Lax vs Wooly THUNDERDOME (also, which Ivy did you turn down and why)

[woolybug25]

Why would this kid want to come play at Notre Dame? I know the Ivy's don't give full scholarships, but their scholarship programs damn near give them a full ride.

If i'm this kids dad, i'm smacking him upside his head for not jumping on one of his Ivy League offers.

I would be happy to have him as a PWO, but that is clearly not in this kid's best interest.

 

[IrishLax]

Why would this kid want to come play at Notre Dame? I know the Ivy's don't give full scholarships, but their scholarship programs damn near give them a full ride.

If i'm this kids dad, i'm smacking him upside his head for not jumping on one of his Ivy League offers.

I would be happy to have him as a PWO, but that is clearly not in this kid's best interest.

Huh? What do you mean "their scholarship programs damn near give them a full ride"? If his family is remotely well off, he's not receiving a dime from any of those schools. Harvard has the most expansive financial aid of any Ivy, and basically anyone with two working parents in middle class jobs (excluding others siblings in college) doesn't qualify.

 

[woolybug25]

Huh? What do you mean "their scholarship programs damn near give them a full ride"? If his family is remotely well off, he's not receiving a dime from any of those schools. Harvard has the most expansive financial aid of any Ivy, and basically anyone with two working parents in middle class jobs (excluding others siblings in college) doesn't qualify.

Do you know how much his parents make? Here is a high level breakdown:

At most Ivy League institutions, families earning less than about $65,000 annually are now asked to make no contribution to their children’s education. Families making $65,000 to $180,000 might be expected to pay 10 percent to 18 percent of their annual income on a sliding scale. Ten years ago, such families would have been expected to pay almost twice as much, and their child would probably have accumulated a debt of about $25,000 after four years.

There are a variety of ways to make a couple's income "fit" into under $180k. Especially if it means saving over $25k a year in tuition. If they make substantially more than that, then why not just pay for the Ivy League?

Bottom line… this is a two star potential walk on. He is doing himself zero favors by turning down the likes of Harvard. Notre Dame is a fine school… but it's not an Ivy.

 

[Cali_domer]

Do you know how much his parents make? Here is a high level breakdown:



There are a variety of ways to make a couple's income "fit" into under $180k. Especially if it means saving over $25k a year in tuition. If they make substantially more than that, then why not just pay for the Ivy League?

Bottom line… this is a two star potential walk on. He is doing himself zero favors by turning down the likes of Harvard. Notre Dame is a fine school… but it's not an Ivy.

Living in the Thousand Oaks /Westlake area I can tell you his parents most likely aren't poor. A lot of money in this area.

 

[Rack Em]

Do you know how much his parents make? Here is a high level breakdown:



There are a variety of ways to make a couple's income "fit" into under $180k. Especially if it means saving over $25k a year in tuition. If they make substantially more than that, then why not just pay for the Ivy League?

Bottom line… this is a two star potential walk on. He is doing himself zero favors by turning down the likes of Harvard. Notre Dame is a fine school… but it's not an Ivy.

You must forget that Mendoza is ranked #1 by a magazine! And only 30% of that ranking is based on student feelings!

What Ivy League can compete with that!?!

 

[gkIrish]

Why would this kid want to come play at Notre Dame? I know the Ivy's don't give full scholarships, but their scholarship programs damn near give them a full ride.

If i'm this kids dad, i'm smacking him upside his head for not jumping on one of his Ivy League offers.

I would be happy to have him as a PWO, but that is clearly not in this kid's best interest.

Because his personal aspirations may be to play football for a top program while receiving a good education. Not like we are talking about sacrificing a Harvard education for a walk-on spot at Miss. St.

 

[woolybug25]

Living in the Thousand Oaks /Westlake area I can tell you his parents most likely aren't poor. A lot of money in this area.

His parents don't have to be poor. They base the income off of 1040 wages. Which can be easily manipulated to get under the $180k threshold. If they are business owners, they can stash it in the retained earnings of the business, or take pay in stock options, etc.

Again, if his parents make substantially more than what can be squeezed under the threshold, then what are we arguing about? Pay for the damn school because you can afford it.

I work with a lot of guys from schools all over the country. I can assure you that there is a big difference in opportunity between schools like Stanford/Notre Dame and Harvard/Yale.

 

[IrishLax]

Bottom line… this is a two star potential walk on. He is doing himself zero favors by turning down the likes of Harvard. Notre Dame is a fine school… but it's not an Ivy.

Yeah... I turned down two Ivies to go to ND. And I knew plenty of kids who did something similar. There are plenty programs at ND that trump or are equal to Ivy equivalents, and there are a lot of aspects of what you get at ND that you maybe don't get at an Ivy.

Maybe he wants to be a part of big time football. Maybe he's Catholic. Maybe he wants all-you-can-eat training table. Maybe he wants to do an undergraduate business major. Maybe he looks at how we give full scholarships to PWOs almost every year. I can go on and on and on with logical reasons why someone would accept a PWO spot at ND over an Ivy League spot (fun fact... we have AT LEAST a half dozen PWOs already on the roster who have already done something similar).

Receiving financial aid in the Ivy League is not as straightforward and simple as you're making it out to be. Especially as an athlete, because they do everything in their power to ensure athletes aren't getting "extra" aid because they want to avoid the appearance of athletic scholarships. I know a lot of kids who went to Ivies to play lacrosse (one of maybe two team sports where they can actually still compete at a big time DI level), as well as kids from my HS who went to a bunch of Ivies for football.

This is going to be one of those topics where you hunker down in your entrenched position, then count me out now.

 

[IrishLax]

I work with a lot of guys from schools all over the country. I can assure you that there is a big difference in opportunity between schools like Stanford/Notre Dame and Harvard/Yale.

You mean opportunity for financial aid, or opportunity in careers?

 

[woolybug25]

Because his personal aspirations may be to play football for a top program while receiving a good education. Not like we are talking about sacrificing a Harvard education for a walk-on spot at Miss. St.

He can play football (actually play, not sit on the practice squad like he most likely will do at Notre Dame) and get one of the finest educations the world offers. Coming to Notre Dame would be a childish decision, imo. Based off of some hope that he could pull off a "Rudy" story and suit up for the team. The cost… a lifetime of being an Ivy league graduate.

Sacrificing that so he can play Rudy is silly, imo.

 

[woolybug25]

You mean opportunity for financial aid, or opportunity in careers?

Career. Life.

 

[gkIrish]

He can play football (actually play, not sit on the practice squad like he most likely will do at Notre Dame) and get one of the finest educations the world offers. Coming to Notre Dame would be a childish decision, imo. Based off of some hope that he could pull off a "Rudy" story and suit up for the team. The cost… a lifetime of being an Ivy league graduate.

Sacrificing that so he can play Rudy is silly, imo.

I understand what you're saying but I think there are a multitude of reasons to turn down an Ivy for ND.

And let's not lump in all the Ivy's together here. Harvard/Yale/Princeton are at an entirely different level than the rest of the Ivys. For example, Cornell especially is no better academically than ND. And they have little "alumni loyalty" like ND alums do. Plus Cornell is in Ithaca, which is arguably worse than South Bend.

 

[woolybug25]

Yeah... I turned down two Ivies to go to ND. And I knew plenty of kids who did something similar. There are plenty programs at ND that trump or are equal to Ivy equivalents, and there are a lot of aspects of what you get at ND that you maybe don't get at an Ivy.

Well, that was your decision. You also played lacrosse, correct? This kid is a walk on at wide receiver. Do you honestly think he would end up playing? What program at Notre Dame trumps a program at Harvard?

Maybe he wants to be a part of big time football. Maybe he's Catholic. Maybe he wants all-you-can-eat training table. Maybe he wants to do an undergraduate business major. Maybe he looks at how we give full scholarships to PWOs almost every year. I can go on and on and on with logical reasons why someone would accept a PWO spot at ND over an Ivy League spot (fun fact... we have AT LEAST a half dozen PWOs already on the roster who have already done something similar).

Don't believe the Business Journal hype. Harvard is a better business school than Notre Dame. One magazine ranking doesn't make it true. I'm not saying that we don't have guys that have turned down Ivy offers, I'm just saying that its a bad move. Not trying to offend you, Lax. But the religious aspect is the only possible reasoning you listed above that I would allow my kid to make that decision.

Receiving financial aid in the Ivy League is not as straightforward and simple as you're making it out to be. Especially as an athlete, because they do everything in their power to ensure athletes aren't getting "extra" aid because they want to avoid the appearance of athletic scholarships. I know a lot of kids who went to Ivies to play lacrosse (one of maybe two team sports where they can actually still compete at a big time DI level), as well as kids from my HS who went to a bunch of Ivies for football.

This is going to be one of those topics where you hunker down in your entrenched position, then count me out now.

One of my coworkers works with his al mater for recruiting to an Ivy League football program. I assure you, it's far easier than you think. I have seen first hand how the process works. So yes… i'll hunker down. Thanks for the convo.

 

[IrishLax]

Career. Life.

HAHAHAHA you think someone from Harvard is appreciably better off than someone from Stanford!?!?!?! What rock do you live under?

There is nothing but your ignorance to support a statement like that.

Full List of Schools - PayScale College Salary Report 2012-13 ... this actually measures career earnings and starting salary.

Princeton #1
Stanford #8
ND #13
Harvard #13

Yeah... those Harvard students sure are doing soooooooooo much better in their careers than Stanford...

 

[woolybug25]

I understand what you're saying but I think there are a multitude of reasons to turn down an Ivy for ND.

And let's not lump in all the Ivy's together here. Harvard/Yale/Princeton are at an entirely different level than the rest of the Ivys. For example, Cornell especially is no better academically than ND. And they have little "alumni loyalty" like ND alums do. Plus Cornell is in Ithaca, which is arguably worse than South Bend.

You know that your my homie, right?

I agree to an extent that the Big 3 are in their own league, that being said, the Cornell and Penn's of the league are not on the same page with Notre Dame, imo. Cornell specifically has a tremendous alumni base. They aren't way off of Notre Dame, but I still see a difference. Also, have you ever been to Ithaca? I freaking love that town. Way nicer than South Bend (which I do like, btw) in my opinion.

 

[GoIrish41]

He can play football (actually play, not sit on the practice squad like he most likely will do at Notre Dame) and get one of the finest educations the world offers. Coming to Notre Dame would be a childish decision, imo. Based off of some hope that he could pull off a "Rudy" story and suit up for the team. The cost… a lifetime of being an Ivy league graduate.

Sacrificing that so he can play Rudy is silly, imo.

This. This kid doesn't have the skills to compete against the kind of talent that ND brings in every year. He does have the skill to see the field at Harvard and get a world class education to boot. Plus, I'm assume the offer from Harvard is a full ride and he'd be paying his own way at ND. There just isn't a question that you head to the Ivy League if you are this kid.

 

[woolybug25]

HAHAHAHA you think someone from Harvard is appreciably better off than someone from Stanford!?!?!?! What rock do you live under?

There is nothing but your ignorance to support a statement like that.

Full List of Schools - PayScale College Salary Report 2012-13 ... this actually measures career earnings and starting salary.

Princeton #1
Stanford #8
ND #13
Harvard #13

Yeah... those Harvard students sure are doing soooooooooo much better in their careers than Stanford...

I thought you wanted to be "counted out" because i'm hunkering down?

When did pay become the deciding factor of success? Some of the most popular degrees at Harvard are political science and psychology. Are those people not as successful because they get paid less?

"According to the Academic Ranking of World Universities, Harvard has been the number one college in the world since 2003. High-profile alumni include former U.S. presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy, current United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, current U.S. president Barack Obama, and Goldman Sachs CEO and chairman Lloyd Blankfein."
The 30 Most Influential Colleges and Universities of the Past Century

How many US presidents has Notre Dame produced? How many Nobel Prize winners? How many Nobel laureates? That's what Ivy League is about.

Also… what's up with the tone, dude? Cool your jets. No reason to come at me such vigor. We can debate the topic in a friendly manner.

 

[IrishLax]

Well, that was your decision. You also played lacrosse, correct? This kid is a walk on at wide receiver. Do you honestly think he would end up playing? What program at Notre Dame trumps a program at Harvard?

Don't believe the Business Journal hype. Harvard is a better business school than Notre Dame. One magazine ranking doesn't make it true. I'm not saying that we don't have guys that have turned down Ivy offers, I'm just saying that its a bad move. Not trying to offend you, Lax. But the religious aspect is the only possible reasoning you listed above that I would allow my kid to make that decision.

Harvard doesn't even offer an undergraduate business degree. Thanks for playing.

One of my coworkers works with his al mater for recruiting to an Ivy League football program. I assure you, it's far easier than you think. I have seen first hand how the process works. So yes… i'll hunker down. Thanks for the convo.

My high school sent well over 50 kids to Ivy League schools (about two-thirds of my class 400 person class were national merit finalists and we collectively had better SAT scores than ANY frosh class any college in the country). Many more got accepted and opted to go elsewhere. Our QB opted for Wash U in St. Louis over Ivy options. Plenty of other regular kids opted for Stanford or UVA or wherever for tons of different reasons. Ivy League schools being "better" than comparable top 10 or top 20 peers is nothing more than a myth perpetuated by people who have never seen them up close.

We've had four straight "conversations" where it gets to a point where I just quit because it gets so far down the rabbit hole that it becomes an exercise in futility. So I'm actually going to change my tact and go full NDinLA on this, because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Prepare for full jerk mode, no holds barred in this thread. Gird your loins or bring some better facts.

 

[woolybug25]

Harvard doesn't even offer an undergraduate business degree. Thanks for playing.

Their economics major is the highest enrollment in their school, dick. All people looking for Harvard for business get an economics degree (for the most part) then apply for Harvard Business School (mba, etc). Which is universally seen as the best graduate business program in the world.

We've had four straight "conversations" where it gets to a point where I just quit because it gets so far down the rabbit hole that it becomes an exercise in futility. So I'm actually going to change my tact and go full NDinLA on this, because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Prepare for full jerk mode, no holds barred in this thread. Gird your loins or bring some better facts.

I did bring facts, and screw you, dude. I never said anything offensive or incorrect. If you don't like what I have to say, then there is no reason to be confrontational about it. I didn't come at you with ill intent, you are being the aggressor here.

Put me on ignore, simply cool your jets or just keep being a jerk and i'll just leave the thread so you can carry on with your angry tirade. Either way, it's sunny and Friday… i'm not going to spend the day arguing with you.

 

[irishroo]

I turned down 2 Ivies (where I would have played football) as well in favor of ND, where I am just a normal student. Best decision I've ever made and it's not close. That said, I can't in good conscience argue that ND is on the same level academically/influentially/reputationally (is that a word?) as any of the Ivies, including Cornell. There are programs at ND that are better than their counterparts at Harvard (theology comes to mind) but in terms of the overall school, the argument is a non-starter.

That said, saying the kid should turn down ND and go to Harvard no questions asked is equally a non-starter. While ND isn't on the same level as HYP, it is still an elite institution that provides unbelievable opportunities to its alumni. Like someone said, it's not like he's turning down Harvard for Miss St. If this kid thinks ND is a better fit for him socially/athletically/etc. then he should come to ND.

Finally, whoever grouped ND and Stanford together and said they don't offer the same opportunities as HYP is wrong. Stanford is in the elite of the elite schools in this country, along with Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT. It offers every bit the academic challenge, reputation, and prestige that the top Ivies do.

 

[IrishLax]

I thought you wanted to be "counted out" because i'm hunkering down?

When did pay become the deciding factor of success? Some of the most popular degrees at Harvard are political science and psychology. Are those people not as successful because they get paid less?

"According to the Academic Ranking of World Universities, Harvard has been the number one college in the world since 2003. High-profile alumni include former U.S. presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy, current United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, current U.S. president Barack Obama, and Goldman Sachs CEO and chairman Lloyd Blankfein."
The 30 Most Influential Colleges and Universities of the Past Century

How many US presidents has Notre Dame produced? How many Nobel Prize winners? How many Nobel laureates? That's what Ivy League is about.

Also… what's up with the tone, dude? Cool your jets. No reason to come at me such vigor. We can debate the topic in a friendly manner.

Fiiiiine.... I'll cool my jets... I was looking forward to going full Hollywood in this thread...

Pointing out the uber-elites as an anecdote makes little to no sense on how it applies to your average outsider. This is also why many very smart kids opt to go other places for an education, because it can better further their career goals or give them a preferred learning environment. The cyclical nature of the American aristocracy buying places for their kids in Ivies through power and money does not make them a better school. More influential alumni network? Sure.

For example, ND doesn't have a great engineering program... but the ability to do engineering or business (or a combination) at ND was really appealing for someone in my shoes who didn't know exactly what they wanted to do going into college. Engineering at Dartmouth was a joke, and Cornell engineering was the best in the Ivy League but Ithaca and that campus sucked something awful. That's how someone in my shoes ends up not going Ivy League... and that's also how someone EASILY ends up choosing Stanford/etc. over an Ivy.

To be clear, I put Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford on a tier above ND. I really do. I do not put ND/Duke/Vandy appreciably behind Cornell/Columbia/Brown/etc. There is no or little gap there at all. In fact, I had two teammates choose Williams College over Harvard because, in their mind, it was simply better as a school. And there is actually a lot of data to kind of back that up, even if Williams doesn't have the worldwide name recognition of Harvard. Our class president and one of my multi-sport teammates chose MIT (for business too... not engineering) over all the Ivies just because. It's really quite common for someone to go somewhere else besides almighty Harvard. I guess these schools just don't have the mystique to those who have seriously considered their pros/cons up close.

At the end of the day you have to choose what's best for your desires/needs. For kids who expect to get into Ivies and have a full board of options, it's really not uncommon for them to go somewhere else that better fits what they want to get out of college. Happens all the time. Trying to paint any decision besides Harvard as a bad one is simply ignorant.

 

[Monk]

He can play football (actually play, not sit on the practice squad like he most likely will do at Notre Dame) and get one of the finest educations the world offers. Coming to Notre Dame would be a childish decision, imo. Based off of some hope that he could pull off a "Rudy" story and suit up for the team. The cost… a lifetime of being an Ivy league graduate.

Sacrificing that so he can play Rudy is silly, imo.

Without someone trying to "play Rudy", there would have never been a Rudy. Just saying.

 

[IrishLax]

Their economics major is the highest enrollment in their school, dick. All people looking for Harvard for business get an economics degree (for the most part) then apply for Harvard Business School (mba, etc). Which is universally seen as the best graduate business program in the world.

That's not an undergraduate business degree, is it? No, it's economics. And the particulars of that degree are very different from a true undergraduate business degree in something like marketing, accounting, finance, etc.

There's a reason so many people go to Penn for Wharton's undergraduate program over Harvard.

I did bring facts, and screw you, dude. I never said anything offensive or incorrect. If you don't like what I have to say, then there is no reason to be confrontational about it. I didn't come at you with ill intent, you are being the aggressor here.

Put me on ignore, simply cool your jets or just keep being a jerk and i'll just leave the thread so you can carry on with your angry tirade. Either way, it's sunny and Friday… i'm not going to spend the day arguing with you.

Thank you for leaving the thread with inaccurate and illogical viewpoints.

 

[IrishLax]

I turned down 2 Ivies (where I would have played football) as well in favor of ND, where I am just a normal student. Best decision I've ever made and it's not close. That said, I can't in good conscience argue that ND is on the same level academically/influentially/reputationally (is that a word?) as any of the Ivies, including Cornell. There are programs at ND that are better than their counterparts at Harvard (theology comes to mind) but in terms of the overall school, the argument is a non-starter.

That said, saying the kid should turn down ND and go to Harvard no questions asked is equally a non-starter. While ND isn't on the same level as HYP, it is still an elite institution that provides unbelievable opportunities to its alumni. Like someone said, it's not like he's turning down Harvard for Miss St. If this kid thinks ND is a better fit for him socially/athletically/etc. then he should come to ND.

Finally, whoever grouped ND and Stanford together and said they don't offer the same opportunities as HYP is wrong. Stanford is in the elite of the elite schools in this country, along with Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT. It offers every bit the academic challenge, reputation, and prestige that the top Ivies do.

This. All of this. Wish I could've said this as clearly and concisely with less rhetoric.

(Although, I wasn't really all that impressed with Cornell on a lot of levels. Almost didn't even seem Ivy-ish. Also, Brown rubbed me the wrong way, but that's a discussion for another time and place).

 

[woolybug25]

They aren't inaccurate nor illogical. They're just not YOUR opinions. There is a difference.

The reality is the kid has an offer to Harvard. So it sounds like we agree there.

Other than that… have fun in this thread, Lax. I really have no desire to go down a negative road here. Life is far too good right now to get hung up in an internet fight about whether a kid should choose ND over Harvard. I think it's silly, but you don't have to and i'm not interested in trying to convince you either.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

This thread just got unreadable.

 

[gkIrish]

This. All of this. Wish I could've said this as clearly and concisely with less rhetoric.

(Although, I wasn't really all that impressed with Cornell on a lot of levels. Almost didn't even seem Ivy-ish. Also, Brown rubbed me the wrong way, but that's a discussion for another time and place).

Yeah Brown kind of sucked. Providence was a decent town but the people at Brown made me want to puke. Dartmouth is also in the middle of nowhere and no one cares if you went to Dartmouth. I visited Williams but the liberal arts education wasn't for me.

 

[NDdomer2]

 

[WestCoast]

I turned down two Ivys. This one girl Ivy Smith wanted me bad in high school, but she was kinda kookie. So we made out, then I dumped her.

This other time, this nurse offers me an Ivy and I'm like, no way lady, I ain't into no kookie drugs. So we made out, then I dumped her. Course I woke up in a hopsital bed and my pants were gone. So I guess she got me there.

 

[IrishLax]

They aren't inaccurate nor illogical. They're just not YOUR opinions. There is a difference.

The reality is the kid has an offer to Harvard. So it sounds like we agree there.

Other than that… have fun in this thread, Lax. I really have no desire to go down a negative road here. Life is far too good right now to get hung up in an internet fight about whether a kid should choose ND over Harvard. I think it's silly, but you don't have to and i'm not interested in trying to convince you either.

I thought you already left?