'12 VA S C.J. Prosise (Notre Dame Signed LOI)

[Sherm Sticky]

Thanks guys


Sent via tapatalk

 

[irishfan]

Concussion. If we strike out at RB, he's a pretty obvious "emergency back" for next year should we have a rash of injuries.

Kid is a freak. I really think he has NFL-potential at the RB position. Sucks he wont get to play there barring injuries like you said.

 

[Cackalacky]

Excited for him. He really looked the part and beat a lot of good athletes out there today. Great job CJ.

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>CJ Prosise Ready to Be Unleashed for Notre Dame in 2015? - <a href="http://t.co/lecoDp7evL">http://t.co/lecoDp7evL</a> - latest update from <a href="http://t.co/Wt2bCj44ci">http://t.co/Wt2bCj44ci</a></p>— UHND.com (@uhnd) <a href="https://twitter.com/uhnd/status/551436705878650881">January 3, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[ResLife Hero]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>"He gets the ball in his hands, he’s got a chance to go.” <a href="https://twitter.com/KingPRO_20">@KingPRO_20</a> training at RB: <a href="http://t.co/b7VooZCGnG">http://t.co/b7VooZCGnG</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/BR_CFB">@BR_CFB</a> <a href="http://t.co/RwzpZzqbTw">pic.twitter.com/RwzpZzqbTw</a></p>— Mike Monaco (@MikeMonaco_) <a href="https://twitter.com/MikeMonaco_/status/580023233702801408">March 23, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Kinda wish he was still at safety but goddamn he's a beast.

 

[IrishLax]

Kinda wish he was still at safety but goddamn he's a beast.

IMO, this was the single biggest player development blunder in Kelly's tenure. In most instances the staff has been aces at putting the guys in the right place to succeed. But they mis-read the logjam at safety and now have one of the best athletes on the team basically playing a utility position that he isn't particularly suited for. He has never -- not in high school and not now -- had great hands or natural WR ability. He's also not built like and has never played "running back."

I think he can definitely be value added this fall on offense, but there is no question in my mind that with our depth/talent issues at safety he would've made a larger impact there. He was moved because he was the only one with the skills to play offense from that group, and it's going to turn out that his best chance of making it in the NFL is as a defender despite practically never playing the position in college.

 

[Luckylucci]

In his post practice interview he even mentioned that he still thinks about playing defense and what if he stayed there. Didn't sound like sour grapes as he seemed genuinely happy with playing offense and having the ball in his hands but like Lax stated above its really easy to watch this kid and think very good FS.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

IMO, this was the single biggest player development blunder in Kelly's tenure. In most instances the staff has been aces at putting the guys in the right place to succeed. But they mis-read the logjam at safety and now have one of the best athletes on the team basically playing a utility position that he isn't particularly suited for. He has never -- not in high school and not now -- had great hands or natural WR ability. He's also not built like and has never played "running back."

I think he can definitely be value added this fall on offense, but there is no question in my mind that with our depth/talent issues at safety he would've made a larger impact there. He was moved because he was the only one with the skills to play offense from that group, and it's going to turn out that his best chance of making it in the NFL is as a defender despite practically never playing the position in college.

Honestly, I can't blame the staff for moving him when they did. There were so many safeties on the roster at that time.

 

[dublinirish]

sure wasn't he training with the LB's for a time too? I remember him being in the LB photo as a frosh next to Manti

 

[Irish#1]

IMO, this was the single biggest player development blunder in Kelly's tenure. In most instances the staff has been aces at putting the guys in the right place to succeed. But they mis-read the logjam at safety and now have one of the best athletes on the team basically playing a utility position that he isn't particularly suited for. He has never -- not in high school and not now -- had great hands or natural WR ability. He's also not built like and has never played "running back."

I think he can definitely be value added this fall on offense, but there is no question in my mind that with our depth/talent issues at safety he would've made a larger impact there. He was moved because he was the only one with the skills to play offense from that group, and it's going to turn out that his best chance of making it in the NFL is as a defender despite practically never playing the position in college.

Lax, you make it sound like Kelly has these all the time and it's killing the team. Keep in mind that BK doesn't have a crystal ball so projecting the injuries and need to keep CJ on defense is hard to predict.

 

[Luckylucci]

Lax, you make it sound like Kelly has these all the time and it's killing the team. Keep in mind that BK doesn't have a crystal ball so projecting the injuries and need to keep CJ on defense is hard to predict.

I personally didn't take his post as stating that at all. Considering the kid himself still thinks about it, I feel there is a lot of validity to these thoughts.

 

[IrishLax]

Lax, you make it sound like Kelly has these all the time and it's killing the team. Keep in mind that BK doesn't have a crystal ball so projecting the injuries and need to keep CJ on defense is hard to predict.

Literally the next sentence in the post you quoted:

In most instances the staff has been aces at putting the guys in the right place to succeed.

So no, I don't think I make it sound like that haha

 

[yankeeND]

Yeah the way things have gone it would have been nice to have him back there, but he's such a dynamic athlete, I am glad he is playing offense. Hope he can sure those hands up a bit, and if he does, look out for some more explosive plays and TD's!

 

[Crazy Balki]

Back when Prosise switched over to offense, we had Farley, Redfield, Shumate, Baratti, Collinsworth and Hardy. Definitely Kelly's biggest developmental blunder is not redshirting Okwara.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Literally the next sentence in the post you quoted:

So no, I don't think I make it sound like that haha

I just don't think this was a blunder. At the time of the move it made sense and no one was slamming the table in disagreement.

 

[IrishLion]

I think if there's a blunder, it's that BK hasn't worked CJ into the gameplan more to this point.

Whenever he's given a shot, he does pretty well.

His hands are questionable, but much of it appears to be a confidence issue. With more opportunities, I think we would see his concentration and technique improve, alleviating some of the problem. He's never going to look as comfortable as Michael Floyd at WR, but he doesn't need to do that. He just needs to have enough confidence to be able to catch the ball in stride and away from his body. He's not a guy that you're going to ask to go high point the ball in pressure situations in a 50/50 scenario.

He's got better hands than Theo Riddick had, IMO, and Theo did pretty well catching the football. I think the staff has simply dropped the ball by not forcing more of the gameplan CJ's way.

But, who knows. Maybe the staff views it as a crapshoot every time the ball is in the air and heading towards CJ. They see much more of him than I do.

 

[Rocket89]

Developmental blunder is extremely harsh, if not the wrong terminology to use. Prosise being at safety is, at best, an interesting "what if" discussion but not that compelling.

Frankly, the staff hasn't shown much ability over the last couple years to develop a very good safety. And Prosise would have been a project on that side of the ball, to say nothing of being moved around a couple times and perhaps settling into a Onwualu-type of role. I think it's far from a sure thing that he'd be a starting safety.

In reality, C.J. just averaged 16.5 yards per touch on 39 overall touches. Talk about development, there it is! In comparison Tate averaged 14.3 in 2009 and Rocket 11.8 over his last two years. Now, Prosise's average likely goes down with more touches but to speak of a developmental blunder when he's blossoming into a major threat on offense doesn't seem quite right.

In fact, Prosise would be one of the players I'd point to that the staff has developed rather well thus far.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think the blunder is when looking at where is CJ's best possible position. Its pretty evident that he's not a natural pass catcher. Is that something you can get better at, of course but there are some guys that don't and they play defense. I completely agree with Lax that his future (NFL?) is at S, which I think he'd have a legitimate shot at if he played there. For a S he has plus size, speed/athleticism, and hands. As a WR he has average size, plus speed/athleticism, and below average hands. What is more attractive.

 

[nsisk157]

Back when Prosise switched over to offense, we had Farley, Redfield, Shumate, Baratti, Collinsworth and Hardy. Definitely Kelly's biggest developmental blunder is not redshirting Okwara.

I scratch my head constantly over that one... damn.

 

[Irish#1]

Literally the next sentence in the post you quoted:

So no, I don't think I make it sound like that haha

Fair enough.

 

[IrishLax]

I just don't think this was a blunder. At the time of the move it made sense and no one was slamming the table in disagreement.

Right, but we have the added value of hindsight. In hindsight, he should've been kept at safety. The thing was, he had traits the other guys didn't have, and they had a log jam at safety. That's why he was moved. They first had him in a "linebacker" role similar to what Slaughter had played on occasion (I think Kelly or Diaco dubbed it "star" or something with respect to Slaughter). Then they moved him to offense. And then once shit hit the fan at safety they considered moving him back but eventually didn't.

I don't really fault the logic of why Prosise was the guy they looked to move. It wasn't like it was a crazy choice given the information they had at the time. But in retrospect, when you look at the depth issues and quality of play issues the last two seasons, I think it's very easy to say it would have been better had he stayed at safety.

Here are his stats over two seasons:
10 attempts for 126 yards and a TD... 36/588/2TD receiving with about 1.5 catches a game. That's an impact, but not a particularly huge one, and IMO we have lots of depth at WR. Meanwhile, you have all of the aforementioned safety issues. At one point last year we practically ran out of bodies at the position. To me, that says he probably would've had much more value added back there.

I think the blunder is when looking at where is CJ's best possible position. Its pretty evident that he's not a natural pass catcher. Is that something you can get better at, of course but there are some guys that don't and they play defense. I completely agree with Lax that his future (NFL?) is at S, which I think he'd have a legitimate shot at if he played there. For a S he has plus size, speed/athleticism, and hands. As a WR he has average size, plus speed/athleticism, and below average hands. What is more attractive.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. He was moved for the good of the team... and then out of nowhere rash of issues popped up at the previously logjammed position. I think it's almost inarguable that he has more pro-upside at S than WR/RB. So now he's a (very explosive) weapon at WR... but that's a position that is now ironically probably the most logjammed on the team... and safety had SERIOUS depth issues last year. So you can play a guy at a position with his highest upside/worst depth chart or at a position with lower upside/most jammed depth chart.

I bet if you go back to 2012 and tell the coaches they're going to have the injuries, attrition, and lack of development we saw at safety 2013 & 2014 do they still move CJ to WR? I really doubt it.

 

[IrishLax]

Let me also clarify that I feel like at this point the ship has sailed and you definitely need to keep him on offense and try to maximize his production (which might be great, especially in a slot-back role if we run more option offense). I'm not saying this is a repeated error they're making every offseason or something. Just that in hindsight, it probably was best for him to stay on D, and it's one of the very few times this staff has moved someone and it hasn't worked out at an A+ level.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Given that he has helped us win games, it's hard for me to call it a complete blunder. Hindsight is rarely useful unless some of what you find could've been used for foresight. We couldn't have known the safety logjam would unjam so quickly and we still don't know if Prosise would've been a good safety.

Maybe he would've been trucked routinely for long runs. I do know one thing: he has helped us win games. Every year, we (I) claim we are going to be so much better but very few players really meet the expectations we set.

Prosise helped us beat LSU, among other teams and if that's all he does, I'll be pleased with his movement and performance.

But man...I wonder what he would've done at safety....

 

[Rocket89]

I think the blunder is when looking at where is CJ's best possible position. Its pretty evident that he's not a natural pass catcher. Is that something you can get better at, of course but there are some guys that don't and they play defense. I completely agree with Lax that his future (NFL?) is at S, which I think he'd have a legitimate shot at if he played there. For a S he has plus size, speed/athleticism, and hands. As a WR he has average size, plus speed/athleticism, and below average hands. What is more attractive.

You have to define 'attractive.'

If you're primarily concerned with where a player's greatest potential in playing in the NFL will be--which often seems to drive these discussions--then I think there's more legitimacy to Prosise being a safety, especially if you want to ignore his development at receiver which is a whole other discussion.

That's often the superfan perspective but the coaching staff should to do what's best for Notre Dame. Those NFL goals and college goals can overlap of course, but ND comes first.

 

[IrishLax]

You have to define 'attractive.'

If you're primarily concerned with where a player's greatest potential in playing in the NFL will be--which often seems to drive these discussions--then I think there's more legitimacy to Prosise being a safety, especially if you want to ignore his development at receiver which is a whole other discussion.

That's often the superfan perspective but the coaching staff should to do what's best for Notre Dame. Those NFL goals and college goals can overlap of course, but ND comes first.

I think everyone would agree that coaches should always do what's best for the team.

On the 2015 spring roster, Notre Dame currently has two total players (three if you count Turner) that are both 1) recruited scholarship players 2) completely healthy. Neither of them have played at a high level. So there isn't even a 2-deep of healthy bodies at the position, and the starters have not yet developed into great players. There is one incoming frosh projected as a full-time safety, and two players hopefully healthy in the fall (one likely near 100%, and the other unlikely to be able to contribute).

Given the depth chart, I think you can make a strong argument that the team would've been best served by Prosise being a RS senior with 3 years of development at safety rather than 2 years of development at a position where he arguably has lower upside, and there is a current 3/4 deep + incoming players that's pushing him to cross-training at RB. Granted, Prosise could be the best of the bunch AND dynamic as a slot-back type guy in a power spread AND Prosise has traits the others guys on the depth chart don't. So it's very possible that the team is best served with him on offense and he'll have a big year...

...but we're an injury or two away from calamity on the back end, and it's almost guaranteed that someone is going to be moving positions to safety by fall, which is the impetus for the whole discussion. If we were 2-deep with seasoned guys and had seen elite play from Redfield/Shumate this whole discussion would be a non-starter.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Right, but we have the added value of hindsight. In hindsight, he should've been kept at safety. The thing was, he had traits the other guys didn't have, and they had a log jam at safety. That's why he was moved. They first had him in a "linebacker" role similar to what Slaughter had played on occasion (I think Kelly or Diaco dubbed it "star" or something with respect to Slaughter). Then they moved him to offense. And then once shit hit the fan at safety they considered moving him back but eventually didn't.

I don't really fault the logic of why Prosise was the guy they looked to move. It wasn't like it was a crazy choice given the information they had at the time. But in retrospect, when you look at the depth issues and quality of play issues the last two seasons, I think it's very easy to say it would have been better had he stayed at safety.

Here are his stats over two seasons:
10 attempts for 126 yards and a TD... 36/588/2TD receiving with about 1.5 catches a game. That's an impact, but not a particularly huge one, and IMO we have lots of depth at WR. Meanwhile, you have all of the aforementioned safety issues. At one point last year we practically ran out of bodies at the position. To me, that says he probably would've had much more value added back there.



This is exactly what I'm getting at. He was moved for the good of the team... and then out of nowhere rash of issues popped up at the previously logjammed position. I think it's almost inarguable that he has more pro-upside at S than WR/RB. So now he's a (very explosive) weapon at WR... but that's a position that is now ironically probably the most logjammed on the team... and safety had SERIOUS depth issues last year. So you can play a guy at a position with his highest upside/worst depth chart or at a position with lower upside/most jammed depth chart.

I bet if you go back to 2012 and tell the coaches they're going to have the injuries, attrition, and lack of development we saw at safety 2013 & 2014 do they still move CJ to WR? I really doubt it.

In hindsight it was a poor decision. But, when it happened it was a good one. Kelly and his HS coach both stated at the time he has higher potential at WR.

What is a blunder is not putting him back to return punts.


Sent via tapatalk

 

[Irish YJ]

In hindsight it was a poor decision. But, when it happened it was a good one. Kelly and his HS coach both stated at the time he has higher potential at WR.

What is a blunder is not putting him back to return punts.


Sent via tapatalk

This
This all day long

 

[Luckylucci]

You have to define 'attractive.'

If you're primarily concerned with where a player's greatest potential in playing in the NFL will be--which often seems to drive these discussions--then I think there's more legitimacy to Prosise being a safety, especially if you want to ignore his development at receiver which is a whole other discussion.

That's often the superfan perspective but the coaching staff should to do what's best for Notre Dame. Those NFL goals and college goals can overlap of course, but ND comes first.

He's a more attractive prospect as a S. His traits are more suited for playing S than WR. He's an exceptional ATH playing WR. Doesn't run great routes and has below average ball skills. Precisely why we have him cross training at RB. Get the ball in his hands without having to catch it. Maybe better put this way, if I was recruiting him or drafting him as of right now, he's a very intriguing option at S and a non issue as a WR. The fact that he was productive at WR shows his high level athleticism but doesn't mean it's his best position. Myles Jack looks good runnin the ball but his best position is LB. Shaq Thompson is one heck of a RB as well but he's an NFL S. Just because you can do something with a moderate amount of success doesn't mean it should be the primary position.

I definitely think that BK and staff should do what's best for the team and not the player. However, what did last years team need more. A situational big play WR or a consistent FS? Based on the athleticism that we've seen from CJ, I feel pretty confident that if left at S he'd have played a major role on the team last year.

CJ's highest upside is at S and he would be best impacting the team at S as well. Hindsight is 20/20 and that's why nobody is freaking out. Just calling it like it is. With keeping in mind that the player himself admitted to thinking about this, I feel pretty good about my previous statements.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

He's a more attractive prospect as a S. His traits are more suited for playing S than WR. He's an exceptional ATH playing WR. Doesn't run great routes and has below average ball skills. Precisely why we have him cross training at RB. Get the ball in his hands without having to catch it. Maybe better put this way, if I was recruiting him or drafting him as of right now, he's a very intriguing option at S and a non issue as a WR. The fact that he was productive at WR shows his high level athleticism but doesn't mean it's his best position. Myles Jack looks good runnin the ball but his best position is LB. Shaq Thompson is one heck of a RB as well but he's an NFL S. Just because you can do something with a moderate amount of success doesn't mean it should be the primary position.

I definitely think that BK and staff should do what's best for the team and not the player. However, what did last years team need more. A situational big play WR or a consistent FS? Based on the athleticism that we've seen from CJ, I feel pretty confident that if left at S he'd have played a major role on the team last year.

CJ's highest upside is at S and he would be best impacting the team at S as well. Hindsight is 20/20 and that's why nobody is freaking out. Just calling it like it is. With keeping in mind that the player himself admitted to thinking about this, I feel pretty good about my previous statements.

Then why hasn't Kelly moved him back? He's had two seasons to do it and he has a bevvy of talented WRs competing for time. He doesn't need Prosise to play WR. I'm guessing there was an issue with him at safety that precluded him from going back. Perhaps he avoided contact or wasn't as instinctive as we all believe him to be.

I've also imagined Prosise staying at safety yet the coaches don't really seem all that interested in getting him back there. It's still not too late and we are relatively thin at the position, yet he's not moving.

That tells me the coaches know something we don't.