A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[wizards8507]

I think his existence will ultimately be the end of Petyr Baelish's plans (and probably Baelish).

Very possible, but Harry the Heir still stands to inherit the Vale when Sweetrobin dies.

Also, the Eyrie has to fall, right? They've said "the Eyrie is impregnable" far too many times for it not to.

 

[Corry]

I didn't like how the Jon Snow interagtion happened before the Wildings attacked. In the books he gets woken up and taken down the wall, and thrown in the ice cells. I think the show might have Jon become LC before the attacks.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Very possible, but Harry the Heir still stands to inherit the Vale when Sweetrobin dies.

Also, the Eyrie has to fall, right? They've said "the Eyrie is impregnable" far too many times for it not to.

Ha! Maybe so. The way I see it, Robin has to meet an accident, Sansa has to marry Harry, who has to have an accident, and Sansa marries Baelish. The North melts into anarchy so that the men of the Vale can retake it. Then Rickon spoils everything by showing up. So, a lot of events to cover.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Speaking of Harry the Heir and Sansa, I thought this was one of the most believable and well-sourced theories I've read:

(Spoilers All) The Tourney at Ashford and Sansa's future husband : asoiaf

 

[wizards8507]

Ha! Maybe so. The way I see it, Robin has to meet an accident, Sansa has to marry Harry, who has to have an accident, and Sansa marries Baelish. The North melts into anarchy so that the men of the Vale can retake it. Then Rickon spoils everything by showing up. So, a lot of events to cover.

The men of the Vale won't be successful in the north anytime soon. I'm re-reading ADWD right now and Asha's chapters paint a bleak picture of how the southron armies are holding up in the weather. They're down to cannibalism and human sacrifice.

 

[Emcee77]

Gah, these conversations just make me want Winds of Winter to come out already.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Gah, these conversations just make me want Winds of Winter to come out already.

I've still got the hope of a sweet summer child that it could be out by Christmastime.

 

[wizards8507]

I've still got the hope of a sweet summer child that it could be out by Christmastime.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

The Mercy chapter and his blog on April 1 give me a lot of hope.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

The men of the Vale won't be successful in the north anytime soon. I'm re-reading ADWD right now and Asha's chapters paint a bleak picture of how the southron armies are holding up in the weather. They're down to cannibalism and human sacrifice.

Oh, I have no real confidence in my prediction. It's much too... predictable.

I've been holding off re-reading the last two books because I think it would just piss me off more that I have to wait another decade for the last book to come out. But, man, with everyone at work talking about the TV series I'm dying to dive back into the story.

 

[Emcee77]

I just ran across this:

BBC News - Game of Thrones: The cult French novel that inspired George RR Martin

Maybe these books are worth checking out. When the TV series starts, I'm always looking for a way to get an additional Game of Thrones fix between episodes. Then, once the season ends, I can finally forget about GRRM for a while. lol.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I just ran across this:

BBC News - Game of Thrones: The cult French novel that inspired George RR Martin

Maybe these books are worth checking out. When the TV series starts, I'm always looking for a way to get an additional Game of Thrones fix between episodes. Then, once the season ends, I can finally forget about GRRM for a while. lol.

Thanks! I'm gonna be all over this.

 

[returnofthemack]

Did the Inn scene seem odd to any book readers? I figured they would would show the Hound being injured in some way so that the infection doesn't come off as completely random, but I don't recall the Hound getting hurt at all in the scene.

I think he may have been hit in the back. It may not have broken his mail but it's right before he gets knocked down I think (1 guy in front, 1 in back).

 

[wizards8507]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on Margaery Tyrell in the book versus the show. In the book I get the feeling that she's the ultra pure/innocent foil to Cersei's awfulness who manages to thwart Cersei at every turn just because Cersei can't get out of her own way. In the shows I feel like she much more shrewd and is well aware of the role she's playing in the "game of thrones."

 

[IrishLion]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on Margaery Tyrell in the book versus the show. In the book I get the feeling that she's the ultra pure/innocent foil to Cersei's awfulness who manages to thwart Cersei at every turn just because Cersei can't get out of her own way. In the shows I feel like she much more shrewd and is well aware of the role she's playing in the "game of thrones."

I would need to reread ADwD to make a real argument, but didn't it turn out that Margaery was actually fooling around with her cousins and the knights? Idk if I would consider "Book Margaery" to be innocent in light of things, and she's too close to the Queen of Thorns to not know what her role is. It just feels like much of the action around her role in things is hidden from the reader since the focus must be on Cersei in the books, whereas the show can't keep her in the background like that. In the show, she has to be shown actively plotting alongside her grandmother, otherwise the scandal loses its impact in the eyes of the non-readers.

 

[wizards8507]

I would need to reread ADwD to make a real argument, but didn't it turn out that Margaery was actually fooling around with her cousins and the knights? Idk if I would consider "Book Margaery" to be innocent in light of things, and she's too close to the Queen of Thorns to not know what her role is. It just feels like much of the action around her role in things is hidden from the reader since the focus must be on Cersei in the books, whereas the show can't keep her in the background like that. In the show, she has to be shown actively plotting alongside her grandmother, otherwise the scandal loses its impact in the eyes of the non-readers.

The only evidence that Margaery was actually doing anything was the result of Qyburn's torture and the fact that her maidenhead wasn't intact, but it was repeated several times that she's an avid horse rider and that's likely why. The charges against her were BS concocted by Cersei.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63217-margaery-tyrells-innocence/

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

 

[gkIrish]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on Margaery Tyrell in the book versus the show. In the book I get the feeling that she's the ultra pure/innocent foil to Cersei's awfulness who manages to thwart Cersei at every turn just because Cersei can't get out of her own way. In the shows I feel like she much more shrewd and is well aware of the role she's playing in the "game of thrones."

I feel like the show makes her seem much more important. I don't remember much about her from the books other than being imprisoned temporarily (I think?) and being a secret slut. The show makes her seem more like a "plotter."

 

[wizards8507]

I feel like the show makes her seem much more important. I don't remember much about her from the books other than being imprisoned temporarily (I think?) and being a secret slut. The show makes her seem more like a "plotter."

She's not a secret slut. That's Cersei bullshit.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

 

[gkIrish]

She's not a secret slut. That's Cersei bullshit.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

You sure? I always thought there was truth behind Cersei's accusations but she could never prove it...

 

[IrishLion]

I still don't think she's innocent though... the books seemed to lend evidence that Margaery was plenty aware of the plotting going on with the Queen of Thorns. So even if she wasn't fooling around at night, she's still plot-plot-scheme-scheme. You just don't see it as much in the books because of the focus on Cersei.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

You sure? I always thought there was truth behind Cersei's accusations but she could never prove it...

IIRC, The old Maester said he had been making contraceptives for her.

 

[wizards8507]

You sure? I always thought there was truth behind Cersei's accusations but she could never prove it...

As close to positive as I can be with these books. The "fan community" consensus is overwhelmingly that he's a virgin.

I still don't think she's innocent though... the books seemed to lend evidence that Margaery was plenty aware of the plotting going on with the Queen of Thorns. So even if she wasn't fooling around at night, she's still plot-plot-scheme-scheme. You just don't see it as much in the books because of the focus on Cersei.

When I say "innocent" I mean sexually innocent as it's used in the books. I don't believe that she's completely ignorant of all the Queen of Thorns' plans.

IIRC, The old Maester said he had been making contraceptives for her.

1. He's dead.

2. He was Cersei's pawn and everyone knew that. One theory is that Margaery went to him knowing he'd blab to Cersei and that Cersei would do something stupid. EDIT: When Loras is wounded at Dragonstone, Margaery sends her personal maester to tend to him. If she has a person maester, there's no reason why she's go to Pycelle for moon tea unless it was part of some scheme.

 

[DSully1995]

Very possible, but Harry the Heir still stands to inherit the Vale when Sweetrobin dies.

Also, the Eyrie has to fall, right? They've said "the Eyrie is impregnable" far too many times for it not to.

Don't think it needs to, I feel like it'll be taken from within or something, which maintains impregnability but makes it worthless really

 

[IrishLion]

When I say "innocent" I mean sexually innocent as it's used in the books. I don't believe that she's completely ignorant of all the Queen of Thorns' plans.

I don't understand your initial post then lol. It mentioned her being more aware of her role in the "game of thrones" in the show than in the books (where you say she seems more innocent and pure). However, in the books, she's just as aware of her role.

 

[DSully1995]

I saw somewhere George saying that show margery is where book margery is headed, just not there yet.

Another point is we only see margery through cersei's eyes. The scene in the latest episode where margery says joffrey would give her a necklae of sparrow heads is something we can't see due to POV. So she might seem more innocent but it's probably only because we only see the act, ie. her around Tommen trying to influence him.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

IIRC, The old Maester said he had been making contraceptives for her.

The thing is that we don't know if she was using it. The quote was:

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for..."

"I know what moon tea is for."

She could have been getting it for her cousins or handmaidens or it could have some other use. Pycelle would know Cersei knows what moon tea is, so why would he try to say what it's for?

Of course, now Pycelle is dead which changes things up.

 

[wizards8507]

Don't think it needs to, I feel like it'll be taken from within or something, which maintains impregnability but makes it worthless really

By "fall" I didn't necessarily mean physically fall from the sky, but "fall" like "the castle has fallen."

I think it'll be dragonfire.

 

[Emcee77]

I always thought of Margery as someone who was not herself a schemer, but fully complicit in Tyrell scheming. She knew that she had a role to play as the beautiful, pure, innocent, beloved princess, and she played it perfectly. Like virtually everyone in the books, she wants to build a base of power and contend for the throne, and she knows that being a symbol of purity, beauty and compassion for the people is the way for her to do that.

As DSully said, we don't really know how pure or impure she is, as we haven't seen the action from her point of view. But I don't think of her as an innocent, ignorant pawn the way Sansa is; I think of her as someone actively participating in aggrandizing House Tyrell.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

The thing is that we don't know if she was using it. The quote was:



She could have been getting it for her cousins or handmaidens or it could have some other use. Pycelle would know Cersei knows what moon tea is, so why would he try to say what it's for?

Of course, now Pycelle is dead which changes things up.

No disagreement as to the possibilities for the ultimate truth. I was just addressing the layers of evidence which makes the charges against Margaery somewhat plausible.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I always thought of Margery as someone who was not herself a schemer, but fully complicit in Tyrell scheming. She knew that she had a role to play as the beautiful, pure, innocent, beloved princess, and she played it perfectly. Like virtually everyone in the books, she wants to build a base of power and contend for the throne, and she knows that being a symbol of purity, beauty and compassion for the people is the way for her to do that.

As DSully said, we don't really know how pure or impure she is, as we haven't seen the action from her point of view. But I don't think of her as an innocent, ignorant pawn the way Sansa is; I think of her as someone actively participating in aggrandizing House Tyrell.

Yeah the Tyrells are clearly going for a populist angle. There is a scene in the books where Cersei is bitching about all the public adulation they received for bringing food to King's Landing when they had initiated the embargo themselves.