ND Oversold on Kelly?

[Rocket89]

I think the perception shared by Pat is the same for a lot of fans. Personally, I can see how the offseason disasters led to where we are, but I expected the "Next Man In" mentality to show itself, especially given recent recruiting. There is no reason to be sitting here with 3 losses right now. At most, we should have the OU loss, and be preparing for the last two games and a possible BCS game. That is a sign of inconsistent leadership.

Does not compute.

 

[ACamp1900]

IMO there is no debate. BK needs to do better. However, BK>>>>Weis.


There is no rational comparison to be made between the two.

The bolded is where I'm at... Though I do think there are some valid comparisons...

 

[wizards8507]

Smh...this team is one year removed from an undefeated regular season and trip to the national championship game and people are seriously comparing BK to Weis? C'mon.

See below. Fact is, we SHOULDN'T have been "undefeated with a trip to the NCG" last season. We were there because of a blown call in the Pitt game, a kind-of-maybe goal-line stand against Stanford, and a "goal line stand" against USC that was really just a dropped ball. If two of those three plays go the other way, we're 10-2 and looking at a beat down in a non-Championship BCS bowl, which is exactly the same "peak" as Charlie had.

Nice quote...but it doesn't apply.

That PITT game last year? Where we actually shoud've been flagged for two men wearing the same number? That's not "prepared"

 

[phgreek]

Please you have got to be kidding me. You have to remember this is our what, 2nd loss in November in four years. The teams that played for Weis utterly collapsed in the 2nd half of the year. He couldn't beat USC, lost to Syracuse on Senior night, had Travis Thomas starting at LB, couldn't develop offensive line talent (See Sam Young), and on and on. This program is better off with Kelly. This loss sucks, all three losses suck because they could have easily been wins had it not been for stupid mistakes. But if you cannot see a difference in the team on the field now compared to 6 years ago, let alone the recruiting, you need to get your eyes checked.

AMEN...

I liked Charlie...thought he was treated pretty poorly. But the expectations, early season performance, followed by the collapse was awful...it was like football's equivalent to "blue balls"...

This defense is NOT like Weis defenses...that is, by far, the silliest thing I've seen anyone with football credibility say in a decade...GO WATCH SOME OLD FILM. D backs were literally spinning around in circles and running into one another...and more often than not we were beaten SO BADLY the ND defender wasn't in the TV frame with the receiver...seriously there were 10-15 yard holes in our D, and we still couldn't shut it down over the top...it was the bend and break defense...every game was a track meet. Syracuse, UConn, Pitt (the Stache Pitt)...the list goes on.

Also...more often than not ND wins games that are tight...not CW teams...

Accountability this year...I agree that's a problem for the entire team...some current players did not lead...could not lead because their own performances left them devoid of credibility to lead...

I see problems with this team...I see challenges that presented themselves since last season you simply can't brush off...I have not been easy on this team in my criticisms...but at the same time you'd have be really unplugged from the process to expect that the convergence of all of this sh!t would NOT result in some Ls....still, this team did not get beat...they have beaten themselves...

Coach accountability...sure...easy to say...harder to understand...it starts by asking a couple simple questions.

1) Is the Program (not one team) better...YES
2) Is the Future (recruiting) set up to provide the basis for success...Yes
3) Are kids being developed...for the most part yes...I point to Allen, B smith, H smith, Teo, Riddick, Goodman, Golic and more generally...Oline, Dline. These are guys chuck had, and were not growing that I could see...Allen had very little time with the staff...but ran differently before he got hurt in '10...super impressed with him.
4) Depth...I thought yes, but given this year...no, still needs work on D-line...a little on o line, and a good bit at middle linebacker.

Coaching staff looks good to me on strictly football terms...not to mention all the other things it takes to lead an ND program.

 

[wizards8507]

IMO there is no debate. BK needs to do better. However, BK>>>>Weis.

I was at ND from 2006-2010. We lost to Navy AT HOME twice. We went 3-9 one year. 6-6 TWO other seasons. Got DESTROYED in a BCS game against a team not named Alabama. NO PLAYER DEVELOPMENT.

There is no rational comparison to be made between the two.

The bolded is where I'm at... Though I do think there are some valid comparisons...

I'll go with "BK>Weis" at this point. I'm just not sold that he's ">>>>" Weis.

 

[anarin]

Did I just read that Kelly is basically Weis only luckier?

 

[wizards8507]

Did I just read that Kelly is basically Weis only luckier?

No. You read that people think Kelly is the next coming and assign wonderful coaching attributes to him that simply don't play out in the statistics.

 

[dre1919]

Personally, I think we are, with Coach Kelly, where we always are. A once elite program that is trying to get back to that position (but since our kids actually have to go to class and learn that remains hard) with an above average coach. Not an elite coach, but an above average one. Elite coaches...the Nick Saban's, Bob Stoops, Urban Meyer's of the world are smart enough to know that coming here and coaching is a losing shell game in the modern college football landscape.

The entrance requirements, the lack of JUCO transfers allowed, going to hard classes, etc. makes it twice as hard to compete and excel than it does at an Ohio State, USC or Florida. So, when these elite coaches are looking for where their next BCS Championship trophy will be hoisted it sure as hell ain't Notre Dame.

Would it be a challenge? Sure. But in the end, why would someone like Stoops, Meyer or Saban ever feel the need for a challenge (and potential failure) like that? Better to create a lasting dynasty somewhere else. So, we get left with the "other guys"...coaches who are either woefully miscast (Willingham) or over valued on their experience (Weis). The best we have is those who are good...not great or elite...but good (Kelly).

Unfortunately, we as fans are going to have to get used to it because the next great elite coach isn't walking through that door and won't be until Notre Dame becomes just another football factory and spring board to the NFL's millions. For those who want their kid educated with a prestigious degree and PERHAPS a chance at NFL stardom, we're the right fit. That, unfortunately, doesn't play into the plans and future's of the most elite coaches in the country.

 

[pumpdog20]

It is not a comparison, but you can't give Kelly a pass for taking a team to the NCG. Heck, Chizik took a team and won one with a special player. Then look at what he followed it up with. If you don't have accountability in your program, and ask tough questions, then how do you continue to evolve? This team has underachieved, and has not gotten better as the season has continued. All teams deal with injuries, and I understand that to be a part of it...and I understand the schedule and player development argument...but you can't sit there and say that you are satisfied with where we are right now. If you are, then I guess you are willing to accept being an average program (not you personally,but in general).

Chizik went 8-5 and 3-9 after his NC appearance and to be honest other than that one year, the Chiz never really proved himself. We're 7-3 with a good possibility of going 9-4. I'll take it, after what we've been through this year. Kelly has proven to be nothing but a winner, everywhere he's been, including here. I understand it is year 4 of the regime, but it's really only year 2 with the super recruiting classes (the incoming class and the current freshman one). The needle is pointing up my friend. The reason we lack depth is because Kelly's first class was barely hung on to, and it took a couple of years to show recruits that they can win here.

If we could only get out of the shotgun with short/goal to go, I'd be fine:smilewink

 

[Rocket89]

I'm just questioning all these blind Kelly fans, I'm not saying that Weis is a better coach. He clearly has a disconnect with college players.


Kelly hasn't won jack. Neither did Weis. At the end of the day, I'm still waiting for that BCS win or ring

You're not questioning blind Kelly fans. Judging a coach on his championship rings sounds nice and it lets you pound your chest. That's fine. Go right ahead.

I'm not sure some people understand what's really important about the Brian Kelly era at Notre Dame. We've romanticized the notion that if a coach can't win the big one by year three or four that it's a lost cause. So much so, as we see here, that people can't (or more appropriately won't) distinguish between a bad coach like Weis and a good coach like Kelly.

I've said this since day one about Kelly: He will not win a national title at Notre Dame. But that doesn't mean he won't be successful in South Bend.

This program has been starving for stability. No, it's not the fairy tale story but if Kelly can string together several seasons without the bottom falling out---as it did with the previous three coaches---it will be a huge, huge, huge win for the program. We can poo poo it all we want but Kelly has rebuilt this program into something respectable and it's bigger than the current 7-3 record.

We always get myopic after losses, and ND fans are the worst, but this club can still go 9-4 with a bowl win. Should we be happy with that? Maybe not, but when the sane ones among us had us going 9-3 or 8-4 with Rees at QB I certainly don't see the need to start jumping off a cliff.

I'm a blind fan of Notre Dame football, not Brian Kelly. Saying he hasn't won a title and therefore he's like Weis is incredibly inane. If Kelly were to leave ND right now the job would be so much more attractive to prospective candidates and that's what is REALLY important if at some point it turns out that Kelly couldn't get us over the hump and win a title.

 

[anarin]

No. You read that people think Kelly is the next coming and assign wonderful coaching attributes to him that simply don't play out in the statistics.

So they should fire him and bring in someone else?

 

[ThePiombino]

See below. Fact is, we SHOULDN'T have been "undefeated with a trip to the NCG" last season. We were there because of a blown call in the Pitt game, a kind-of-maybe goal-line stand against Stanford, and a "goal line stand" against USC that was really just a dropped ball. If two of those three plays go the other way, we're 10-2 and looking at a beat down in a non-Championship BCS bowl, which is exactly the same "peak" as Charlie had.

Not a single one of those lucky plays you mentioned would have guaranteed victories for the opposition. Pitt would have had a first down, they would not have been awarded a field goal, however. Stanford would have sent the game into another OT, assuming the extra point and barring a failed 2-pt conversion. SC game we won by more than a score, so that one makes no sense at all. Get your head outta your @$$

 

[NDohio]

It is not a comparison, but you can't give Kelly a pass for taking a team to the NCG. Heck, Chizik took a team and won one with a special player.

But ND's season was not built around one player. Sure Teo was a fantastic player and received a lot of the spotlight, but that team last year was a true team. A program that isn't moving in the right direction would have absolutely folded after losing their starting QB before the season even starts. I hate the three losses we have had, but I am not surprised we have three losses.

Then look at what he followed it up with. If you don't have accountability in your program, and ask tough questions, then how do you continue to evolve? This team has underachieved, and has not gotten better as the season has continued.

After the Michigan game, I was worrying about having a winning season. To say this team hasn't improved is not accurate. Saturday sucked. But a lot of what happened Saturday had to do with who didn't play. That defense was decimated with injuries and the Tuitt .....

All teams deal with injuries, and I understand that to be a part of it...and I understand the schedule and player development argument...but you can't sit there and say that you are satisfied with where we are right now. If you are, then I guess you are willing to accept being an average program (not you personally,but in general).

I am not at all satisfied with where this season is. I hate that almost an entire recruiting class has transferred/quit/bombed. But, I look at the young talent on this team, I look at having our QB back next year, I see the current recruiting class being put together, and I feel the difference in how the program is developing and cannot simply state that BK is the problem.

Are there areas of improvement for the coaching staff? Absolutely. But that is the case for every coaching staff in college football except one. BK is building a program and I will take that over a one hit wonder with a National Title and then back to mediocrity.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I think the perception shared by Pat is the same for a lot of fans. Personally, I can see how the offseason disasters led to where we are, but I expected the "Next Man In" mentality to show itself, especially given recent recruiting. There is no reason to be sitting here with 3 losses right now. At most, we should have the OU loss, and be preparing for the last two games and a possible BCS game. That is a sign of inconsistent leadership.

 

[ACamp1900]

Kelly is basically Willingham...


(Drops mic, leaves room and watches inferno from outside safety)

 

[BleedBlueGold]

BK has done more for this program behind that scenes than anyone could have asked for. The needle is pointing up. You don't sell the stock when the needle is pointing up.

My personal thought process has been a year by year analysis of the team as a whole. I've pretty much settled on waiting until the end result of year 6. People may claim that it shouldn't take that long, but I personally think ND football was buried in the ice age and it's taken BK a lot longer than expected to chip away at the ice. There's no reason he can't get ND football back to a 10+ season year in and year out w/ the occasional run. I'm not expecting undefeated seasons every year. I'm even ok with the mediocre year here and there. But to think that BK isn't a good coach or isn't getting the job done is asinine. Seriously, look at this program as a whole and compare it to what it was when he first took over.

 

[Wild Bill]

See below. Fact is, we SHOULDN'T have been "undefeated with a trip to the NCG" last season. We were there because of a blown call in the Pitt game, a kind-of-maybe goal-line stand against Stanford, and a "goal line stand" against USC that was really just a dropped ball. If two of those three plays go the other way, we're 10-2 and looking at a beat down in a non-Championship BCS bowl, which is exactly the same "peak" as Charlie had.

We had less talent and won. Isn't that an argument in Kelly's favor?

Maybe you have a point with the Pitt game, but we won. A win is a win.

Stanford didn't score. Even if they did score, it would have been tied.

We beat USC by nine. We still win if he catches the ball.

 

[kmoose]

If you don't have accountability in your program, and ask tough questions, then how do you continue to evolve?

You ask those tough questions, and demand accountability for them, at the right time. At the end of the season, Swarbrick will sit down with Kelly and determine where the team is at, and where it is headed. Then Swarbrick will decide the question of accountability. THAT'S how you evolve; you don't evolve by reacting emotionally to each and every game.

This team has underachieved, and has not gotten better as the season has continued. All teams deal with injuries, and I understand that to be a part of it...and I understand the schedule and player development argument...but you can't sit there and say that you are satisfied with where we are right now. If you are, then I guess you are willing to accept being an average program (not you personally,but in general).

This is what strictly emotional thinking gets you. How has this team underacheived? Because YOU thought (unrealistically) that this team WOULD win 10+ games this year? It's not possible that YOU could have been wrong about where the team was at, or that YOU jumped the gun on "being back", is it? Since we've eliminated that as an option, then the only option left is that the team has underacheived, right? MOST teams deal with significant injuries (remember that ND was incredibly lucky, injury-wise, last year), that is correct. What makes this year's ND squad somewhat different is the sheer NUMBER and SEVERITY of injuries that we have sustained.

Another possibility that your emotionally charged thinking is blind to is this: It's very possible to say that you are satisfied with where the team is at, at this moment in time, given what they have gone through this season, but NOT be satisfied with them always playing at this level. It's absolutely reasonable to say that we are proud of the kids for battling their way through adversity this year, but still expect that they will be a much better team, once everyone is healthy/eligible again.


There's nothing wrong with being passionate about your team. Where things go wrong for people is when they allow that passion and emotion to overrule logic. It's a simple, yet common, thinking trap that almost everyone falls into, at some point or another in their life.

 

[phork]

IMO there is no debate. BK needs to do better. However, BK>>>>Weis.

I was at ND from 2006-2010. We lost to Navy AT HOME twice. We went 3-9 one year. 6-6 TWO other seasons. Got DESTROYED in a BCS game against a team not named Alabama. NO PLAYER DEVELOPMENT.

There is no rational comparison to be made between the two.

Keep in mind the Willingham effect. Weis won with that was left of Willinghams recruits and then had a bare pantry come the 3-9 season. Personally the 3-9 season was lost anyways. Put in Clausen and let it roll. I think it was the best thing at the time.

I think this team was better than OU and certainly Michigan. Right now could realistically be sitting here with one loss.

Really? Could realistically be sitting here with 8 losses as well (Only counting 1 score games). You can't play that game without looking the other way.

Kelly went 12-0 and if OSU hadn't made a terrible decision, he would have won a national championship. We have had a really tough season injury-wise (Weis never had to deal with this many injuries) and lost our QB. If the timing was better with EG, Kiel wouldn't have transferred either, so spare me the lack of backup QB argument.

For me, Kelly gets another season. If we don't go at least 10-3 next year, I'll call for his head.

Start calling now. I'll give you all my vbucks if ND is 10-3 next year.

The bolded is where I'm at... Though I do think there are some valid comparisons...

Agreed.

See below. Fact is, we SHOULDN'T have been "undefeated with a trip to the NCG" last season. We were there because of a blown call in the Pitt game, a kind-of-maybe goal-line stand against Stanford, and a "goal line stand" against USC that was really just a dropped ball. If two of those three plays go the other way, we're 10-2 and looking at a beat down in a non-Championship BCS bowl, which is exactly the same "peak" as Charlie had.

I disagree with the bolded. I think we roll someone in a BCS game.

The program is much stronger right now than under Weis. If you really don't think so I don't know what to tell you.

I think a lot of folks are just upset that we're not elite yet. That's an entirely different argument.

Here's something to think about with Weis:

HE NEVER BEAT RANKED TEAMS.

ND will never be elite again. That is not negativity that is reality and based on what ND has to deal with that other schools don't. If Kelly stays longer than a couple more years I believe ND will achieve the 8-10 win average and every once in a blue moon when luck is on its side it'll push for a NC. And I'm ok with that. It starts with getting back to pounding the teams you should pound. Navy, Purdue, Pitt. Once that starts happening regularly then I'll be on board.

Until then I am just going to enjoy the games, even as maddening as the last one was.

 

[ACamp1900]

BK has done more for this program behind that scenes than anyone could have asked for. The needle is pointing up. You don't sell the stock when the needle is pointing up.

My personal thought process has been a year by year analysis of the team as a whole. I've pretty much settled on waiting until the end result of year 6. People may claim that it shouldn't take that long, but I personally think ND football was buried in the ice age and it's taken BK a lot longer than expected to chip away at the ice. There's no reason he can't get ND football back to a 10+ season year in and year out w/ the occasional run. I'm not expecting undefeated seasons every year. I'm even ok with the mediocre year here and there. But to think that BK isn't a good coach or isn't getting the job done is asinine. Seriously, look at this program as a whole and compare it to what it was when he first took over.

This. As frustrating as it is... If the schedule next year turns out how we all think, good freaking luck with that... I hope they can keep recruiting momentum going, get a stud or two on defense, and get ready for year six... I'd be stunned if next season appeases the angry masses. ( In fairness I was really taken off guard last season so...)

 

[Wild Bill]

ND will never be elite again. That is not negativity that is reality and based on what ND has to deal with that other schools don't. If Kelly stays longer than a couple more years I believe ND will achieve the 8-10 win average and every once in a blue moon when luck is on its side it'll push for a NC. And I'm ok with that. It starts with getting back to pounding the teams you should pound. Navy, Purdue, Pitt. Once that starts happening regularly then I'll be on board.

Until then I am just going to enjoy the games, even as maddening as the last one was.

Do you consider Stanford elite right now? I do, and I can't see any reason why they can get it done and ND cannot.

 

[phgreek]

Kelly is basically Willingham...


(Drops mic, leaves room and watches inferno from outside safety)

...Stanford girls golf should be happy THEY have depth then...

 

[CarrollVermin]

I knew you would eventually see things my way...ha.

 

[ACamp1900]

Considering the way ND recruits there is no reason ND can't be elite again... Keep the studs you land... And get a few more here and there on defense,... That's the difference right now....

Playing a bat sh1t crazy schedule every year is another aspect that must change...

 

[wizards8507]

Not a single one of those lucky plays you mentioned would have guaranteed victories for the opposition. Pitt would have had a first down, they would not have been awarded a field goal, however. Stanford would have sent the game into another OT, assuming the extra point and barring a failed 2-pt conversion. SC game we won by more than a score, so that one makes no sense at all. Get your head outta your @$$

I never said those plays would have guaranteed victories for the opposition. I'm saying they COULD have led to victories for the opposition. That's also why I said "IF two of those three went the other way..." not "all three SHOULD have gone the other way."

Pitt would have been awarded a first down and the odds that they missed another field goal from that distance (or even closer, given that they had three more snaps to advance) is miniscule. I can't listen to any argument saying that win was legitimate when this photo exists:

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/collegefootball/ndsamejerseys.jpg

Your point is well received about Stanford but, once again, if we were a super duper NCG-caliber team, we wouldn't have been winning games on what amounted to 50-50 coin-toss plays.

Maybe you have a point with the Pitt game, but we won. A win is a win.

Yes, "a win is a win" as far as our record is concerned. But it's also fair to evaluate a COACH based on more than win-loss record. A pitcher in baseball gets the "win" if he leaves in the top of the 6th after giving up 10 runs, so long as his team scored 11+. You can still say "the pitcher sucked today," even though "a win is a win."

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

The bolded is where I'm at... Though I do think there are some valid comparisons...

Ditto. There are excuses, but (1) the need for excuses is getting old, and (2) the excuses only explain so much. Things like play calling can't be explained away by excuses.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

Considering the way ND recruits there is no reason ND can't be elite again... Keep the studs you land... And get a few more here and there on defense,... That's the difference right now....

Playing a bat sh1t crazy schedule every year is another aspect that must change...

i keep reading your posts and agreeing. this is a first.

 

[ACamp1900]

i keep reading your posts and agreeing. this is a first.

How does it feel to be on the correct side of an issue for once?

 

[CarrollVermin]

You ask those tough questions, and demand accountability for them, at the right time. At the end of the season, Swarbrick will sit down with Kelly and determine where the team is at, and where it is headed. Then Swarbrick will decide the question of accountability. THAT'S how you evolve; you don't evolve by reacting emotionally to each and every game.



This is what strictly emotional thinking gets you. How has this team underacheived? Because YOU thought (unrealistically) that this team WOULD win 10+ games this year? It's not possible that YOU could have been wrong about where the team was at, or that YOU jumped the gun on "being back", is it? Since we've eliminated that as an option, then the only option left is that the team has underacheived, right? MOST teams deal with significant injuries (remember that ND was incredibly lucky, injury-wise, last year), that is correct. What makes this year's ND squad somewhat different is the sheer NUMBER and SEVERITY of injuries that we have sustained.

Another possibility that your emotionally charged thinking is blind to is this: It's very possible to say that you are satisfied with where the team is at, at this moment in time, given what they have gone through this season, but NOT be satisfied with them always playing at this level. It's absolutely reasonable to say that we are proud of the kids for battling their way through adversity this year, but still expect that they will be a much better team, once everyone is healthy/eligible again.


There's nothing wrong with being passionate about your team. Where things go wrong for people is when they allow that passion and emotion to overrule logic. It's a simple, yet common, thinking trap that almost everyone falls into, at some point or another in their life.

I would agree with your post almost fully. But I do want to say, and say honestly, that I am not coming at this from an emotionally charged position. I was emotional, and just as upset as most people on here, on Saturday night. That passed.

I am glad that you asked about my expectations of Kelly coming into the season. With EG, I thought this team was at 10 wins, and the BCS. Without, I adjusted it to 8. So the expectation is pretty well aligned with performance thus far. We have an opportunity to pick up the 8th win over the course of the last two games. So, they are in line with where I expected.

My original intent behind the thread was to ask if 8 wins was enough for a man that came in promising championships and BCS appearances. The first year was a throw-away year. Year two, with the opening two losses became a throw-away year. Now, going into the last two games of the season, this is also a throw-away year. So 3 of 4 seasons have been disappointments. I can understand the first two...bad cupboard, new system, change culture. But in year 4, that should not be the case. If you are having so many people leave the program, then that is an endemic problem that needs to be examined and addressed. Depth issues in year four need to be examined and addressed. I guess that is the point I was trying to make initially, before it got hijacked with recent events.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

ND will never be elite again. That is not negativity that is reality and based on what ND has to deal with that other schools don't. If Kelly stays longer than a couple more years I believe ND will achieve the 8-10 win average and every once in a blue moon when luck is on its side it'll push for a NC. And I'm ok with that. It starts with getting back to pounding the teams you should pound. Navy, Purdue, Pitt. Once that starts happening regularly then I'll be on board.

Until then I am just going to enjoy the games, even as maddening as the last one was.

i'm with you on the bolded portion. i still want to believe we can be elite on the regular, though it's unlikely.