QU for the Lawyers - Employee Contract

[woolybug25]

Let's say for instance, in order to receive my yearly bonus, I must be employed on Dec 1st of each year. In October of this year, I know with certainty I'm going to quit. Instead of quitting right away, I wait until Dec 2nd so I get the bonus. That situation seems similar to Koons. Given those circumstances, what do you feel I (or Koon) did wrong. Seems to me the bonus and the tuition reimbursement were earned according to the standards set forth by the employer.

Very different. You EARNED your bonus. It is incentive compensation.

Koon purposely asked for money when he knew he was leaving.

 

[koonja]

Very different. You EARNED your bonus. It is incentive compensation.

Koon purposely asked for money when he knew he was leaving.

I started the class before I knew I was leaving. I stayed until after the class finished so that I wouldn't have to repay, since Verizon's only requirement is that if you leave DURING the class, you pay them back.

 

[koonja]

Wooly you should email Verizon and tell them how their tuition policy is erroneous and causing them to get screwed over. They have no idea what they're doing.

 

[woolybug25]

Wooly you should email Verizon and tell them how their tuition policy is erroneous and causing them to get screwed over. They have no idea what they're doing.

Again... I don't care. I just told you what I thought of you as an employee. You're the one that wont let it go, and no amount of smart ass replies will change that fact.

 

[IrishinSyria]

My reading of what happened is that Verizon, with no strings attached, will pay for their (full-time?) employees to go to school. Koon was in an MBA program, and stayed with Verizon long enough to finish that program. Once he graduated, he left for a better job elsewhere.

I think you have a different read on what happened, otherwise I really don't see the outrage.

 

[koonja]

Again... I don't care. I just told you what I thought of you as an employee. You're the one that wont let it go, and no amount of smart ass replies will change that fact.

I'm sorry you don't think much of me as an employee. But I do, Verizon does, and my new job does, so frankly, I don't care.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm sorry you don't think much of me as an employee. But I do, Verizon does, and my new job does, so frankly, I don't care.

I don't believe you.

 

[kmoose]

I gotta get back to work, lol.

It's pretty obvious how dedicated an employee you are. Just keep on keepin' on.

 

[koonja]

I don't believe you.

Oh no, lol.

 

[Wild Bill]

Very different. You EARNED your bonus. It is incentive compensation.

Koon purposely asked for money when he knew he was leaving.

The difference seems to be he had to ask his employer for his while I simply received mine without request. I don't see that as a material difference under the circumstances. The only issue, IMO, is whether he was entitled to the benefit according to the terms of their agreement.

 

[woolybug25]

Oh no, lol.

Obviously you do care, considering you have spent the last two days trying to convince me that you aren't as unethical of an employee that you presented yourself as...

I still don't believe you...

 

[NDohio]

This conversation got me thinking. Do corporations get tax benefits for offering tuition plans? Are those benefits tied to whether there is a payback plan or not?

I know this doesn't add much to the should he have/shouldn't he have argument, just curious...

EDIT: Well crap - my question was answered while I answered my phone for a minute. Thanks Corry

 

[IrishinSyria]

The difference seems to be he had to ask his employer for his while I simply received mine without request. I don't see that as a material difference under the circumstances. The only issue, IMO, is whether he was entitled to the benefit according to the terms of their agreement.

Tuition Assistance | About Verizon

and the only reason he had to ask is because of what Corry posted, that Verizon only gets the tax benefits from offering tuition assistance if they make sure it's only used for tuition.

 

[koonja]

Obviously you do care, considering you have spent the last two days trying to convince me that you aren't as unethical of an employee that you presented yourself as...

I still don't believe you...

Wooly I think you're a smart guy, but kind of weird. So I really don't care.

I'm unethical and unemployable. Let's leave it at that and call it a Friday.

 

[kmoose]

My reading of what happened is that Verizon, with no strings attached, will pay for their (full-time?) employees to go to school. Koon was in an MBA program, and stayed with Verizon long enough to finish that program. Once he graduated, he left for a better job elsewhere.

I think you have a different read on what happened, otherwise I really don't see the outrage.

Perhaps you missed the entire premise of this thread? The one where koon came in looking for a loophole to get out of repaying a part of his relocation that he agreed to... His excuse is that he didn't understand that the taxes that Verizon paid on his behalf were a part of the package, and subject to repayment if he left before a certain point in time, which he did. But his understanding of the terms is immaterial. Once you sign that agreement, you are agreeing to the terms regardless of whether or not you understand them. If you agree to terms that you don't understand, then that's your issue, not the other party's. I wonder why, if he was just honestly moving on to a better position, he did not ask his previous HR people exactly what he would be responsible for, if he decided to move on to another job. He had two different chances to understand the terms.. 1) Before he signed the relocation agreement. and, 2) Before he accepted a new position after relocating.

 

[koonja]

Perhaps you missed the entire premise of this thread? The one where koon came in looking for a loophole to get out of repaying a part of his relocation that he agreed to... His excuse is that he didn't understand that the taxes that Verizon paid on his behalf were a part of the package, and subject to repayment if he left before a certain point in time, which he did. But his understanding of the terms is immaterial. Once you sign that agreement, you are agreeing to the terms regardless of whether or not you understand them. If you agree to terms that you don't understand, then that's your issue, not the other party's. I wonder why, if he was just honestly moving on to a better position, he did not ask his previous HR people exactly what he would be responsible for, if he decided to move on to another job. He had two different chances to understand the terms.. 1) Before he signed the relocation agreement. and, 2) Before he accepted a new position after relocating.

I would have taken the new job even if I knew all along I had to pay the taxes as well.

But this post is pretty much on. I did not know that I agreed to pay the taxes on top of my signing bonus, and so when Verizon asked me to repay what they gave me plus taxes, I asked people to read the letter because based on the verbiage, I did not think that I agreed to pay taxes on top of what I netted.

But I did (or it was implied). So I'm paying. This thread shouldn't have made it past post #8, lol.

 

[ND NYC]

so you were never relocated by Verizon at all?

 

[koonja]

Wooly I love you even though you're a hard ass! I'm out for the weekend, you guys keep it classy.

 

[koonja]

so you were never relocated by Verizon at all?

Yes, I worked there for 1 year and 8 months. The relo said that if I leave between 1-2 years, I repay 50% of what my relocation sum was.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Perhaps you missed the entire premise of this thread? The one where koon came in looking for a loophole to get out of repaying a part of his relocation that he agreed to... His excuse is that he didn't understand that the taxes that Verizon paid on his behalf were a part of the package, and subject to repayment if he left before a certain point in time, which he did. But his understanding of the terms is immaterial. Once you sign that agreement, you are agreeing to the terms regardless of whether or not you understand them. If you agree to terms that you don't understand, then that's your issue, not the other party's. I wonder why, if he was just honestly moving on to a better position, he did not ask his previous HR people exactly what he would be responsible for, if he decided to move on to another job. He had two different chances to understand the terms.. 1) Before he signed the relocation agreement. and, 2) Before he accepted a new position after relocating.

Right, he was asking for advice to make sure he wasn't paying more than he owed. And then he got jumped on for accepting the educational benefits. Nobody's disputing that he should pay Verizon what he contractually owes them.

 

[kmoose]

Right, he was asking for advice to make sure he wasn't paying more than he owed. And then he got jumped on for accepting the educational benefits. Nobody's disputing that he should pay Verizon what he contractually owes them.

Um........ he was:

I'm about 50/50 on understanding all of this. I might tell them I'm disputing the amount based on the fact that I was almost there for 2 years, and that it was never expressed in the agreement that I would be responsible for an amount greater than what I received. I am guessing they will say 'doesn't matter', but perhaps they will settle for less. What do I have to lose?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Right, which is exactly what I said. Notice that at that point in the conversation, he still didn't understand that he had in-fact received the money Verizon had paid in taxes for the understandable reason that he had never physically received that money, it went straight to the IRS.

Anyway, I'm out, I just think the idea that an employee owes a company like Verizon anything other than good-faith effort is crazy. The days when an employment contract was expected to take you to retirement are long gone. Companies act in their best interest, and employees have to do the same or they risk getting left behind.

 

[ND NYC]

Yes, I worked there for 1 year and 8 months. The relo said that if I leave between 1-2 years, I repay 50% of what my relocation sum was.

and did they pay you a "relocation bonus" (money to take a new job?)....or did they pay for your actual relocation (changing cities) cost?


some here think these are the same thing but I don't see how they could/should be.

 

[Circa]

and did they pay you a "relocation bonus" (money to take a new job?)....or did they pay for your actual relocation (changing cities) cost?


some here think these are the same thing but I don't see how they could/should be.

Exactly. Big difference with how and why the money was distributed.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Why is Wooly concerned about Koons dick moving.

 

[IrishinSyria]

So this is my understanding of the story of Koon. Koon, please correct me if I'm wrong about something here. Other posters, please highlight what you think is unethical, because I'm genuinely confused:


About 2 years ago, Koon was working in a job for some big company. He applied for a job with Verizon in another city. Verizon hired him and he moved, with Verizon picking up the tab. Koon knew that he would have to work for Verizon for 2 years to avoid paying them back any of that money.

Koon also knew that Verizon would pay up to $8,000/year for tuition. He got into a local MBA program and took night classes.

Fast forward a year and a half. Koon is still taking classes, but gets a job offer from a different company for a better job. He wants to take the offer, but decides to hold off for 2 months so he can finish his MBA. After getting the MBA (congrats, Koon) he quits his job at Verizon and accepts the new job.

As he expected, Verizon sends him the tab for 50% of his move. What surprises him is that included in that tab is (half of?) the taxes Verizon paid on his behalf for that move. Koon goes to IE to ask if he has to pay those taxes, mistakenly believing he never received that money.

 

[koonja]

So this is my understanding of the story of Koon. Koon, please correct me if I'm wrong about something here. Other posters, please highlight what you think is unethical, because I'm genuinely confused:


About 2 years ago, Koon was working in a job for some big company. He applied for a job with Verizon in another city. Verizon hired him and he moved, with Verizon picking up the tab. Koon knew that he would have to work for Verizon for 2 years to avoid paying them back any of that money.

Koon also knew that Verizon would pay up to $8,000/year for tuition. He got into a local MBA program and took night classes.

Fast forward a year and a half. Koon is still taking classes, but gets a job offer from a different company for a better job. He wants to take the offer, but decides to hold off for 2 months so he can finish his MBA. After getting the MBA (congrats, Koon) he quits his job at Verizon and accepts the new job.

As he expected, Verizon sends him the tab for 50% of his move. What surprises him is that included in that tab is (half of?) the taxes Verizon paid on his behalf for that move. Koon goes to IE to ask if he has to pay those taxes, mistakenly believing he never received that money.

Nailed it. I knew I had to repay 50% of the relation sum verizon gave me, just didn't realize I had to pay whatever taxes verizon had to pay to give me that relocation sum.

Also, I'm only half way through the MBA program. I was simply finishing one class.

Also, I'm not saying I'm not liable for the tax portion, but I think verizon did a poor job of making that clear. The language of the initial relocation agreement is In the first post if yoi want to read it.

 

[wizards8507]

Nailed it. I knew I had to repay 50% of the relation sum verizon gave me, just didn't realize I had to pay whatever taxes verizon had to pay to give me that relocation sum.

Verizon didn't have to pay it. They gave you money, i.e. income, i.e. YOU owed income taxes.

 

[koonja]

Verizon didn't have to pay it. They gave you money, i.e. income, i.e. YOU owed income taxes.

Jesus, you know what I mean. I'm too drunk to taste this chicken. Think whatever you want about me guys, just don't tase me bro! Have a good weekend..one more week!

 

[wizards8507]

Jesus, you know what I mean. I'm too drunk to taste this chicken. Think whatever you want about me guys, just don't tase me bro! Have a good weekend..one more week!

Lol, like I said I don't care about the tuition thing. I just want to be clear about the relocation.

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