[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[gkIrish]

Jackie Mac calling for BB to be suspended for the Super Bowl.

The chatter I'm hearing is that the NFL has Bellicheat dead to rights and they are figuring out how to handle this.

Remember when Bellicheat told the Ravens to "know the rules" after the Ravens whined about the eligible receiver thing. Let's see what he says now.

 

[wizards8507]

Brad Johnson Paid Some Guys To Doctor 100 Footballs Before Super Bowl

 

[Rhode Irish]

The chatter I'm hearing is that the NFL has Bellicheat dead to rights and they are figuring out how to handle this.

Remember when Bellicheat told the Ravens to "know the rules" after the Ravens whined about the eligible receiver thing. Let's see what he says now.

Dead to rights on another speeding ticket-level infraction. It is a huge blow to his reputation, but in terms of rules violations this one isn't very significant. Should probably be a late-round pick and a 50k fine, although Goodell has a tendency to spaz out when people are watching so who knows.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Listening to Mike Francesca here in NY on the radio and he says the NFL has inspected all 24 balls. He is about as well connected to the NFL as a member of the media can be.

That's what I read earlier. And that none of the 12 Indy balls had an issue. I assume those 12 plus the other NE ball must have been exempt from scientific air pressure vs temp laws.

Jackie Mac calling for BB to be suspended for the Super Bowl.

Cowherd, a huge BB/Pats/Patriots supporter also mentioned the same. But I think he was half sarcastic.

 

[arrowryan]

Dead to rights on another speeding ticket-level infraction. It is a huge blow to his reputation, but in terms of rules violations this one isn't very significant. Should probably be a late-round pick and a 50k fine, although Goodell has a tendency to spaz out when people are watching so who knows.

I agree that it didn't have an impact in the game on Sunday, but I highly doubt this was the first time they have done something like this. Also, this is BB's second time cheating (that we know of), so I think they need to come down a little harder this time

 

[gkIrish]

ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots' footballs were tested at the half, re-inflated at that time when they were found to be low, then put back in play for the second half and then tested again after the game. All of the balls the Colts used met standards, according to the report.

I really thought wizards was onto something when he thought they didn't check the Colts' balls and the cold had everything to do with it. It's science.

 

[tko]

Colts tight end on Deflategate: Patriots were 'simply the better team' - CBSSports.com

 

[brick4956]

If Belichick is found to have order or knowledge of the deflated footballs he needs to be given the Pete Rose treatment

 

[wizards8507]

I really thought wizards was onto something when he thought they didn't check the Colts' balls and the cold had everything to do with it. It's science.

Deflate-Gate: Could weather have played a role in deflated balls?

This assumes an initial indoor temperature of 68 degrees and a kickoff temperature of 50 degrees. If you substituted a higher indoor temperature (72 isn't out of the question) and then the field temperature at the end of the game (40 degrees? 30?) then the drop would be much more significant.

 

[Irish Insanity]

If Belichick is found to have order or knowledge of the deflated footballs he needs to be given the Pete Rose treatment

Without a paper trail, it won't happen. If he knew or asked for it to be done, someone will take the fall for him.

 

[edgesofsanity]

Deflate-Gate: Could weather have played a role in deflated balls?

This assumes an initial indoor temperature of 68 degrees and a kickoff temperature of 50 degrees. If you substituted a higher indoor temperature (72 isn't out of the question) and then the field temperature at the end of the game (40 degrees? 30?) then the drop would be much more significant.

“The pressure loss due to the temperature alone cannot be the issue in my mind,” said BC physics professor Michael J. Naughton, after plugging temperature data into a formula that calculates pressure loss. “If the footballs were notably lower pressure, then the only way it could have happened was if someone went in and stuck a needle in the ball and let two-thirds of the gas out, which means it is now up to the NFL to follow the chain of command — but no logical physics can explain the kind of pressure loss they’re talking about.”

Link

 

[Rhode Irish]

If Belichick is found to have order or knowledge of the deflated footballs he needs to be given the Pete Rose treatment

Can you explain this to me? I'm still curious about how some rules violations are just rules violations but some are considered cheating.

It is ironic that you use a baseball reference since that is a sport where teams have been stealing signs and doctoring the ball for over a hundred years. They don't ban people for that stuff.

 

[wizards8507]

Can you explain this to me? I'm still curious about how some rules violations are just rules violations but some are considered cheating.

It is ironic that you use a baseball reference since that is a sport where teams have been stealing signs and doctoring the ball for over a hundred years. They don't ban people for that stuff.

That's gkIrish's position. Aaron Rodgers shouldn't be punished for over inflating balls because he does his cheating prior to the ball inspections and then gets caught and the balls are deflated.

 

[gkIrish]

Deflate-Gate: Could weather have played a role in deflated balls?

This assumes an initial indoor temperature of 68 degrees and a kickoff temperature of 50 degrees. If you substituted a higher indoor temperature (72 isn't out of the question) and then the field temperature at the end of the game (40 degrees? 30?) then the drop would be much more significant.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

The Colts and Patriots balls were both checked before the game and at halftime. Both were compliant in the pre-game inspection. Only one was noncompliant at halftime. So it must have been colder on the Patriots sideline.

 

[SoDakDomer]

Its LeGarrette Blount's fault, he took the air out of the ball by pounding the rock. Too many puns?

GAME LOG RUSHING
DATE OPP RESULT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Sun 1/18 vs IND W 45-7 30 148 4.9 22 3

 

[ACamp1900]

If Belichick is found to have order or knowledge of the deflated footballs he needs to be given the Pete Rose treatment

The Patriots organization should get the Chivas USA treatment, and all of their fans should be forced to film a public apology before being allowed to ever watch sports again...

 

[gkIrish]

That's gkIrish's position. Aaron Rodgers shouldn't be punished for over inflating balls because he does his cheating prior to the ball inspections and then gets caught and the balls are deflated.

First of all I never said he shouldn't be punished. I only said it was not the same thing. If you think both situations are equally unethical, then that's stupid.

Rodger situation would be a slap on the wrist if I were the NFL commissioner. Some type of small fine. He didn't actually break any rules.

The Patriots actually broke the rules.

 

[wizards8507]

First of all I never said he shouldn't be punished. I only said it was not the same thing. If you think both situations are equally unethical, then that's stupid.

Rodger situation would be a slap on the wrist if I were the NFL commissioner. Some type of small fine. He didn't actually break any rules.

The Patriots actually broke the rules.

They both broke the EXACT SAME RULE (if the Patriots broke any rules). Rodgers just got caught first, if he even gets caught at all. He stated that he's not caught every time so he's actually PLAYED games with an overinflated ball which he believes provides him with a competitive advantage.

 

[gkIrish]

They both broke the EXACT SAME RULE (if the Patriots broke any rules). Rodgers just got caught first, if he even gets caught at all. He stated that he's not caught every time so he's actually PLAYED games with an overinflated ball which he believes provides him with a competitive advantage.

OMG please tell me you are trolling I can't even handle it anymore.

THE RULE IS THAT YOU CANNOT ALTER BALLS AFTER INSPECTION.

THE RULE IS NOT THAT YOU HAVE TO SELF-REPORT YOURSELF IN THE EVENT THAT A REFEREE DOES NOT DO HIS JOB

 

[Rhode Irish]

Is somebody working on answering my question about what qualifies a rules violation as cheating versus just a plain old rules violation? Are we all just a bunch of Potter Stewarts running around looking for obscenities? We just know cheating when we decide we see it? Or is there a line of demarcation somewhere that separates regular violations from cheating?

 

[Irish#1]

Temp outside: 45F / 7C
Temp inside: 75 F 24 C (for sake of argument)

In Kelvin:
Outside = 273 + 7 = 280
Inside = 273 + 24 = 297

Initial Pressure 12.5psi. Absolute pressure 14.7psi + 12.5psi = 27.2 psi
ratio 280 / 297 = .942
Absolute pressure outside = .942 * 27.2 = 25.6
Guage pressure outside = 25.6 - 14.7 or 10.9 psi

Honest to God you guys are something else. The one time ESPN and the media actually ARE making a story out of nothing to drive website traffic and I'm the only one criticizing them.

Cheating is cheating is cheating? Really?

Let's see the outrage the next time LeBron takes too many steps before a layup.

I'm sure NHL players never curve their sticks more than the allowed amount.

Remember those all-time great offensive linemen who would report themselves to the officials when they committed a holding penalty that wasn't spotted?

Let's see everyone get pissy the next time a batter leans into a pitch.

Sorry, but that calculation is incorrect because it uses relative pressure, not absolute pressure. Absolute pressure is pressure in the ball PLUS atmospheric pressure, which the naysayers are ignoring in their calculations.

ETA: Also, you're using Andrew Sharp and Twitter as your scientific experts?

Edit again: He also says that taking air out of the football makes it "lighter," which is idiotic and untrue.

Edit again again: This article helps prove MY point:



Edit a fourth time: Remember when you said Aaron Rodgers doesn't overinflate his balls above the allowed PSI?

Brad Johnson Paid Some Guys To Doctor 100 Footballs Before Super Bowl

Wiz you're cracking me up. You keep ignoring everyone's point about cheating by replying with a math formula, square root or something. Then go to the tried and true, "well everyone else does it" by posting links and quotes. The bottom line is there are specific rules to abide by and it looks like the Pats didn't. As I mentioned before, this is the second time he's been caught, so I'm inclined to believe he's cheated more than these two times.

 

[gkIrish]

Is somebody working on answering my question about what qualifies a rules violation as cheating versus just a plain old rules violation? Are we all just a bunch of Potter Stewarts running around looking for obscenities? We just know cheating when we decide we see it? Or is there a line of demarcation somewhere that separates regular violations from cheating?

There are "rules violations" made by players on the field that equate to penalties. Then there are rules violations that are not made by the players during the act of playing football that are used to gain a unique advantage. This falls into that category. Getting away with holding is not cheating. Wearing shoes with spikes that are not within NFL regulations IS cheating.

 

[edgesofsanity]

Is somebody working on answering my question about what qualifies a rules violation as cheating versus just a plain old rules violation? Are we all just a bunch of Potter Stewarts running around looking for obscenities? We just know cheating when we decide we see it? Or is there a line of demarcation somewhere that separates regular violations from cheating?

That's easy:

Cheat

5. to violate rules or regulations:
He cheats at cards.

So by definition all rules violations are cheating.

Whether or not it is "acceptable" or not to the sport is what will come out of all of this. The more public furor, the more likely it won't be considered acceptable. However, it was already hit on the head earlier - without any evidence of direction (i.e., paper/email documentation from the front office to the ball boy) this will all just blow away - but it gives the public something to obsess over that's NFL related. So here we are.

 

[Rhode Irish]

There are "rules violations" made by players on the field that equate to penalties. Then there are rules violations that are not made by the players during the act of playing football that are used to gain a unique advantage. This falls into that category. Getting away with holding is not cheating. Wearing shoes with spikes that are not within NFL regulations IS cheating.

Thank you for that. Now, all rules are meant to ensure a level playing field, right? So don't all rules violations undermine that desired competitive balance to some extent?

 

[Rhode Irish]

That's easy:

Cheat

5. to violate rules or regulations:
He cheats at cards.

So by definition all rules violations are cheating.

Whether or not it is "acceptable" or not to the sport is what will come out of all of this. The more public furor, the more likely it won't be considered acceptable. However, it was already hit on the head earlier - without any evidence of direction (i.e., paper/email documentation from the front office to the ball boy) this will all just blow away - but it gives the public something to obsess over that's NFL related. So here we are.

Do you think the line between cheating and regular rules violations should be drawn based on popular public sentiment? That seems intellectually lazy and dangerous.

 

[Monk]

They both broke the EXACT SAME RULE (if the Patriots broke any rules). Rodgers just got caught first, if he even gets caught at all. He stated that he's not caught every time so he's actually PLAYED games with an overinflated ball which he believes provides him with a competitive advantage.

They didn't break the same rule. The check of the football before the game is to determine the original fill of the ball to be correct, and if it is not to adjust it so it is ready for play. That is done before any time has come off the clock.

The Patriots on the other hand waited until after the balls were inspected, knowing the officials would not look at them again and deflated them.

I also would like to know the difference in temperature from each sideline. This will absolutely tell us why the weather affected the Patriots footballs, but not the Colts. You are grasping at straws.

On the other hand as Rhode Irish has said. It shouldn't be a big deal. The Patriots won that game because they were the far better team. It is more concerning however that these type of stories follow the Patriots and there does seem to be a philosophy of what can we get away with. Because of that I believe the penalty should be somewhat significant (2nd or 3rd round pick and both a fine for BB and Kraft/Patriot organization) I do not believe he should be suspended for the Super Bowl, but the punishment has to be stiff enough to curb the thinking there.

 

[Monk]

There are "rules violations" made by players on the field that equate to penalties. Then there are rules violations that are not made by the players during the act of playing football that are used to gain a unique advantage. This falls into that category. Getting away with holding is not cheating. Wearing shoes with spikes that are not within NFL regulations IS cheating.

I beg to differ. I believe they both are cheating, and it is up to the officials to punish them accordingly. The officials penalize a player caught holding and if they miss the hold don't call it (Obviously). It is the same in this instance. Who knows how many times the Pats or any other team for that matter have done this. You penalize them only when you catch them and they have been caught this time.

 

[Bubbles]

That's easy:

Cheat

5. to violate rules or regulations:
He cheats at cards.

So by definition all rules violations are cheating.

Whether or not it is "acceptable" or not to the sport is what will come out of all of this. The more public furor, the more likely it won't be considered acceptable. However, it was already hit on the head earlier - without any evidence of direction (i.e., paper/email documentation from the front office to the ball boy) this will all just blow away - but it gives the public something to obsess over that's NFL related. So here we are.

I disagree. There may or may not be some penalty in this situation, but the damage has already been done.....hence the torches and pitchforks coming out of the woodwork. If something wrong was done, its simply confirmation of previously existing bias, if nothing wrong was done, there was a coverup, further confirmation of said bias.

If you are a fan of team 'A', you will make excuses, deny, justify, deflect to confirm your view that your team is awesome.

 

[gkIrish]

I beg to differ. I believe they both are cheating, and it is up to the officials to punish them accordingly. The officials penalize a player caught holding and if they miss the hold don't call it (Obviously). It is the same in this instance. Who knows how many times the Pats or any other team for that matter have done this. You penalize them only when you catch them and they have been caught this time.

When I think "cheating" I think of an intent element. Holding or pass interference lacks that intent because I'm sure the players don't actually want to violate the rules because they don't want to get a penalty.

NBA is a better example. Goaltending is a violation of the rules but how can one say that's "cheating?" Players aren't intentionally trying to goaltend, it just happens. Lowering the rim by two inches on your side of the court would definitely be cheating though because you are clearly trying to gain an advantage.

 

[Irish#1]

They didn't break the same rule. The check of the football before the game is to determine the original fill of the ball to be correct, and if it is not to adjust it so it is ready for play. That is done before any time has come off the clock.

The Patriots on the other hand waited until after the balls were inspected, knowing the officials would not look at them again and deflated them.

I also would like to know the difference in temperature from each sideline. This will absolutely tell us why the weather affected the Patriots footballs, but not the Colts. You are grasping at straws.

On the other hand as Rhode Irish has said. It shouldn't be a big deal. The Patriots won that game because they were the far better team. It is more concerning however that these type of stories follow the Patriots and there does seem to be a philosophy of what can we get away with. Because of that I believe the penalty should be somewhat significant (2nd or 3rd round pick and both a fine for BB and Kraft/Patriot organization) I do not believe he should be suspended for the Super Bowl, but the punishment has to be stiff enough to curb the thinking there.

The penalty for Spygate was a 1st round pick and $500K for Belicheat and $250K(?) for Kraft. That evidently wasn't enough to deter him from more shenanigans. A loss of multiple 1st round picks, a post season ban or a combination would seem appropriate this time.