US troops to fight Ebola Virus.

[Whiskeyjack]

Premed at ND, MD Cincinnati Medical school, Residency in Pediatrics Cincinnati Childrens Hospital, Chief Resident Cincinnati Childrens Hospital and Cincinnati General Hospital, chief of Pediatrics USAF Hospital, Loring Air Force Base, board certified in Pediatrics, Fellow American Academy of Pediatrics, private practice of Pediatrics Welborn Clinic and Hospital, several years chairman if the infection control committee Welborn Hospital, Volunteer (i.e, unpaid) Clinical Assistant Professor of Pediatrics Indiana School of Medicine, department of Pediatrics. Instructor in Pediatrics USI-IU Medical School, Evansville IN. Currently retired
I have not had an infectious disease fellowship, but I had a large referral practice and about 25% of my practice was in infectious diseases (of children).

But how many confirmed kills do you have?

 

[BobD]

To be fair, this outbreak poses a much more serious threat to America than ISIS does. Though whether or not certain military personnel are the most effective agents to address this problem is not a question I'm qualified to answer.

Both are very serious threats. Very different, but very serious.

 

[BobD]

But how many confirmed kills do you have?

Besides Wooly?

 

[johnnycando]

Georgia Guidestones - RationalWiki

 

[ginman]

Hopefully people will start to realize the significance of the situation. Committing these troops isn't something done on a whim. This is a very dangerous situation that we need to help get under control.

Every soldier going over there is a volunteer.

That depends on how you define enemy.

They volunteer to defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. They did not volunteer for this, although I think the majority would willingly go if they were asked and understood the rationale.

Of course this is a serious situation. And as usual it is our $ and sons and daughters who are expected to do 90% of the heavy lifting. Meanwhile, the country goes further into debt and our military is being reduced as all kinds of threats are growing.

 

[dublinirish]

That depends on how you define enemy.

They volunteer to defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. They did not volunteer for this, although I think the majority would willingly go if they were asked and understood the rationale.

Of course this is a serious situation. And as usual it is our $ and sons and daughters who are expected to do 90% of the heavy lifting. Meanwhile, the country goes further into debt and our military is being reduced as all kinds of threats are growing.

ok so on those grounds what is your opinion of US troops being sent to Haiti after the earthquake there? If you watch any Military commercial on tv you will see they highlight the humanitarian relief they provide to other nations. It's a huge part of their operations.

 

[BobD]

That depends on how you define enemy.

They volunteer to defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. They did not volunteer for this, although I think the majority would willingly go if they were asked and understood the rationale.

Of course this is a serious situation. And as usual it is our $ and sons and daughters who are expected to do 90% of the heavy lifting. Meanwhile, the country goes further into debt and our military is being reduced as all kinds of threats are growing.

You also should consider how much of the world's wealth and resources we have and use.

 

[Cackalacky]

Yes, although I do not like many things about the nature of the American military system, it has a structure and physical and material capabilities to perform several functions, particularly humanitarian efforts as dublinirish points out. I will just add that our resources have been used worldwide for humanitarian efforts that routinely expose our soldiers to unsafe conditions. That being said, I cannot think of them ever being used to contain a disease in a foreign country, except in the movies.

 

[woolybug25]

Wolleybug25
Thank you for your measured and polite correction of my ignorant and unresearched remarks.
I did, however, serve as the chairman of my hospital's infection control committee for a number of years. In our ignorance we considered, as do most infectious disease experts, any transmission of disease particles via body fluid effluence through the air as airborne. Respiratory transmission is one such method. Another might be explosive diarrhea. A third might be expelling blood from various body openings, including the lungs due to a pulmonary hemorrhage.
In addition many airborne diseases are not respiratory. Two such examples would be histoplasmosis and hantavirus infection.
I will admit that if the Ebola virus figures out a way to transmit like the influenza virus does, we will have an even worse disaster on our hands. This is extremely unlikely because the present transmission is so effective and overwhelming this mutation is almost impossible to happen. (Note, I said almost.)
As with the case, when technical medical terms are dumbed down for lay publications and consumption some clarity is lost.
Ebola scares the hell out of me, as did aids some 40 years and 40,000,000 and counting deaths ago.

First of all, you said it was airborne in your first comment, which no one outside of your community considers as anything but transmittable through air. Not explosive diarrhea or blood fights. If you are "dumming it down" for us, then use the terminology that we are used to, not try to scare people with terms that are generally used differently than your intent. Pretty simple.

You also said that there is no vaccine available, which is incorrect, as Quinntastic pointed out. Also, pretty much every article you read takes the assumption that we would be able to contain any outbreak in the US. There is no evidence out there that we couldn't. So while you claim a very impressive resume... it doesn't change the fact that your original comment was phrased poorly and included an incorrect fact. Sorry.

 

[T Town Tommy]

If we.... being America... prop ourselves up as the leader of the free world, we have an obligation to help in this cause just as much as we do when it comes to military campaigns. I am not qualified to speak on the militaries capabilities in the arena of fighting ebola, but I think they have the capabilities through their chemical biological training to minimize the risk of infection to themselves.


As far as ISIS, their threat to us is real. Just how much of a threat given the current situation is open for debate. I would rather act now when that threat appears to be minimal then have to act later when the cost will be higher. With that said, the region has 150,000+ troops that should be the boots on the ground part of the equation. ISIS is much more of a direct threat to them than us at present. Sadly, it appears they are either unwilling to take the task on or are waiting for the US to play the big bad bully once again. And Turkey... one of our strongest allies in the region - needs to clamp down on the black market oil trading ISIS is using primarily through their country. Time for them to cut off ISIS' currency monster.

 

[IrishLion]

First of all, you said it was airborne in your first comment, which no one outside of your community considers as anything but transmittable through air.

I understand where you are both coming from (I think?)

When you think "airborn," it means something that can be transmitted through the air, without any other significant circumstances needing to occur aside from someone infected/the virus being present. Is that right?

And I think the other gentleman is using "airborn" to say that it can be transmitted through the air, but it needs a significant circumstance, such as a sneeze or a cough that ejects tiny particles of bodily fluid, into the air. Right?

I sorely lack knowledge in terms of medical terminology, but both of you are making sense if I understand correctly.

 

[pkt77242]

If we.... being America... prop ourselves up as the leader of the free world, we have an obligation to help in this cause just as much as we do when it comes to military campaigns. I am not qualified to speak on the militaries capabilities in the arena of fighting ebola, but I think they have the capabilities through their chemical biological training to minimize the risk of infection to themselves.


As far as ISIS, their threat to us is real. Just how much of a threat given the current situation is open for debate. I would rather act now when that threat appears to be minimal then have to act later when the cost will be higher. With that said, the region has 150,000+ troops that should be the boots on the ground part of the equation. ISIS is much more of a direct threat to them than us at present. Sadly, it appears they are either unwilling to take the task on or are waiting for the US to play the big bad bully once again. And Turkey... one of our strongest allies in the region - needs to clamp down on the black market oil trading ISIS is using primarily through their country. Time for them to cut off ISIS' currency monster.

From what I have read we are not directly treating patients. We have engineers going to build field hospitals to house the sick, medical professionals going in to train their health care workers and supplies galore. Obviously there is chance that some soldiers (particularly the medical professionals) could be exposed but from everything I read we are not doing direct care of the sick which should lower it drastically.

 

[woolybug25]

I understand where you are both coming from (I think?)

When you think "airborn," it means something that can be transmitted through the air, without any other significant circumstances needing to occur aside from someone infected/the virus being present. Is that right?

And I think the other gentleman is using "airborn" to say that it can be transmitted through the air, but it needs a significant circumstance, such as a sneeze or a cough that ejects tiny particles of bodily fluid, into the air. Right?

I sorely lack knowledge in terms of medical terminology, but both of you are making sense if I understand correctly.

Yes. The OP was referring to the danger of it being airborne in the sense of "transmittable through air" then irish1958 said that it was "already airborne" and made no reference to his definition being different than the laymen version of "airborne" or the version intended by the OP. So for him to act like I simply didn't understand him is condescending. He phrased himself poorly and then tried using his credentials to somehow mitigate the fact that he 1) Used a different definition of "airborne" than the laymen version and 2) Incorrectly stated that there is no vaccine.

 

[ginman]

ok so on those grounds what is your opinion of US troops being sent to Haiti after the earthquake there? If you watch any Military commercial on tv you will see they highlight the humanitarian relief they provide to other nations. It's a huge part of their operations.

You also should consider how much of the world's wealth and resources we have and use.

Although I think we have some responsibility to assisting the world with disaster issues, the primary role of the military and our government is to protect US interests. And although we have the greatest wealth in the world, that does not mean that our people/military needs to take the highest risk and most dangerous jobs in every situation, nor do we need to be involved in every crisis around the world. We have placed our nation in a position in which the world expects us to finance and run every expensive operation knowing that they need not get involved because we will handle it.

Name the last great power that did not overextend itself financially or militarily that didn't eventually fail. There are limits to what we can do and be expected to do. If this is such a crisis, and I think that it could be, why is this US troops and not UN peacekeepers (which is funded 25% by US tax dollars) operation?

 

[Cackalacky]

There are definite organisms that disperse via air needing only the air to transmit their reproductive entities and only need to be respired by a host. I think what irish1958 is saying is that, yes ebola can be transmitted through the air but via bodily fluid/particulates travelling through the air (which have the possibility of remaining suspended in the air and therefore, can be respired by humans) and that the risk to human health is present, although low.

edit: Aw hell. IrishLion beat me again.....

 

[Woneone]

Yes. The OP was referring to the danger of it being airborne in the sense of "transmittable through air" then irish1958 said that it was "already airborne" and made no reference to his definition being different than the laymen version of "airborne" or the version intended by the OP. So for him to act like I simply didn't understand him is condescending. He phrased himself poorly and then tried using his credentials to somehow mitigate the fact that he 1) Used a different definition of "airborne" than the laymen version and 2) Incorrectly stated that there is no vaccine.

Uh, he did exactly what you said he didn't do.

In fact, Ebola is airborne, transmitted by droplets of human effluence. Since symptoms of the disease include vomiting, diarrhea, coughing, hemorrhage, etc. there is easy transmission especially in crowded slums.

We was actually very specific in his definition of airborne, and gave examples of such.

Also, according to the CDC, taken directly from their web site:

There are currently no FDA approved vaccines for Ebola. The NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases is working on developing an Ebola vaccine. NIH recently announced they are expediting their work and are launching phase 1 clinical trials of an Ebola vaccine.

On August 28, 2014, NIH announced that initial human testing of an investigational vaccine to prevent Ebola virus disease will begin next week by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), part of the National Institutes of Health.

The early-stage trial will begin initial human testing of a vaccine co-developed by NIAID and GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) and will evaluate the experimental vaccine’s safety and ability to generate an immune system response in healthy adults. Testing will take place at the NIH Clinical Center in Bethesda, Maryland.

The study is the first of several Phase 1 clinical trials that will examine the investigational NIAID/GSK Ebola vaccine and an experimental Ebola vaccine developed by the Public Health Agency of Canada and licensed to NewLink Genetics Corp. The others are to launch in the fall. These trials are conducted in healthy adults who are not infected with Ebola virus to determine if the vaccine is safe and induces an adequate immune response.

If you want to argue what makes a vaccine "official", I guess you can do that. But you seem like you're going a bit above and beyond to "save face" in this case.

 

[Cackalacky]

I will just add the circumstances of exposure regarding infectious diseases. Each disease is fairly distinct in its transmission and exposure routes, which play into the amount of people infected. Obviously, based on the current location of the outbreak, Americans are at a much lower risk than those in the slums of outbreaks, which have much lower health standards, closer quarters, and fewer areas to receive proper medical attention and care.

 

[woolybug25]

Uh, he did exactly what you said he didn't do.

We was actually very specific in his definition of airborne, and gave examples of such

Read the original post again. The person he was replying to was referring to the laymen term and he was referring to something entirely different.

If you want to argue what makes a vaccine "official", I guess you can do that. But you seem like you're going a bit above and beyond to "save face" in this case.

He said that it didn't exist, he made no mention of it not being official or not. He said there wasn't one in existence. No reason for me to save face, as simply typing out his resume doesn't make me less right. The two items are incorrect and the scare tactics are unnecessary.

 

[irish1958]

My last comment: from an USA TODAY article dated 9/17: "meanwhile, in a Senate hearing, Dr. Kent Brantly, the U.S. Doctor who contracted and survived Ebola, spoke about the urgency in acting to prevent the disease from spreading to the United States. "In nine months down the road, we are looking at hundreds of thousands, not just cases, but deaths," he said."
It looks like I am not they only one using scare tactics.

 

[Quinntastic]

I'm a Microbiologist, so I'm not here to talk about whether or not Ebola is going to be a big problem if it gets to the US: It will. Period. No question.

My problem was with "no treatment, no vaccine, no hope" message you were sending, irish1958. Whether you meant it to or not, it came off very condescending and especially since most of the people out there don't fully understand it or the implications it would have if it reaches US soil, it's not helpful in the least. Since the "layperson" doesn't have any way to prevent/help the situation, your message is just scaring people for the sake of scaring people.

 

[BGIF]

Link? I have never read an article, and I have read a ton on this issue, where they said ebola was airborne. If it were, we would have a major world-wide disaster on our hands. That would definitely be something we would have to throw our military at.

Pretty much everything you wrote is factually incorrect. Do some research before you spout off nonsense like this.

Fact or Fiction?: The Ebola Virus Will Go Airborne - Scientific American

Ebola Fast Facts - CNN.com

WHO | Ebola virus disease

Read the original post again. The person he was replying to was referring to the laymen term and he was referring to something entirely different.


He said that it didn't exist, he made no mention of it not being official or not. He said there wasn't one in existence. No reason for me to save face, as simply typing out his resume doesn't make me less right. The two items are incorrect and the scare tactics are unnecessary.

So it's gone from "Pretty much everything you wrote is factually incorrect" to "the two items are incorrect".

No typing out his resume doesn't make you less right ... your own statements did.

 

[Redbar]

I was talking to a friend who was in the marine corps and he brought up a position that I had not considered. He said he would not be surprised if this contingent of troops were not being deployed to per se provide humanitarian operations, as much as to possibly enforce some form of quarantine.

Also a lot of the doctors that have been infected while over there have no doubt been provided all of the protective garments, gear and protocols that have effectively worked for researchers that do handle and deal with the virus in laboratory settings. Yet they are still being infected. Are all of these people being sloppy with the protocols or is it infecting them in some unforeseen way?

 

[Quinntastic]

I was talking to a friend who was in the marine corps and he brought up a position that I had not considered. He said he would not be surprised if this contingent of troops were not being deployed to per se provide humanitarian operations, as much as to possibly enforce some form of quarantine.

Also a lot of the doctors that have been infected while over there have no doubt been provided all of the protective garments, gear and protocols that have effectively worked for researchers that do handle and deal with the virus in laboratory settings. Yet they are still being infected. Are all of these people being sloppy with the protocols or is it infecting them in some unforeseen way?

The problem is that doctors wear those garments and gear (in the medical world termed as "PPE" - Personal Protective Equipment) when they are around *known* Ebola patients. Though not necessarily when they are in the vicinity of *all* patients.

Example scenario: A patient comes into one of those clinics with just a stomach ache. The doctor, not knowing what is causing the stomach ache, treats them with just their white doctor coat on. The patient pukes, the doctor inhales some of the droplets (unbeknownst to him), because he wasn't wearing his eye/face shield. A week later it is found out that this patient had Ebola. And now the doctor has been exposed because he wasn't wearing the appropriate PPE at the very beginning, when he should have been, because he didn't know he should have been wearing it, because the patient wasn't an obvious Ebola patient. And unless every doctor/nurse/medical professional wears all of the appropriate PPE 24/7, they could be exposed to it without realizing it when they are around unknown Ebola patients. But wearing the extensive PPE needed while in 100+ degree heat in clinics without air conditioning or other means to cool yourself could mean other health hazards to the medical staff as well....

 

[johnnycando]

I was talking to a friend who was in the marine corps and he brought up a position that I had not considered. He said he would not be surprised if this contingent of troops were not being deployed to per se provide humanitarian operations, as much as to possibly enforce some form of quarantine.

Also a lot of the doctors that have been infected while over there have no doubt been provided all of the protective garments, gear and protocols that have effectively worked for researchers that do handle and deal with the virus in laboratory settings. Yet they are still being infected. Are all of these people being sloppy with the protocols or is it infecting them in some unforeseen way?

I hadn't considered a quarantine function.

 

[irish1958]

I hadn't considered a quarantine function.

As I mentioned, the only possible control is quarantine, which requires an enforcing authority. In this case, it will require quarantining at least three whole countries or it won't work.

Quinnastic: supplying information is necessary to overcome resistance. If you read through the posts you will see that some think helping these people is too expensive and/or is someone else's responsibility or isn't necessary. This is the same attitude expressed in the general public newspapers, blogs and (conservative) radio shows. I have been reading medicinal journals and I can assure you the people in the know are scared shitless, and close to a state of panic. The public must get behind this effort before millions are killed and it spreads around the world.
We have never had an urban Ebola epidemic. The closest things in history are the influenza epidemics of the early 20th century, the cholera epidemics of the 19th century, the smallpox and measles decimation of the Native American population and the medieval plague epidemics.
We made many of the same mistakes in the aids epidemic and we are at 40,000,000 deaths and counting.
I sincerely hope I am wrong, but I am afraid I am not.

 

[Quinntastic]

As I mentioned, the only possible control is quarantine, which requires an enforcing authority. In this case, it will require quarantining at least three whole countries or it won't work.

Quinnastic: supplying information is necessary to overcome resistance. If you read through the posts you will see that some think helping these people is too expensive and/or is someone else's responsibility or isn't necessary. This is the same attitude expressed in the general public newspapers, blogs and (conservative) radio shows. I have been reading medicinal journals and I can assure you the people in the know are scared shitless, and close to a state of panic. The public must get behind this effort before millions are killed and it spreads around the world.
We have never had an urban Ebola epidemic. The closest things in history are the influenza epidemics of the early 20th century, the cholera epidemics of the 19th century, the smallpox and measles decimation of the Native American population and the medieval plague epidemics.
We made many of the same mistakes in the aids epidemic and we are at 40,000,000 deaths and counting.
I sincerely hope I am wrong, but I am afraid I am not.

Yes but how am I, or you, or any of the people here supposed to "get behind this effort" in any meaningful way? I have no say over what the President does with the troops, I have no say in dispensing medical aid workers to the area, and I have no say in how many dollars are sent there, I have no say in implementing better PPE protocols over there to contain the spread, etc. And neither does anyone on this board. So how, then, are we supposed to "get behind this effort" in any way that is going to make any bit of difference?

My follow up question, after you realize that there is no substantial action I as the "layperson" can do, answer me why is it so important to spread panic? People are plenty scared as it is. Especially knowing we are so powerless/helpless to contain the spread. The people who are in a position to make any bit of difference are the leaders of nations, who pay no attention to me or my ideas/thoughts/concerns/actions.

 

[Redbar]

As I mentioned, the only possible control is quarantine, which requires an enforcing authority. In this case, it will require quarantining at least three whole countries or it won't work.

I will share since it has already been run by the local news...A ship arrived at the port of New Orleans this morning and was brought in as usual, apparently this ship had left the Congo and was in transit when three crew members became seriously ill. One was so ill that the ship dropped him off in the Bahamas for medical attention the other two members remained on board. We got a call from the local parish's (county) sherriff's department/homeland defense office, telling us to send the pilot who brought the ship in up to the local hospital for potential quarantine until they could test him for ebola and/or malaria as the incubation period for ebola is about three weeks, plenty enough time for a ship leaving West Africa to arrive at any number of American ports and certainly the Port of New Orleans. This was after the pilot had been on station, eaten, hung out in the front room and then gone up to his room. Needless to say this created quite a stir on station. We have since been in communication with the CDC and the Coast Guard and apparently they were aware of the circumstances on the ship and felt the local authorities had completely overreacted and that the crew member that was removed in the Bahamas was diagnosed with malaria and that they believe the other two have some type of gastro-intestinal virus. Further, they have no reason to believe that these crew members came in contact with anyone who had ebola in West Africa.

One concern is this, when these ships go to undeveloped nations' ports, there is a real shortage of mechanized facilities for loading and removal of cargo, the work is done by a large contingent of local labor frequently hired on a day by day basis. Any one of these people could through sweat/coughing/sneezing contaminate people on a vessel and rapidly spread this virus around the world. So while today may prove to be a false alarm, the time to quarantine the infected was back in May, trying to do that now...I am not so confident that it can be done.

 

[pkt77242]

Yes but how am I, or you, or any of the people here supposed to "get behind this effort" in any meaningful way? I have no say over what the President does with the troops, I have no say in dispensing medical aid workers to the area, and I have no say in how many dollars are sent there, I have no say in implementing better PPE protocols over there to contain the spread, etc. And neither does anyone on this board. So how, then, are we supposed to "get behind this effort" in any way that is going to make any bit of difference?

My follow up question, after you realize that there is no substantial action I as the "layperson" can do, answer me why is it so important to spread panic? People are plenty scared as it is. Especially knowing we are so powerless/helpless to contain the spread. The people who are in a position to make any bit of difference are the leaders of nations, who pay no attention to me or my ideas/thoughts/concerns/actions.

I agree that I as an individual can't do anything (neither can you or most regular individuals) but if enough individuals start calling, emailing and writing letters to congressmen and start making a lot of noise about it, then it will force them to do something about it (send troops over, send doctors over, give supplies, etc). The sad fact is that most politicians are self serving and if enough constituents start bombarding them they will try to do something about the problem to take the heat off of themselves.

 

[Redbar]

Yes but how am I, or you, or any of the people here supposed to "get behind this effort" in any meaningful way? I have no say over what the President does with the troops, I have no say in dispensing medical aid workers to the area, and I have no say in how many dollars are sent there, I have no say in implementing better PPE protocols over there to contain the spread, etc. And neither does anyone on this board. So how, then, are we supposed to "get behind this effort" in any way that is going to make any bit of difference?

My follow up question, after you realize that there is no substantial action I as the "layperson" can do, answer me why is it so important to spread panic? People are plenty scared as it is. Especially knowing we are so powerless/helpless to contain the spread. The people who are in a position to make any bit of difference are the leaders of nations, who pay no attention to me or my ideas/thoughts/concerns/actions.

I agree that there is little that any of us can do about this, but I share irish1958's, belief that this is a gravely serious threat to us all and not acknowledging that fact and creating the necessary will to combat it is folly.

 

[Quinntastic]

I agree that I as an individual can't do anything (neither can you or most regular individuals) but if enough individuals start calling, emailing and writing letters to congressmen and start making a lot of noise about it, then it will force them to do something about it (send troops over, send doctors over, give supplies, etc). The sad fact is that most politicians are self serving and if enough constituents start bombarding them they will try to do something about the problem to take the heat off of themselves.

If the congresspeople of the US are not already taking Ebola seriously, then me, little nobody from Michigan with no money ties or lobbying power, sending my little e-mail is going to do nothing to dissuade them.