SAE at Oklahoma...

[tko]

How's Cooks feeling, wow.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Disgusting. Glad they're banned. Just saw two got expelled. Is that legally possible? I'm not mad about it, don't get me wrong. But I am curious...

 

[IrishLax]

Disgusting. Glad they're banned. Just saw two got expelled. Is that legally possible? I'm not mad about it, don't get me wrong. But I am curious...

Most places have you sign a code of conduct that paints with a pretty broad brush. This kind of hate speak could easily be construed within a code of conduct to be "harassment" or "promoting a hostile learning environment" or something like that.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Most places have you sign a code of conduct that paints with a pretty broad brush. This kind of hate speak could easily be construed within a code of conduct to be "harassment" or "promoting a hostile learning environment" or something like that.

Gotcha. Anyone think the ACLU storms in to the defense of these two and their "civil liberties"??

 

[Redbar]

One of the most underrated aspects of Notre Dame, IMO, is the prohibition of Greek life. It's easy to act like this is something isolated to this frat at OU but I know first hand of at least a half dozen* frats who do overtly racist crap, not to mention the penchant all frats have to get rapey. And when I say overtly racist, I'm talking "Old South" parties where they hire an entirely black wait staff... and don't even realize there is something messed up about that.

This is also why I don't understand how any self-respecting African American ever goes to play football at a place like Ole Miss (or really anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon line) with the culture down there.

*As of 2006-2010.

Totally agree, but boy did I offend a poster for saying this exact thing several months back.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Gotcha. Anyone think the ACLU storms in to the defense of these two and their "civil liberties"??

Yea, this seems pretty ripe for a 1a challenge

 

[Redbar]

Gotcha. Anyone think the ACLU storms in to the defense of these two and their "civil liberties"??

Yea, this seems pretty ripe for a 1a challenge

I bet all my vbucks that comment was meant to be taken facetiously, IrishinSyria.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I bet all my vbucks that comment was meant to be taken facetiously, IrishinSyria.

ACLU will pick some surprising fights in the name of free speech. ACLU On Redskins' Trademark Case: Government Shouldn't Force The Team To Change Its Name

 

[nsideirish]

I think it will be legally challenged.

No, a public university may not expel students for racist speech [UPDATED in light of the students' expulsion] - The Washington Post

 

[Bishop2b5]

This is also why I don't understand how any self-respecting African American ever goes to play football at a place like Ole Miss (or really anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon line) with the culture down there.

It's not hard to understand at all. The trick is to look at things as they actually are instead of basing your opinions on outdated stereotypes. Racism is no more common in the South these days than anywhere else in the country. Most Black's I've ever talked to about this who've lived in the South and the North say it's actually worse in the North. My own experience, having lived in Chicago, Alabama, and South Dakota, plus having traveled extensively around the country (I've been to each of the lower 48 states at least 3 times), and talking with people from all over the country, is that there's not any significant difference. You're about as likely to see or experience racism at any place in the country as you are any other.

 

[irishff1014]

This is a terrible thing to be happening anywhere. Good for the president for speak early quick and taking action.

 

[IrishLax]

It's not hard to understand at all. The trick is to look at things as they actually are instead of basing your opinions on outdated stereotypes. Racism is no more common in the South these days than anywhere else in the country.

This is an absolutely absurd and inaccurate lie. How many schools in the north have frats holding parties pretending to be plantation owners with all black "slave" wait staffs? Are you going to pretend that there aren't still regular pushes for SEGREGATED PROMS? You don't see that crap in the north. Trust me, I love the south (the Carolinas, specifically) but it's beyond ignorant to say what you just said.

Most Black's I've ever talked to about this who've lived in the South and the North say it's actually worse in the North.

This is either a lie or ignorant anecdote.

My own experience, having lived in Chicago, Alabama, and South Dakota, plus having traveled extensively around the country (I've been to each of the lower 48 states at least 3 times), and talking with people from all over the country, is that there's not any significant difference. You're about as likely to see or experience racism at any place in the country as you are any other.

Factually incorrect. There are studies that show southerners as a whole are significantly more racist, especially towards things like interracial marriage. Google it, I remember reading a study from like 2013 when the whole Paula Deen thing happened.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

It's not hard to understand at all. The trick is to look at things as they actually are instead of basing your opinions on outdated stereotypes. Racism is no more common in the South these days than anywhere else in the country. Most Black's I've ever talked to about this who've lived in the South and the North say it's actually worse in the North. My own experience, having lived in Chicago, Alabama, and South Dakota, plus having traveled extensively around the country (I've been to each of the lower 48 states at least 3 times), and talking with people from all over the country, is that there's not any significant difference. You're about as likely to see or experience racism at any place in the country as you are any other.

This^

 

[NDJimmy]

Where I went to school, there were frats that catered to particular personalities.

Eta Bita Pi - chubby guys with a sweet tooth

Sigma Phi Nothing - nihilists

I Felta Thi - those with a tendency toward sexual harrassment

 

[IrishSteelhead]

SAE at Oklahoma...

Hahaha. The video almost looks like a parody it's so ridiculous:

1) douchey Jay Cutler looking guy in tux leading chant
2) fraternity members from college in shitty flyover state
3) chant is on booze filled bus

*The only thing missing is a guy in a fishing shirt (who doesn't fish), pink chubby shorts, American Flag sunglasses, and Croakies yelling at a pledge who can't fit the entire pickle up his ass.

 

[Classic Irish]

Hahaha. The video almost looks like a parody it's so ridiculous:

1) douchey Jay Cutler looking guy in tux leading chant
2) fraternity members from college in shitty flyover state
3) chant is on booze filled bus

*The only thing missing is a guy in a fishing shirt (who doesn't fish), pink chubby shorts, American Flag sunglasses, and Croakies yelling at a pledge who can't fit the entire pickle up his ass.

LFMAO!!!!

 

[Classic Irish]

SAE has never been my favorite fraternity by any measure. They're typically made up of kids from exceptionally wealthy families. Nothing wrong with being wealthy, but way too many of their members are snobs and asses about it, thinking they're above the law, the normal rules of civilized and decent behavior, and just generally insufferable and entitled pricks. Johnny Manziel would make a perfect SAE.

They were overtly racist in my student days and the OU crap doesn't surprise me at all. I picture the typical SAE alums as Skip and Biff living off a trust fund and spending their days getting drunk at the club and laughing about the darkies. Lovely people.

I just saw a photo of U-Hauls pulled up to the frat house at OU as they're moving out. To your point, one kid drives what appears to be an Escalade.

 

[Cackalacky]

It's not hard to understand at all. The trick is to look at things as they actually are instead of basing your opinions on outdated stereotypes. Racism is no more common in the South these days than anywhere else in the country. Most Black's I've ever talked to about this who've lived in the South and the North say it's actually worse in the North. My own experience, having lived in Chicago, Alabama, and South Dakota, plus having traveled extensively around the country (I've been to each of the lower 48 states at least 3 times), and talking with people from all over the country, is that there's not any significant difference. You're about as likely to see or experience racism at any place in the country as you are any other.

Bless your heart.

This is full potato man...

 

[dshans]

My brother, three years my elder, was a student at Dartmouth from 1967 to 1971. He was a member of The Tabard.

A brief history from their website:

"The Tabard at Dartmouth College was founded in 1857 as a local fraternity named Phi Zeta Mu. The organization sought to associate itself with a national fraternity and was granted a charter as the Eta Eta chapter of Sigma Chi national fraternity in 1893. The Dartmouth chapter dissociated from the national organization in 1960 when the Sigma Chi membership policies continued to discriminate against minorities."

It goes without saying that we were both proud and happy with the history. The "local" admitted Jews and "Negroes" (keep in mind that this was 1960) and were faced with banishment by the "national." They took the "Fuck You" route and declared independence.

That is not to say that they weren't hard drinking misogynists, but "baby steps."

The lack of fraternities at Notre Dame was welcome. It relieved me of any number of artificial, bullshit restrictions and constrictions to a "normal" social life. Natural and pressure free bonds were free to be made.

Were this only case the in the past as well as today ...

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Based on empirical evidence—scholars never tire of tracking wealth distribution, voting patterns, and the like—you simply can’t state unequivocally that racism in the South is worse than it is anywhere else in the country. The land of Harpers Ferry nostalgics may yield plenty of horrifying anecdotes and a bitter historic record to support such a view, but constructing a quantifiable measure of racism turns out to be nearly impossible.

Above is from The New Republic. Now there's no arguing the anecdotes & the history that forever will be linked to "the South" but the point is like the one made above...there's no quantifiable measure of racism in the North vs the South. Hell, you can't even get agreement on which states comprise "the South" & which ones now comprise "the North". Then there's the degrees of racism: blatant, institutional, subversive, etc. To be absolute, one would have to get in the minds of every person in America and decipher if their thoughts on other races are deemed "racist" or not. And who is that ultimate "expert" who can label one person racist or not? I don't think any of us would argue that there are still racists in the halls of Ole Miss, the professors lounge at Harvard, the dorms of Berkely, etc. The biggest irony is that the first black POTUS was a cracker from the South and he was wildly supported by the power brokers & the overall electorate in the "North". It amuses me that the pseudo-intellectual, guilt-ridden, race baiters are the first to pull the lever for a Southerner to be the leader of the free world (LBJ, Jimmy Carter, Clinton twice). If the South were truly the more racist, then why not the huge exodus of people of color from the South to the North? If true, there's no good answer as if the South is as bad as the pseudo-intellectuals portray, then there should be zero excuse for those folks not being able to leave those states. Any excuse given simply admits that it truly isn't that bad as it obviously is not priority #1.

 

[pkt77242]

Above is from The New Republic. Now there's no arguing the anecdotes & the history that forever will be linked to "the South" but the point is like the one made above...there's no quantifiable measure of racism in the North vs the South. Hell, you can't even get agreement on which states comprise "the South" & which ones now comprise "the North". Then there's the degrees of racism: blatant, institutional, subversive, etc. To be absolute, one would have to get in the minds of every person in America and decipher if their thoughts on other races are deemed "racist" or not. And who is that ultimate "expert" who can label one person racist or not? I don't think any of us would argue that there are still racists in the halls of Ole Miss, the professors lounge at Harvard, the dorms of Berkely, etc. The biggest irony is that the first black POTUS was a cracker from the South and he was wildly supported by the power brokers & the overall electorate in the "North". It amuses me that the pseudo-intellectual, guilt-ridden, race baiters are the first to pull the lever for a Southerner to be the leader of the free world (LBJ, Jimmy Carter, Clinton twice). If the South were truly the more racist, then why not the huge exodus of people of color from the South to the North? If true, there's no good answer as if the South is as bad as the pseudo-intellectuals portray, then there should be zero excuse for those folks not being able to leave those states. Any excuse given simply admits that it truly isn't that bad as it obviously is not priority #1.

Are Southern States More Racist - Business Insider

The study discussed here seems to disagree With you.

 

[IrishLax]

Above is from The New Republic. Now there's no arguing the anecdotes & the history that forever will be linked to "the South" but the point is like the one made above...there's no quantifiable measure of racism in the North vs the South. Hell, you can't even get agreement on which states comprise "the South" & which ones now comprise "the North". Then there's the degrees of racism: blatant, institutional, subversive, etc. To be absolute, one would have to get in the minds of every person in America and decipher if their thoughts on other races are deemed "racist" or not. And who is that ultimate "expert" who can label one person racist or not? I don't think any of us would argue that there are still racists in the halls of Ole Miss, the professors lounge at Harvard, the dorms of Berkely, etc. The biggest irony is that the first black POTUS was a cracker from the South and he was wildly supported by the power brokers & the overall electorate in the "North". It amuses me that the pseudo-intellectual, guilt-ridden, race baiters are the first to pull the lever for a Southerner to be the leader of the free world (LBJ, Jimmy Carter, Clinton twice). If the South were truly the more racist, then why not the huge exodus of people of color from the South to the North? If true, there's no good answer as if the South is as bad as the pseudo-intellectuals portray, then there should be zero excuse for those folks not being able to leave those states. Any excuse given simply admits that it truly isn't that bad as it obviously is not priority #1.

The statement you quoted is not accurate, at all. There has been tons of scientific studies and surveys on the south that show that southern whites harbor far more racist attitudes than their northern counterparts.

On the whole, southern whites are more likely to be anti-interracial marriage, pro-segregation, express explicit racist attitudes, and reflect subconscious racist beliefs in responses to neutral stimuli than their northern equivalents. These are facts. They are not arguable. They are not anecdotes.

 

[Cackalacky]

The Solid South is historically known politically and economically as:

Since the Civil War and Reconstruction, there has been no more stronghold of political solidarity than these states know as the The Solid South

African Americand have moved and left the south. This occurred during the Great Migration:

The Great Migration was the mass movement of about five million southern blacks to the north and west between 1915 and 1960. During the initial wave the majority of migrants moved to major northern cities such as Chicago, Illiniois, Detroit, Michigan, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and New York, New York. By World War II the migrants continued to move North but many of them headed west to Los Angeles, Oakland, San Francisco, California, Portland, Oregon, and Seattle, Washington.

The first large movement of blacks occurred during World War I, when 454,000 black southerners moved north. In the 1920s, another 800,000 blacks left the south, followed by 398,000 blacks in the 1930s. Between 1940 and 1960 over 3,348,000 blacks left the south for northern and western cities.

The economic motivations for migration were a combination of the desire to escape oppressive economic conditions in the south and the promise of greater prosperity in the north. Since their Emancipation from slavery, southern rural blacks had suffered in a plantation economy that offered little chance of advancement. While a few blacks were lucky enough to purchase land, most were sharecroppers, tenant farmers, or farm labors, barely subsiding from year to year. When World War I created a huge demand for workers in northern factories, many southern blacks took this opportunity to leave the oppressive economic conditions in the south.

The northern demand for workers was a result of the loss of 5 million men who left to serve in the armed forces, as well as the restriction of foreign immigration. Some sectors of the economy were so desperate for workers at this time that they would pay for blacks to migrate north. The Pennsylvania Railroad needed workers so badly that it paid the travel expenses of 12,000 blacks. The Illinois Central Railroad, along with many steel mills, factories, and tanneries, similarly provided free railroad passes for blacks. World War I was the first time since Emancipation that black labor was in demand outside of the agricultural south, and the economic promise was enough for many blacks to overcome substantial challenges to migrate.

In additional to migrating for job opportunities, blacks also moved north in order to escape the oppressive conditions of the south. Some of the main social factors for migration included lynching, an unfair legal system, inequality in education, and denial of suffrage.

The great migration, one of the largest internal migrations in the history of the United States, changed forever the urban North, the rural South, African America and in many respects, the entire nation.

Sources:
James M. Gregory, The Southern Diaspora: How the Great Migrations of Black and White Southerners Transformed America (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2005); Florette Henri, Black Migration: Movement North, 1900-1920 (Garden City: Anchor Press, 1975); Carol Marks, Farewell—We’re Good and Gone: The Great Migration (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1989); Alferdteen Harrison, Black Exodus: The Great Migration from the American South (Jackson: University Press of Mississippi, 1991); The African-American Mosaic, A Library of Congress Resource Guide for the Study of Black History and Culture. Chicago: Destination for the Great Migration - The African-American Mosaic Exhibition | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

- See more at: Great Migration, The (1915-1960) | The Black Past: Remembered and Reclaimed

Now we find many educated African Americans are moving back to the suburbs as gentrification of urban areas is occurring causing rent and property values to skyrocket and also the New Migration is occurring because large southern cities are expanding job opportunities with cheaper costs of living. It's not just blacks moving down south either.

Just because all blacks have not left are are coming back is no indication of anything due to a lack of racism and I find that point vapid and feckless. IMO the reasons blacks are still in the south is more to do with jobs and family ties and most likely being impoverished so that moving a family is near impossible. That has little bearing on what discrimination they have to deal with. i grew up in Kentucky, lived in SC/NC, married into a rural Georgia family and historically the majority of my family is southern Alabama and SC. I have been on every backroad, lake, railroad town and BBq join from Virginia Beach to New Orleans and I can unequivocally say that there is no doubt in mymind racism is alive and well based on a lifetime of experiences here.

 

[Bishop2b5]

This is an absolutely absurd and inaccurate lie. How many schools in the north have frats holding parties pretending to be plantation owners with all black "slave" wait staffs? Are you going to pretend that there aren't still regular pushes for SEGREGATED PROMS? You don't see that crap in the north. Trust me, I love the south (the Carolinas, specifically) but it's beyond ignorant to say what you just said.



This is either a lie or ignorant anecdote.



Factually incorrect. There are studies that show southerners as a whole are significantly more racist, especially towards things like interracial marriage. Google it, I remember reading a study from like 2013 when the whole Paula Deen thing happened.

My apologies, Lax. I now realize that I've just made up my own experiences, been lied to by everyone who's shared their own experiences and opinions with me, and shouldn't have expressed my own opinion based on my clearly imagined experiences without first clearing them with you or simply just agreeing with you. You must forgive me, sir. I'm a simple, illiterate, inbred, uneducated Southerner who is clearly your intellectual and social inferior. You sir, have proven me a liar, a racist, and an ignorant buffoon and for that I'm indebted to you.

 

[IrishLax]

My apologies, Lax. I now realize that I've just made up my own experiences, been lied to by everyone who's shared their own experiences and opinions with me, and shouldn't have expressed my own opinion based on my clearly imagined experiences without first clearing them with you or simply just agreeing with you. You must forgive me, sir. I'm a simple, illiterate, inbred, uneducated Southerner who is clearly your intellectual and social inferior. You sir, have proven me a liar, a racist, and an ignorant buffoon and for that I'm indebted to you.

The first step is accepting your delusions are just that. Thank you.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The first step is accepting your delusions are just that. Thank you.

And yet you still don't understand why we think so many of you are pompous, ignorant, self-righteous, insecure assholes.

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[IrishLax]

And yet you still don't understand why we think so many of you are pompous, ignorant, self-righteous, insecure assholes.

Racism deniers like yourself are a problem. That's why I'm not mincing words. You're ignorant. You're taking personal anecdotes and experiences which are completely worthless in the grand scheme of things and representing them as fact of the way things are. It's scarily akin to the "happy slave" narratives perpetuated by many plantation owners so long ago...

The truth is that there are studies and facts that conclusively disprove everything you said. It's your right to speak your ignorant opinions, and it's my right to call you out for being completely uninformed. It is PROVEN that southern whites are more racist than whites elsewhere in the country.

It takes a special kind of person to think an area of the country famous for segregated proms in 2014 is "no less racist" than anywhere else. Never go full potato.

 

[IrishinSyria]

To be fair to bishop, there are actually areas in the ole south that aren't any more racist than the north. There's still a strong correlation in whether or not an area had a high slave density and the presence of racist attitudes today.

Also, by "complete coincidence" whites living in those old slave owning areas are far more likely to vote Republican than whites living in non-slave holding parts of the South.

The team of political scientists found that white Southerners who live today in the Cotton Belt where slavery and the plantation economy dominated are much more likely to express more negative attitudes toward blacks than their fellow Southerners who live in nearby areas that had few slaves.

 

[NDokie13]

Here's a link to OU's star linebacker Eric Striker's reaction on snapchat. Clearly the players aren't happy with the situation. Caution, the language is NSFW.

http://youtu.be/LAL3jCnf4kI

Something tells me that if something were to happen here at Notre Dame that would cause one of our players to react publicly like that, we'd be in full on meltdown mode.