Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

Brian Kelly Revisited


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kmoose

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LOL I said this the first day. I work 12 hours + per day and don't have time to research properly to meet your deadlines.

And yet, we are supposed to just accept your analysis of Brian Kelly's coaching failures? Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, your opinion is clouded by emotion and not really accurate?

In Lou Holtz's 5th year, he lost to a 1-3 Stanford team that was coming off of a loss to San Jose State. SAN JOSE STATE beat Stanford one week, and Stanford beat ND the next week. Is that where you would expect an ND team to be, in the 5th year of Holtz's tenure?

After 5 full seasons, Brian Kelly has exactly two less wins(45) than Coach Holtz had(47) after his 5th season. Holtz's winning pct was .770, to Kelly's .682. Holtz is clearly the winner there, but Kelly's numbers are at least in the same ballpark.

I get that you are not calling for his head now. However, you do seem awfully reluctant to acknowledge any of Kelly's accomplishments. That leads me to believe that perhaps you have already made up your mind, and are just leaving wiggle room in case the season turns out to be magical.
 

aubeirish

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I would love to rally behind this as well, but it seems to me that at the very least the defense fell apart at the seems when Zaire went down last week.

I think it did. Guys were probably very emotional when it happened, but the dust has settled now. I think this adds an extra motivation for the defense to perform better.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I see plenty of avenues for this team to make the playoff. Once you are in the playoff, it is a completely new ballgame - you have a month to prep and get healthy. You have the whole season to establish your go-to guys. And you typically have an awesome stage for your players to make a case for NFL teams.

We have more NFL talent on this team than we have had for 20 years. Not just guys sneaking into the 6th round or hoping to make a team. Difference makers, first and second round picks. That is what championship level teams are made of. If you can't see that we are as close as we have been in 20 years and better than we were 3 years ago, well I just can't help you there.

Boomshakalaka. This is where I'm at. I won't b!tch and complain about Kelly. We're 2-0 after a Texas shellac'ing and a very close game against UVa on the road, in which he lost his #1 QB and #1 RB after already losing his #1 NT and #1 nickel, oh and his #1 TE.

We have 2 - 1st round picks and probably 4-5 2nd-5th rounders. This is exactly what you need to clamp down on defense. Let's see BVG make his money with these players. KVR has an opportunity to bounce back against a physical team.

Notre Dame is rarely going to have #1 LB and #1 OT on the field at the same time. It's time we put in work. Sheldon Day is a draft pick, KVR will be a draft pick because he has freaky athleticism and will show well at the combine, let's see what he can do on the field, Cole Luke is a future draft pick. Nick Martin is at least a 4th rounder, most believe our whole OL is likely draftable. No excuses.

We've started off with irreparable damage two games into the season but guess what: this is still a team with a lot of talent. WE'RE 2 - 0. I'm not guaranteeing a victory but damn, we haven't lost a game yet and we're already discussing whether Brian Kelly is the man for the job.

Can we at least postpone, if not outright cancel, our dreary attitudes about the season? Is it possible to just keep some excitement about possibilities until they are all extinguished? I get so amped up for CFB and ND in particular that I follow them every week of the year. Many of you are the same, we follow recruiting, we follow coaching changes, we try to at least familiarize ourselves with the chess match that is football. We find articles about schemes, and recruiting tactics, we find articles about the school outside of football, we do all of this because we are passionate about the team and the university.

Let's not self-extinguish the passion until we must. If we have 3 more days or 300 of being undefeated, let's revel in the pride of being Irish. There is plenty of time to burn down the palace but we're only two weeks removed from burning our boats.
 

aubeirish

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Who's throwing in the towel?
And of you read thru the entire thread, it's not just about this year, but his tenure as a whole.
It's just a discussion/criticism of the program and coach at this point. I don't get people's issue with that.

Is this Kelly's ceiling? 8-9 wins. Mediocrity. One run at the championship on the back of a D littered woth NFL players? Is it just on Kelly?

Frankly I don't have the time to read everything. That said, I don't get why a thread like this would surface when this team has been taking care of business up to this point. Injuries has nothing to do with Kelly's coaching in this instance.

Kelly cleaned this program up. His recruiting is excellent. The way he carries himself is excellent. His coaching is excellent, It's not perfect, but you will never get perfect. It does not exist. He brought us to a national championship. The expectations at ND are absolutely ridiculous. I think that if we make the playoffs once in a four years cycle, then it's mission accomplished. Anything else is bonus. Kelly has built a team and a culture that can achieve bonus or at least the minimum.
Personally, I can't remember seeing as much talent and just raw speed on an ND team as team 127 has since this new millenium began.
 

woolybug25

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Who's throwing in the towel?
And of you read thru the entire thread, it's not just about this year, but his tenure as a whole.
It's just a discussion/criticism of the program and coach at this point. I don't get people's issue with that.

Is this Kelly's ceiling? 8-9 wins. Mediocrity. One run at the championship on the back of a D littered woth NFL players? Is it just on Kelly?

If this thread is really about "his tenure as a whole"... then riddle me this...

Would this thread even exist if we would have whooped UVA and Malik wasn't hurt? If no, then how can you honestly act like this is anything but a hand wringing thread filled with negative energy about our staff, simply because we have some adversity.
 

Dizzyphil

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If this thread is really about "his tenure as a whole"... then riddle me this...

Would this thread even exist if we would have whooped UVA and Malik wasn't hurt? If no, then how can you honestly act like this is anything but a hand wringing thread filled with negative energy about our staff, simply because we have some adversity.

truly believe a lot of folks have a '24 hour' memory.........


and sometimes a '24 hour' allegiance.
 

skehiaian

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Kelly's Tenure

Kelly's Tenure

truly believe a lot of folks have a '24 hour' memory.........


and sometimes a '24 hour' allegiance.

It is hard to be positive when we lost five starters so early in the season, but for some reason I am optimistic. We have fairly good depth in most positions and our team never quits.

As far as Kelly is concerned, these are my comments on his tenure here with Notre Dame:

Kelly has built a very strong program with depth for the first time since Lou. His strengths are understanding the large picture, recruiting and managing ND's special circumstances. His weaknesses in my opinion is play calling (To predictable) and I personally thing he relies too much on spreading out the field with plays behind the line of scrimmage, which often leads to loss of yards. He needs to call more slant pass plays with larger receivers like Robinson and his great tight ends that he has available. The running plays are too slow to develop and I thought Kelly was going to bring an up beat tempo and hurry up offenses which I have not seen. I would bring in more guys like Jerome Bettis, bruising backs who can pick up tough yards and ware down the defense. This type of running game would give our offense and defense more confident and would make us more physical. I know when I played offense, I much preferred running plays to passing plays, it got us into a rhythm.

I would simplify our defense and play more man to man. Our front line is fine, but our defensive backs always seem to be out of position, gives way too much distance between themselves and the receivers and seem to get beat deep.

Lastly, our special team play is consistently poor, very few game changing plays. Remember when Lou's teams would change the game through outstanding special team plays.

In conclusion, I think Kelly should let our new offensive coordinator call all offensive plays and Kelly should focus on improving our special teams and simplifying the defense.

Scott
 

Dizzyphil

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It is hard to be positive when we lost five starters so early in the season, but for some reason I am optimistic. We have fairly good depth in most positions and our team never quits.

Scott

It's about being negative towards BK as a whole. Not the fact of injury. I see where you are going but, nobody can control injuries.

BK has done a tremendous job IMO.
 

palinurus

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Contrary to the view that this thread is terrible or stupid or even ill-advised, I think it's a great discussion. For those of us who want the Irish to have top tier results, and yet keep the elements that make it, imo, the finest program in the country -- i.e., I think, all of us -- the issues raised are the most important ones to consider. I'd hope the administration and Swarbrick and Kelly are frequently asking themselves these questions and aren't so stubborn, or arrogant, or tunnel-vision-bound, that they don't think they need to be asked. A key element of both leadership and excellence is to ALWAYS be asking: What am I doing wrong? How can I be better? What can we change to improve and still be true to our principles? I certainly hope they are all asking these tough questions of themselves and each other.

Re where this program is, I think we've seen enough of a drop-off in the two years since the NC game to say that we're not in the top tier of five or ten schools that is always a challenger for the title. That was an ugly skein of games at the end of the regular season last year, and not the way the most elite programs play. And it showed in a few areas that seem to be customary of Kelly's teams:

1) injuries, which ties to/exposes issues of depth and perhaps technical coaching (teaching ability, direct and indirect through the coaches he hires);

2) turnovers; and

3) failure to make on the fly adjustments (maybe this goes to the "control freak" point).

I'm cognizant of how hard it is to find a coach who recognizes that this is a different sort of place and is willing to play by those rules. I think Kelly does get that and that's part of why he's as successful as he has been. I'm also cognizant of the academic challenges, travel challenges, recruiting challenges that make this the toughest job in college football, imo. The toughest jobs call for the best people. So we shouldn't be surprised that most people will fail in at least some of the aspects, and at least for some period of time (and some for most of the time).

Bottom line: I think Kelly possesses the intelligence and heart to do this job well enough to return the Irish to the top tier elite program it was under Holtz. He has shown enough of other skills to make us much better than any time SINCE Holtz left. But I do not know yet if he has a sufficient quantity of the other skills -- teaching ability, temperament, patience, flexibility, humility -- that it will require to take us to the very top again, as a consistently-elite program. And I don't know if he has the desire or willingness to further develop those traits, which is the sort of change I think we need in him.
 

pkt77242

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made me think of this...

81a317e7c8e0bcd1f94327823aef74f4476e3c6da9699376889124b5cf7af5bc.jpg

You really need the video

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/q7vtWB4owdE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Irish Insanity

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Frankly I don't have the time to read everything. That said, I don't get why a thread like this would surface when this team has been taking care of business up to this point. Injuries has nothing to do with Kelly's coaching in this instance.

Kelly cleaned this program up. His recruiting is excellent. The way he carries himself is excellent. His coaching is excellent, It's not perfect, but you will never get perfect. It does not exist. He brought us to a national championship. The expectations at ND are absolutely ridiculous. I think that if we make the playoffs once in a four years cycle, then it's mission accomplished. Anything else is bonus. Kelly has built a team and a culture that can achieve bonus or at least the minimum.
Personally, I can't remember seeing as much talent and just raw speed on an ND team as team 127 has since this new millenium began.
How can you believe we make the playoffs once in a 4 year cycle when every year besides the championship year we had at least 4 losses.
If this thread is really about "his tenure as a whole"... then riddle me this...

Would this thread even exist if we would have whooped UVA and Malik wasn't hurt? If no, then how can you honestly act like this is anything but a hand wringing thread filled with negative energy about our staff, simply because we have some adversity.
Let's not act like this discussion hasn't happened prior or that the thread being made is simply because we barely beat UVA.
truly believe a lot of folks have a '24 hour' memory.........


and sometimes a '24 hour' allegiance.
This thread is proof of the exact opposite. We remember how mediocre we were before this year, with the exception of 2012.
 

aubeirish

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How can you believe we make the playoffs once in a 4 year cycle when every year besides the championship year we had at least 4 losses.

Let's say we had the playoffs in 2012. That year would have been a playoffs year. That makes it 1 out of Kelly's first 4 years. The jury is still out for the following 4 years. It's playoffs or bust anyways for us, 3-4-5 losses does not matter that much to me as long as we have winning seasons.
 

RDU Irish

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And damn if Stephon Tuitt didn't go pro a year early - If he only didn't recruit and develop that top tier NFL defensive lineman that we haven't had for a decade we would have had more depth there too.
 

ThePiombino

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If this thread is really about "his tenure as a whole"... then riddle me this...

Would this thread even exist if we would have whooped UVA and Malik wasn't hurt? If no, then how can you honestly act like this is anything but a hand wringing thread filled with negative energy about our staff, simply because we have some adversity.

Hammer meet nail.
 

woolybug25

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Let's not act like this discussion hasn't happened prior or that the thread being made is simply because we barely beat UVA.

There was an active topic on the subject before UVA? Last I checked, there was nothing but Kool-aid drinking for the last 6 months. There were zero threads questioning BK. The last ones we had were... [gasp]... you guessed it!.... from the last time we faced adversity.

It's the same chicken-little, negative energy BS we go through every single time we have something tough happen. Suddenly people cannot resist wanting to fire the coach. Been the same story for as long as i've been alive.
 
C

Cackalacky

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There was an active topic on the subject before UVA? Last I checked, there was nothing but Kool-aid drinking for the last 6 months. There were zero threads questioning BK. The last ones we had were... [gasp]... you guessed it!.... from the last time we faced adversity.

It's the same chicken-little, negative energy BS we go through every single time we have something tough happen. Suddenly people cannot resist wanting to fire the coach. Been the same story for as long as i've been alive.

I did. I was selling BK last year. BVG too.
week-in-review-james-franco-gifs-kimye-uproxx.gif
 

gkIrish

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And yet, we are supposed to just accept your analysis of Brian Kelly's coaching failures? Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, your opinion is clouded by emotion and not really accurate?

I think I've developed a solid enough reputation on this site that I don't need to provide a list of coaching candidates for my opinions to be given some consideration.

In Lou Holtz's 5th year, he lost to a 1-3 Stanford team that was coming off of a loss to San Jose State. SAN JOSE STATE beat Stanford one week, and Stanford beat ND the next week. Is that where you would expect an ND team to be, in the 5th year of Holtz's tenure?

After 5 full seasons, Brian Kelly has exactly two less wins(45) than Coach Holtz had(47) after his 5th season. Holtz's winning pct was .770, to Kelly's .682. Holtz is clearly the winner there, but Kelly's numbers are at least in the same ballpark.

Lou won a championship prior to that 5th season so there's a lot less room to criticize him. Furthermore, in the 5 seasons following 1988, Lou's teams went:
12-1
9-3
10-3
10-1-1
11-1

If you don't see the difference between Lou and BKs tenure after their third seasons, not worth having a discussion. I could care less that Lou lost that one game you brought up because his resume isn't even remotely comparable to BK's AND BK has lost about 5 games like the one Lou lost to Stanford.

I get that you are not calling for his head now. However, you do seem awfully reluctant to acknowledge any of Kelly's accomplishments. That leads me to believe that perhaps you have already made up your mind, and are just leaving wiggle room in case the season turns out to be magical.

I think I've acknowledge plenty of BK's positives. He's a great recruiter for offensive skill positions and OL. He is a great representative of the university and has helped make a lot of positive changes for the program as a whole. We have consistently played pretty well against top opponents in big road games. He is much better coach than anyone we've had since Lou.

About 2 years ago I was as big of a supporter of BK as it gets. I even got into a huge fight with a good friend of mine over him and we haven't been talking much since.
 
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kmoose

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He's a great recruiter for offensive skill positions and OL. He is a great representative of the university and has helped make a lot of positive changes for the program as a whole. We have consistently played pretty well against top opponents in big road games.

That sounds like the foundation for a championship caliber program to me.
 

gkIrish

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That sounds like the foundation for a championship caliber program to me.

Agree to disagree. That's part of a foundation. Unfortunately he's missing about 2/3 of the other parts: flexibility, playcalling, defensive recruiting and defensive coach hires, special teams, in-game decision making (including time management), playing to the level of our opponents, losing games that should never be lost, relatively mediocre local recruiting, failing to identify "problem" players etc...
 

RDU Irish

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Agree to disagree. That's part of a foundation. Unfortunately he's missing about 2/3 of the other parts: flexibility, playcalling, defensive recruiting and defensive coach hires, special teams, in-game decision making (including time management), playing to the level of our opponents, losing games that should never be lost, relatively mediocre local recruiting, failing to identify "problem" players etc...

This is the most compelling post you have made yet. Although I disagree on the recruiting side. We have the horses on D they just are not being put in a position to succeed. Local recruiting sucks? Have you met Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day? I would love to see some stats but ND has never hung its hat on local recruits and Midwestern football has been in decline for so long it would be dumb to ignore the demographic shift south.
 

Irish Insanity

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There was an active topic on the subject before UVA? Last I checked, there was nothing but Kool-aid drinking for the last 6 months. There were zero threads questioning BK. The last ones we had were... [gasp]... you guessed it!.... from the last time we faced adversity.

It's the same chicken-little, negative energy BS we go through every single time we have something tough happen. Suddenly people cannot resist wanting to fire the coach. Been the same story for as long as i've been alive.
There was a thread last year. Probably the year before too.
And again, when has anyone called for his firing.
 
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gkIrish

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This is the most compelling post you have made yet. Although I disagree on the recruiting side. We have the horses on D they just are not being put in a position to succeed. Local recruiting sucks? Have you met Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day? I would love to see some stats but ND has never hung its hat on local recruits and Midwestern football has been in decline for so long it would be dumb to ignore the demographic shift south.

We have indeed recruited some tremendous individual players but we swing and miss on safeties way too much and D-Line and LB recruiting as a whole could be a lot better. Our D-Line was thin even before Jarron Jones went down. Way too many project players and not enough consistency.

I didn't say local recruiting "sucked." I said it was mediocre. We could do a lot better in Indiana and Michigan in particular. Ohio has been pretty good.
 
K

koonja

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I'll give GK this, our defensive recruiting isn't good. From BK's recruits, we're littered with 3-star players, two elite recruits (Jaylon/Redfield), and a few somewhat-big time players such as Trumbetti, Watkins, maybe Morgan and Barajas? I'm going off of the top of my head but there's not a lot of talent on our defense due to BK's recruiting. Championship teams are loaded with high 4-star guys. Most of the few 4-star guys we have come in well under .95 composite ranking.
 
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RDU Irish

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I look at our line - Day, Trumbetti, Hayes, Rochell, Cage, Tillery.... and then I try to think of the last time we had a rotation at DL and weren't relying on bulked up LBs like KLM. Think of how you felt when Nix or Ian Williams had to step off the field for even one play.

Our DL has not been this good for 20 years and that is after losing talents like Eddie Vanderdoesn't and Aaron Lynch that were birds in the hand. Ishaq, 5 star, Williams may not have panned out but it is not because we failed to recruit. Nix and Tuitt left with a year of eligibility left, who are the last DL that even had that option on the table?

As far as a roster littered with high four and five star guys, ain't happenin'. ND is a school first and, by and large, those guys will be bought by bag men and look for the quickest, easiest route to the NFL. We will have to develop mid tier 4 stars and rely on a handful of Jaylon Smiths who aspire to be more than just a good foobawl playa.
 

woolybug25

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I'll give GK this, our defensive recruiting isn't good. From BK's recruits, we're littered with 3-star players, two elite recruits (Jaylon/Redfield), and a few somewhat-big time players such as Trumbetti, Watkins, maybe Barajas? I'm going off of the top of my head but there's not a lot of talent on our defense due to BK's recruiting. Championship teams are loaded with high 4-star guys. Most of the few 4-star guys we have come in well under .95 composite ranking.

What in the hell are you talking about?

Outside of the obvious Jaylon/Redfield, he recruited:

Stephon Tuitt
Ishaq Williams
He who shant be named
Sheldon Day
Keivarea Russell
Jarron Jones
Isaac Rochell
Doug Randolph
Cole Luke
Andrew Trumbetti
Nick Watkins
Niles Morgan
Jay Hayes
Josh Barajas
Shaun Crawford
Jerry Tillery
Asmar Bilal

All 4 star or better, all with composites over .900. Say what you want about development, but if that isn't good enough recruiting for you then I don't know what you expect at a university with academic standards. He has brought more highly touted defensive talent to this team than the last three coaches combined.
 
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