Students at UC Irvine vote to ban American flag

[Irish YJ]

I can't imagine Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, etc advocating great support for Israel. I think they'd say alliances with countries founded on religious motivations are a bad idea, considering their contribution to the progress of civilization was creating the first nation founded on separating religion and government.

Agreed, but they probably would not have a friendly meet with Hamas, host a two week event called "Israel: Politics of genocide", or say that the Zionist Jew is the party of Satan.

 

[ulukinatme]

So yeah, what is the confederate flag a tribute too? White power and racism in my opinion.

They don't fly the flag to promote slavery or racism. The flag is flown in memory of soldiers that died, people of South Carolina. It's been 150 years, and the flag means more than just "slavery" today. There are a lot of people that fly the flag today to identify as "country" or "redneck," but it doesn't mean they're racist. It's evolved into some kind of symbol of Southern pride, you can find it flying all over the South, it's not like these states support slavery still.

It was an ugly time, but the Civil War was driven by more than just race, race just happened to be a convenient reason to go to war once the South seceded. There were a number of economic and political reasons that really drove the war too. Lincoln certainly believed slavery was wrong, but he wasn't an abolitionist. He struggled with creating the Emancipation Proclamation if I recall, and he didn't believe blacks deserved the same freedoms as whites.

 

[phgreek]

IMO this is more about global humanism than anti-Americanism. Freedom of expression is the humanist interpretation of "freedom of speech". They claim that true freedom of expression occurs in the absence of symbols or environments which limit the ability of a person truly express themselves. In this case the flags and related iconology impart restrictions (good or bad... Doesn't matter) on expression by, being an ever present bias. That they removed these items is no different really than other iconology. If it's all flags I have no problem with it. If it just the U.S. flag then they need to at least be consistent or GTFO.

It's not really a big deal. It's similar to the idea that religion cannot be imposed on another in order to have true expression of ones religion. You are free to express your religion but not at the diminishment of anothers right to be religious or not.

overdeveloped sense of empathy is pathological...and more than anything, THATS what most of this shit is. I'm not driven to want to squash these people for taking down the flag...yea its offensive, but to me the big story is, these people are terminally unemployed... there is no way on God's green earth I'd hire one...how will they COMPETE. Their outlook is crippling to the point that you could't count on them to do ANYTHING. I don't care that they have a liberal perspective...I care they are functionally disabled. God help us.

 

[Cackalacky]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

I cannot say which is worse one way or the other. But the confederate flag (or really the Battle flag of Northern Virginia) issue for South Carolina always has been one of "states rights." It has never been about slavery according to those who claim "heritage not hate". It still flies in many yards and is on many bumper stickers here. You will be hard pressed to convince these people that it represents anything other than rebellion against a tyrannical government and a loss of states rights and economics, not personal freedoms.

I could right a dissertation on it but that is the gist. So yes people here are still upset that the flag was moved off the The Capital.

Here is our own governor's (female, Indian-American) opinion from the gubernatorial debate:

But one of the people who’s okay with the flag is South Carolina’s Republican Governor Nikki Haley, who defended the flag’s presence during last night’s gubernatorial debate, on the grounds that it hasn’t affected the economy. (The flag is dedicated to the men who served and died for South Carolina during the Civil War.)

“What I can tell you is over the last three-and-a-half years, I spent a lot of my days on the phones with CEOs and recruiting jobs to this state,” Haley said. “I can honestly say I have not had one conversation with a single CEO about the Confederate flag.”

“But we really kind of fixed all that when you elected the first Indian-American female governor. When we appointed the first African-American U.S. senator, that sent a huge message.”

 

[Cackalacky]

If I remember correctly, the Confederate flag at the South Carolina state capitol is there along with a monument to the soldiers that died for the Confederacy during the war. I don't believe it's a symbol that South Carolina wants to succeed from the Union or anything, nor are they trying to promote slavery still. The flag certainly has a terrible past, but we've certainly come a long way since the Civil War. I think people make it out to be more than it is.

Still, even if South Carolina was flying the Confederate flag as something other than a tribute, that doesn't change the fact they have numerous other US flags flying on premises. The fact that UC-Irvine is removing the flag and not allowing it to be displayed is worse imo. A lot of men died and continue to die to give those students the freedom to make stupid choices. It's certainly their right to make that choice, but it feels like they're spitting in the face of those men who fought for that freedom.

The flag went up in 1962 to commemorate the Civil War Centennial. There it stayed on the dome, through the Civil Rights Movement, until it was removed off the building to a monument site just near the state house. Last polls I have seen show a strong racial divide against the flag flying at all, even next to monument near the state house. Obviously whites want it to stay and blacks want it gone completely. But our governor says it's ok because " economics".

 

[Booslum31]

The flag went up in 1962 to commemorate the Civil War Centennial. There it stayed on the dome, through the Civil Rights Movement, until it was removed off the buding to a monument site just near the state house. Last polls I have seen show a strong racial divide against the flag flying at all, even next to monument near the state house. Obviously whites want it to stay and blacks want it gone completely. But our governor says it's ok because " economics".

I really like your governor...but that's wierd.

 

[Cackalacky]

overdeveloped sense of empathy is pathological...and more than anything, THATS what most of this shit is. I'm not driven to want to squash these people for taking down the flag...yea its offensive, but to me the big story is, these people are terminally unemployed... there is no way on God's green earth I'd hire one...how will they COMPETE. Their outlook is crippling to the point that you could't count on them to do ANYTHING. I don't care that they have a liberal perspective...I care they are functionally disabled. God help us.

Not sure I am following this. These kids aren't stupid. I guess they have to be pretty smart to go to UCI in the first place.

FTR I am neither supporting nor defending them, just to trying to add to the discussion and make some sense of this weird story.

 

[DonnieNarco]

They don't fly the flag to promote slavery or racism. The flag is flown in memory of soldiers that died, people of South Carolina. It's been 150 years, and the flag means more than just "slavery" today. There are a lot of people that fly the flag today to identify as "country" or "redneck," but it doesn't mean they're racist. It's evolved into some kind of symbol of Southern pride, you can find it flying all over the South, it's not like these states support slavery still.

It was an ugly time, but the Civil War was driven by more than just race, race just happened to be a convenient reason to go to war once the South seceded. There were a number of economic and political reasons that really drove the war too. Lincoln certainly believed slavery was wrong, but he wasn't an abolitionist. He struggled with creating the Emancipation Proclamation if I recall, and he didn't believe blacks deserved the same freedoms as whites.

The South seceded because of slavery. It was created to preserve the practice of it. That's why it was written into the Constitution and the reasons for secession for most states explicitly mentioned slavery. You are attempting to re-write history.

Five myths about why the South seceded - The Washington Post

 

[nsideirish]

Not sure if already posted--but this was vetoed and called "misguided" by the university.

UCI student executive council vetoes flag resolution | UCIrvine News

 

[DonnieNarco]

People are so desperate to re-write history about the Confederates and the Civil War just to keep a shitty flag.

 

[Irish YJ]

Not sure if already posted--but this was vetoed and called "misguided" by the university.

UCI student executive council vetoes flag resolution | UCIrvine News

 

[Bluto]

They don't fly the flag to promote slavery or racism. The flag is flown in memory of soldiers that died, people of South Carolina. It's been 150 years, and the flag means more than just "slavery" today. There are a lot of people that fly the flag today to identify as "country" or "redneck," but it doesn't mean they're racist. It's evolved into some kind of symbol of Southern pride, you can find it flying all over the South, it's not like these states support slavery still.

It was an ugly time, but the Civil War was driven by more than just race, race just happened to be a convenient reason to go to war once the South seceded. There were a number of economic and political reasons that really drove the war too. Lincoln certainly believed slavery was wrong, but he wasn't an abolitionist. He struggled with creating the Emancipation Proclamation if I recall, and he didn't believe blacks deserved the same freedoms as whites.

So they fly that flag in remembrance of those who fought to defend white power and slavery and or to prove they are dipshit rednecks who pine for a time when "niggers" knew their place. Great.

 

[ulukinatme]

The flag went up in 1962 to commemorate the Civil War Centennial. There it stayed on the dome, through the Civil Rights Movement, until it was removed off the buding to a monument site just near the state house. Last polls I have seen show a strong racial divide against the flag flying at all, even next to monument near the state house. Obviously whites want it to stay and blacks want it gone completely. But our governor says it's ok because " economics".

You obviously know a lot more about the history being from SC, I'll defer to your expertise. I was always under the impression the flag was up to commemorate the American lives lost in the Civil War and not a tribute to slavery, but the flag certainly has a grim past and means different things to everything. You're right, it's certainly not like the flag is only flown at the capitol in SC, it's all over the South as a symbol of pride and not meant as a symbol of racism imo, but I've never lived in South. Born and raised in Ohio all my life. In the end, people will see what they want to see. Some can't see past the fact the flag was the symbol of a country that endorsed slavery (Although the war was about more than that). Others see that the flag has evolved, like many things, over the last 150 years to mean something different. It'll probably always be a controversial symbol.

 

[DonnieNarco]

Everything the South did in secession traces back to slavery. They seceded over slavery. They seceded because of white supremacy beliefs.

 

[IrishLax]

I hate the "was the civil war fought over slavery" debate, because it's actually an argument of semantics.

It was fought over states' rights... whether states' were going to continue to have the rights they thought they did per the Tenth Amendment when they signed up for the union, or if they were going to have to defer to the Article VI supremacy clause on a matters they didn't think should be governed by the federal government. The right that they cared enough about to go to war was slavery. So you can't separate the two from each other. It was about states' rights... to make slavery laws.

 

[DonnieNarco]

That was the one state's right they cared about. They took away others, such as the right for states to let non-citizens vote or the right for states to establish fugitive slave laws.

 

[Cackalacky]

You obviously know a lot more about the history being from SC, I'll defer to your expertise. I was always under the impression the flag was up to commemorate the American lives lost in the Civil War and not a tribute to slavery, but the flag certainly has a grim past and means different things to everything. You're right, it's certainly not like the flag is only flown at the capitol in SC, it's all over the South as a symbol of pride and not meant as a symbol of racism imo, but I've never lived in South. Born and raised in Ohio all my life. In the end, people will see what they want to see. Some can't see past the fact the flag was the symbol of a country that endorsed slavery (Although the war was about more than that). Others see that the flag has evolved, like many things, over the last 150 years to mean something different. It'll probably always be a controversial symbol.

You illuminate the real dilema in this situation here. The monument is for South Carolinians who died in the Civil War, or War of Northern Aggression). Here, its not a symbol of racism or slavery for many whites and is for many blacks. There still is real pride for those who fought in the Ccivil War just like you would be of your grandpa fighting in WWII. It is a real thing.

Also, I have made several posts on the Solid South bloc and its political capital prior to and after the Civil War. We are talking a tight cultural group joined in solidarity against percieved federal usurpers that occurred well before the 1860s. Much of it was economical, and states rights issues according to them but obviously included slavery, (which was and was not the main issue). I wish I could explain it better. People really think that although slavery and abolitionists and free states versus slave state admittance to the union were part players, the main gripe against the federal government was its failure to uphold the two main principles of the constitution.

So in the end we do have the narrative from whites that it is pride and heritage and one of disgraceful slavery from virtualy everyone else. People who dismiss these things as myths are grossly underestimating the depth and scope of the history.

 

[ulukinatme]

So they fly that flag in remembrance of those who fought to defend white power and slavery and or to prove they are dipshit rednecks who pine for a time when "niggers" knew their place. Great.

Not all confederates were racists, hate mongers, and white supremacists. You're stereotyping the entire South. It was certainly a major issue of the war, but the Civil War was more than just slavery.

 

[DonnieNarco]

The ones who decided to secede were white supremacist racist hate mongers. That's why the Texas justification for secession was "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."

 

[IrishinSyria]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

This is easy.

In situation A, when people walk into a room, their eyes will be drawn to... something other than a bunch of flags. They won't be offended by the language used in the resolution or by the absence of the flags, because you don't expect to see a flag in every room you walk into, so the absence of flags won't be shocking or glaring or offensive.

On the other hand, a significant number of (taxpaying) South Carolina citizens reasonably view the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism and of their ancestors' slavery. When they see the flag flying, they are not only reminded of the history behind the flag, but also that the politicians representing them care so little about their opinion that they were willing to use tax dollars to fly the thing over the seat of state government.

It hardly matters, to me, that people are capable of arguing that the Confederate flag does not necessarily represent slavery. It is enough to me to be able to say that a reasonable person can believe that it does, and can be offended by it, to say that it's probably not a good idea to display it so prominently in a public space.

There's another approach I might take: both decisions are idiotic. One is being made by a handful of college students. The other is made by a state government. We should expect better from our elected officials.

 

[phgreek]

Not sure I am following this. These kids aren't stupid. I guess they have to be pretty smart to go to UCI in the first place.

FTR I am neither supporting nor defending them, just to trying to add to the discussion and make some sense of this weird story.

Is there such a thing as underdeveloped sense of empathy...yea, it shows in a number of societal and individual ills.

...overdeveloped sense of empathy Basically leads to non-functional individuals....unless they grow out of it...their value system doesn't mesh real well with a world that basically has a loser or 10 every time you win...its a tough real world, as you well know.

 

[Irish#1]

*poof*

Did someone summon me? Am I supposed to care that bunch of idiot college students voted to remove all flags from some room somewhere? Seems like free speech in action to me, so it's got my thumbs up.

It's also free speech to fly a flag.

 

[IrishinSyria]

It's also free speech to fly a flag.

Agree. But the question of whether or not the student government wants to hang flags on the student government building walls seems more like an interior decoration issue (no italics).

 

[irishff1014]

i know with the 2 colleges in our area they get funding from both state and county levels. If this is the case there they should lose all of that. I dont care if you are white, black, green, tan, democrat, republican, independant, rich,poor, you are disrespectful to the many women and men that fight for or have faught for our rights that we have. Yes we all have different views but we are still better then many other nations. But thats what this country is becoming.

 

[Grahambo]

Honest question for you all, currently being debated over beers on my end.

What is worse:

A) UC-Irvine students voting to remove the American flag from the lobby of their student government center, or

B) the South Carolina state capitol having a Confederate flag up?

What was your stance?

 

[NOLAIrish]

i know with the 2 colleges in our area they get funding from both state and county levels. If this is the case there they should lose all of that. I dont care if you are white, black, green, tan, democrat, republican, independant, rich,poor, you are disrespectful to the many women and men that fight for or have faught for our rights that we have. Yes we all have different views but we are still better then many other nations. But thats what this country is becoming.

Keep in mind this is the student union of the campus and not the formal administration.

The administration at UCI actually opposed the measure and asked the student union "executive cabinet" to veto. Yesterday, the executive cabinet did just that.

 

[IrishinSyria]

i know with the 2 colleges in our area they get funding from both state and county levels. If this is the case there they should lose all of that. I dont care if you are white, black, green, tan, democrat, republican, independant, rich,poor, you are disrespectful to the many women and men that fight for or have faught for our rights that we have. Yes we all have different views but we are still better then many other nations. But thats what this country is becoming.

Would you justify this because the language in the resolution is disrespectful or because there should be an affirmative obligation to hang flags in specific places that comes with government funding?

 

[kmoose]

Agree. But the question of whether or not the student government wants to hang flags on the student government building walls seems more like an interior decoration issue (no italics).

My problem with it is that they specifically stated

“Designing a culturally inclusive space aims to remove barriers that create undue effort and separation by planning and designing spaces that enable everyone to participate equally and confidentially,”

Because the flag represents a country that could NEVER be referred to as a "melting pot", due to its long history of shunning immigrants, right?

 

[IrishinSyria]

My problem with it is that they specifically stated



Because the flag represents a country that could NEVER be referred to as a "melting pot", due to its long history of shunning immigrants, right?

I mean, I agree that the preamble to the resolution was kind of douchey, but is it really newsworthy or outrage worthy that a couple of college kids tried to channel their inner Chomsky?

I think the news outlets that picked this story up tried to sensationalize it by presenting it as "UCI votes to BAN the American Flag". But if you look at what actually happened, it's 1) UCI students write stupid preamble and 2) vote to remove flags from the wall of one room (administration says no). It just seems like a non-story to me, unless you stretch the facts to present it in the worst possible way.

 

[kmoose]

I mean, I agree that the preamble to the resolution was kind of douchey, but is it really newsworthy or outrage worthy that a couple of college kids tried to channel their inner Chomsky?

I think the news outlets that picked this story up tried to sensationalize it by presenting it as "UCI votes to BAN the American Flag". But if you look at what actually happened, it's 1) UCI students write stupid preamble and 2) vote to remove flags from the wall of one room (administration says no). It just seems like a non-story to me, unless you stretch the facts to present it in the worst possible way.

True. I have no problem with that.