where did the play caller go? What happened to the no huddle? The intesity of the OL? The enthusiasm of the skill players? WTF!!!

This was all very painful to write. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has gone on a rant since the Sugar Bowl and I apologize. I love ND, I like Charlie, I'm really going to miss #10. It just sucks, and it still hurts pretty bad. Unfortunately, this is the truth. Thanks for letting me share.

I agreee with most all of what you said other than the fact about waiting until Weis' guys get there. The situations you referenced were not the same at all. Urban Meyer took over with the stable full. Zook could recruit, he just couldn't coach. Holtz took over a talented team too. Faust could recruit, he just couldn't coach.

Willingham couldn't recruit or coach. So Weis inherited a MUCH bigger challenge than Urban Meyer or Lou Holtz did.

Other than that, I think you are on the money.

 

[TonyTiger]

I believe in giving coaches alot of time and allowing them to get their recruits into the program. With that said, If he isnt competing for championships by year Four, than Weis will start losing alot of "mystique". If by year 5 he still cant hang with the big boys, than there will be noone left on the Weis bandwagon.

 

[mirertobrooks]

I agreee with most all of what you said other than the fact about waiting until Weis' guys get there. The situations you referenced were not the same at all. Urban Meyer took over with the stable full. Zook could recruit, he just couldn't coach. Holtz took over a talented team too. Faust could recruit, he just couldn't coach.

Willingham couldn't recruit or coach. So Weis inherited a MUCH bigger challenge than Urban Meyer or Lou Holtz did.

Other than that, I think you are on the money.

I agree, to win a championship and probably to beat USC and consistently beat BCS caliber teams, I think your absolutely correct.

3 blowout losses though. No, I don't think you need to wait until you have "your guys."

another point I'd like to make
I disagree with calling the Ohio St. game a blowout last year, without Ohio St. converting on 3rd and 8, with 2 minutes left, ND would have had the ball, down a touchdown and plenty of time to score. OSU's late touchdown was a garbage score when the Irish defense brought everybody to try and force a turnover. i guess that's why I'm so suprised with the 3 blowouts this year, and why I feel the team really regressed. The 3 losses in '05 were all close games, I mean for you give up 600 yards to Ohio st. and your still in the game with 2 minutes left........ok I'm done. On to 2007.

 

[Master Guns]

The biggest thing that puzzles me about the Irish and CW is the night and day difference between last years squad against SC and this years match-up(relativley the same personnel and team). Why the big change? I think that is how the season went. They could be up for anyone, if they wanted to. But against top teams, they chose not to.

 

[mirertobrooks]

CW was overconfident in 2006. In 2005 a fire was lit under everyone's ass. The players seemed to play like they were on fire. Reckless at times in 2005, playing out of their minds, starting to believe, confidence was growing. Not sure what happened in the off season in '06. ??? I'm not going to speculate, I just think the attitude changed, sometimes people get comfortable. Successful people do not get comfortable. Comfort is for failures. It just seemed like the 2006 squad was always pressing, and not playing the way the did in 2005. Uninspired at times.

In 05 they were like "fuck it, what do we have to lose, everyone thinks we suck, let's prove everyone wrong"
In 06 they were like "pressure, expectations are high, I can't blow this pass, or tackle or kick, etc."

Not sure if that post made since, I started drinking tonight, everyday since the Sugar Bowl.

"Successful people enjoy difficulty, they look forward to the challenge."
John Wooden

 

[mirertobrooks]

Everyone really got spoiled with Lou Holtz also. if you've never heard this guy speak live you should.
When Holtz talks, you just believe every single wor that comes out of his mouth, he makes you believe that you can do anything. In life, football, business, whatever.
Holtz might have been option football, tough grind it out Woody Hayes style type of a coach, but he made people believe, believe in themselves, and truly is a teacher of success.

CW has to do the same.

 

[solo]

I agree, to win a championship and probably to beat USC and consistently beat BCS caliber teams, I think your absolutely correct.

3 blowout losses though. No, I don't think you need to wait until you have "your guys."

another point I'd like to make
I disagree with calling the Ohio St. game a blowout last year, without Ohio St. converting on 3rd and 8, with 2 minutes left, ND would have had the ball, down a touchdown and plenty of time to score. OSU's late touchdown was a garbage score when the Irish defense brought everybody to try and force a turnover. i guess that's why I'm so suprised with the 3 blowouts this year, and why I feel the team really regressed. The 3 losses in '05 were all close games, I mean for you give up 600 yards to Ohio st. and your still in the game with 2 minutes left........ok I'm done. On to 2007.

Whether you call that game a blowout or not, the fact that we gave up 600 yards in a January game has got to make you double think how good the D can be 8 months later. That game told me that we would not have a NC calibre defense in 2006.

 

[mirertobrooks]

Whether you call that game a blowout or not, the fact that we gave up 600 yards in a January game has got to make you double think how good the D can be 8 months later. That game told me that we would not have a NC calibre defense in 2006.

Absolutely correct. But my point is this, in comparision to the 3 losses this year, ND was in the game with 2 minutes left in the Fiesta Bowl. Blindly I brushed off the yards and chalked it up as a bad game. ND really did play pretty shitty in the Fiesta Bowl. But I did not consider it to be a blowout. The team competed, and I thought regardless of how bad are defense is, we have an offense that can keep us in every game. And hell if we catch a few breaks, we might win some games even if we give up a bunch of points and yards. This didn't happen, and we lost 3 games by more then 20 points. I consider a blowout a 17 point loss or more. 3 scores. Nor garbage late TD's either.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that I'm just as disappointed in the offense as I am the defense.

 

[solo]

Absolutely correct. But my point is this, in comparision to the 3 losses this year, ND was in the game with 2 minutes left in the Fiesta Bowl. Blindly I brushed off the yards and chalked it up as a bad game. ND really did play pretty shitty in the Fiesta Bowl. But I did not consider it to be a blowout. The team competed, and I thought regardless of how bad are defense is, we have an offense that can keep us in every game. And hell if we catch a few breaks, we might win some games even if we give up a bunch of points and yards. This didn't happen, and we lost 3 games by more then 20 points. I consider a blowout a 17 point loss or more. 3 scores. Nor garbage late TD's either.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that I'm just as disappointed in the offense as I am the defense.

Oh yeah, I'm very disappointed in the offense too. The offense simply seems to get shut down by almost every good defense they face. GT, LSU, Michigan , USC, UCLA. We put up good offensive numbers versus average to bad teams. But against the good teams, our offense didn't produce.

Next year will tell you a lot about Charlie as a coach. He has had the luxury of having an NFL calibre QB. With a new starter at QB and much of the offense gone, this will be Weis biggest coaching challenge to date.

 

[mirertobrooks]

Oh yeah, I'm very disappointed in the offense too. The offense simply seems to get shut down by almost every good defense they face. GT, LSU, Michigan , USC, UCLA. We put up good offensive numbers versus average to bad teams. But against the good teams, our offense didn't produce.

Next year will tell you a lot about Charlie as a coach. He has had the luxury of having an NFL calibre QB. With a new starter at QB and much of the offense gone, this will be Weis biggest coaching challenge to date.

You just summarized exactly how I feel. We'll see what happens, I'm cautiously optimistic. Should be a fun spring.

 

[KMac151993]

The same DC who let BC score 41 points on ND and lost us a shot at the NC.

Check that one....

 

[He Gawn]

Oh yeah, I'm very disappointed in the offense too. The offense simply seems to get shut down by almost every good defense they face. GT, LSU, Michigan , USC, UCLA. We put up good offensive numbers versus average to bad teams. But against the good teams, our offense didn't produce.

Next year will tell you a lot about Charlie as a coach. He has had the luxury of having an NFL calibre QB. With a new starter at QB and much of the offense gone, this will be Weis biggest coaching challenge to date.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Weis came in with a very questionable QB in Quinn and still won a lot of games. Who's to say having a QB he himself recruited he won't fair even better?

 

[noel fighting irish hall]

Irish for Life 99. Good article. I agree with your assessment. I appreciated the list of facts. It was very interesting.When Holtz took over in 86, you could sense that things were going to be different. We lost games, but we were in them until the end for the most part. Weis is supposed to be an offensive genius. At times he has me scratching my head. I wouldn't get sick about a loss if we played well with emotion and didn't get blown out.